Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[GOLDBUGGY]

bungelbag

"That would be the ac bar cctv footage that Mon refused to hand over to the police, saying it was 'private property' iirc? Convenient"

Oh really bungelbag. Do you mean like when he came in for questioning and had his DAN tested, or do you mean that in Thailand they don't have such things as search Warrants?

Oh! That is right! I just remembered! Aren't you the one that's says the Police here can do what they like? So what is stopping them?

He never had his DNA tested.

What's stopping the police? They are in on it & getting paid handsomely by the mafia on the island.

Do you live or have ever been to Thailand?

You are making a real fool of yourself with these inane comments

No! I am sorry. I am just trying to understand what you are trying to say here.

You said that Mon did not want to turn over the CCTV Footage. Then you said the police can get them if they want, but they don't want to. So are you then saying that Mon refused to turn over these CCTV Footage Tapes from the AC Bar over to the Police, because they don't want them?

Sure! This makes perfect logical sense...I think???

[joebrown]

I haven't posted much on this thread recently, but I've labored and read all of the posts, for what they're worth. I'm still in the 'B2 camp' despite the fact that most of what I've read is conjecture.

I base my belief in the B2s' innocence on a flawed investigation, particularly the bungled crime scene forensics and the lack of DNA now available for re-testing at the defence's request. I would really like to know what evidence was in the hands of the police when they declared early on that they had identified the 2 local Thai suspects! This evidence was later 'conveniently' never referred to again when the 2 local Thais were exculpated, and the B2 were found to be suitable substitutes.

Several posters have asked why the bodies weren't disposed of at sea etc etc and why did this or that person do or not do something else to cover their tracks. IMHO this is easier to understand, because it's a natural cultural trait, and a result of the Thai education process to do or say something on the spur of the moment and not think quickly and plan ahead for the possible consequences of one's actions. Add to this the wishes/demands of the 'influentials' who are never used to having their words and actions questioned, and you arrive at what we are seeing at this so called trial, which is supposed to be a 'showpiece' of justice to the watching world.

Edited July 21, 2015 by joebrown

[thailandchilli]

Please keep in mind the defense team including Andy Hall are working for free in this case:

Funds needed by the MWRN to bring British crime scene and forensic experts over to Samui for the Koh Tao murder trial

The Migrant Workers Rights Network (MWRN) is looking for support in order to raise funds urgently required to fly UK based crime scene investigators and forensic experts to Samui to appear as witnesses in September.

The defense team has said that it has received unspecified information and evidence from UK authorities that was ‘not consistent” with findings obtained from Thai authorities and used by the prosecution in the cases.

The defense team has asked the court for independent tests to be carried out on DNA however the vital DNA evidence that links the two defendants Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo to the body of one of the victims cannot be produced for retesting.

http://www.samuitimes.com/funds-needed-by-the-mwrn-to-bring-british-crime-scene-and-forensic-experts-over-to-samui-for-the-koh-tao-murder-trial/

[Gweiloman]

" I know which way your bread is buttered. Hmm.. Sounds eerily similar to a quote another member loves to use... "Islandlife" has used that quote twice in response to people on these threads. Perhaps coincidence.

For the record, "knows which way his bread is buttered" must be some old English slang? Never herd that term in this tense before.

IIRC, Islandlife's English was of a (slightly) lower standard than our latest RTP defender so I don't think they are one and the same.

As to which way my bread is buttered, that's simple enough - the company that I work for pays me a monthly salary for the job that I do for them. What would be more interesting is whether Tony gets paid for / or has a vested interest in trying to deflect this thread.

Just for the record, may I suggest we don't use names like "latest RTP defenders". Because the opposite to that is the "Defenders of Rapists and Murders" and I don't think either is a civilized way to address each other. Do You?

Your bias and prejudice prevent you from being civil. RTP defender is completely factual and correct. Defenders of Rapists and Murders (sic) is not. Last I read, the trial is not yet over so they are at this point merely accused. Unless you are a RTP defender who believes that they have the perfect case and are already 100% certain of the outcome of the trial. Tin foil hat maybe?

[BritTim]

The suicide note was in French, he hung himself next to the balcony handrail and as it was extensively discussed back then people that commit suicide by hanging are known to tie their hands.

Isn't it time to allow Dmtri Povse rest in peace already?

The suicide note was in French,

Correct.

he hung himself next to the balcony handrail

If it was suicide, he would have had to do it by jumping from the handrail. He would have needed to tie his hands behind his back while balanced on the rail. This is conceivable, but extremely difficult.

people that commit suicide by hanging are known to tie their hands

Correct.

I discussed all available photos with two experienced homicide detectives. They both said that, based purely on the photographic evidence, the most likely scenario was assisted suicide. However, the scientific tests would be crucial in confirming or refuting this. The express cremation almost certainly prevented such tests from being carried out.

[joebrown]

bungelbag

"That would be the ac bar cctv footage that Mon refused to hand over to the police, saying it was 'private property' iirc? Convenient"

Oh really bungelbag. Do you mean like when he came in for questioning and had his DAN tested, or do you mean that in Thailand they don't have such things as search Warrants?

Oh! That is right! I just remembered! Aren't you the one that's says the Police here can do what they like? So what is stopping them?

You seem to be the most voluble poster in defence of the credibility of the police. I assume you have good reason to in your own mind.

I see you were asked whether you live here or have ever visited Thailand.

I think it would be wise to, and impolite not to answer the question(s), don't you?

Your answer(s) might add some credibility to your posts.

[boomerangutang]

bungelbag

"That would be the ac bar cctv footage that Mon refused to hand over to the police, saying it was 'private property' iirc? Convenient"

Oh really bungelbag. Do you mean like when he came in for questioning and had his DAN tested, or do you mean that in Thailand they don't have such things as search Warrants?

Oh! That is right! I just remembered! Aren't you the one that's says the Police here can do what they like? So what is stopping them?

He never had his DNA tested.

What's stopping the police? They are in on it & getting paid handsomely by the mafia on the island.

Do you live or have ever been to Thailand?

You are making a real fool of yourself with these inane comments

No! I am sorry. I am just trying to understand what you are trying to say here.

You said that Mon did not want to turn over the CCTV Footage. Then you said the police can get them if they want, but they don't want to. So are you then saying that Mon refused to turn over these CCTV Footage Tapes from the AC Bar over to the Police, because they don't want them?

Sure! This makes perfect logical sense...I think???

Goldbuggy, what about 'refusing to hand over CCTV footage' do you not understand? Police may or may not have asked for that footage. If they didn't ask for it, then it's par for the course in this case, of numerous RTP screw-ups. If cops did ask for it and were refused and left it at that, then cops should be disciplined for dereliction of duty, and Mon should be indicted for obstructing justice in a serious crime. Either way, those tapes will never be seen. It all fits with the RTP wanting no discussion or investigation of what transpired in the hours before the murders - particularly at the beach party bars: In Touch, and AC and AC2. It only adds to the mountains of potential evidence that RTP either

>>> didn't think to look for

>>> found, but trashed because it would implicate the people they're supposed to shield

>>> intentionally mis-diagnosed for public consumption (example: Mon shown in Running Man videos)

>>> thought to look for, but did a shoddy job, either intentionally or by being inept.

Some of the dozens of things the cops screwed up about:

>>> didn't look for bloody clothes outside the crime scene and didn't inspect nearby laundry facilities

>>> didn't thoroughly look at Mon's or the Headman's premises

>>> disregarded anything which happened at the bars

>>> didn't look for phone records

>>> didn't use sniffer dogs

>>> allowed Mon to prance all over the crime scene (maybe part of that can be excused, because Mon was within the crime scene in the hours before cops arrived)

>>> allowed people to handle evidence without rubber gloves

>>> didn't have qualified people doing forensics

>>> misdiagnosed David's wounds

>>> possibly misdiagmosed Hannah's wounds

>>> lied about DNA

....shall I go on?

Incidentally, the next days' of court will focus mostly on what happened at the 'safe house' and in the 2 to 3 days after, mostly re; what Burmese were pressured into admitting. Stay tuned. RTP are guaranteed to continue showing their colors.

[boomerangutang]

Why are there so few trained sniffer dogs in Thailand? I could understand, if this was a Muslim country, because they don't like dogs. But come on folks, dogs can be useful, and training/selling dogs could be lucrative biz for entrepreneurs. I won't go down the lane about how Thais generally don't know how to discipline dogs - because surely there could be some Thais who could learn how to do it. ....or farang could teach them. How much does a trained dog sell for? I'd imagine they're valuable.

Just some of the possible uses:

>>> bomb detection, along with guns/ammo/explosives.

>>> illegal drugs

>>> illegal migrants

>>> contraband; ivory, smuggled animals and their parts

>>> military uses. It's been found the best way is to get a soldier to bond with a particular dog. Similar for police or border guards.

>>> crime scene clues; bloody clothes, etc. What farang inspectors do at a crime scene: they take an article of clothing or something from the person they seek, and put it to the nose of the trained dog. then let the dog go (leashed or unleashed, depending how the dogs are trained) to look for related items/people.

[AleG]

The suicide note was in French, he hung himself next to the balcony handrail and as it was extensively discussed back then people that commit suicide by hanging are known to tie their hands.

Isn't it time to allow Dmtri Povse rest in peace already?

The suicide note was in French,

Correct.

he hung himself next to the balcony handrail

If it was suicide, he would have had to do it by jumping from the handrail. He would have needed to tie his hands behind his back while balanced on the rail. This is conceivable, but extremely difficult.

people that commit suicide by hanging are known to tie their hands

Correct.

I discussed all available photos with two experienced homicide detectives. They both said that, based purely on the photographic evidence, the most likely scenario was assisted suicide. However, the scientific tests would be crucial in confirming or refuting this. The express cremation almost certainly prevented such tests from being carried out.

What express cremation? The last I heard of that case the body was waiting to be claimed by the family.

And why would he have to balance from the handrail since he could easily prop himself up against a column or a wall? And that is granting the assumption that there was no chair, stool or whatever that he used to step up.

The pathologist that examined the actual body, not just a few photos, determined it was a suicide, the family says it was a suicide, the French embassy says it was a suicide. The only people that say it was not a suicide are the ones trying to shoe-horn his death into a larger narrative based on unwarranted assumptions and speculation piled one on top of another.

The same people that caused undue extra anguish to the family of Christina Annesley by immediately trying to tie her death to the murders of David Miller and Hannah Witheridge, it didn't matter that the autopsy revealed no foul play, it didn't matter that her family agrees with that, her death (as that of others) continues to be exploited to perpetuate the "Death Island" meme.

[BoristheBlade]

The theory of why weren't the bodies of the victims dumped at sea, maybe because of the shear arrogance of the persons involved.

I still believe whom ever did this crime has killed and raped before, and believed possibly correctly that they are above the law.

Another thing, after living in Thailand many years, I have never seen Thai's fight one to one.....it's always many people against 1..... Like a pack of dogs fighting.

David had no chance if and when he went to help Hannah, those animals would have attacked him on mass. He has a young, fit man, but that's not enough when you are outnumbered.

[Blackfox]

As Thailandchilli indicated, the defence team including Andy Hall are working for free in this case (pro bono).

I've read near all posts in this thread and I haven't come across one that has made mention of a personal donation to help support this case.

I've just had communications with Andy Hall and made a donation.

As I understand he, as with the defence team, are engaging in this case with every effort and resource available.

The British FCO are wishing for a fair and transparent trial but are prevented from having direct input. Therefore, we have a chance to provide assistance.

Irrespective of your views in this case, it is possible to have a direct effect on fairness and transparency.

Impartiality is questionable as evidenced thus far. Financial support for the defence is required. Would it not be satisfying to know you may just help bring fairness to this case.

Give it some thought.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Blackfox

[glenmohr]

The suicide note was in French, he hung himself next to the balcony handrail and as it was extensively discussed back then people that commit suicide by hanging are known to tie their hands.

Isn't it time to allow Dmtri Povse rest in peace already?

The suicide note was in French,

Correct.

he hung himself next to the balcony handrail

If it was suicide, he would have had to do it by jumping from the handrail. He would have needed to tie his hands behind his back while balanced on the rail. This is conceivable, but extremely difficult.

people that commit suicide by hanging are known to tie their hands

Correct.

I discussed all available photos with two experienced homicide detectives. They both said that, based purely on the photographic evidence, the most likely scenario was assisted suicide. However, the scientific tests would be crucial in confirming or refuting this. The express cremation almost certainly prevented such tests from being carried out.

What express cremation? The last I heard of that case the body was waiting to be claimed by the family.

And why would he have to balance from the handrail since he could easily prop himself up against a column or a wall? And that is granting the assumption that there was no chair, stool or whatever that he used to step up.

The pathologist that examined the actual body, not just a few photos, determined it was a suicide, the family says it was a suicide, the French embassy says it was a suicide. The only people that say it was not a suicide are the ones trying to shoe-horn his death into a larger narrative based on unwarranted assumptions and speculation piled one on top of another.

The same people that caused undue extra anguish to the family of Christina Annesley by immediately trying to tie her death to the murders of David Miller and Hannah Witheridge, it didn't matter that the autopsy revealed no foul play, it didn't matter that her family agrees with that, her death (as that of others) continues to be exploited to perpetuate the "Death Island" meme.

Then Mr G I would be more than interested to get your verdict on the bizarre death of British man Nick Pearson, not only on Koh Tao but in the same vicinity as where David Miller was located as a deceased person also. The coincidences are alarming comparing the tragedies of Pearson and Miller, both suffered injuries before being drowned in much the same location. Western trained detectives would be studying MO = Modus operandi. Killers tend to follow their traditional pattern and often give themselves away due to MO. What do you think? I live in Thailand, in my region there will be an unexplained death every few years and we have 100 times the population of Koh Tao where unexplained deaths are common place. We are told it is suicide that kills most visitors to Koh Tao. Why Koh Tao? Surely a depressed person would just do it close to home in their own country and save all the travel costs. Why do so many people have to go all the way to far off Koh Tao just in order to take their own life?

[stephenterry]

Firstly, it doesn't get light till about 5:30 plenty of time to get the bodies and hoe onto a longtail less than ten minutes to get out the bay another twenty minutes you would be in a perfect place to dump a body.

secondly, The so called mafia family have lived on the island afor generations and you think they have no clue how the tides work ?

Thirdly, Then why would NS have to flee the island wouldn't it be less suspicious to stay there if he had been on the island ?

P/s try being a bit more respectful and I will stop the tinfoil abuse.

For people who consider themselves above the law, they probably wanted to make a statement, re the 'staging' of the female victim, or they couldn't care less. Similarly with the French guy there who had drunk himself senseless on New Years eve, then committed a hanging suicide with his hands tied behind his back and no furniture kicked away. Plus his suicide note was in English.

If N/S was involved in some way, he could have been told to scarper ASAP, or he was scared - who knows. Typical Thai behaviour to run after a crime has been committed. Staying on the island was probably not on his immediate agenda.

The suicide note was in French, he hung himself next to the balcony handrail and as it was extensively discussed back then people that commit suicide by hanging are known to tie their hands.

Isn't it time to allow Dmtri Povse rest in peace already?

Whoops, sorry. The RTP did say there was a suicide note in French. As you say, RIP.

[JohnThailandJohn]

As Thailandchilli indicated, the defence team including Andy Hall are working for free in this case (pro bono).

I've read near all posts in this thread and I haven't come across one that has made mention of a personal donation to help support this case.

I've just had communications with Andy Hall and made a donation.

As I understand he, as with the defence team, are engaging in this case with every effort and resource available.

The British FCO are wishing for a fair and transparent trial but are prevented from having direct input. Therefore, we have a chance to provide assistance.

Irrespective of your views in this case, it is possible to have a direct effect on fairness and transparency.

Impartiality is questionable as evidenced thus far. Financial support for the defence is required. Would it not be satisfying to know you may just help bring fairness to this case.

Give it some thought.

Have to agree with asking people to put there money where their mouth is. Seems most are unwilling to do this but have no issue with screaming these two are innocent and they spend hours upon hours working on theories for other social media detectives to compare.

As and FYI, Andy is not somebody's whose words I would trust regarding this case, I believe he has his own agenda and plays lose with the facts.

These are attorneys assigned by their embassy and receive funds from the embassy to cover costs as well as receive donations and assume receive a salary seeing how they are embassy attorneys. If I recall the embassy was also footing the bill for family and witness travel and stay.

http://www.mizzima.com/affairs-news-domestic/myanmar-team-calls-more-money-koh-tao-murder-suspects

Edited July 21, 2015 by JohnThailandJohn

[stephenterry]

As Thailandchilli indicated, the defence team including Andy Hall are working for free in this case (pro bono).

I've read near all posts in this thread and I haven't come across one that has made mention of a personal donation to help support this case.

I've just had communications with Andy Hall and made a donation.

As I understand he, as with the defence team, are engaging in this case with every effort and resource available.

The British FCO are wishing for a fair and transparent trial but are prevented from having direct input. Therefore, we have a chance to provide assistance.

Irrespective of your views in this case, it is possible to have a direct effect on fairness and transparency.

Impartiality is questionable as evidenced thus far. Financial support for the defence is required. Would it not be satisfying to know you may just help bring fairness to this case.

Give it some thought.

Yes, I made a small donation initially. Put my money where my mouth is - i.e. supporting the B2's defence.

[thailandchilli]

As Thailandchilli indicated, the defence team including Andy Hall are working for free in this case (pro bono).

I've read near all posts in this thread and I haven't come across one that has made mention of a personal donation to help support this case.

I've just had communications with Andy Hall and made a donation.

As I understand he, as with the defence team, are engaging in this case with every effort and resource available.

The British FCO are wishing for a fair and transparent trial but are prevented from having direct input. Therefore, we have a chance to provide assistance.

Irrespective of your views in this case, it is possible to have a direct effect on fairness and transparency.

Impartiality is questionable as evidenced thus far. Financial support for the defence is required. Would it not be satisfying to know you may just help bring fairness to this case.

Give it some thought.

Have to agree with asking people to put there money where their mouth is. Seems most are unwilling to do this but have no issue with screaming these two are innocent and they spend hours upon hours working on theories for other social media detectives to compare.

As and FYI, Andy is not somebody's whose words I would trust regarding this case, I believe he has his own agenda and plays lose with the facts.

These are attorneys assigned by their embassy and receive funds from the embassy to cover costs as well as receive donations and assume receive a salary seeing how they are embassy attorneys. If I recall the embassy was also footing the bill for family and witness travel and stay.

http://www.mizzima.com/affairs-news-domestic/myanmar-team-calls-more-money-koh-tao-murder-suspects

Thank you for your opinion on the Human Rights advocate Andy Hall, its noted but disagreed with. Actually my opinion on the prosecution & RTP is much the same as yours on Andy.

As for the funds and what they are for, read the post and you will see, its for witnesses from the UK which the Burmese embassy is not funding.

[Gweiloman]

As Thailandchilli indicated, the defence team including Andy Hall are working for free in this case (pro bono).

I've read near all posts in this thread and I haven't come across one that has made mention of a personal donation to help support this case.

I've just had communications with Andy Hall and made a donation.

As I understand he, as with the defence team, are engaging in this case with every effort and resource available.

The British FCO are wishing for a fair and transparent trial but are prevented from having direct input. Therefore, we have a chance to provide assistance.

Irrespective of your views in this case, it is possible to have a direct effect on fairness and transparency.

Impartiality is questionable as evidenced thus far. Financial support for the defence is required. Would it not be satisfying to know you may just help bring fairness to this case.

Give it some thought.

Have to agree with asking people to put there money where their mouth is. Seems most are unwilling to do this but have no issue with screaming these two are innocent and they spend hours upon hours working on theories for other social media detectives to compare.

As and FYI, Andy is not somebody's whose words I would trust regarding this case, I believe he has his own agenda and plays lose with the facts.

These are attorneys assigned by their embassy and receive funds from the embassy to cover costs as well as receive donations and assume receive a salary seeing how they are embassy attorneys. If I recall the embassy was also footing the bill for family and witness travel and stay.

http://www.mizzima.com/affairs-news-domestic/myanmar-team-calls-more-money-koh-tao-murder-suspects

As and FYI, Andy is not somebody's whose words I would trust regarding this case, I believe he has his own agenda and plays lose with the facts.

Unless you can say back up your statement, I would suggest that it's you that plays loose with the facts.

[stephenterry]

As Thailandchilli indicated, the defence team including Andy Hall are working for free in this case (pro bono).

I've read near all posts in this thread and I haven't come across one that has made mention of a personal donation to help support this case.

I've just had communications with Andy Hall and made a donation.

As I understand he, as with the defence team, are engaging in this case with every effort and resource available.

The British FCO are wishing for a fair and transparent trial but are prevented from having direct input. Therefore, we have a chance to provide assistance.

Irrespective of your views in this case, it is possible to have a direct effect on fairness and transparency.

Impartiality is questionable as evidenced thus far. Financial support for the defence is required. Would it not be satisfying to know you may just help bring fairness to this case.

Give it some thought.

Have to agree with asking people to put there money where their mouth is. Seems most are unwilling to do this but have no issue with screaming these two are innocent and they spend hours upon hours working on theories for other social media detectives to compare.

As and FYI, Andy is not somebody's whose words I would trust regarding this case, I believe he has his own agenda and plays lose with the facts.

These are attorneys assigned by their embassy and receive funds from the embassy to cover costs as well as receive donations and assume receive a salary seeing how they are embassy attorneys. If I recall the embassy was also footing the bill for family and witness travel and stay.

http://www.mizzima.com/affairs-news-domestic/myanmar-team-calls-more-money-koh-tao-murder-suspects

More likely AH's experience with Thai justice and his court experiences has been an education he can exploit in turn. If his reputation precedes him his defence is more likely to gain respect (or less likely to be dismissed) from/by the court.

I also suggest that the RTP have their own agenda and play loose with the facts - a bit like the pot calling the kettle black, don't you think?

[thailandchilli]

As Thailandchilli indicated, the defence team including Andy Hall are working for free in this case (pro bono).

I've read near all posts in this thread and I haven't come across one that has made mention of a personal donation to help support this case.

I've just had communications with Andy Hall and made a donation.

As I understand he, as with the defence team, are engaging in this case with every effort and resource available.

The British FCO are wishing for a fair and transparent trial but are prevented from having direct input. Therefore, we have a chance to provide assistance.

Irrespective of your views in this case, it is possible to have a direct effect on fairness and transparency.

Impartiality is questionable as evidenced thus far. Financial support for the defence is required. Would it not be satisfying to know you may just help bring fairness to this case.

Give it some thought.

Have to agree with asking people to put there money where their mouth is. Seems most are unwilling to do this but have no issue with screaming these two are innocent and they spend hours upon hours working on theories for other social media detectives to compare.

As and FYI, Andy is not somebody's whose words I would trust regarding this case, I believe he has his own agenda and plays lose with the facts.

These are attorneys assigned by their embassy and receive funds from the embassy to cover costs as well as receive donations and assume receive a salary seeing how they are embassy attorneys. If I recall the embassy was also footing the bill for family and witness travel and stay.

http://www.mizzima.com/affairs-news-domestic/myanmar-team-calls-more-money-koh-tao-murder-suspects

As and FYI, Andy is not somebody's whose words I would trust regarding this case, I believe he has his own agenda and plays lose with the facts.

Unless you can say back up your statement, I would suggest that it's you that plays loose with the facts.

Maybe JTJ should donate some money to the RTP seeing as they lack the budget to bring a copy of the detailed crime scene photos with them to court.

[Darkknight666]

As Thailandchilli indicated, the defence team including Andy Hall are working for free in this case (pro bono).

I've read near all posts in this thread and I haven't come across one that has made mention of a personal donation to help support this case.

I've just had communications with Andy Hall and made a donation.

As I understand he, as with the defence team, are engaging in this case with every effort and resource available.

The British FCO are wishing for a fair and transparent trial but are prevented from having direct input. Therefore, we have a chance to provide assistance.

Irrespective of your views in this case, it is possible to have a direct effect on fairness and transparency.

Impartiality is questionable as evidenced thus far. Financial support for the defence is required. Would it not be satisfying to know you may just help bring fairness to this case.

Give it some thought.

Have to agree with asking people to put there money where their mouth is. Seems most are unwilling to do this but have no issue with screaming these two are innocent and they spend hours upon hours working on theories for other social media detectives to compare.

As and FYI, Andy is not somebody's whose words I would trust regarding this case, I believe he has his own agenda and plays lose with the facts.

These are attorneys assigned by their embassy and receive funds from the embassy to cover costs as well as receive donations and assume receive a salary seeing how they are embassy attorneys. If I recall the embassy was also footing the bill for family and witness travel and stay.

http://www.mizzima.com/affairs-news-domestic/myanmar-team-calls-more-money-koh-tao-murder-suspects

As and FYI, Andy is not somebody's whose words I would trust regarding this case, I believe he has his own agenda and plays lose with the facts.

Unless you can say back up your statement, I would suggest that it's you that plays loose with the facts.

Maybe JTJ should donate some money to the RTP seeing as they lack the budget to bring a copy of the detailed crime scene photos with them to court.

Not a bad idea. It's sad that the police could'nt preserve a few gigs of data to keep the crime scene photos but all the selfie taking at the scene sure got them online. I think that fact, the "no budget" fact is very, very telling. Edited July 21, 2015 by Darkknight666

[stephenterry]

In theory a good suggestion Mr Crab. However so many confusing contradictions. If what you say is the actuallity, then why did Nomsod delay his DNA testing for one full week if he was totally innocent?

This has been discussed many times before. If you were in Nomsods and his dad shoes with all the media attention you would do the same thing.

Nomsod thought he had already been cleared thanks to the CCTV footage placing him in Bangkok . But then social media starts to question the CCTV images if they had been faked. So finally they agreed to do the DNA test so everyone could stop chasing him. So he was cleared again , but since nobody here want to trust RTP and DNA labs in Thailand Nomsod in your eyes is still a suspect.

In my eyes, he has been cleared.

Balo/Tony - it's not rocket science to produce a genuine alibi if Nomsod was not involved in this crime. He had far easier ways to prove his whereabouts and innocence than the convoluted lawyer CCTV staging and the subsequent DNA media road show. All he had to do was to produce his phone records, a list of persons who could vouch for him in BKK, air/bus tickets, and places he ate at while there. Even his girl relation who said she was with him, was found to be in Pattaya. No wonder there's been speculation.

[stephenterry]

What is missing from any scenario relating to this case are mobile phone records. Plenty of phones, but no call evidence, or whereabouts evidence. Why?

Or is it, that there are none provided by the phone companies?

And then the phones themselves, especially those of the victims: the list of contacts. Any residing on Koh Tao?

A list of persons of 'interest':

the victims

their friends

Sean

Mon/Nomsod/Headman

The B2 and Muang Muang

That list has thrown up the same names time and time again in most of the scenario posts on here. Coincidence? It is my belief that one or more of the named persons (apart from the victims) knows (or suspects) who committed the murders. That could include the B2.

[jdinasia]

bungelbag

"That would be the ac bar cctv footage that Mon refused to hand over to the police, saying it was 'private property' iirc? Convenient"

Oh really bungelbag. Do you mean like when he came in for questioning and had his DAN tested, or do you mean that in Thailand they don't have such things as search Warrants?

Oh! That is right! I just remembered! Aren't you the one that's says the Police here can do what they like? So what is stopping them?

He never had his DNA tested.

What's stopping the police? They are in on it & getting paid handsomely by the mafia on the island.

Do you live or have ever been to Thailand?

You are making a real fool of yourself with these inane comments

No! I am sorry. I am just trying to understand what you are trying to say here.

You said that Mon did not want to turn over the CCTV Footage. Then you said the police can get them if they want, but they don't want to. So are you then saying that Mon refused to turn over these CCTV Footage Tapes from the AC Bar over to the Police, because they don't want them?

Sure! This makes perfect logical sense...I think???

Goldbuggy, what about 'refusing to hand over CCTV footage' do you not understand? Police may or may not have asked for that footage. If they didn't ask for it, then it's par for the course in this case, of numerous RTP screw-ups. If cops did ask for it and were refused and left it at that, then cops should be disciplined for dereliction of duty, and Mon should be indicted for obstructing justice in a serious crime. Either way, those tapes will never be seen. It all fits with the RTP wanting no discussion or investigation of what transpired in the hours before the murders - particularly at the beach party bars: In Touch, and AC and AC2. It only adds to the mountains of potential evidence that RTP either

>>> didn't think to look for

>>> found, but trashed because it would implicate the people they're supposed to shield

>>> intentionally mis-diagnosed for public consumption (example: Mon shown in Running Man videos)

>>> thought to look for, but did a shoddy job, either intentionally or by being inept.

Some of the dozens of things the cops screwed up about:

>>> didn't look for bloody clothes outside the crime scene and didn't inspect nearby laundry facilities

>>> didn't thoroughly look at Mon's or the Headman's premises

>>> disregarded anything which happened at the bars

>>> didn't look for phone records

>>> didn't use sniffer dogs

>>> allowed Mon to prance all over the crime scene (maybe part of that can be excused, because Mon was within the crime scene in the hours before cops arrived)

>>> allowed people to handle evidence without rubber gloves

>>> didn't have qualified people doing forensics

>>> misdiagnosed David's wounds

>>> possibly misdiagmosed Hannah's wounds

>>> lied about DNA

....shall I go on?

Incidentally, the next days' of court will focus mostly on what happened at the 'safe house' and in the 2 to 3 days after, mostly re; what Burmese were pressured into admitting. Stay tuned. RTP are guaranteed to continue showing their colors.

Everything you state as facts before "need I go on" is supposition based on bias

[Gweiloman]

No! I am sorry. I am just trying to understand what you are trying to say here.

You said that Mon did not want to turn over the CCTV Footage. Then you said the police can get them if they want, but they don't want to. So are you then saying that Mon refused to turn over these CCTV Footage Tapes from the AC Bar over to the Police, because they don't want them?

Sure! This makes perfect logical sense...I think???

Goldbuggy, what about 'refusing to hand over CCTV footage' do you not understand? Police may or may not have asked for that footage. If they didn't ask for it, then it's par for the course in this case, of numerous RTP screw-ups. If cops did ask for it and were refused and left it at that, then cops should be disciplined for dereliction of duty, and Mon should be indicted for obstructing justice in a serious crime. Either way, those tapes will never be seen. It all fits with the RTP wanting no discussion or investigation of what transpired in the hours before the murders - particularly at the beach party bars: In Touch, and AC and AC2. It only adds to the mountains of potential evidence that RTP either

>>> didn't think to look for

>>> found, but trashed because it would implicate the people they're supposed to shield

>>> intentionally mis-diagnosed for public consumption (example: Mon shown in Running Man videos)

>>> thought to look for, but did a shoddy job, either intentionally or by being inept.

Some of the dozens of things the cops screwed up about:

>>> didn't look for bloody clothes outside the crime scene and didn't inspect nearby laundry facilities

>>> didn't thoroughly look at Mon's or the Headman's premises

>>> disregarded anything which happened at the bars

>>> didn't look for phone records

>>> didn't use sniffer dogs

>>> allowed Mon to prance all over the crime scene (maybe part of that can be excused, because Mon was within the crime scene in the hours before cops arrived)

>>> allowed people to handle evidence without rubber gloves

>>> didn't have qualified people doing forensics

>>> misdiagnosed David's wounds

>>> possibly misdiagmosed Hannah's wounds

>>> lied about DNA

....shall I go on?

Incidentally, the next days' of court will focus mostly on what happened at the 'safe house' and in the 2 to 3 days after, mostly re; what Burmese were pressured into admitting. Stay tuned. RTP are guaranteed to continue showing their colors.

Everything you state as facts before "need I go on" is supposition based on bias

He doesn't state that they are facts - that's just how you choose to look at it.

I do agree that they are suppositions but based, not on bias, but of an understanding of how the RTP generally works and the contradicting information that they themselves released to the press and just the general perception (to all except to a few on TV) of how they handle evidence collection and the investigation as a whole.

For example, it was reported that a guitar was handed in by one of Mon's chef. Can this be admissible in court? Should evidence be collected by the police rather than passers by?

[stephenterry]

Goldbuggy, what about 'refusing to hand over CCTV footage' do you not understand? Police may or may not have asked for that footage. If they didn't ask for it, then it's par for the course in this case, of numerous RTP screw-ups. If cops did ask for it and were refused and left it at that, then cops should be disciplined for dereliction of duty, and Mon should be indicted for obstructing justice in a serious crime. Either way, those tapes will never be seen. It all fits with the RTP wanting no discussion or investigation of what transpired in the hours before the murders - particularly at the beach party bars: In Touch, and AC and AC2. It only adds to the mountains of potential evidence that RTP either

>>> didn't think to look for

>>> found, but trashed because it would implicate the people they're supposed to shield

>>> intentionally mis-diagnosed for public consumption (example: Mon shown in Running Man videos)

>>> thought to look for, but did a shoddy job, either intentionally or by being inept.

Some of the dozens of things the cops screwed up about:

>>> didn't look for bloody clothes outside the crime scene and didn't inspect nearby laundry facilities

>>> didn't thoroughly look at Mon's or the Headman's premises

>>> disregarded anything which happened at the bars

>>> didn't look for phone records

>>> didn't use sniffer dogs

>>> allowed Mon to prance all over the crime scene (maybe part of that can be excused, because Mon was within the crime scene in the hours before cops arrived)

>>> allowed people to handle evidence without rubber gloves

>>> didn't have qualified people doing forensics

>>> misdiagnosed David's wounds

>>> possibly misdiagmosed Hannah's wounds

>>> lied about DNA

....shall I go on?

Incidentally, the next days' of court will focus mostly on what happened at the 'safe house' and in the 2 to 3 days after, mostly re; what Burmese were pressured into admitting. Stay tuned. RTP are guaranteed to continue showing their colors.

Everything you state as facts before "need I go on" is supposition based on bias

The five highlighted sections are factual, whatever bias you want to put on it. If in doubt, refer to Ms Porntip's comments re forensic failings. The last one (DNA falsehood) is contestable, but the fact remains that the key DNA samples are not available for retesting despite the police chief's assertion that they had not lost anything.

I'm sure Boom had added others that could or should be brought out in court, and I agree, they are important questions to resolve..

[boomerangutang]

Goldbuggy, what about 'refusing to hand over CCTV footage' do you not understand? Police may or may not have asked for that footage. If they didn't ask for it, then it's par for the course in this case, of numerous RTP screw-ups. If cops did ask for it and were refused and left it at that, then cops should be disciplined for dereliction of duty, and Mon should be indicted for obstructing justice in a serious crime. Either way, those tapes will never be seen. It all fits with the RTP wanting no discussion or investigation of what transpired in the hours before the murders - particularly at the beach party bars: In Touch, and AC and AC2. It only adds to the mountains of potential evidence that RTP either

>>> didn't think to look for

>>> found, but trashed because it would implicate the people they're supposed to shield

>>> intentionally mis-diagnosed for public consumption (example: Mon shown in Running Man videos)

>>> thought to look for, but did a shoddy job, either intentionally or by being inept.

Some of the dozens of things the cops screwed up about:

>>> didn't look for bloody clothes outside the crime scene and didn't inspect nearby laundry facilities

>>> didn't thoroughly look at Mon's or the Headman's premises

>>> disregarded anything which happened at the bars

>>> didn't look for phone records

>>> didn't use sniffer dogs

>>> allowed Mon to prance all over the crime scene (maybe part of that can be excused, because Mon was within the crime scene in the hours before cops arrived)

>>> allowed people to handle evidence without rubber gloves

>>> didn't have qualified people doing forensics

>>> misdiagnosed David's wounds

>>> possibly misdiagmosed Hannah's wounds

>>> lied about DNA

....shall I go on?

Incidentally, the next days' of court will focus mostly on what happened at the 'safe house' and in the 2 to 3 days after, mostly re; what Burmese were pressured into admitting. Stay tuned. RTP are guaranteed to continue showing their colors.

Everything you state as facts before "need I go on" is supposition based on bias

Denial is not only a big river in Africa.

[AleG]

Have to agree with asking people to put there money where their mouth is. Seems most are unwilling to do this but have no issue with screaming these two are innocent and they spend hours upon hours working on theories for other social media detectives to compare.

As and FYI, Andy is not somebody's whose words I would trust regarding this case, I believe he has his own agenda and plays lose with the facts.

These are attorneys assigned by their embassy and receive funds from the embassy to cover costs as well as receive donations and assume receive a salary seeing how they are embassy attorneys. If I recall the embassy was also footing the bill for family and witness travel and stay.

http://www.mizzima.com/affairs-news-domestic/myanmar-team-calls-more-money-koh-tao-murder-suspects

The more confusion and speculation surrounding the case the more the defense team, MWRN and Andy Hall in particular benefit from the situation. I excluded the two men on trial because I expect the judges to rule based on actual facts, not speculation.

At least one person, speaking on behalf of Andy Hall and the MWRN, here in TV has unequivocally asked to continue the "hard speculation" when asking for donations, evidently the more sensationalism and outrage the better for them.

An article on the Samui Times, I believe, referred in part to this:

"It is also important that those involved in the case act responsibly, and are guarded in what they say to the press and refrain from sensationalism. Using the press as a way of garnering publicity for other cases or raising one’s own profile could be highly damaging to what is already a very sensitive case. It is vital that words are not put into the mouth of the accused not in a position to speak for themselves. Pointing fingers at other members of the community not standing trial is also deeply irresponsible."

It's worth noting that the news from the previous hearings were largely dominated not by reports coming directly from the court, but the defense team own take on the proceedings. Unsurprisingly that led to a large degree of confusing and contradictory information and I fully expect the same thing to happen in the following days.

I was particularly appaled by a tweet from Mr. Hall where he clearly tried to imply the father of David Miller cried when the retesting of some of the evidence was ruled out:

"BBC News - Thailand backpacker murders: Victim's father weeps at photos as forensics evidence re-test ruled out"

That was a very creative way of editing the actual article to give the impression that the father wept at the news of the retesting of some of the evidence being ruled out, not just at the moment the photos were shown. I don't think such editing is accidentally, it's a clear attempt at spinning things to elicit an emotional response and exactly the type of sensationalism the Samui Times article refers to.

[thailandchilli]

Have to agree with asking people to put there money where their mouth is. Seems most are unwilling to do this but have no issue with screaming these two are innocent and they spend hours upon hours working on theories for other social media detectives to compare.

As and FYI, Andy is not somebody's whose words I would trust regarding this case, I believe he has his own agenda and plays lose with the facts.

These are attorneys assigned by their embassy and receive funds from the embassy to cover costs as well as receive donations and assume receive a salary seeing how they are embassy attorneys. If I recall the embassy was also footing the bill for family and witness travel and stay.

http://www.mizzima.com/affairs-news-domestic/myanmar-team-calls-more-money-koh-tao-murder-suspects

The more confusion and speculation surrounding the case the more the defense team, MWRN and Andy Hall in particular benefit from the situation. I excluded the two men on trial because I expect the judges to rule based on actual facts, not speculation.

At least one person, speaking on behalf of Andy Hall and the MWRN, here in TV has unequivocally asked to continue the "hard speculation" when asking for donations, evidently the more sensationalism and outrage the better for them.

An article on the Samui Times, I believe, referred in part to this:

"It is also important that those involved in the case act responsibly, and are guarded in what they say to the press and refrain from sensationalism. Using the press as a way of garnering publicity for other cases or raising one’s own profile could be highly damaging to what is already a very sensitive case. It is vital that words are not put into the mouth of the accused not in a position to speak for themselves. Pointing fingers at other members of the community not standing trial is also deeply irresponsible."

It's worth noting that the news from the previous hearings were largely dominated not by reports coming directly from the court, but the defense team own take on the proceedings. Unsurprisingly that led to a large degree of confusing and contradictory information and I fully expect the same thing to happen in the following days.

I was particularly appaled by a tweet from Mr. Hall where he clearly tried to imply the father of David Miller cried when the retesting of some of the evidence was ruled out:

"BBC News - Thailand backpacker murders: Victim's father weeps at photos as forensics evidence re-test ruled out"

That was a very creative way of editing the actual article to give the impression that the father wept at the news of the retesting of some of the evidence being ruled out, not just at the moment the photos were shown. I don't think such editing is accidentally, it's a clear attempt at spinning things to elicit an emotional response and exactly the type of sensationalism the Samui Times article refers to.

So your tactic now is to attempt discredit the defense and Andy Hall. Yes the RTP also tried that and asked them why they were putting up such a strong defense as its disrespectful to the families, I guess you must agree with that then. Pretty sad that in a fight for justice posts such as this appear by people like you.

Instead of such low hand tactics why not comment on what has been presented in the case or rather lack of or is that to difficult for you to explain away

Edited July 21, 2015 by thailandchilli

[Gweiloman]

Have to agree with asking people to put there money where their mouth is. Seems most are unwilling to do this but have no issue with screaming these two are innocent and they spend hours upon hours working on theories for other social media detectives to compare.

As and FYI, Andy is not somebody's whose words I would trust regarding this case, I believe he has his own agenda and plays lose with the facts.

These are attorneys assigned by their embassy and receive funds from the embassy to cover costs as well as receive donations and assume receive a salary seeing how they are embassy attorneys. If I recall the embassy was also footing the bill for family and witness travel and stay.

http://www.mizzima.com/affairs-news-domestic/myanmar-team-calls-more-money-koh-tao-murder-suspects

The more confusion and speculation surrounding the case the more the defense team, MWRN and Andy Hall in particular benefit from the situation. I excluded the two men on trial because I expect the judges to rule based on actual facts, not speculation.

At least one person, speaking on behalf of Andy Hall and the MWRN, here in TV has unequivocally asked to continue the "hard speculation" when asking for donations, evidently the more sensationalism and outrage the better for them.

An article on the Samui Times, I believe, referred in part to this:

"It is also important that those involved in the case act responsibly, and are guarded in what they say to the press and refrain from sensationalism. Using the press as a way of garnering publicity for other cases or raising one’s own profile could be highly damaging to what is already a very sensitive case. It is vital that words are not put into the mouth of the accused not in a position to speak for themselves. Pointing fingers at other members of the community not standing trial is also deeply irresponsible."

It's worth noting that the news from the previous hearings were largely dominated not by reports coming directly from the court, but the defense team own take on the proceedings. Unsurprisingly that led to a large degree of confusing and contradictory information and I fully expect the same thing to happen in the following days.

I was particularly appaled by a tweet from Mr. Hall where he clearly tried to imply the father of David Miller cried when the retesting of some of the evidence was ruled out:

"BBC News - Thailand backpacker murders: Victim's father weeps at photos as forensics evidence re-test ruled out"

That was a very creative way of editing the actual article to give the impression that the father wept at the news of the retesting of some of the evidence being ruled out, not just at the moment the photos were shown. I don't think such editing is accidentally, it's a clear attempt at spinning things to elicit an emotional response and exactly the type of sensationalism the Samui Times article refers to.

That was a very creative way of editing the actual article to give the impression that the father wept at the news of the retesting of some of the evidence being ruled out, not just at the moment the photos were shown.

Hahahaha. Maybe you don't understand how tweets work. I would agree if the tweet read "Victim's father weeps as forensics evidence re-test ruled out", but it didn't. I must admit though that your post is a creative way of casting doubt onto AH's integrity.

It's worth noting that the news from the previous hearings were largely dominated not by reports coming directly from the court, but the defense team own take on the proceedings

Is there a court reporter talking to the press? Are the police talking to the press? Oh I forgot, there is hardly any Thai press present. So that leaves only the foreign press. Can you imagine any of the keystone cops being interviewed by foreign press? Especially since one or more translators have been "requested" to go somewhere else? Most likely, the police / prosecution are under orders not to talk to the press in order to stop digging themselves into a bigger hole. But once again, good creative effort on your part to try and undermine the damning (not against the B2) news coming out from this farcical trial.

[Rykbanlor]

Yes, you can argue about the speculation on TV till the cows come home and that is fair enough, but trying to discredit the defence is a new low.

Should there be no reports coming from the court?

The media has a job to do, and so far it seems to be on point.

Up until now I was willing to believe that there were a few people who were trying to play devil's advocate to all our posts, which I kinda respect, but I am no longer sure, in light of remarks against Andy Hall and and the defence. I see no examples of them trying to twist anything or play to any agenda.

I see a few people trying their best to report on the trial and keep it fair, in an overwhelmingly tainted situation.