Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[scorecard]

Koh Tao police quizzed on why they didn’t look into rumoured bar dispute

Sarah Yuen in Thailand

In testimony in court today, Lieutenant Colonel Kewalee Chanpan, from the forensic division of the Royal Thai Police, said that while the swabs used to obtain the DNA samples from the scene, and the victims’ and suspects’ bodies, would have been destroyed in the testing process, traces of the the DNA extracted from those swabs would still be available for retesting.

The police lieutenant colonel explained that trace DNA material is generally conserved for at least one to two years by the police forensics department.

While she could only speak for her own examination of the alleged murder weapon, some blood-spattered items of clothing, two cigarette butts and a condom found at the scene, she explained to the court that the same should be true for all the DNA samples gathered in the investigation. The officials responsible for the testing of DNA samples taken from the bodies of Ms Witheridge, 23, and 24 year-old David Miller, will appear in court tomorrow. The defence team had already been told by the Royal Thai Police that it could re-examine a few items, including the alleged murder weapon which is a garden hoe. But in court today, based on the new testimony, the defence team was given fresh hope that the more crucial evidence could also be re-examined.

The prosecution claims DNA from the two Burmese suspects, Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Htun, both aged 22, was found on or in Ms Witheridge’s body. The defence has now been told to once again compile a full list of the evidence it wants to retest, which will be submitted to the police forensics department, asking for it to be handed over to the Ministry of Justice Forensics Institute in Bangkok.

The trial adjourns tomorrow for almost a month. Andy Hall, the media spokesperson for the pro bono defence team, said: “I don’t think the court fully understood the testing process before, so when the police said the original samples had been used up, it believed there was nothing left to test. But the testimony of today’s witness has made it clear there would be conserved DNA residue, which could prove crucial to the suspects’ defence.”

Not investigated

The senior police officer investigating the killing of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge in Thailand said today that he had not investigated rumours that she had been involved in an argument with a Thai youth on the night of her death.

Read more: http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/hannah_witheridge_murder_trial_defence_team_hope_to_re_test_crucial_forensic_evidence_1_4164482

"...While she could only speak for her own examination of the alleged murder weapon, some blood-spattered items of clothing, two cigarette butts and a condom found at the scene, she explained to the court that the same should be true for all the DNA samples gathered in the investigation."

....should be true...

From my understanding in many countries this would be stop down in 2 seconds by the defense.

[BoristheBlade]

If this case does not result in a serious restructuring of the RTP , Thailand has no hope.

General. is this what you call professional?, is this bringing happiness.?

Sort it out man, this is bringing ridicule and shame to this nation.

[StealthEnergiser]

1:18AM BST 26 Sep 2014

Police quiz Thai footballers over murder of British backpackers

Police have been evasive about the AC Bar's possible importance to their inquiries. Thai media reported a police raid on the nightclub last Friday during which "narcotics" were allegedly found. However, the nightclub continues to operate and officials have repeatedly refused to provide details of that operation.

Many Koh Tao locals say they are convinced that whatever triggered the Britons' murders is likely to have taken place at the nightclub.

"We all believe that it started at AC Bar," one source said.

Rumours have circulated about a possible altercation at the AC Bar between the two victims and a group of Thai men.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11122966/Police-quiz-Thai-footballers-over-murder-of-British-backpackers.html

[smedly]

you know, I stated very early on on this thread that they should bulldoze this whole rotten place and permanently remove everyone on the Island and start fresh, it is a fine example of how Thailand has learned nothing over the last 30 years - this little Island is a miniature version of the whole country

[Dogmatix]

Koh Tao police quizzed on why they didn’t look into rumoured bar dispute

Sarah Yuen in Thailand

In testimony in court today, Lieutenant Colonel Kewalee Chanpan, from the forensic division of the Royal Thai Police, said that while the swabs used to obtain the DNA samples from the scene, and the victims’ and suspects’ bodies, would have been destroyed in the testing process, traces of the the DNA extracted from those swabs would still be available for retesting.

The police lieutenant colonel explained that trace DNA material is generally conserved for at least one to two years by the police forensics department.

While she could only speak for her own examination of the alleged murder weapon, some blood-spattered items of clothing, two cigarette butts and a condom found at the scene, she explained to the court that the same should be true for all the DNA samples gathered in the investigation. The officials responsible for the testing of DNA samples taken from the bodies of Ms Witheridge, 23, and 24 year-old David Miller, will appear in court tomorrow. The defence team had already been told by the Royal Thai Police that it could re-examine a few items, including the alleged murder weapon which is a garden hoe. But in court today, based on the new testimony, the defence team was given fresh hope that the more crucial evidence could also be re-examined.

The prosecution claims DNA from the two Burmese suspects, Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Htun, both aged 22, was found on or in Ms Witheridge’s body. The defence has now been told to once again compile a full list of the evidence it wants to retest, which will be submitted to the police forensics department, asking for it to be handed over to the Ministry of Justice Forensics Institute in Bangkok.

The trial adjourns tomorrow for almost a month. Andy Hall, the media spokesperson for the pro bono defence team, said: “I don’t think the court fully understood the testing process before, so when the police said the original samples had been used up, it believed there was nothing left to test. But the testimony of today’s witness has made it clear there would be conserved DNA residue, which could prove crucial to the suspects’ defence.”

Not investigated

The senior police officer investigating the killing of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge in Thailand said today that he had not investigated rumours that she had been involved in an argument with a Thai youth on the night of her death.

Read more: http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/hannah_witheridge_murder_trial_defence_team_hope_to_re_test_crucial_forensic_evidence_1_4164482

"...While she could only speak for her own examination of the alleged murder weapon, some blood-spattered items of clothing, two cigarette butts and a condom found at the scene, she explained to the court that the same should be true for all the DNA samples gathered in the investigation."

....should be true...

From my understanding in many countries this would be stop down in 2 seconds by the defense.

Stands to reason that a competent pathologist would not used the original swab in a DNA test and would not throw away or destroy the residual swab. Regardless of any other considerations they might need to repeat the test themselves, in case it didn't work out properly for technical reasons.

[patinseoul]

I have donned my tin hat and am now ready to throw out my theory based on innuendo, conjecture, misunderstanding, and a total lack of knowledge concerning the thai legal system.

I think this is all headting towards a big version of UP TO YOU!

I think those of us that have been around thailand have experienced the UP TO YOU ! scenario.

It happens when you catch thais in a lie, or shown how silly there argument is, or uncovered their web of deceipt and b-shirt.. /

UP TO YOU resolves nothing, but is the ultimate way to remind you that this is thailand, and your foreign ideas just really don't matter. In other words, if you don't like it, then go home to your country.

There has been WAY to much logical grilling of these policemen. Where's the DNA, why didn't you look at the CCTv, is a magnifying glass sufficent to spot fingerprints etc etc.

I mean come on, these guys are not cops like OUR perception of cops. These guys just want to get backto their real jobs of extorting money from migrants, planting dope on foreigners to get big cash payouts, etc. It's heading towards an up to you.

No killers will be caught, hopefully the burmese will get to go home, the police and officials will get back to there real work. Plane loads of clueless tourists will keep coming.

Too cynical? UP TO YOU!

[BoristheBlade]

I have donned my tin hat and am now ready to throw out my theory based on innuendo, conjecture, misunderstanding, and a total lack of knowledge concerning the thai legal system.

I think this is all headting towards a big version of UP TO YOU!

I think those of us that have been around thailand have experienced the UP TO YOU ! scenario.

It happens when you catch thais in a lie, or shown how silly there argument is, or uncovered their web of deceipt and b-shirt.. /

UP TO YOU resolves nothing, but is the ultimate way to remind you that this is thailand, and your foreign ideas just really don't matter. In other words, if you don't like it, then go home to your country.

There has been WAY to much logical grilling of these policemen. Where's the DNA, why didn't you look at the CCTv, is a magnifying glass sufficent to spot fingerprints etc etc.

I mean come on, these guys are not cops like OUR perception of cops. These guys just want to get backto their real jobs of extorting money from migrants, planting dope on foreigners to get big cash payouts, etc. It's heading towards an up to you.

No killers will be caught, hopefully the burmese will get to go home, the police and officials will get back to there real work. Plane loads of clueless tourists will keep coming.

Too cynical? UP TO YOU!

Tragic but very, very true

[Thaddeus]

The only way this whole sorry situation could look more like a pantomime would be introducing Christopher Biggins as a surprise witness.

[smedly]

everything the police should have done I/e checked cctv footage from the pier checked out the boatman seen leaving the island after the murder they neglected to do was it blunder upon blunder or rtps plan to fit up these two boys on evidence to fit the crime ?.

I'd be more inclined to think that they did the exact opposite, they looked at all the evidence and did their best to exclude and hide anything that pointed at someone else, as it turns out after doing all that there was virtually nothing left so they had to make stuff up, and the only bit of cctv footage that made it into the public media that was significant to this case was "running man" .......it was released before the cover up started or we would never have seen it

[jackanapes]

it strikes me that the rtp are doing their utmost to ensure the victims parents get a result and I am sure they have the evidence to fit the crime .

[Linky]

it strikes me that the rtp are doing their utmost to ensure the victims parents get a result and I am sure they have the evidence to fit the crime .

If this is the standard of their utmost then they need to find new jobs.

[Jonathan Fairfield]

Defence gets access to evidence for DNA tests in Thailand backpackers murder trial - lawyer

BANGKOK:— A Thai court has given defence lawyers access to evidence for DNA testing in the trial of two Myanmar workers accused of murdering two British tourists in Thailand, a defence lawyer said on Friday.

The investigation has been dogged by allegations of police incompetence and mishandling of evidence, with rights groups saying the accused men are being used as scapegoats since they are foreign migrant workers in Thailand.

British tourists Hannah Witheridge, 23, and David Miller, 24, were killed last September and their bodies were found on a beach on Koh Tao, an island in the Gulf of Thailand popular with backpackers and divers.

Post-mortem examinations showed both suffered severe head wounds and Witheridge was raped.

Read more: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/07/24/uk-thailand-britain-murders-idUKKCN0PY0A820150724

-- Reuters 2015-07-24

[Dogmatix]

Interesting previous post on TV made on the 18th Sept

The bar the victims were at (AC) is EXTREMELY dodgy past 1am. Some dangerous folk frequent there

Interesting insights. Combine that with the fact that KT is a sub-district of Koh Phangan and falls under the responsibility of the police commander there. Add the fact that it falls under one the shonky judicial jurisdiction of Samui's prosecutors and court which has one of the poorest reputations in the land in cases involving foreigners. It is a nothing but a cess pool of drugs, mafia, corruption and violence with no link even to what passes for law and order on the mainland.

[smedly]

Koh Tao police quizzed on why they didn’t look into rumoured bar dispute

Sarah Yuen in Thailand

In testimony in court today, Lieutenant Colonel Kewalee Chanpan, from the forensic division of the Royal Thai Police, said that while the swabs used to obtain the DNA samples from the scene, and the victims’ and suspects’ bodies, would have been destroyed in the testing process, traces of the the DNA extracted from those swabs would still be available for retesting.

The police lieutenant colonel explained that trace DNA material is generally conserved for at least one to two years by the police forensics department.

While she could only speak for her own examination of the alleged murder weapon, some blood-spattered items of clothing, two cigarette butts and a condom found at the scene, she explained to the court that the same should be true for all the DNA samples gathered in the investigation. The officials responsible for the testing of DNA samples taken from the bodies of Ms Witheridge, 23, and 24 year-old David Miller, will appear in court tomorrow. The defence team had already been told by the Royal Thai Police that it could re-examine a few items, including the alleged murder weapon which is a garden hoe. But in court today, based on the new testimony, the defence team was given fresh hope that the more crucial evidence could also be re-examined.

The prosecution claims DNA from the two Burmese suspects, Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Htun, both aged 22, was found on or in Ms Witheridge’s body. The defence has now been told to once again compile a full list of the evidence it wants to retest, which will be submitted to the police forensics department, asking for it to be handed over to the Ministry of Justice Forensics Institute in Bangkok.

The trial adjourns tomorrow for almost a month. Andy Hall, the media spokesperson for the pro bono defence team, said: “I don’t think the court fully understood the testing process before, so when the police said the original samples had been used up, it believed there was nothing left to test. But the testimony of today’s witness has made it clear there would be conserved DNA residue, which could prove crucial to the suspects’ defence.”

Not investigated

The senior police officer investigating the killing of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge in Thailand said today that he had not investigated rumours that she had been involved in an argument with a Thai youth on the night of her death.

Read more: http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/hannah_witheridge_murder_trial_defence_team_hope_to_re_test_crucial_forensic_evidence_1_4164482

"...While she could only speak for her own examination of the alleged murder weapon, some blood-spattered items of clothing, two cigarette butts and a condom found at the scene, she explained to the court that the same should be true for all the DNA samples gathered in the investigation."

....should be true...

From my understanding in many countries this would be stop down in 2 seconds by the defense.

her testimony has added absolutely nothing to these proceedings, why are we now going to have to revisit this session today with the people who are claimed to have actually done the lab work ?

The one good thing about this situation is the fact that the next person to examine the DNA (if it exists) is the generally highly respected uncorruptable Pornthip Rojanasunand

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornthip_Rojanasunand

[Linky]

Defense must be very sure their clients are not guilty to want dna retested. If it comes back and matches the accused they are in trouble. But then again, defense does not have to show prosecution or the court the result of the test. They dont have to prove innocence, the prosecution must prove guilt.

In my humble view all they need to do is prove a break in the chain of custody to have the current dna tossed out.

But TIT so I suppose anything can happen in a Thai court.

[Briggsy]

Police and others in a position to influence the prosecution, either way, may have given up on a conviction of the B2 but will fall back to the position of

1. Keep the farcical legal processes against the B2 going on for as long as possble. (already 10 months) This can be spun out greatly with an appeals process.

2. Use 1 above to deflect any call for any serious further investigation.

3. Keep any investigation, let alone arrest, of people with power and influence who may be involved in this crime off the agenda.

4. Leverage 3 above to gain money, support, political favours, assets from said people who have reasons to fear.

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

I thinks it's time the media contacts the PM for statement .

Saturday 11 October 2014

Thai PM defends investigation into Britons murder

Prayuth Chan-ocha says correct culprits have been caught, after Burmese president demands fair trial for suspects

"Nobody would dare catch the wrong person because this is a case of big international interest.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/10/burma-fair-trial-thailand-backpacker-murders

On the other hand, giving the long corrupt record of the police, we come to expect the sacrificial scapegoat and a many have been offered up in Thailand. Most Thais I know just want this case to go away because it effects their face and pockets. I challenge you to find a Thai that you're not slapping meat to that is participating in the conversation of these murders and truly gives a rats ass about foreigners murdered, assaulted or are mysteriously found dead and accused of suicide.

[smedly]

I'd now be looking on Koh Tao for anyone with an ever increasing long nose

[BritTim]

One hundred sixty pages of people running around like headless chicken screaming "No DNA! Cover-up! Cover-Up!"

Then it turns out they were wrong and what do they do? Jump to the next set of speculation and conjecture.

Some people never learn.

The testimony today stated that the DNA evidence should still exist (what I, for one, have been saying for weeks). The defense has been asked yet again to list what it wants to retest. Of course, they have already indicated this many times over the last few months (while the samples were sitting and degrading) and were promised a (belated) answer on this request by July 8. We will see what the RTP and court say when the samples are once again requested tomorrow.

It is worth noting that the defense has also requested photos of the autopsies and chains of custody of the DNA samples. They have been obstructed in receiving those also.

[Wadan]

It is evident of the large scale corruption, lies, cover up and framing that is part of this case. These are bad enough. Now what is becoming even worse and alarming is for this charade to continue. If this country and its justice system has even a small amount of credibility, they will get of this save face sillyness and do the honourable thing. let the poor innocent guys go. give them some compensation for unlawful imprisonment and charging and get this corrupt filth of policemen behind bars where they belong.

[BritTim]

On the other hand, giving the long corrupt record of the police, we come to expect the sacrificial scapegoat and a many have been offered up in Thailand. Most Thais I know just want this case to go away because it effects their face and pockets. I challenge you to find a Thai that you're not slapping meat to that is participating in the conversation of these murders and truly gives a rats ass about foreigners murdered, assaulted or are mysteriously found dead and accused of suicide.

More than a grain of truth in this, but overstated. What about the folks at CSI LA?

[stephenterry]

One hundred sixty pages of people running around like headless chicken screaming "No DNA! Cover-up! Cover-Up!"

Then it turns out they were wrong and what do they do? Jump to the next set of speculation and conjecture.

Some people never learn.

The testimony today stated that the DNA evidence should still exist (what I, for one, have been saying for weeks). The defense has been asked yet again to list what it wants to retest. Of course, they have already indicated this many times over the last few months (while the samples were sitting and degrading) and were promised a (belated) answer on this request by July 8. We will see what the RTP and court say when the samples are once again requested tomorrow.

It is worth noting that the defense has also requested photos of the autopsies and chains of custody of the DNA samples. They have been obstructed in receiving those also.

Maybe the key DNA samples will not be available, again. Really, they only have to retest semen samples from the female victim to the B2. (In an ideal world.)

[MockingJay]

The court in Koh Samui heard that the senior investigating police chief and his officers did not believe the killer would have taken that boat, which left an hour or so after the estimated time of death of the pair.

"We have the footage, but we never checked it," Police Colonel Cherdpong said.

Interesting that the officer was quoted as saying "the killer" (Singular) and "did not believe the killer would have taken that boat". Does this boil down to, he knows the killer took another boat.? Or is this just another piece of reporting lost in translation.?

Good one!

[StealthEnergiser]

[Linky]

Defense must be very sure their clients are not guilty to want dna retested. If it comes back and matches the accused they are in trouble. But then again, defense does not have to show prosecution or the court the result of the test. They dont have to prove innocence, the prosecution must prove guilt.

In my humble view all they need to do is prove a break in the chain of custody to have the current dna tossed out.

But TIT so I suppose anything can happen in a Thai court.

Perhaps they DO know what the Brits have up their sleeve....

Ahh yes, forgot about that. Interesting times ahead.

[StealthEnergiser]

[BritTim]

Defense must be very sure their clients are not guilty to want dna retested. If it comes back and matches the accused they are in trouble. But then again, defense does not have to show prosecution or the court the result of the test. They dont have to prove innocence, the prosecution must prove guilt.

In my humble view all they need to do is prove a break in the chain of custody to have the current dna tossed out.

But TIT so I suppose anything can happen in a Thai court.

In my humble view all they need to do is prove a break in the chain of custody to have the current dna tossed out.

One of the key things the defense is being refused access to is the chain of custody documentation.

[stephenterry]

snip

snip

OK -- I made a comment last March that I don't think -- if the B2 are not complicit -- then the Powers-that-be will not be able to pull it off. And I'm going to stick by the comment. And that this is a murder trial with the world media on site and that that is a different scenario than usual.

Okay, accepted. Now let's leave it like that.

[Blackfox]

As another previously posted, it'll be a huge travesty and miscarriage of justice should a repeat of the Kirsty Jones case reoccur when the UK FCO have the potential to remedy an unacceptable, repugnant and unjust situation.

Thai style "up to you", I just hope will not cut it in this case.

Having Lieutenant Colonel Kewalee Chanpan, from the forensic division of the Royal Thai Police exercise a degree of professionalism (as reported) will hopefully add significant credibility to this sham trial we see thus far.

The Generals "Article 44 of the interim constitution imposed after last year's coup to solve problems quickly."

Get some <deleted> balls General and right this case or you won't have any friends in the west.

How does a gathering of 5 or less westerners petitioning the military to right this extreme incompetence? A few nights or months in Klong Prem I guess and no more than a "10,000 Baht fine". Bullshit. Extortion with batons behind closed doors, no CCTV and the pricks demanding 100,000B or more.

I genuinely hope the British set diplomacy aside and impact on this case even at arms length.

I'm well aware they cannot have direct input, but influence yes.

I was the same age as David twenty years ago when on Tao.

I hope western media give this case suitable exposure it warrants, as many will have their sons, daughters, sisters, and brothers visiting this place.

It's time for the world to know the truth of Thailand, it's unfortunate for it to be at the great cost of human life.

My thoughts are with the families who lost their son and daughter in the most brutal and unforgiving way.

[StealthEnergiser]