Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[HUH]

It would definitely speed things up, if you knew what the results were in advance.

First they say they don't have the technology to process the DNA to the standard required so state it would be sent to Singapore, then we discover it was never sent there and instead all the DNA was tested in the RTP Hospital Forensics in Bangkok, now we discover it was tested in surprisingly quick time and thats the officer even admitting that. We also know that when DNA testing is carried out in this way when there are 2 possible attackers then the process is much more complicated because of contamination.

We now hear that there are possibly trace samples left for testing. Really, lets see on that one. The Judge gave permission for the hoe, bags and she to be tested in the last session on the 9th or 10th July and that still hasn't happened.

I have serious doubts the defense will get to retest the important items:

Although the forensic witness said today that all genetic material is replicated as a matter of protocol in the police lab, she did not specifically confirm which samples can be retrieved for further examination. http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1437661326

As mentioned in this other tweet, little point of a retest if the chain of custody cannot be established and the trace samples are contaminated.

https://twitter.com/pakhead/status/624225098141011968

Hey shills take a look at whats happening to your perfect case!!!!! Realize when your on a sinking ship or go down with it your choice!!

[apetley]

what I don't get is the sheer lack of cctv footage from 2am onwards, the only thing shown was the running man which in my view would never have been released if it wasn't for the original transferred cop

surely there must be footage of B3 going to the shop for more beer before heading off to see his GF

I will even lay money on it that there is footage of B1 and B2 leaving the beach area at about 3am

although granted having never been there I don't know the layout of the place

anyone with google earth that knows the layout could you perhaps point out a few landmarks and the location of AC bar and the murder area

https://www.google.co.th/maps/@10.0891645,99.8258572,159m/data=!3m1!1e3

Muang Muang went back to their own room to get, IIRC, a bottle of wine back to the beach, he didn't go to a store.

Personally I find it hard to believe that three men drinking three bottles of beer and one bottle of wine among them would end up too drunk to remember anything.

My Thai father in law is unconscious after less than half a can of Leo.

[abitmiffed]

what I don't get is the sheer lack of cctv footage from 2am onwards, the only thing shown was the running man which in my view would never have been released if it wasn't for the original transferred cop

surely there must be footage of B3 going to the shop for more beer before heading off to see his GF

I will even lay money on it that there is footage of B1 and B2 leaving the beach area at about 3am

although granted having never been there I don't know the layout of the place

anyone with google earth that knows the layout could you perhaps point out a few landmarks and the location of AC bar and the murder area

https://www.google.co.th/maps/@10.0891645,99.8258572,159m/data=!3m1!1e3

Muang Muang went back to their own room to get, IIRC, a bottle of wine back to the beach, he didn't go to a store.

Personally I find it hard to believe that three men drinking three bottles of beer and one bottle of wine among them would end up too drunk to remember anything.

My Thai father in law is unconscious after less than half a can of Leo.

Yes my wife too....half o bottle of Smirnoff ice and she is done for the night...

So he really doesn't know the capabilities of Thai drinkers yet.

1 can = guidiness

1.5 cans = paranoid stares

2 cans and above = rocky Balboa

3 to 5 cans usually end in serious altercations.

[docshock13]

So far, sparse facts that fuels speculation. Answers to both the alleged altercation, and a clearer DNA insight into the UK autopsy reports should provide more clarity. The defence have two UK witnesses and the coroner's report (as I understand it).

As far as the RTP are concerned, their only interest is to gain a conviction, not carry out a proper investigation. Hence their ineptitude of following up what would be second nature in other countries. And a judgement that could be politically motivated, so as not to rock the boat. Hence the likelihood (as hinted by the lead judge) of a resumption of the case in the Appeals court.

Does this mean that if he considers it a 'mistrial' in this court either both, or one of the prosecution or defence can appeal? And what would happen to the B2? Stay in confinement? Perhaps someone could clarify?

That's the way I read it. If the accused are acquitted or it is declared a mistrial they will remain in custody until the prosecution's appeal request is either rejected or accepted. If the appelate court grants the prosecution an appeal, the accused will remain in custody until the appelate court makes a judgment. I imagine they could be there for years if that is the case.

[Dogmatix]

what I don't get is the sheer lack of cctv footage from 2am onwards, the only thing shown was the running man which in my view would never have been released if it wasn't for the original transferred cop

surely there must be footage of B3 going to the shop for more beer before heading off to see his GF

I will even lay money on it that there is footage of B1 and B2 leaving the beach area at about 3am

although granted having never been there I don't know the layout of the place

anyone with google earth that knows the layout could you perhaps point out a few landmarks and the location of AC bar and the murder area

https://www.google.co.th/maps/@10.0891645,99.8258572,159m/data=!3m1!1e3

Muang Muang went back to their own room to get, IIRC, a bottle of wine back to the beach, he didn't go to a store.

Personally I find it hard to believe that three men drinking three bottles of beer and one bottle of wine among them would end up too drunk to remember anything.

My Thai father in law is unconscious after less than half a can of Leo.

Yes my wife too....half o bottle of Smirnoff ice and she is done for the night...

So he really doesn't know the capabilities of Thai drinkers yet.

1 can = guidiness

1.5 cans = paranoid stares

2 cans and above = rocky Balboa

3 to 5 cans usually end in serious altercations.

Remember that there is a direct relationship of body weight to ease of getting drunk, or more specifically the amount of blood in your bloodstream. These guys are midgets.

[Linky]

So far, sparse facts that fuels speculation. Answers to both the alleged altercation, and a clearer DNA insight into the UK autopsy reports should provide more clarity. The defence have two UK witnesses and the coroner's report (as I understand it).

As far as the RTP are concerned, their only interest is to gain a conviction, not carry out a proper investigation. Hence their ineptitude of following up what would be second nature in other countries. And a judgement that could be politically motivated, so as not to rock the boat. Hence the likelihood (as hinted by the lead judge) of a resumption of the case in the Appeals court.

Does this mean that if he considers it a 'mistrial' in this court either both, or one of the prosecution or defence can appeal? And what would happen to the B2? Stay in confinement? Perhaps someone could clarify?

That's the way I read it. If the accused are acquitted or it is declared a mistrial they will remain in custody until the prosecution's appeal request is either rejected or accepted. If the appelate court grants the prosecution an appeal, the accused will remain in custody until the appelate court makes a judgment. I imagine they could be there for years if that is the case.

Prosecution have had a long time to prepare, then re prepare a number of times, yet have still refused to provide items for dna testing and been very evasive with evidence.

That being the case there is no way they should be allowed any appeal as the only point of the appeal would be to say they were incompetent but let us do it again so we can be less incompetent, promise.

[Linky]

JTJ, we see you down the bottom reading this thread, a bit silent on how the evidence is going though.

[bamukloy]

I hope the defense will have some time tomorrow to ask a few questions about the CCTV, how come there is absolutely no footage from inside the bars and from the beach side (there are cameras there... are they conveniently not functional ?).

At the beginning of the investigation the UK offered some help to analyze the CCTV, it wasn't accepted of course...

I also find it strange that they had to mention the smallness of the running man (who is actually not so small when you compare him to the door in the background) and the phone records from Nomsod in Bangkok (did they provide the documents, how come absolutely nothing is transparent?) to try to show the running man was burmese (didn't Mon say it was himself by the way ? wasnt it mentioned?).

a few strange things can be gleaned from the policemans own testimony:

He says he searched hundreds of hours of Cctv and was able to accertain nobody harrassed her..

YET he goes on to say he assumes Hanna &David left AC bar through the beach exit (as there is no CCTV in the bar)

1. How does he know no-one pestered her while in the AC bar?

2. Seeing by his own admission "presumed" they left through the beach exit, he couldnt possibly know if someone/others, followed them out soonly thereafter.

3. One thing for sure...the B2 didnt follow them out of the bar as it was reported it was their night off.

[catsanddogs]

I'd now be looking on Koh Tao for anyone with an ever increasing long nose

And Bangkok. And Italy maybe.

[stephenterry]

So far, sparse facts that fuels speculation. Answers to both the alleged altercation, and a clearer DNA insight into the UK autopsy reports should provide more clarity. The defence have two UK witnesses and the coroner's report (as I understand it).

As far as the RTP are concerned, their only interest is to gain a conviction, not carry out a proper investigation. Hence their ineptitude of following up what would be second nature in other countries. And a judgement that could be politically motivated, so as not to rock the boat. Hence the likelihood (as hinted by the lead judge) of a resumption of the case in the Appeals court.

Does this mean that if he considers it a 'mistrial' in this court either both, or one of the prosecution or defence can appeal? And what would happen to the B2? Stay in confinement? Perhaps someone could clarify?

That's the way I read it. If the accused are acquitted or it is declared a mistrial they will remain in custody until the prosecution's appeal request is either rejected or accepted. If the appelate court grants the prosecution an appeal, the accused will remain in custody until the appelate court makes a judgment. I imagine they could be there for years if that is the case.

I've ticked I 'like' it but there's not much to like even if the accused are acquitted and the appeals court accept the prosecution's request. Which no doubt they would do, to prevent any re-opening of the case. I just hope that we keep on banging away with the injustice of it all.

[Thesticle]

The AC bar was the last place they were seen alive. Do the police not think it would be wise to investigate what went on during their time there? What about the rumor of an argument in the bar, is this not relevant? We know they have the cctv of everybody that entered from the main entrance, did they not try to track down the punters and interview them for possible leads?. It seems illogical that they can say the murders weren't pre meditated when they don't even know the scenario of the victims last point of contact. The polices handling of this case has been incompetent at best and dishonest at worst. I'm pretty sure heads are going to role, serious lose of face for the RTP, no wonder there is very little in the that press.One thing I hope comes from this case is there more oversight in future cases when it comes to dealing with the police and people are more voracious when dealing with them.

[SamuiRes]

 

TV please sort out your links via line as when I click on the headline I want to read I have to troll through sometimes a hundred post before I get what link YOU send to my phone......

 

Agreed - followed three different links which all took me to the same place.

[realenglish1]

As I have always said KEY STONE COPS

This is a real life example of KEY STONE COPS

I thought it was just in the movies. Evidently not

[realenglish1]

As I have always said KEY STONE COPS

This is a real life example of KEY STONE COPS

I thought it was just in the movies. Evidently not

[simonuk]

"We have the footage, but we never checked it," Police Colonel Cherdpong said.

We'll find that 'have' will actually be 'had'.

Thai language is not precise when using verb tenses. Plus, in order to maintain their despicable cover-up, RTP cannot allow the beach/pier footage, as well as hundreds of hours of other pertinent footage, to be seen by the defense or us little people.

100% wrong. Just because Pasa Thai doesn't conjugate verbs doesn't mean it's imprecise to past, present or future.

Past = dai

Present = gamlang

Future = yang

Thus, dai mee = had (past tense)

And mee= have (present tense)

The "communication issues" isn't the translation, it's the source 555

[catsanddogs]

“The police are terrible and unjust,” Wai Phyo told TIME in Koh Samui Prison prior to the trial. “And the judge will just act to try and protect his country.”

http://time.com/3970699/thailand-koh-tao-murders-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-latest/

[HUH]

The real life side of things again, yesterdays collection of Davids Degree from his University by his mum

The family of a student murdered on a Thai island have collected their son's posthumous first class degree from the university where he studied. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-jersey-33632657

[MyrH]

Koh Tao police quizzed on why they didn’t look into rumoured bar dispute

Sarah Yuen in Thailand

In testimony in court today, Lieutenant Colonel Kewalee Chanpan, from the forensic division of the Royal Thai Police, said that while the swabs used to obtain the DNA samples from the scene, and the victims’ and suspects’ bodies, would have been destroyed in the testing process, traces of the the DNA extracted from those swabs would still be available for retesting.

The police lieutenant colonel explained that trace DNA material is generally conserved for at least one to two years by the police forensics department.

While she could only speak for her own examination of the alleged murder weapon, some blood-spattered items of clothing, two cigarette butts and a condom found at the scene, she explained to the court that the same should be true for all the DNA samples gathered in the investigation. The officials responsible for the testing of DNA samples taken from the bodies of Ms Witheridge, 23, and 24 year-old David Miller, will appear in court tomorrow. The defence team had already been told by the Royal Thai Police that it could re-examine a few items, including the alleged murder weapon which is a garden hoe. But in court today, based on the new testimony, the defence team was given fresh hope that the more crucial evidence could also be re-examined.

The prosecution claims DNA from the two Burmese suspects, Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Htun, both aged 22, was found on or in Ms Witheridge’s body. The defence has now been told to once again compile a full list of the evidence it wants to retest, which will be submitted to the police forensics department, asking for it to be handed over to the Ministry of Justice Forensics Institute in Bangkok.

The trial adjourns tomorrow for almost a month. Andy Hall, the media spokesperson for the pro bono defence team, said: “I don’t think the court fully understood the testing process before, so when the police said the original samples had been used up, it believed there was nothing left to test. But the testimony of today’s witness has made it clear there would be conserved DNA residue, which could prove crucial to the suspects’ defence.”

Not investigated

The senior police officer investigating the killing of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge in Thailand said today that he had not investigated rumours that she had been involved in an argument with a Thai youth on the night of her death.

Read more: http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/hannah_witheridge_murder_trial_defence_team_hope_to_re_test_crucial_forensic_evidence_1_4164482

"...While she could only speak for her own examination of the alleged murder weapon, some blood-spattered items of clothing, two cigarette butts and a condom found at the scene, she explained to the court that the same should be true for all the DNA samples gathered in the investigation."

....should be true...

From my understanding in many countries this would be stop down in 2 seconds by the defense.

her testimony has added absolutely nothing to these proceedings, why are we now going to have to revisit this session today with the people who are claimed to have actually done the lab work ?

The one good thing about this situation is the fact that the next person to examine the DNA (if it exists) is the generally highly respected uncorruptable Pornthip Rojanasunand

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornthip_Rojanasunand

Yes it will be interesting to see what she finds out.

But one question that I keep asking myself regarding their visit at the AC... what did Hannah's friend have to say? From what I understood David went there alone but Hannah came in with her friends. Can't they testify and tell if there was or was not a bar dispute? From what we read in the media the friends haven't made any comment... that's weird...

[elgordo38]

I've said many times if this is a case made of whole-cloth, with any kind of reasonable media access, the Prosecution will not be able to pull it off. Media access, at least so far, is greater than many on here have predicted.

Not to many media getting access to the small courtroom.

[diehard60]

Koh Tao murder trail: Lawyer claims police failed to check CCTV

The defence lawyer in the Koh Tao murder trial said police had not examined CCTV footage near where two Brits were killed in September.

BANGKOK: Thai police failed to check CCTV footage from the only pier on the island where a pair of British tourists were murdered last year, a lawyer for the two Myanmar nationals accused of the killings said Thursday (Jul 23).

Migrant workers Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Tun are on trial for the murder of 24-year-old David Miller and the rape and murder of Hannah Witheridge, 23, on southern Koh Tao island in September.

Both men have pleaded not guilty and face the death penalty if convicted over a case which has tarnished Thailand's reputation as a tourist paradise and seen the police accused of bungling the investigation.

Under cross-examination Thursday a senior investigating police officer, Colonel Cherdpong Chiewpreecha, told a Koh Samui court that CCTV footage from the pier had not been examined after the double murders.

The pier is close to the beach were the battered bodies of the British holidaymakers were found and is the main route to and from the resort island.

"I asked whether police checked CCTV footage. He (the witness) replied no and that police had collected the footage but investigators thought it wasn't relevant," defence lawyer Nakhon Chomphuchat told AFP after the morning session.

Read more: http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asiapacific/koh-tao-murder-trail/2003156.html (AFP)

Did not look at it but knew it was not relevant. WOW!. The boys in brown are really good aren't they.

[catsanddogs]

The AC bar was the last place they were seen alive. Do the police not think it would be wise to investigate what went on during their time there? What about the rumor of an argument in the bar, is this not relevant? We know they have the cctv of everybody that entered from the main entrance, did they not try to track down the punters and interview them for possible leads?. It seems illogical that they can say the murders weren't pre meditated when they don't even know the scenario of the victims last point of contact. The polices handling of this case has been incompetent at best and dishonest at worst. I'm pretty sure heads are going to role, serious lose of face for the RTP, no wonder there is very little in the that press.One thing I hope comes from this case is there more oversight in future cases when it comes to dealing with the police and people are more voracious when dealing with them.

Like. There is a possibility Hannah could have been raped at the AC bar. There was talk months ago about Hannah not taking her phone to the beach with her (it seems to have been left with one of her friends). She has been reported to have entered the bar around an hour before David did. Anything could have happened in that bar eg - she went to the loo alone and got attacked somewhere in the building. But wouldn't the friends be concerned at her absence? There will no doubt be some pertinent information on the phones of the friends of that morning. There seems to have been nothing said about the purse she also had with her which was on the table in the photo in Choppers bar. What happened to this I wonder? The fact that the RTP are not going to provide any evidence to show that Hannah and David left the bar together leads me to speculate that they didn't which brings me back to the assumption that David went looking for her. I can't believe that none of their friends would not do everything they can to get justice for them. Hopefully they are doing everything they can and it's just that we do not know about it yet.

[fayou]

Koh Tao police quizzed on why they didn’t look into rumoured bar dispute

Sarah Yuen in Thailand

In testimony in court today, Lieutenant Colonel Kewalee Chanpan, from the forensic division of the Royal Thai Police, said that while the swabs used to obtain the DNA samples from the scene, and the victims’ and suspects’ bodies, would have been destroyed in the testing process, traces of the the DNA extracted from those swabs would still be available for retesting.

The police lieutenant colonel explained that trace DNA material is generally conserved for at least one to two years by the police forensics department.

While she could only speak for her own examination of the alleged murder weapon, some blood-spattered items of clothing, two cigarette butts and a condom found at the scene, she explained to the court that the same should be true for all the DNA samples gathered in the investigation. The officials responsible for the testing of DNA samples taken from the bodies of Ms Witheridge, 23, and 24 year-old David Miller, will appear in court tomorrow. The defence team had already been told by the Royal Thai Police that it could re-examine a few items, including the alleged murder weapon which is a garden hoe. But in court today, based on the new testimony, the defence team was given fresh hope that the more crucial evidence could also be re-examined.

The prosecution claims DNA from the two Burmese suspects, Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Htun, both aged 22, was found on or in Ms Witheridge’s body. The defence has now been told to once again compile a full list of the evidence it wants to retest, which will be submitted to the police forensics department, asking for it to be handed over to the Ministry of Justice Forensics Institute in Bangkok.

The trial adjourns tomorrow for almost a month. Andy Hall, the media spokesperson for the pro bono defence team, said: “I don’t think the court fully understood the testing process before, so when the police said the original samples had been used up, it believed there was nothing left to test. But the testimony of today’s witness has made it clear there would be conserved DNA residue, which could prove crucial to the suspects’ defence.”

Not investigated

The senior police officer investigating the killing of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge in Thailand said today that he had not investigated rumours that she had been involved in an argument with a Thai youth on the night of her death.

Read more: http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/hannah_witheridge_murder_trial_defence_team_hope_to_re_test_crucial_forensic_evidence_1_4164482

"...While she could only speak for her own examination of the alleged murder weapon, some blood-spattered items of clothing, two cigarette butts and a condom found at the scene, she explained to the court that the same should be true for all the DNA samples gathered in the investigation."

....should be true...

From my understanding in many countries this would be stop down in 2 seconds by the defense.

her testimony has added absolutely nothing to these proceedings, why are we now going to have to revisit this session today with the people who are claimed to have actually done the lab work ?

The one good thing about this situation is the fact that the next person to examine the DNA (if it exists) is the generally highly respected uncorruptable Pornthip Rojanasunand

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornthip_Rojanasunand

Yes it will be interesting to see what she finds out.

But one question that I keep asking myself regarding their visit at the AC... what did Hannah's friend have to say? From what I understood David went there alone but Hannah came in with her friends. Can't they testify and tell if there was or was not a bar dispute? From what we read in the media the friends haven't made any comment... that's weird...

They didn't go to the the Bar with David, but saw David? What did Tom Woods, Matt Barratt and Emma Connolly (Madeleine) really see what happend at AC Bar ?

[simonuk]

Koh Tao police quizzed on why they didn’t look into rumoured bar dispute

Sarah Yuen in Thailand

< snip >

Not investigated

The senior police officer investigating the killing of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge in Thailand said today that he had not investigated rumours that she had been involved in an argument with a Thai youth on the night of her death.

Read more: http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/hannah_witheridge_murder_trial_defence_team_hope_to_re_test_crucial_forensic_evidence_1_4164482

Hows this one going to be spun by the shills?

It was a rumor.

All rumors are false?

Many rumors can prove to be clues,leads or tip offs.

No real police would dismiss any rumour without investigation first.

Pathetic dismissal of a credible avenue to investigate .

[catsanddogs]

The real life side of things again, yesterdays collection of Davids Degree from his University by his mum

The family of a student murdered on a Thai island have collected their son's posthumous first class degree from the university where he studied. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-jersey-33632657

That is so very very sad. So sorry for the families who lives have been irreversibly wrecked. For Christ's sake UK government get involved and do what you are supposed to do for your citizens! Am ashamed to be British.

[Halion]

From the onset there was little doubt that this would be a farce,fabricated riddled with supposition and devoid of evidence that could be termed as irrefutable. In short, a typical Thai police soap opera. However in this case these numb nuts have surpassed even themselves and further highlight to all and sundry as to just how incompetent ,nepotistic and corrupt they are. Until they can establish a judicial system far in excess of what the current regime can provide then democracy is little more than rhetoric and a distant dream. Thailand is truly lawless.

[PaPiPuPePo]

That's right. Anything can happen in a Thai court and once its ruling has been issued, it is a criminal offence to criticise it. There are no juries and judges pass judgement and sentence by themselves. Thailand has a civil law system which means that judges do not have to take legal precedents into account but are free to interpret the law in their on way, which may differ substantially from rulings made in other similar cases, sometimes by the same judge. Defendants have no right to know the prosecution's case against them before they are forced to plead when they are usually presented with heavy threats about the consequences of not pleading guilty. When the case goes to trial the prosecution again has no obligation to provide the defence with proper details of its case. Judges are appointed and promoted by the Justice Ministry which means there is no concept of judicial independence at this level of criminal justice, although things may be better at the Supreme Court level. Judges are recruited straight from university, based on connections, not from the ranks of successful and already wealthy barristers, as in the UK. Thai judges earn tiny civil service salaries may end up rather wealthy. Young judges have to cut their teeth in the provinces for years until their connections and other notable attributes can ingratiate them enough with the powers that be to get a plumb court posting in Bangkok where all the big money cases are heard. The system is rotten by design.

And that is why any of the people commenting here that rather than "speculate" they trust the court system to reveal the truth of the case are completely misguided and misinformed (if they're not just being mendacious).

[BritTim]

"We have the footage, but we never checked it," Police Colonel Cherdpong said.

We'll find that 'have' will actually be 'had'.

Thai language is not precise when using verb tenses. Plus, in order to maintain their despicable cover-up, RTP cannot allow the beach/pier footage, as well as hundreds of hours of other pertinent footage, to be seen by the defense or us little people.

100% wrong. Just because Pasa Thai doesn't conjugate verbs doesn't mean it's imprecise to past, present or future.

Past = dai

Present = gamlang

Future = yang

Thus, dai mee = had (past tense)

And mee= have (present tense)

The "communication issues" isn't the translation, it's the source 555

Trouble is that, in spoken speech, Thais have a nasty habit of omitting certain words when the speaker thinks they are unnecessary in context. Words representing tenses like kamlang and dai are classic examples.

[DLang]

Thai face is more important than anything. Absolutely anything.

Sickening.

[JLCrab]

As I have always said KEY STONE COPS

This is a real life example of KEY STONE COPS

I thought it was just in the movies. Evidently not

Actually it's Keystone KOPS.

[chinaski]

I spent 2 weeks on Koh Tao and Phangan with my Thai wife, returned a few days ago. Local people on Phangan told us a lot (less so on Koh Tao but still), but this trial is a joke, apparantly everybody knows who did it, cost his father, a local village head or something, a lot of bribe money (at least 30 million baht, going to the highest levels)

The real culprit will never be jailed.

Koh Tao is all mafia (or how one would like to call it), this is an ugly case but other things happened there. Small island, almost no police. Must have been nice once but now overdeloped, expensive, full of scams.

Phangan is nicer.