No bailout deal yet for Greece as talks get bogged down

[webfact]

No bailout deal yet for Greece as talks get bogged down
DEREK GATOPOULOS, Associated Press
RAF CASERT, Associated Press

BRUSSELS (AP) — Crucial talks between Greece and its creditors to keep the country solvent and within the euro got bogged down again Wednesday amid differences over what kind of reforms the country should make in exchange for loans.

The impasse forced eurozone finance ministers to cut short a meeting, which they plan to resume Thursday. Concern over the lack of progress weighed on financial markets, with stock indexes falling in the U.S., where trading was still open.

Earlier in the day, Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras held long talks with key creditors but bickered again over what kind of reforms the country should make in return for much-needed loans.

Greece has promised mainly tax increases to achieve budget savings, whereas the International Monetary Fund would like more spending cuts. Tsipras rejected the creditors' new suggestions, saying they put both sides further away from a deal.

"The Greek side is unable to agree on such a course," a Greek government official said after Tsipras assessed the proposals, which included fresh cuts in public sector payrolls and a timetable to scrap a pension safety net fund.

"These are very tough negotiations," the Greek official said. "But there is a common will to get somewhere." The official spoke only on condition of anonymity because the talks were ongoing.

Wednesday's finance ministers' meeting was meant to iron out the details on the reforms in time for EU leaders to approve them at a summit they will hold Thursday. Now they will meet again only hours before the summit.

After the finance ministers broke up their meeting, Tsipras again went into meetings with European and IMF top officials.

Greece has a 1.6 billion euro ($1.8 billion) debt to pay on Tuesday which it cannot afford unless the creditors unfreeze 7.2 billion euros (8.1 billion dollars) in bailout money.

A Greek exit from the euro would be hugely painful for the country. Some experts say it could be manageable for Europe and the world economy, but that remains unclear.

The latest disagreement weighed on the Athens Stock Exchange, which earlier closed down 1.8 percent after big gains the previous two days. Government bond yields in Greece, Spain and Portugal rose, an indication of investor concern.

Elected on an anti-bailout platform in January, Tsipras' left-wing Syriza party had promised to scrap all austerity measures and demand forgiveness on a chunk of the country's bailout debt. Tsipras has had to backtrack partly on those pledges and now could have trouble persuading party lawmakers to back a new deal, which would have to be approved by Monday night.

Athens was forced into concessions by a punishing debt repayment schedule and an economy hammered by uncertainty: A return to mild recession, ratings downgrades and dramatic outflow of bank deposits that threatened to crash the country's financial system.

Greek Economy Minister Giorgos Stathakis said that so far, all sides had made concessions.

He said Greece had convinced creditors to lower their demands for a primary surplus — the surplus when not counting interest payments on debt. As a result, that should help the Greek economy grow between 1 percent and 1.5 percent this year.

Meanwhile, Greece's banks remained under pressure as Greeks continued to withdraw money amid concerns over the country's financial future.

The European Central Bank had to increase again on Wednesday the amount of emergency credit that Greek banks can draw. The move is meant to help the banks cope with the outflows of cash.

The ECB has increased its support to Greek banks every working day since Friday, a sign of how big a strain the uncertainty is having on the financial system.
___

Lorne Cook contributed from Brussels.


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-06-25

[ukrules]

There's talk about this being an organised maneuver with massive foreign government influence in an attempt to replace the current government by forcing an election, a coup of sorts.

[NeverSure]

"The European Central Bank had to increase again on Wednesday the amount of emergency credit that Greek banks can draw. The move is meant to help the banks cope with the outflows of cash."

What do they mean? Is there a run on Greek banks?

[stevenl]

"The European Central Bank had to increase again on Wednesday the amount of emergency credit that Greek banks can draw. The move is meant to help the banks cope with the outflows of cash."

What do they mean? Is there a run on Greek banks?

Greeks are withdrwaing about 1 billion a day at the moment.

[Credo]

This situation reminds me of that botched execution in the US, where the guy took several hours to die. They ought to do the merciful thing to Greece and either throw them out or forgive them. Greece will never, in the foreseeable future, be able to pay off its debt. The Greek gov't and the people will not learn fiscal responsibility until they are held accountable.

The current situation is a sort of oppressive manner of imposing on the Greeks something that they will resent and fester over for a long time.

Like a petulant child, they must learn on their own. Cut them lose and let them start over. The EU can then concentrate on cleaning up other areas of concern. Greece is not the only problem facing the EU.

[Anthony5]

Did anyone read this the other day?

http://redpilltimes....ean-commission/ IMF “trained” Greek journalists in Washington D.C. to spin stories in favor of IMF and European Commission

In what can only be described as a shocking testimony, Greece’s former representative to the IMF, Panagiotis Roumeliotis, in front of the special parliamentary committee on the Greek debt, said that several Greek journalists were “trained” in Washington D.C. in order to support the positions of the IMF and the European Commission in Greek media.

In Greece, certain individuals who work for the mass media were contracted to conceal the fact that the Greek debt was not sustainable.”

Roumeliotis further testified that IMF head…

“Christine Lagarde and other high officials at the IMF contacted me before my testimony before the committee to remind me that members of the IMF are immune from prosecution.”

[micmichd]

and this woman complains that IMF was called criminal...

[wrinklynomad]

I was struggling to understand what has happened and is happening in Greece and I found an article that gave some of the recent history of plans and problems on deliverry since the last bailout:

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33232074

I found it helpful in also understanding Thai issues re ICAO, Fishing and Trafficking - I quote

The problem therefore is not so much that Greece is incapable of reform or does not know what needs doing, but that it has wasted five years of the bailout without making serious attempts to fix the structural problems that beset the economy - and in many cases it is actually going backwards.

If it had started five years ago, it might have been seeing the results by now as countries like Ireland and Spain have done, but one of the reasons that the Greek bailout has reached another crisis point is that it has hardly started.

It is not the kind of record that is likely to make the countries that are lending Greece all that money trust them with some more.

Patience is not infinite and my experience that is especially true of lenders whether bankers, countries or institutions - financial or otherwise (eg ICAO etc).

[stevenl]

Did anyone read this the other day?

http://redpilltimes....ean-commission/ IMF “trained” Greek journalists in Washington D.C. to spin stories in favor of IMF and European Commission

In what can only be described as a shocking testimony, Greece’s former representative to the IMF, Panagiotis Roumeliotis, in front of the special parliamentary committee on the Greek debt, said that several Greek journalists were “trained” in Washington D.C. in order to support the positions of the IMF and the European Commission in Greek media.

In Greece, certain individuals who work for the mass media were contracted to conceal the fact that the Greek debt was not sustainable.”

Roumeliotis further testified that IMF head…

“Christine Lagarde and other high officials at the IMF contacted me before my testimony before the committee to remind me that members of the IMF are immune from prosecution.”

Sounds like home politics to me. Could be true, but I don't trust the statement.

[Anthony5]

Did anyone read this the other day?

http://redpilltimes....ean-commission/ IMF “trained” Greek journalists in Washington D.C. to spin stories in favor of IMF and European Commission

In what can only be described as a shocking testimony, Greece’s former representative to the IMF, Panagiotis Roumeliotis, in front of the special parliamentary committee on the Greek debt, said that several Greek journalists were “trained” in Washington D.C. in order to support the positions of the IMF and the European Commission in Greek media.

In Greece, certain individuals who work for the mass media were contracted to conceal the fact that the Greek debt was not sustainable.”

Roumeliotis further testified that IMF head…

“Christine Lagarde and other high officials at the IMF contacted me before my testimony before the committee to remind me that members of the IMF are immune from prosecution.”

Sounds like home politics to me. Could be true, but I don't trust the statement.

Did you read the article and know who Mr Panagiotis is? He has by the way named one journalist already who admitted to have attended the IMF seminars, and also named who has the list.What is at work here are circus clowns criminals, and you can be assured that either with or without a deal the circus will not stop on June 30.

Who is Panagiotis Roumeliotis: A Greek economist, academic, banker and politician who served as Minister of National Economy, Minister of Commerce, Member of the European Parliament for PASOK and as Greece’s representative at the International Monetary Fund.

[stevenl]

Did anyone read this the other day?

http://redpilltimes....ean-commission/ IMF “trained” Greek journalists in Washington D.C. to spin stories in favor of IMF and European Commission

In what can only be described as a shocking testimony, Greece’s former representative to the IMF, Panagiotis Roumeliotis, in front of the special parliamentary committee on the Greek debt, said that several Greek journalists were “trained” in Washington D.C. in order to support the positions of the IMF and the European Commission in Greek media.

In Greece, certain individuals who work for the mass media were contracted to conceal the fact that the Greek debt was not sustainable.”

Roumeliotis further testified that IMF head…

“Christine Lagarde and other high officials at the IMF contacted me before my testimony before the committee to remind me that members of the IMF are immune from prosecution.”

Sounds like home politics to me. Could be true, but I don't trust the statement.

Did you read the article and know who Mr Panagiotis is? He has by the way named one journalist already who admitted to have attended the IMF seminars, and also named who has the list.What is at work here are circus clowns criminals, and you can be assured that either with or without a deal the circus will not stop on June 30.

Who is Panagiotis Roumeliotis: A Greek economist, academic, banker and politician who served as Minister of National Economy, Minister of Commerce, Member of the European Parliament for PASOK and as Greece’s representative at the International Monetary Fund.

This is a side issue IMO, but ok:

I have no doubt the IMF organised seminars to give the journalists information on debt issues and how the IMF works, of course they did and do that. Nothing wrong with that as well IMO.

Yes, he is a politician, so this really sounds like home politics to me.

[micmichd]

Taking into account how effective media campaigns against Thai women and expats were, this is not a minor issue.

IMF wants Greece to give up her political sovereignty and hand it over to big money requirements, and obviously now also PASOK politicians get annoyed by this.

[nev]

Why bail them out, Greece should be repossessed and the islands sold off and lift the retirement age to 70 to help pay their debt.

[stevenl]

Taking into account how effective media campaigns against Thai women and expats were, this is not a minor issue.

IMF wants Greece to give up her political sovereignty and hand it over to big money requirements, and obviously now also PASOK politicians get annoyed by this.

Yes, I agree that the requirements are not realistic, and were not realistic anytime. Same as the entrance of Greece to Eurozone was not realistic, but that is all history. I personally also don't agree that austerity is the way forward, but that is a different story.

Greece has accepted the bail out requirements, and has to stick to that. Can't do that or don't want to do that, for me end of story. At the moment these are all pathetic excuses.

[micmichd]

Bailout requirements didn't include Greek domestic policy's surrender to IMF dictatorship.

[Basil B]

"The European Central Bank had to increase again on Wednesday the amount of emergency credit that Greek banks can draw. The move is meant to help the banks cope with the outflows of cash."

What do they mean? Is there a run on Greek banks?

Greeks are withdrwaing about 1 billion a day at the moment.

and do not forget the Greek governments overdraft on the Social Security and Pensions account increasing every day...

[stevenl]

Bailout requirements didn't include Greek domestic policy's surrender to IMF dictatorship.

Requirements included reforms, Greece is at the moment not meeting those, and has in the past 5 years hardly made an effort to meet those.

[micmichd]

Greece provided reforms which also hit the rich, IMF insists on more burden to the poor. That's all.

[stevenl]

Greece provided reforms which also hit the rich, IMF insists on more burden to the poor. That's all.

Sorry, not true.

Greece made the mistake, pressured by a lack of time, to accept conditions it never should have accepted. Now it is suffering because of that, it should have left the Eurozone a long time ago already, or even better, not entered the Eurozone. There is no way out anymore, I don't see how Greece can ever pay back. But on the upside, there will not be much political backlash when Greece leaves or is kicked out of the Euro.

[Ulic]

The Greeks have shown no ability to collect taxes, but a great ability to spend money. No

wonder the Greeks are proposing tax increases while the creditors propose spending cuts.

[Steely Dan]

"The European Central Bank had to increase again on Wednesday the amount of emergency credit that Greek banks can draw. The move is meant to help the banks cope with the outflows of cash."

What do they mean? Is there a run on Greek banks?

Greeks are withdrwaing about 1 billion a day at the moment.

We are seeing a Ponzi scheme unraveling before our eyes. If I were Greek I'd think what the hell take the money and run. Possession of a Euro bank note is nine tenths of the law. It's redeemable anywhere and the Euro central bank will underwrite it, actually what the hell, why not max the credit card to get hands on Euro currency, when it all blows up the Drekma will be worth squat.

In other words this is a game of deception. Greece has defaulted, it can never pay back its creditors, the Eurozone is less concerned by the hit creditors will take than the large risk of a domino effect as the other basket case economies default in turn.

[h90]

There's talk about this being an organised maneuver with massive foreign government influence in an attempt to replace the current government by forcing an election, a coup of sorts.

After Ukraine nothing surprise me anymore......And if it fails everyone is whining again.

[h90]

"The European Central Bank had to increase again on Wednesday the amount of emergency credit that Greek banks can draw. The move is meant to help the banks cope with the outflows of cash."

What do they mean? Is there a run on Greek banks?

Greeks are withdrwaing about 1 billion a day at the moment.

We are seeing a Ponzi scheme unraveling before our eyes. If I were Greek I'd think what the hell take the money and run. Possession of a Euro bank note is nine tenths of the law. It's redeemable anywhere and the Euro central bank will underwrite it, actually what the hell, why not max the credit card to get hands on Euro currency, when it all blows up the Drekma will be worth squat.

In other words this is a game of deception. Greece has defaulted, it can never pay back its creditors, the Eurozone is less concerned by the hit creditors will take than the large risk of a domino effect as the other basket case economies default in turn.

The creditors are already mostly paid, but not complete.

90% of the money Greek got during the last few years was used to pay back the credits at the banks, so basically the EU took over the debt from the banks but market it, like the give Greek a lot money.

[micmichd]

It's not so hard to see.

The banks make the profit, EU gives the credit, and now they want to let the poorer part of Greeks (the majority) bleed for their Ponzi scheme. Then put the blame on the current Greek government and hope they'll lose in a new election.

Next candidate for their game might be Ukraine, IMF has already granted them more than 15bn $ credit.

[Scott]

When the money was lent to the Greek gov't by the banks, were the banks guaranteed payment by the IMF or the EU?

[micmichd]

It's a tricky system.

But finally - if everything else fails - European taxpayers and the poor guarantee, with higher taxes and/or less welfare benefits.

Edited June 25, 2015 by micmichd

[IAMHERE]

Greece should be allowed to fail. It would be good for the EU and other banks to get the experience. If for no other reason other than a learning adventure, let Greece fail.

[Srikcir]

"But there is a common will to get somewhere."

The EU and IMF have the common will and it isn't shared by Greece. The Greek drachma is going to make the Venzuela Bolivar fuerte look valuable.