Grammar Trivia and Pet Peeves

[Linzz]

Language is biological and always changing. In my life time which isn't really that long some rules have gone back and forth twice.

There was a theorist that said the problem is that the lowest common denominator is the one with the most influence on language. Since uneducated people reproduce 3-4 times that of educated people in a few generations intelligence will be bred out.

Language changes take some getting used to and no one is forcing anyone to change, you just have to be tolerant that others have. You will also be dated by your word choices. I had a colleague that would always say "That is a nice Frock". None of the Thai women in the office new what he was talking about. I suggested perhaps using terminology that they might know like shirt. "Frock is the proper term, so why should I change. I am trying to elevate their verbal skills"? I said I thought you were trying to give a compliment and left it at that.

Same with the use of poorly instead of sick. It just isn't utilized that often so if you ask "Do you feel poorly"? No one will really no what you are talking about and might assume that you are asking them if they are poor financially.

Language is more than just vocabulary and grammar it is also filled with cultural context. If you translate words directly they might not have the same understanding. In Thailand if someone comes up to you and says did you eat yet? They are just greeting you. For most westerners that question is usually followed with an invitation to lunch. Here not always.

I had a group of students study in the US for an exchange program. One night a kid hurt his leg but it was just a minor scrape. The leader of the group called the principal and said we need to go to the hospital ... injured his leg. The principal was frantic thinking the student broke his leg. Though they used proper English, the cultural context of word choices implied a greater sense of urgency. In Asia people go to the Hospital for everything. In the US it is usually just for emergencies or serious problems.

I think the overall thing is not to make blanket rules and statements to students. My wife once was in a class and was asked what she did last night. Her reply was "I took a bath." The NES teacher said, No, you took a shower. No one uses the word bath. My wife said " I didn't take a shower, I took a bath in the bathtub."

Or when a teacher says "No one talks like that!!!" Really should say that unless you are absolutely certain. I think stating " I don't use it that way, this is how I would say it..." Leaves room but also encourages students to follow your lead.

Language absolutes are quite futile as language and knowledge of language are always evolving.

You want change? Wait until you see what texting is going to do to the language.

It is the lost common denominator and it is the only time many young people put pen to paper, so to speak.

The abbreviations and acronyms that texters use will, I fear, become the standard language.

Not really. With smart phone text prediction and speak texting that situation is reversing and longhand is now a hallmark of class and expensive technology

[ResandePohm]

The misuse of the word unique always grates. Something or someone cannot be very unique.

The mispronunciation of trait, the last t is silent, is another thing that foolishly peeves me.

It is not easy being pedant.

Its a complete doddle.

What a load of twaddle!

[Saan]

The misuse of the word unique always grates. Something or someone cannot be very unique.

The mispronunciation of trait, the last t is silent, is another thing that foolishly peeves me.

It is not easy being pedant.

3 dictionaries would beg to differ, I know which I will trust. :-)

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/pronunciation/british/trait

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/pronunciation/british/trait

http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/trait

And you can add the Oxford ENGLISH Dictionary to the 'trai' camp. Either pronunciation, is by some, considered acceptable but the use 'treit' was a result of people who did not know how to pronounce the word trying to pronounce it phonetically.

[Linzz]

What really grind's my gear's is the constant use of the word 'Like' by young people.

" It was like so awesome, like"

Boil's my pish.

Btw, I have intentionally used apostrophes incorrectly; I wonder who'll scold me & not see the irony.

Yes it's prevalent today but it's not new. Like man, it's been around since the 60's.Language is a revolving fashion, You don't remember? Like how old are you?

Edited June 26, 2015 by Linzz

[VBF]

Listening to the BBC news every morning I am amazed how the standard of BBC English has gone down. Not necessarily grammatically, but in the way words are used, which grates on my shell like ear. Americanisms: the jury is out on that, a different ball game, take a rain check on that.... and so on and so on, phrases that I assume Americans no longer use. Beginning an answer with the word 'so' is completely unnecessary and sends me up the bloody wall.

Worst of all is vocal fry, mainly indulged in by young American females but lately it seems to have been taken over by some American males. I have heard it being performed by English people recently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEqVgtLQ7qM. This is when I switch over to BBC comedy.

Secondly, the widespread habit of ending a statement as though it was a question, apparently due to watching too many Australian soaps. (upwards inflection).

Innit?

So this is what it's like to be a grumpy old man.

From one grumpy old man to another - "I am in concurrence with the statement you have uttered" (Apologies to Spike Milligan!)

But seriously cooked, you've hit the nail on the head with "vocal fry" - it makes young American women sound like old hags!

The BBC standards of so-called "received" English have indeed plummeted in many ways.

I could go on but my blood pressure would suffer!

[Linzz]

I've noticed that certain grammar errors, if you will, seem to be gaining strength through repetition on web boards and via texting and the like. They are so common it almost seems that they are becoming standard, at least on internet and texting.

Off hand some of the ones I see a lot:

-apostrophe s for plurals: I just had two beer's this morning. Or: I just had two beers' this morning. (I've seen this one on headlines for Thaivisa articles several times)

-then and than used interchangeably: I drank more then he did this morning at breakfast.

- differences between where and were are getting blurrier: We where having a case of beer this morning when the grammar pedant arrived and ordered another case.

These are the ones that annoy me the most, but kind of ridiculous to be bugged about it, I know.

Semi-related side note: Reading Finnegans Wake again and where you have the full fruition of idiosyncratic ways of using English taken to its most extreme ends and then having words from 60 languages dumped into the mix, though if you know Norwegian, German and Italian you are mostly covered and it is still 80-90 percent comprehensible to English speakers who like to try and solve puzzles and mysteries when they read. Now there's a website that allows you to click on nearly every word in the book and get an explanation of any pun or witticism or reference or implication you are missing, no more need consult Mc Hugh's reference guide every second word! And of course you can just make up your meanings, though I supposed for most it's easier to just look at patterns in the stucco or clouds and get your meaning there.

There are a great many other mis-spellings which are commonly made. "Their" going to a party instead of 'they're'.

As for the errant apostrophe, (aka "the Greengrocers' apostrophe", a lot of folk seem to use it if almost any word ends in 's'? Cabbage's; CD's, or confusing BOY's toilet and BOYS' toilet. Which lucky student has his own toilet.?

But as one reader has said, there is a growing tendency to interchange 'then' and 'than'. Is this because of a regional accent or a case of not knowing? "I'd rather have ice cream, then brocolli".

Not only "they're" becomes "their" but mostly is "there"

and quite often on hear, I mean here.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Linzz

[Thakkar]

That that is your position is fair enough. That being said, I'd like to confess that I'm a big fan of the use of "that" in sentences, especially ones that are so long that a "that" could serve almost as a conjunction.

Could that kind of writing be construed as a grammar offence? That depends on one's level of grammar naziism. For the most part, it's just bad writing.

So, yes, I think I agree with you.

T

(That stands for "Thakkar" and not "that)

I said that that "that" that that man wrote should have been underlined.

That's 5 "thats" in a row!

I said that(1),that(2) "that"(3) that(4) that(5) man wrote should have been underlined.

(1)The first "that" is used according to the second definition, as a conjunction. It introduces the quote. Strictly speaking it isn't necessary, but in English it is allowed. For example, either of the following two sentences are correct:

1. I said, "I don't want to do any more riddles."

2. I said that I don't want to do any more riddles.

(2) The second "that" follows the first pronoun definition: "The one designated or implied."

(3) The one it designates is the third "that," which has quotation marks since it references itself (it is used as a noun). This is easier to understand if you imagine another word, like "letter" in its place: I said that, "That letter that..." - except that it was not a letter written, but the word "that."

(4) The fourth "that" is used according to the second definition. This is easier to understand if you replace it with "which": I said that "that 'that' which that man wrote..."

(5) The fifth "that" refers to the man, again using the first definition: "The one designated or implied."

It is correct despite sounding a bit Porky Piggish.

"It is correct despite sounding a bit Porky Piggish."

Indeed. Proof, if proof were needed, that correct grammar does not in itself constitute good writing. Anyone who's read any of The Twilight books, or Fifty Shades of Grey could attest to that (Erm, so I'm told).

Conversely, using correct grammar would nullify this joke:

Question: What's brown and sticky?

Answer: A stick

T

[Patanawet]

From one grumpy old man to another -

I used to be a grumpy old man but now I'm a "GOVE" (sorry, that will only make sense to U.K. readers).

Edited June 26, 2015 by Patanawet

[Patanawet]

From one grumpy old man to another -

I used to be a grumpy old man bit now I'm a "GOVE" (sorry, that'll only make sense to U.K. readers).

Woops 'but' not 'bit'.

[VBF]

From one grumpy old man to another -

I used to be a grumpy old man bit now I'm a "GOVE" (sorry, that'll only make sense to U.K. readers).

Indeed

[faraday]

Sooooooo (for Cooked's benefit)

A man eating Tiger

&

A man eating Ice cream.

Means almost the same, like?

[VBF]

Sooooooo (for Cooked's benefit)

A man eating Tiger

&

A man eating Ice cream.

Means almost the same, like?

Apparently, in this instance it does

Sorry...... but couldn't resist!

Edited June 26, 2015 by VBF

[NoshowJones]

I would not of thought their was so many grammar mistake's here. I suppose less people have gotten a good education.

I don't bother too much about grammar mistakes, and we all make typos at times, but what gets me are people who want to be English teachers and their grammar, spelling and non use of capital letters is really bad.

[bangon04]

That that is your position is fair enough. That being said, I'd like to confess that I'm a big fan of the use of "that" in sentences, especially ones that are so long that a "that" could serve almost as a conjunction.

Could that kind of writing be construed as a grammar offence? That depends on one's level of grammar naziism. For the most part, it's just bad writing.

So, yes, I think I agree with you.

T

(That stands for "Thakkar" and not "that)

I said that that "that" that that man wrote should have been underlined.

That's 5 "thats" in a row!

I said that(1),that(2) "that"(3) that(4) that(5) man wrote should have been underlined.

(1)The first "that" is used according to the second definition, as a conjunction. It introduces the quote. Strictly speaking it isn't necessary, but in English it is allowed. For example, either of the following two sentences are correct:

1. I said, "I don't want to do any more riddles."

2. I said that I don't want to do any more riddles.

(2) The second "that" follows the first pronoun definition: "The one designated or implied."

(3) The one it designates is the third "that," which has quotation marks since it references itself (it is used as a noun). This is easier to understand if you imagine another word, like "letter" in its place: I said that, "That letter that..." - except that it was not a letter written, but the word "that."

(4) The fourth "that" is used according to the second definition. This is easier to understand if you replace it with "which": I said that "that 'that' which that man wrote..."

(5) The fifth "that" refers to the man, again using the first definition: "The one designated or implied."

It is correct despite sounding a bit Porky Piggish.

"It is correct despite sounding a bit Porky Piggish."

Indeed. Proof, if proof were needed, that correct grammar does not in itself constitute good writing. Anyone who's read any of The Twilight books, or Fifty Shades of Grey could attest to that (Erm, so I'm told).

Conversely, using correct grammar would nullify this joke:

Question: What's brown and sticky?

Answer: A stick

T

and bending the rules of punctuation, you could have

Noi, while Lek had had "had", had had "had had": "had had" had had the approval of the teacher...

[Lake]

on a tangent..

I cringe at the use of "eyed" as a verb.

same with "cupped", as in her breast, yuk

can anyone come up with a good substitute for eyed?

no journalists, you're the worst offenders

[lostinisaan]

".I say erbs. If fact if I had a student who said herbs I'd correct him."

I would never correct a student on any approved pronunciation, spelling, or grammar.

My daughter is often forced to say rubber instead of eraser. She is also criticized for saying Zee instead of Zed because as I quote "English was invented by the English and I don't accept American English". My five year old was quite upset and said "This is how we say it in my family."

I teach my kids that both words, rubber and eraser are acceptable. Got an eight year old boy in class who lived four years in the UK, how could I tell him that rubber is wrong? But when it comes to the last letter of the alphabet, I disagree with zee.

It should be zet to make THE difference to the c sound. What really bugs me is when Americans want to tell me that Aluminium is spelled and pronounced Aluminum. Now shit, my American spell checker picked it up.

Even the Germans and others say Aluminium. But they must be wrong?

And I don’t wanna start to talk about football now.

Wouldn’t it be great if the language would a sort of standardized? Evryding airee maan?

[Sheryl]

A flaming post has been removed along with reply to it.

[duanebigsby]

".I say erbs. If fact if I had a student who said herbs I'd correct him."

I would never correct a student on any approved pronunciation, spelling, or grammar.

My daughter is often forced to say rubber instead of eraser. She is also criticized for saying Zee instead of Zed because as I quote "English was invented by the English and I don't accept American English". My five year old was quite upset and said "This is how we say it in my family."

I teach my kids that both words, rubber and eraser are acceptable. Got an eight year old boy in class who lived four years in the UK, how could I tell him that rubber is wrong? But when it comes to the last letter of the alphabet, I disagree with zee.[/size]

It should be zet to make THE difference to the c sound. What really bugs me is when Americans want to tell me that Aluminium is spelled and pronounced Aluminum. Now shit, my American spell checker picked it up.

Even the Germans and others say Aluminium. But they must be wrong?

And I dont wanna start to talk about football now.

Wouldnt it be great if the language would a sort of standardized? Evryding airee maan? [/size]

If it were to be standardized, the Americans would insist it was US English.

I teach Mattayom so at least they're able to understand there are different pronunciations and spellings.

My American co-workers hit the floor laughing when I pronounced decal as 'dekkal' as they have always said "deekal'

I've had Yank co-workers absolutely insist that I should be teaching American accents and spellings because "the world speaks murican English.

I point out that Thai people are far more likely to encounter Aussies and Brits than Americans.

[VBF]

A flaming post has been removed along with reply to it.

Thank you Sheryl - that was clearly the flame to which I felt bound to reply - no further comment!

[faraday]

And btw 'mercans. ...'Boodar' is the incorrect pronounciation.

[cooked]

The misuse of the word unique always grates. Something or someone cannot be very unique.

The mispronunciation of trait, the last t is silent, is another thing that foolishly peeves me.

It is not easy being pedant.

That's news to me. When did this happen ?

I also am foolishly peeved when people that have some knowledge of French, or German or whatever, insist that a word that has been absorbed into English should be pronounced as in the original language. The word generally subtly changes in meaning or is used in specific circumstances.

I did used to get annoyed by the BBC pronunciation of Sarkozy just as the French annoyed me by talking about someone called ' TAchair' .. Thatcher.

The last T in trait is not silent in UK English.

[Bredbury Blue]

".I say erbs. If fact if I had a student who said herbs I'd correct him."

I would never correct a student on any approved pronunciation, spelling, or grammar.

My daughter is often forced to say rubber instead of eraser. She is also criticized for saying Zee instead of Zed because as I quote "English was invented by the English and I don't accept American English". My five year old was quite upset and said "This is how we say it in my family."

Teach your daughter to correct the English. The English language is German in origin, just like the Queen.

The english language is german in origin. Nonsense. More like celtic..roman..germanic..scandanavian/danish..french..etc. It's a mongrel language developed over thousands of years.

[Ulic]

The misuse of the word unique always grates. Something or someone cannot be very unique.

The mispronunciation of trait, the last t is silent, is another thing that foolishly peeves me.

It is not easy being pedant.

You sure about "trait?" I think you're running solo on that pronunciation:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/pronunciation/british/trait

I am sure.

From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary

noun \ˈtrāt, British usually ˈtrā\

I don't understand, I went to the Merriam-Webster web site, listened to the audio pronunciation

and the last t is not silent. Are you saying they are not pronouncing the word correctly on the website?

[1900]

I have one of my own personal rules and I stick to it.

Shouldn't white people be White people, and black people be Black people?

Caucasian, Negroid and all races are capitalized. Since Black and White are references to race ...

But it isn't done. At least in the Yank press and other sources.

[smotherb]

".I say erbs. If fact if I had a student who said herbs I'd correct him."

I would never correct a student on any approved pronunciation, spelling, or grammar.

My daughter is often forced to say rubber instead of eraser. She is also criticized for saying Zee instead of Zed because as I quote "English was invented by the English and I don't accept American English". My five year old was quite upset and said "This is how we say it in my family."

Teach your daughter to correct the English. The English language is German in origin, just like the Queen.

The english language is german in origin. Nonsense. More like celtic..roman..germanic..scandanavian/danish..french..etc. It's a mongrel language developed over thousands of years.

Please take your head out of your . . . .

1. The history of the English language really started with the arrival of three Germanic tribes who invaded Britain during the 5th century AD. These tribes, the Angles, the Saxons and the Jutes, crossed the North Sea from what today is Denmark and northern Germany.
2. History of the English Language | EnglishClub

   https://www.englishclub.com/english-language-history.htm

   • History of the English Language | EnglishClub

     https://www.englishclub.com/english-language-history.htm

     The history of the English language really started with the arrival of three Germanic tribes who invaded Britain during the 5th century AD. These tribes, the Angles, the Saxons and the Jutes, crossed the North Sea from what today is Denmark and northern Germany.

   • http://www.studyenglishtoday.net/english-language-history.html

Edited July 6, 2015 by Scott
Edited for fair use

[lostinisaan]

".I say erbs. If fact if I had a student who said herbs I'd correct him."

I would never correct a student on any approved pronunciation, spelling, or grammar.

My daughter is often forced to say rubber instead of eraser. She is also criticized for saying Zee instead of Zed because as I quote "English was invented by the English and I don't accept American English". My five year old was quite upset and said "This is how we say it in my family."

I teach my kids that both words, rubber and eraser are acceptable. Got an eight year old boy in class who lived four years in the UK, how could I tell him that rubber is wrong? But when it comes to the last letter of the alphabet, I disagree with zee.[/size]

It should be zet to make THE difference to the c sound. What really bugs me is when Americans want to tell me that Aluminium is spelled and pronounced Aluminum. Now shit, my American spell checker picked it up.

Even the Germans and others say Aluminium. But they must be wrong?

And I dont wanna start to talk about football now.

Wouldnt it be great if the language would a sort of standardized? Evryding airee maan? [/size]

If it were to be standardized, the Americans would insist it was US English.

I teach Mattayom so at least they're able to understand there are different pronunciations and spellings.

My American co-workers hit the floor laughing when I pronounced decal as 'dekkal' as they have always said "deekal'

I've had Yank co-workers absolutely insist that I should be teaching American accents and spellings because "the world speaks murican English.

I point out that Thai people are far more likely to encounter Aussies and Brits than Americans.

If it were to be standardized, the Americans would insist it was US English.

Hmm, not the "ordinary ones on the streets" when watching this....no American bashing post. Just what you find on YouTube and some answers are indeed breathtaking...

Edited June 27, 2015 by lostinisaan

[SheungWan]

The misuse of the word unique always grates. Something or someone cannot be very unique.

The mispronunciation of trait, the last t is silent, is another thing that foolishly peeves me.

It is not easy being pedant.

That's news to me. When did this happen ?

I also am foolishly peeved when people that have some knowledge of French, or German or whatever, insist that a word that has been absorbed into English should be pronounced as in the original language. The word generally subtly changes in meaning or is used in specific circumstances.

I did used to get annoyed by the BBC pronunciation of Sarkozy just as the French annoyed me by talking about someone called ' TAchair' .. Thatcher.

The last T in trait is not silent in UK English.

This discussion is in a cul de sac.

[faraday]

"Should of" instead of "Should have".....winds me up somethin' rotten.

[smotherb]

".I say erbs. If fact if I had a student who said herbs I'd correct him."

I would never correct a student on any approved pronunciation, spelling, or grammar.

My daughter is often forced to say rubber instead of eraser. She is also criticized for saying Zee instead of Zed because as I quote "English was invented by the English and I don't accept American English". My five year old was quite upset and said "This is how we say it in my family."

I teach my kids that both words, rubber and eraser are acceptable. Got an eight year old boy in class who lived four years in the UK, how could I tell him that rubber is wrong? But when it comes to the last letter of the alphabet, I disagree with zee.[/size]

It should be zet to make THE difference to the c sound. What really bugs me is when Americans want to tell me that Aluminium is spelled and pronounced Aluminum. Now shit, my American spell checker picked it up.

Even the Germans and others say Aluminium. But they must be wrong?

And I dont wanna start to talk about football now.

Wouldnt it be great if the language would a sort of standardized? Evryding airee maan? [/size]

If it were to be standardized, the Americans would insist it was US English.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-most-english-language-speaker-map.html

If it were to be standardized, the Americans would insist it was US English.

Hmm, not the "ordinary ones on the streets" when watching this....no American bashing post. Just what you find on YouTube and some answers are indeed breathtaking...

Of course it is US English, the US is the most populous English-speaking country in the world-- http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-most-english-language-speaker-map.html--even the Philippines has more English speakers than the UK. So get used to it, the UK is a minor English-speaking country.

[1900]

Love the prelude, "Not American bashing? And then bash them You think I couldn't go to London and find ignorance, Sidney, Auckland? Who could be so easily fooled? A fool. The cameraman and reporter choose who to interview, if he has an agenda (imagine a young reporter with an agenda, rare eh?) he cam surly edit out those with the right answers.

And do they say where those people are from? They're f**kin hicks!

You got a low IQ mate.