Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[Bellacissa]

If the trial does collapse, do we think anybody senior in the police force or government will resign?

Lets hope that the poor Burmese guys are properly compensated for having to go through this terrible ordeal.

Resign? No. Get punted over to the Office of Inactive Posts? Maybe.

[loonodingle]

The UK criminal forensic expert who spent time with the KT defense team last month is named Mike Moulden.

Just in case you was all asleep in the night Mr Crabby posted the pic of the defence expert and named him as Mike Moulden.

Well Mr Moulden has an impressive CV:

Michael Riggs-Moulden

Forensic, Crime Scene & Exploitation Consultant and Trainer.

Location Plymouth, United Kingdom Industry Law Enforcement

Current

1. UK Ministry of Defence

Previous

1. EULEX Kosovo, European Union Rule of Law Mission,
2. Defence Academy of the UK,
3. UN

Education

1. Cranfield University

UK Ministry of Defence

Subject Matter Expert

Starting

January 2012

View full profile

Background

Experience

Subject Matter Expert UK Ministry of Defence January 2012– Present (3 years 7 months)Afghanistan

Counter Terrorism Forensic Exploitation

Forensic Consultant EULEX Kosovo, European Union Rule of Law Mission April 2014– April 2014(1 month)Brussels Area, Belgium

Forensic and Crime Scene Evidence Consolidation

Crime Scene & Forensic Associate Lecturer Defence Academy of the UK April 2014– April 2014(1 month)Shrivenham, England

Lecturing and Consultancy in Forensic and Crime Scene specialisms both domestically and internationally.

Forensic Expert UN September 2006– December 2011(5 years 4 months)

Head of Forensic Services Special Anti Crime Unit 2006– 2009(3 years)

Crime Scene Supervisor/Manager Dorset Police 2004– 2006(2 years)

Forensic Mentor Crime Scene Project Afghanistan 2004– 2004(less than a year)

Scenes of Crime Officer Surrey Police 2000– 2003(3 years)

Edited July 12, 2015 by loonodingle

[BritTim]

I have not seen any discussion of the testimony of Dr. Chasit Yoohad as reported in http://bigstory.ap.org/urn:publicid:ap.org:eab0f9d26be242048e4dae7a83a9334e.

A second witness, Dr. Chasit Yoohad, gave testimony about his examination of the victims' bodies. He said he also performed a medical checkup of the two accused, and found them in good health. He said he asked through a translator if they had committed the crime, and they replied that they had.

This strikes me as strange. Why would the doctor be interrogating the Burmese? Of course, if the doctor was part of a frame up, the testimony is extremely convenient. It also does not state when this examination of the Burmese took place. I assume the translator was the pancake seller who has been accused of participating in the torture of the two accused. Even if the doctor's interrogation was carried out fairly, the two Burmese kids would probably not have dared risk renewed torture by claiming innocence. Further, how does anyone know that questions and answers from the pancake seller were correct translations?

Will the "translator" give evidence at the trial? Should this claim of the Burmese admission of guilt be regarded as hearsay if he does not?

[BritTim]

Does anyone have a transcript to show what was actually said about the DNA being lost. I'd love to know which words were mistranslated?

No transcript exists. The reporters were also not allowed to take notes. At the end of the trial, the judge provides his notes as a record of the proceedings. For the moment, we must rely on the memories of the testimony by those present. The judge will decide later what the witnesses actually said. Welcome to the Thai judicial system.

[loonodingle]

I have not seen any discussion of the testimony of Dr. Chasit Yoohad as reported in http://bigstory.ap.org/urn:publicid:ap.org:eab0f9d26be242048e4dae7a83a9334e.

A second witness, Dr. Chasit Yoohad, gave testimony about his examination of the victims' bodies. He said he also performed a medical checkup of the two accused, and found them in good health. He said he asked through a translator if they had committed the crime, and they replied that they had.

This strikes me as strange. Why would the doctor be interrogating the Burmese? Of course, if the doctor was part of a frame up, the testimony is extremely convenient. It also does not state when this examination of the Burmese took place. I assume the translator was the pancake seller who has been accused of participating in the torture of the two accused. Even if the doctor's interrogation was carried out fairly, the two Burmese kids would probably not have dared risk renewed torture by claiming innocence. Further, how does anyone know that questions and answers from the pancake seller were correct translations?

Will the "translator" give evidence at the trial? Should this claim of the Burmese admission of guilt be regarded as hearsay if he does not?

Its more like he was checking them for injuries using the same pancake seller to translate who has been named as part of the torture gang. At one point the police said they left him in the room with the suspects and he came out and said they had confessed removing any liability from them and passing it on to the pancake man..

[thailandchilli]

AFP published an hour ago: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/no-dna-retest-brit-tourist-bodies-thai-murder-065142771.html;_ylt=AwrXnCLLHKJVjHoATqvQtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTByb2lvbXVuBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--

No DNA retest from Brit tourist bodies at Thai murder trial: lawyer

Bangkok (AFP) - The defence team for two Myanmar nationals accused of murdering a pair of British backpackers in Thailand confirmed Sunday that they will not be able to retest crucial DNA samples taken from the victims' bodies.

Migrant workers Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Tun are on trial for the murder of 24-year-old David Miller and the rape and murder of Hannah Witheridge, 23, on Koh Tao island in September.

If found guilty they could face the death penalty. Both have pleaded not guilty.

Thai police and prosecutors say forensic evidence strongly points towards the two 22-year-old suspects with both men's DNA found on or inside the body of Witheridge.

But the defence claims the men have been scapegoated by an under pressure police force who bungled their investigation and coerced confessions from the pair which they later retracted.

They had asked trial judges on the nearby island of Koh Samui permission to independently retest all the police's DNA samples.

On Friday the court ruled that they could do so.

But there was confusion about which samples left in police possession were still in a suitable state for retesting -- particularly the crucial swabs taken from Miller and Witheridge's bodies.

Lead defence lawyer Nakhon Chomphuchart told AFP Sunday that only a handful of items found near the crime scene can be reexamined, including a garden hoe -- the suspected murder weapon -- a shoe, a sock and some plastic bags.

But swabs from the victims were among the DNA samples used up in the testing process.

"We wanted to be able to test more but with the other items there are no samples left (to test)," he said.

View gallery

British tourists Hannah Witheridge (L) and David Miller were found murdered on the Thai island of Ko …

It is not clear how useful a retest on the available items will prove to either side. Earlier in the week a witness testified to removing and washing down the garden hoe when he came across it shortly after the holidaymakers' bodies were found.

"The Court order means no possible retest on DNA samples from Hannah and David's bodies," Andy Hall, a Thailand-based British rights activist who has raised money for the accused and advises their legal team, told AFP.

"Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo (Win Zaw Tun) now have no chance to retest crucial Thailand based forensic evidence implicating them in the crimes they are charged of," he said, adding that the integrity of the police investigation "has been seriously undermined" by the lack of retestable samples.

Edited July 12, 2015 by thailandchilli

[Slip]

There have been a lot of questions about whether the dna evidence was lost, used up, or sent away, and I don't think anyone has commented on the actual Thai/ English translations in question, which is a little surprising to me. It's against the rules to post Thai language here, but:

The Thai word for 'finished' is a single word. The Thai word for 'vanished' or indeed 'gone away' is actually two words, the first of which is the same for the Thai word as 'finished'.

http://www.thai-language.com/id/205594

[DNPBC0]

While the matching of DNA samples is important, I suspect that the overriding importance of a likely contamination of the crime scene and problems in the chain of custody of any collected physical evidence will emerge as the major issues.

[docshock13]

I have not seen any discussion of the testimony of Dr. Chasit Yoohad as reported in http://bigstory.ap.org/urn:publicid:ap.org:eab0f9d26be242048e4dae7a83a9334e.

A second witness, Dr. Chasit Yoohad, gave testimony about his examination of the victims' bodies. He said he also performed a medical checkup of the two accused, and found them in good health. He said he asked through a translator if they had committed the crime, and they replied that they had.

This strikes me as strange. Why would the doctor be interrogating the Burmese? Of course, if the doctor was part of a frame up, the testimony is extremely convenient. It also does not state when this examination of the Burmese took place. I assume the translator was the pancake seller who has been accused of participating in the torture of the two accused. Even if the doctor's interrogation was carried out fairly, the two Burmese kids would probably not have dared risk renewed torture by claiming innocence. Further, how does anyone know that questions and answers from the pancake seller were correct translations?

Will the "translator" give evidence at the trial? Should this claim of the Burmese admission of guilt be regarded as hearsay if he does not?

Very strange indeed. But nothing surprises me anymore.

[StealthEnergiser]

The UK criminal forensic expert who spent time with the KT defense team last month is named Mike Moulden.

Just in case you was all asleep in the night Mr Crabby posted the pic of the defence expert and named him as Mike Moulden.

Well Mr Moulden has an impressive CV:

Michael Riggs-Moulden

Forensic, Crime Scene & Exploitation Consultant and Trainer.

Location Plymouth, United Kingdom Industry Law Enforcement

Current

1. UK Ministry of Defence

Previous

1. EULEX Kosovo, European Union Rule of Law Mission,
2. Defence Academy of the UK,
3. UN

Education

1. Cranfield University

UK Ministry of Defence

Subject Matter Expert

Starting

January 2012

View full profile

Background

Experience

Subject Matter Expert UK Ministry of Defence January 2012– Present (3 years 7 months)Afghanistan

Counter Terrorism Forensic Exploitation

Forensic Consultant EULEX Kosovo, European Union Rule of Law Mission April 2014– April 2014(1 month)Brussels Area, Belgium

Forensic and Crime Scene Evidence Consolidation

Crime Scene & Forensic Associate Lecturer Defence Academy of the UK April 2014– April 2014(1 month)Shrivenham, England

Lecturing and Consultancy in Forensic and Crime Scene specialisms both domestically and internationally.

Forensic Expert UN September 2006– December 2011(5 years 4 months)

Head of Forensic Services Special Anti Crime Unit 2006– 2009(3 years)

Crime Scene Supervisor/Manager Dorset Police 2004– 2006(2 years)

Forensic Mentor Crime Scene Project Afghanistan 2004– 2004(less than a year)

Scenes of Crime Officer Surrey Police 2000– 2003(3 years)

He Looks very confident great to see this support team I feel that quite a few people on the prosecution side may be starting to panic now.

[balo]

Anyone know if Sean McAnna is called in as a witness ?

[spidermike007]

birma guys...

not cambodians but the problem is the same.

the 3 or 4 real culprits are still running free.

If the 2 on trial are genuinely not responsible for these crimes, then the real culprits should right now be finding a way to take up residence in a country without an extradition treaty to Thailand. That is, if the real culprits did not leave the island the following morning on the first available ferry.

Not necessary. The real culprits are above the law. The family is more powerful than the general. This has been shown over and over again. Do not upset the status quo.

These people run bungalows on KT when there are 5 star resorts on Samui. If the proverbial crap would really ever hit the fan, I think some people would find out just how few real friends they have who would be willing to go down with them.

Dead wrong. Where they made their money is in selling leased land for millions. The land dept. gave them fake title to sell. These five Dark Tao families are worth hundreds of millions of dollars, each. That is a fact. The entire island is leased land. So, how does this happen? Crazy money being made.

[loonodingle]

The UK criminal forensic expert who spent time with the KT defense team last month is named Mike Moulden.

Just in case you was all asleep in the night Mr Crabby posted the pic of the defence expert and named him as Mike Moulden.

Well Mr Moulden has an impressive CV:

Michael Riggs-Moulden

Forensic, Crime Scene & Exploitation Consultant and Trainer.

Location Plymouth, United Kingdom Industry Law Enforcement

Current

1. UK Ministry of Defence

Previous

1. EULEX Kosovo, European Union Rule of Law Mission,
2. Defence Academy of the UK,
3. UN

Education

1. Cranfield University

UK Ministry of Defence

Subject Matter Expert

Starting

January 2012

View full profile

Background

Experience

Subject Matter Expert UK Ministry of Defence January 2012– Present (3 years 7 months)Afghanistan

Counter Terrorism Forensic Exploitation

Forensic Consultant EULEX Kosovo, European Union Rule of Law Mission April 2014– April 2014(1 month)Brussels Area, Belgium

Forensic and Crime Scene Evidence Consolidation

Crime Scene & Forensic Associate Lecturer Defence Academy of the UK April 2014– April 2014(1 month)Shrivenham, England

Lecturing and Consultancy in Forensic and Crime Scene specialisms both domestically and internationally.

Forensic Expert UN September 2006– December 2011(5 years 4 months)

Head of Forensic Services Special Anti Crime Unit 2006– 2009(3 years)

Crime Scene Supervisor/Manager Dorset Police 2004– 2006(2 years)

Forensic Mentor Crime Scene Project Afghanistan 2004– 2004(less than a year)

Scenes of Crime Officer Surrey Police 2000– 2003(3 years)

He Looks very confident great to see this support team I feel that quite a few people on the prosecution side may be starting to panic now.

Look at the guys CV... Its outstanding he obviously knows his stuff about crime scene.

Afghanistan

Kosovo.

I bet those pictures that were leaked in the first instance tell a dramatic story. One that money cant buy. I think there was a concerted effort to subdue the victim. There was bruises appearing immediately it seems. A bite mark and numerous lacerations that could easily have been inflicted by shrapnel IMHO. But I am no expert I am just using my eyes.

[Emster23]

"investigation that raised questions about police and judicial competency in Thailand." Judging from just how much this is a dog and pony show, pretty safe to assume those questions have been answered in the negative.

[thailandchilli]

Anyone know if Sean McAnna is called in as a witness ?

Nope, although it was also reported that the new evidence the defense team has also includes information from 2 UK witnesses, now who they are remains to be seen.

[Slip]

The UK criminal forensic expert who spent time with the KT defense team last month is named Mike Moulden.

Just in case you was all asleep in the night Mr Crabby posted the pic of the defence expert and named him as Mike Moulden.

Well Mr Moulden has an impressive CV:

Michael Riggs-Moulden

Forensic, Crime Scene & Exploitation Consultant and Trainer.

Location Plymouth, United Kingdom Industry Law Enforcement

Current

1. UK Ministry of Defence

Previous

1. EULEX Kosovo, European Union Rule of Law Mission,
2. Defence Academy of the UK,
3. UN

Education

1. Cranfield University

UK Ministry of Defence

Subject Matter Expert

Starting

January 2012

View full profile

Background

Experience

Subject Matter Expert UK Ministry of Defence January 2012– Present (3 years 7 months)Afghanistan

Counter Terrorism Forensic Exploitation

Forensic Consultant EULEX Kosovo, European Union Rule of Law Mission April 2014– April 2014(1 month)Brussels Area, Belgium

Forensic and Crime Scene Evidence Consolidation

Crime Scene & Forensic Associate Lecturer Defence Academy of the UK April 2014– April 2014(1 month)Shrivenham, England

Lecturing and Consultancy in Forensic and Crime Scene specialisms both domestically and internationally.

Forensic Expert UN September 2006– December 2011(5 years 4 months)

Head of Forensic Services Special Anti Crime Unit 2006– 2009(3 years)

Crime Scene Supervisor/Manager Dorset Police 2004– 2006(2 years)

Forensic Mentor Crime Scene Project Afghanistan 2004– 2004(less than a year)

Scenes of Crime Officer Surrey Police 2000– 2003(3 years)

He Looks very confident great to see this support team I feel that quite a few people on the prosecution side may be starting to panic now.

Look at the guys CV... Its outstanding he obviously knows his stuff about crime scene.

Afghanistan

Kosovo.

I bet those pictures that were leaked in the first instance tell a dramatic story. One that money cant buy. I think there was a concerted effort to subdue the victim. There was bruises appearing immediately it seems. A bite mark and numerous lacerations that could easily have been inflicted by shrapnel IMHO. But I am no expert I am just using my eyes.

I hope Mr. Riggs-Moulden has made good arrangements for his safety. It's a jungle down there.

[BlackJack]

Why would 2 low paid Burmese worker rape someone with a condom

then leave it behind as evidence

[smedly]

did anyone actually believe that this supposed DNA was ever going to be available for retest, now it is a case of either believing the police (which I don't) or making this evidence inadmissible since there is no actual physical sample to prove otherwise if challenged, like I said a few days ago it is like having a gun (alleged murder weapon) and bullets undergo a ballistics test and then loosing the gun and bullets......what gun ? what DNA ?

[thailandchilli]

Was this ever investigated? I doubt it. Happened on the same stretch of beach the night before the murders

Thai motorbike gang mugged British women night before backpacker couple were murdered on Koh Tao island

A pair of British women were reportedly mugged by a Thai motorbike gang on the same beach where two backpackers were brutally murdered and just one night before the killings took place, it was claimed on Sunday.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11111774/Thai-motorbike-gang-mugged-British-women-night-before-backpacker-couple-were-murdered-on-Koh-Tao-island.html

[boomerangutang]

GIGO comes to mind: Garbage In, Garbage Out. Seems all evidence has been so jumbled up, tampered, fabricated that would be impossible to make case against anyone. IATA records only as good as what goes in from terminal, and if kid flew to BKK could have just put any name on there, and what check in counter person going to question that.

I have some faith in Pornthip. Recall she stood up to get DNA samples from Tsunami victims in spite of harassment by authorities. But she can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

Granted it's easy to use a fake name to take a domestic flight, if the person is Thai - but there should also be security video footage of every flight - of people entering and leaving the plane. That can't be faked. As for GIGO, I agree, and that's why the Brit victims' families were fooled by Brit experts who were so easily fooled by Thai officials. I have faith in Pontip considering she's probably the best forensic expert available in Thailand. I like how she's not afraid to go against the grain with Thai officialdom, though she is working for the gov't and she did make a dumb call on the bomb detectors.

I hope forensic samples aren't compromised or lost - for the slight chance that the real culprits might someday be hauled in to court. The evidence will then be needed - albeit the odds of that happening are remote.

For those who don't undrstand the Thainess of this case look at the following with English subtitles available.

That video should be required watching for everyone involved with or interested in the case - particularly Thai and British officials. Sonthi's stock just went up in my estimation.

If the trial does collapse, do we think anybody senior in the police force or government will resign?

Lets hope that the poor Burmese guys are properly compensated for having to go through this terrible ordeal.

Resignation would be too cushy. They should be subject to stern disciplinary inquiries. If it it'shown: the people who are entrusted to protect the public are actually intentionally endangering the public (by enabling killers to roam free), there should be no mercy. This being Thailand, the worst that could happen is assignment to an inactive post, with full pay and benefits. - except for those quick enough to empty their bank accounts and take the first jet to a farang country to live high on the hog.

[wimpy]

Sure wish I didn't have to wade through page after page of drivel to get to the pertinent news articles. Couldn't they be pinned to the top of this thread?

[Mooner]

For those who don't undrstand the Thainess of this case look at the following with English subtitles available.

Pretty much filledy in the holes and explained what every rational thinker believes.

[loonodingle]

Sure wish I didn't have to wade through page after page of drivel to get to the pertinent news articles. Couldn't they be pinned to the top of this thread?

Stop adding to it then. Pot Kettle black?

[VintageTQ]

Ok so im just going to throw this out there....

Edited July 12, 2015 by VintageTQ

[JLCrab]

to an overly posted above: So if the leased land on Koh Tao is worth hundreds of millions, then the land on Koh Samui must be worth billions. Why would those those people with just as many if not greater connections and with properties worth into the billions allow this guy to run the show on their island just to cover up for his little brat?

[catsanddogs]

Evidence questions unresolved in Thai tourist murder trial

THANYARAT DOKSONE, Associated Press

BANGKOK (AP) — After three days of testimony in the murder trial of two Burmese migrants accused of killing two young British tourists on a Thai resort island, confusion remains over the disposition of key evidence.

Accounts by Thai media and spectators at the trial said the court on the southern island of Koh Samui on Friday ordered forensic retesting of several items found at the crime scene, including a shovel that is alleged to be the murder weapon.

However, the court failed to clarify what if anything should be done about DNA evidence obtained from the bodies and elsewhere that the defense has said is crucial to its case.

The trial has drawn global attention both for the gruesome murders on the quiet, scenic island of Koh Tao last September and for an investigation that raised questions about police and judicial competency in Thailand.

Initial press reports said the DNA evidence had been lost, but police have said that was a misunderstanding. They have reportedly told defense lawyers that at least in some cases, the samples were used up by the initial testing. But no clear official explanation has been issued.

"It is not lost," national police chief Gen. Somyot Poompanmoung told reporters in Bangkok before Friday's session. "I repeat: Nothing is lost."

Somyot called it a misunderstanding that stemmed from foreign media covering the case who might have poor Thai language skills.

Somyot said the local police investigator, Lt. Col. Somsak Nurod, was vague in his testimony and therefore was misinterpreted. Somsak was no longer in possession of the DNA evidence since he collected it and then sent it to the Forensics Medicine Institute in Bangkok, Somyot said.

"Nothing is missing. It's a misunderstanding," the police chief said.

The bodies of backpackers David Miller, 24, and Hannah Witheridge, 23, were found Sept. 15 on the rocky shores of Koh Tao. Autopsies showed that both had suffered severe head wounds and that Witheridge had been raped.

Under intense pressure to catch the murderers, police carried out DNA tests on more than 200 people on Koh Tao before arresting the two Myanmar migrants in early October.

The men — Win Zaw Htun and Zaw Lin, both 22 — have retracted their initial confessions, saying they were extracted through beatings and threats, which police deny. From the start, investigators faced a variety of criticisms, including for failing to secure the crime scene and for releasing names and pictures of suspects who turned out to be innocent.

Prosecutors say the DNA evidence, collected from cigarette butts, a condom and the bodies of the victims, links the two men to the killings, and defense lawyers have been requesting that evidence for re-examination since April.

Andy Hall, a British migrant rights activist working with the defense, said that handing over the DNA evidence was crucial to delivering justice.

"Without the samples it undermines the opportunity of the defense to get a fair trial," Hall said. "More importantly, if it is not provided, or if the forensics material is used up, it would undermine the credibility of the whole investigation."

___

Associated Press writer Jocelyn Gecker contributed to this report.

-- (c) Associated Press 2015-07-11

Note - press are now calling the hoe the 'alleged murder weapon' as opposed to 'the murder weapon'.

[BoristheBlade]

Anyone know if Sean McAnna is called in as a witness ?

If Mr McAnna turned up in court for the defence, there would be a mass exodus from Koh Tao and certain university's in Bangkok.

If something I would love to see, this man could turn this case in one statement.

Is he brave enough?

Alas, I very much doubt it

[BoristheBlade]

to an overly posted above: So if the leased land on Koh Tao is worth hundreds of millions, then the land on Koh Samui must be worth billions. Why would those those people with just as many if not greater connections and with properties worth into the billions allow this guy to run the show on their island just to cover up for his little brat?

I totally agree, but the little brats connections must be very, very high and I mean much higher than the mad monk.

[JLCrab]

to an overly posted above: So if the leased land on Koh Tao is worth hundreds of millions, then the land on Koh Samui must be worth billions. Why would those those people with just as many if not greater connections and with properties worth into the billions allow this guy to run the show on their island just to cover up for his little brat?

I totally agree, but the little brats connections must be very, very high and I mean much higher than the mad monk.

I am only speaking from conjecture -- if the first week of the trial is any indication of his connections, even though it is early, I will stick with my opinion that his control, once off his own island, is overrated on these pages.

[StealthEnergiser]

For those who don't undrstand the Thainess of this case look at the following with English subtitles available.

Pretty much filledy in the holes and explained what every rational thinker believes.