Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[KamalaRider]

The victims' bodies were sent back to UK before the B2 were arrested. I would imagine that the British would have examined the bodies for foreign DNA.

It is a simple matter for the defense team to collect DNA from the B2 (presumably during one of many visits) and to have their DNA compared against whatever foreign DNA was collected from the victims' bodies.

Thus assuming that foreign DNA was recovered and none of it matched the suspects' DNA, that could be considered a discrepancy.

I agree! But as you pointed out correctly, they need to get DNA Sample from the accused before they can do this and make a comparison. This is exactly my point to .

So how can you have a "Discrepancy" now between the UK DNA Collected , and the Thai DNA Collected, when they don't have the B2 Sample yet to compare?

For the purposes of proving that the DNA samples were or were not a match to the B2 it would not be necessary to obtain DNA samples from them directly.

We all carry the DNA of our parents. Samples obtained from the parents would be sufficient.

I am not suggesting that this has happened.

No 2 DNA's Match! Not Now! Not Ever!

You can match DNA of a child to a Parent as in many ways they are close. But being close only counts when you are throwing Horse Shoes or Grenades. Being close doesn't count as Evidence in a Court of Law.

If what you said was true then many DNA Matches they have matched for Crimes could actually be the Father, or Mother, or even a Twin Brother.

Now you need to start reading material about DNA, start with http://dna-view.com/profile.htm

The chance is 1/7000 for someone other than the suspect to produce the observed evidence according to this site, maybe wikipedia also could help you become wiser before you make definite statements.

[KamalaRider]

Kamala, I doubt I'm the only one wanting to know this, but is that really the dog's tongue, ....or a piece of bublle gum in a trick photo, or....?

Photoshop

[arrowsdawdle]

The coppers really are making bigger fools of themselves (if that's possible).

It is probably bigger than the coppers, who are dancing to somebody else's music as typically happens in LOS.

[26vinny]

Exhume the bodies back in blighty get proper evidence, that will at least get closure for the family,and let this kangaroo court continue, B2 will never get justice. nomsod bought his alibi,most of death island knows it was him, just to scared to say anything, I AM ALREADY BOYCOTTING THAILAND because of this and a lot of my mates and their mates are as well. LIFE IS CHEAP,here, keep this in the news, and on here, it is the only way the B2 boys will have any chance.

ANDY HALL we salute you

[whaleboneman]

No 2 DNA's Match! Not Now! Not Ever!

You can match DNA of a child to a Parent as in many ways they are close. But being close only counts when you are throwing Horse Shoes or Grenades. Being close doesn't count as Evidence in a Court of Law.

If what you said was true then many DNA Matches they have matched for Crimes could actually be the Father, or Mother, or even a Twin Brother.

GOLDBUGGY,

You misunderstand me.

We all have 50% of our mother's DNA and 50% of our father's DNA. If you take a sample from each parent and compare it to a DNA sample from the scene of a crime it will be apparent whether or not the child of those parents could be a possible match.

I am not suggesting that the child will have identical DNA to that of either parent.

If that is true what you say, then there is also 50% of the Father's DNA, and 50% of the Mother's DNA that the accused doesn't have. So how do you scene that from the Parents to get the exact match with the accused?

I am sorry but I don't buy this. Your Theory and Revolutionary Idea may makes sense to you but not to me. I have never heard of anyone accused of Murder at a Murder Trial by using only the Parents DNA as Evidence, and I doubt you have either.

Let me try again.

50% from the mother + 50% from the father = 100%. The child does not have any DNA except that provided by the parents.

You said that the UK police could not dispute the DNA match without obtaining DNA from the accused.

Here is what I am saying- If the UK police have 'foreign' DNA samples taken from the deceased AND they have DNA samples from each biological parent of the accused they can carry out a comparison.

If the 'foreign' sample does not match to 50% of the mother AND 50% of the father then the 'foreign' sample can not be from their son.

If the 'foreign' sample does match to 50% of the father AND 50% of the mother then the 'foreign' sample MUST be from their son.

That IS evidence. It is 100% certain.

Of course you have never heard of an accused being convicted on the evidence of parents DNA. A DNA sample would always be taken from the accused - but in this case many people are suggesting that the sample from the accused has been tampered with. I am suggesting that there is a way to corroborate the DNA sample without access to the accused.

(In this context 'foreign' means not belonging to the deceased)

Sorry to disagree but there would be a third possibility: it's not their son. That is why DNA evidence must be from the accused. Not 100% certain.

[boomerangutang]

No 2 DNA's Match! Not Now! Not Ever!

Identical twins and Siamese twins match.

[arrowsdawdle]

So much talk regarding the DNA testing, maybe the focus should be on how the DNA was obtained, by who, and the sequence of events handling etc. prior to testing?

well yes of course and I agree but the point I'm trying to understand is this -

Lets suppose for a moment that there is a knock at the door and you open it and there are police standing there who then proceed to arrest you for murder, there has to be a path that led them to come to your door, it is part of an investigative process that made them think you were implicated and also must follow certain legal procedures and will become part of the case if it ever gets to a court, this is before any DNA or questioning has taken place, in the west you need to have a very strong reason for knocking that door and implicating/questioning someone in connection with a murder, if procedure is not followed then you can forget the rest, many cases have been thrown out of court in the west because of procedural failure regardless of any evidence

so my question above - what led the Thai police to the door of these two accused ?

Could it have been the island's headman by any chance?

They selected the path of least resistance...

[Mooner]

So the DNA is in Bkk? All the time that has passed. Never thought to request the most important evidence?

Comical, embarrassing!

[boomerangutang]

Exhume the bodies back in blighty get proper evidence, that will at least get closure for the family,and let this kangaroo court continue, B2 will never get justice. nomsod bought his alibi,most of death island knows it was him, just to scared to say anything, I AM ALREADY BOYCOTTING THAILAND because of this and a lot of my mates and their mates are as well. LIFE IS CHEAP,here, keep this in the news, and on here, it is the only way the B2 boys will have any chance.

ANDY HALL we salute you

No need to exhume.

One of the Brit Coroner's job descriptions, when she gets a body of a Brit sent from overseas, is to determine such DNA data. It's quite likely she did that regarding the KT crime. What we (those of us seeking justice) are hoping - is her office will publish the data - to clear the air. It appears the Coroner's Office has communication with the defense team, but everyone is being so secretive, it's hard to know what's up or down.

Her office is probably very busy now, with the tragedy of Brits murdered in Tunisia, but that's a different topic.

[boomerangutang]

So the DNA is in Bkk? All the time that has passed. Never thought to request the most important evidence?

Comical, embarrassing!

Regardless of where it's stored, it's likely being kept in the trusted care of the RTP - the very organization which deperately wants to convict. Go figure.

....or maybe some of it is still in the Headman's fridge, alongside the jar of roasted crickets.

[chickenslegs]

Sorry to disagree but there would be a third possibility: it's not their son. That is why DNA evidence must be from the accused. Not 100% certain.

That is why I stated "biological parents".

It's an academic discussion anyway. The accused are still available to provide DNA samples and the defense team should be allowed to take them for comparison. I would be very surprised if they haven't already done so, covertly.

[KamalaRider]

Meanwhile, Parinya Sirisarakarn, a member of the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC), yesterday gave new information about forensic evidence and claims made by the two suspects - Maung Saw and Maung Win - whom he had met.[/size]

He said they told him they had not used condoms while sexually violating the female victim, contrary to earlier police statements that sperm carrying their DNA was found on the outside of condoms.[/size]

It is claimed by Parinya that they said this. To put it to rest, let's see if the prosecution will call upon Parinya for his testimony.

The Human rights person that said they said this is Thai and don't speak Burmese. He thus used a translator to speak to them. If the translator made a slight mistake in translation - for example they said - you couldn't have found our DNA because we don't use condoms - instead of the above. His statement you mentioned is not even hear say and cant be used against the accused. The letters from the accused is also not admissable.

There's a lot written about Mr. Parinya Sirisarakarn and his "work" as a human rights protector. Just Google his name and you'll see for yourself why you can't trust anything what he says or writes.

[evadgib]

So the DNA is in Bkk? All the time that has passed. Never thought to request the most important evidence?

Comical, embarrassing!

For a police faorce in the 21st century to have less forensic awareness than the Bow Sreet runners in the 19th beggars belief

[Dogmatix]

Funny that evidence samples in the US can be produced for DNA testing for crimes that were committed decades ago, long before DNA testing existed, but in Thailand the police, who control the whole process of evidence collecting and forensics themselves, are unable to produce a sample from a murder committed less than a year ago.

I bet they would have no problem producing the samples from the test conducted by the police chef in front of the media that proved the the headman and his son are related. Perhaps the defence would be happy to retest those instead.

[chickenslegs]

GOLDBUGGY,

You misunderstand me.

We all have 50% of our mother's DNA and 50% of our father's DNA. If you take a sample from each parent and compare it to a DNA sample from the scene of a crime it will be apparent whether or not the child of those parents could be a possible match.

I am not suggesting that the child will have identical DNA to that of either parent.

If that is true what you say, then there is also 50% of the Father's DNA, and 50% of the Mother's DNA that the accused doesn't have. So how do you scene that from the Parents to get the exact match with the accused?

I am sorry but I don't buy this. Your Theory and Revolutionary Idea may makes sense to you but not to me. I have never heard of anyone accused of Murder at a Murder Trial by using only the Parents DNA as Evidence, and I doubt you have either.

Let me try again.

50% from the mother + 50% from the father = 100%. The child does not have any DNA except that provided by the parents.

You said that the UK police could not dispute the DNA match without obtaining DNA from the accused.

Here is what I am saying- If the UK police have 'foreign' DNA samples taken from the deceased AND they have DNA samples from each biological parent of the accused they can carry out a comparison.

If the 'foreign' sample does not match to 50% of the mother AND 50% of the father then the 'foreign' sample can not be from their son.

If the 'foreign' sample does match to 50% of the father AND 50% of the mother then the 'foreign' sample MUST be from their son.

That IS evidence. It is 100% certain.

Of course you have never heard of an accused being convicted on the evidence of parents DNA. A DNA sample would always be taken from the accused - but in this case many people are suggesting that the sample from the accused has been tampered with. I am suggesting that there is a way to corroborate the DNA sample without access to the accused.

(In this context 'foreign' means not belonging to the deceased)

Your statements show you do not work in DNA testing, I do. You are correct, a person only gets DNA from their mother and father,.and although it is usually 50:50, it can be slightly different through correction mechanisms in early embryo.

Furthermore they are using a set of paternity linkage markers which are repeat sequences, and the number of repeats can change between generations.

So a little less than a 100% match can still mean a high probability it is their son, and a 100% match is not 100% certain, but again just a very high probability it is their son.

Add into the mix that the parents claiming to be the biological parents may not be (especially the father).

This type of DNA testing is about probability, not about certainty

I stand corrected, thank you for your explanation.

[Dogmatix]

Exhume the bodies back in blighty get proper evidence, that will at least get closure for the family,and let this kangaroo court continue, B2 will never get justice. nomsod bought his alibi,most of death island knows it was him, just to scared to say anything, I AM ALREADY BOYCOTTING THAILAND because of this and a lot of my mates and their mates are as well. LIFE IS CHEAP,here, keep this in the news, and on here, it is the only way the B2 boys will have any chance.

ANDY HALL we salute you

Sadly the family statements were suggesting they believed that Thai courts, prosecutors and police were to be trusted just like the ones at home, so media should just sit back and let justice take its course. I expect they are already starting to have doubts after seeing police clowns testify and seeing how the court treats the media - no note writing allowed etc.

[Gweiloman]

In reply to JLCrab Post #353:-

The point is, which has already been stated, is that a translator working for Sky News has been warned off by presumably, the Thai mafia from Koh Tao. Whether that translator was working for Sky News, Reuters, the BBC, or ISIS is irrelevant - what are the RTP doing about it? And why has the roti seller been appointed as official translator for the court? Was the translator that was working for Sky News one and the same? (Sorry JD - conspiracy theory!)And if he is appearing as a witness for the prosecution, how is it possible that he can be appointed as official translator to the court?

So you're saying maybe SKY News is a bunch of wimps who will let their translator be frightened off by some goons from another island where the trial isn't taking place? Did the SKY News camera crew not have a photo or video of their translator being warned off?

Yawn.

What is the point that you are trying to make? That SKY news "invented" this story? Even if so, so what? Bears no relevance to the trial.

What possible advantage is gained by the Mafia from Koh Tao coming to Koh Samui and threatening a translator? Threatening an eye witness to the murder, maybe. And Reuters -- whose reports are the basis of many of the UK newspaper reports -- has a Thai Chief Correspondent who writes her dispatches in English and doesn't need a translator.

In this instance, I agree with you. I don't see any possible advantage for the prosecution either, other than the possibility that the so called Mafia do not want too much to be revealed to the international press.

Just think; if none of the international press had any translators, there would be no reporting, right?

[Gweiloman]

Stuff all the amateur Sherlocks - it doesn't matter who did it any more the whole thing is incapable of producing a fair trial no matter WHO you think did it .....trying to pick at evidence and theories is just schoolboy fantasy....it isn't even relevant...any trial of anyone now can be nothing more than a sham

unless they have the DNA taken from the rape. Then they can reexamine the samples taken on the sweep of people and even retest a few who were never really tested.

A possible scenario:

When Hannah's body was returned to the UK, DNA samples were taken. Foreign DNA was discovered, maybe from traces of sperm. This was subsequently compared to the DNA of the B2 and found not to match (it would be an extremely simple matter to obtain the DNA of the B2 even if they were in jail or possibly the DNA of the parents).

This could very well account for the "discrepancy" and is extremely "significant".

As the defense, this is obviously something you would not want to bring to light too early on in the trial (poker players will understand).

[Gweiloman]

What he is saying is that the DNA evidence has been exhausted and there is none left, so lets leave it at that.

Is it a blanket statement, referring to ALL DNA samples, ....or just the cig butt (which is inconsequential in my view). If the blundering cop is referring to all DNA samples, then the RTP and prosecution are in deeper doo doo than imagined.

Even if so, so what? Bears no relevance to the trial.

How about coyotes?

Surely they must still have the original trace of the DNA from the semen found inside Heather that they used to compare the DNA of 200 people on the Island.

What is the problem then - get some independent testers to take blood/saliva samples from the accused and check their DNA against that trace.

Surely?? Do you actually live in Thailand? Have you ever visited? In Thailand, logic, as understood by the Western world, does not exist, thus no knowledgeable expat in Thailand would ever use the word "surely" and "in Thailand" in the same sentence.

[Gweiloman]

Post # 205

"I reckon the boys also know who did it, and while they may have been brave enough to recant their confessions citing duress, they will certainly be too terrified to say who actually did it. I am sure they know how much influence and power is at the hands of the real perps, and being a stuck in that h there jail would not be a safe place for a witness to be"

Should the 2B actually know who committed the murders, I am confident that the Defense Team also know..

Your Right. The 22 Year Old Boys, which in my country we call "Men", know who did it. Easy for them to figure out, if it was them!

At my age, anybody below 40 is a boy or lad to me.

You know they did it, how? Based on the very flimsy and suspect "evidence" of the RTP?

Their Sperm from both of the accused found inside Hannah to me is not "Flimsy Evidence". It is "Incriminating Evidence".

Hannah was only 1 year older than "The Boys", but I do not see anyone make reference to her as "The Girl". In any country they would both be considered Adults, and not Boys, and they are being Tried in an Adult Court, and not in a Juvenile Court. .

Who said the sperm from the accused were found inside Hannah? RTP? I rest my case.

[spacebass]

The evidence is lost .... holey crap. This is a comedy of errors, boys with tight grey uniforms, you are really on the world stage now. The UK news agencies are going to wet themselves on this now,

Thai people just don't care about that.

[sambum]

"The defendants looked tired in court today, yesterdays hearing going on until 7-45pm meant there was nobody available to remove their shackles when they arrived back at the prison. Both said they had not been able to get much sleep"

Not enough police on Koh Tao to secure the crime scene? Nobody available on Koh Samui at 7.45 pm to remove their shackles? Where were all the prison staff - out celebrating? A bit premature if so, going by today's proceedings!

And why do they have to arrive in court in shackles anyway - oh, sorry they might do a runner if there's a shortage of police. They must all be transferred to "inactive posts"

[neal david]

this is a sad sad day for justice.

thats very true , it is a very sad day for justice ...............but as a lot of ex pats know there is no fair justice here in thailand ...its all abut money ..... and thats the bottom line .... if you have money here or are a hiso ..... you can get away with murder and thats a fact .... like it or not ... buts the truth ..... feel so sorry for all the pain that the families have been put through .... by the so called thai justice ... just hope the rest of the world now see's what thailand is really about .......

think deep down they know killed them ...... but thats another story ..... but there day will come ........

[GOLDBUGGY]

I realize what has been reported. Why would the Mafia on Koh Samui let the Mafia from Koh Tao have any say on what happens on their island?

How do you know they're two different mafia families (do they mind that you call them mafia? most Thai take extreme offense at being called 'mafia'). How do you know the two families are rivals?

It's only a 20 minute boat ride between the two islands. It's not a stretch to envision very concerned mafia members on the smaller island - cruising over to the larger island and making sure there's as little mention as possible of their possible involvement. It's already known Mon was at the trial today.

It's funny, none of the Headman's shielders (I'm not referring to Crab, but to others more right wing than him) have been jumping up and down protesting the word 'mafia' used to describe the KT Headman's clan. I was careful in prior posts to use the term 'mafia-like' when describing them. Can I now be less careful about that? Good thing I don't live near those islands. They might find me and harass me also - because of my outspoken views on how this case has been so thoroughly skewed to protect the H's people.

Mafia comes from the term "Mafiosa", which was a secret criminal organization operating in the 1800's on the Italian Island of Sicily, and in which later moved their criminal activities to the United States.

I am sorry, but even after taking a good hard long look at this Headman, he just doesn't look Italian to me.

[Gweiloman]

I realize what has been reported. Why would the Mafia on Koh Samui let the Mafia from Koh Tao have any say on what happens on their island?

How do you know they're two different mafia families (do they mind that you call them mafia? most Thai take extreme offense at being called 'mafia'). How do you know the two families are rivals?

It's only a 20 minute boat ride between the two islands. It's not a stretch to envision very concerned mafia members on the smaller island - cruising over to the larger island and making sure there's as little mention as possible of their possible involvement. It's already known Mon was at the trial today.

It's funny, none of the Headman's shielders (I'm not referring to Crab, but to others more right wing than him) have been jumping up and down protesting the word 'mafia' used to describe the KT Headman's clan. I was careful in prior posts to use the term 'mafia-like' when describing them. Can I now be less careful about that? Good thing I don't live near those islands. They might find me and harass me also - because of my outspoken views on how this case has been so thoroughly skewed to protect the H's people.

Mafia comes from the term "Mafiosa", which was a secret criminal organization operating in the 1800's on the Italian Island of Sicily, and in which later moved their criminal activities to the United States.

I am sorry, but even after taking a good hard long look at this Headman, he just doesn't look Italian to me.

For a member with over 1,000 posts, that's absolutely pathetic

[Chetzee]

I realize what has been reported. Why would the Mafia on Koh Samui let the Mafia from Koh Tao have any say on what happens on their island?

How do you know they're two different mafia families (do they mind that you call them mafia? most Thai take extreme offense at being called 'mafia'). How do you know the two families are rivals?

It's only a 20 minute boat ride between the two islands. It's not a stretch to envision very concerned mafia members on the smaller island - cruising over to the larger island and making sure there's as little mention as possible of their possible involvement. It's already known Mon was at the trial today.

It's funny, none of the Headman's shielders (I'm not referring to Crab, but to others more right wing than him) have been jumping up and down protesting the word 'mafia' used to describe the KT Headman's clan. I was careful in prior posts to use the term 'mafia-like' when describing them. Can I now be less careful about that? Good thing I don't live near those islands. They might find me and harass me also - because of my outspoken views on how this case has been so thoroughly skewed to protect the H's people.

Mafia comes from the term "Mafiosa", which was a secret criminal organization operating in the 1800's on the Italian Island of Sicily, and in which later moved their criminal activities to the United States.

I am sorry, but even after taking a good hard long look at this Headman, he just doesn't look Italian to me.

like you said .... mafia comes from the term Mafiosa ....

over time it becomes Mafia ,

and over time it comes to encompass more that some Sicilian scum .... .... and now includes Thai scum , Canadian scum ... any scum you care to mention ....

open your mind , not just your eyes !

[berybert]

I would like to know how the first policeman in the scene was able to say both bodies where almost naked, when it is clear Hannah was almost fully clothed.

These people have no problem telling lies even when the truth is staring them right in the face.

Did he show a picture of Hannah's broken body which was dressed and told people "look she is virtually naked"?

According to all the press reports/photos/videos on Thai television from the crime scene before the trial started, David was totally naked so I find the testimony of this police witness rather odd, to say the least. On the other hand Hannah was found partially clothed, i.e. she was still wearing her top and skirt.

David was found naked. Hannah had her top lowered below her breast line, thus exposing her breast, and her skirt was raise well above her waist, exposing her nude body under that. How would you explain the bodies if you found them and didn't want to give out too much detail?

Have you no shame ?

It is a murder trial, why would you not want to give out to much detail.

You are the biggest lunch box I have yet to come across on TV.

[Dogmatix]

quote: It is absolutely unbelievable, even by the Bib's lowly standards. Everything rests on the DNA evidence which seems to be the only evidence they have (no witnesses to the crime, very circumstantial evidence at best of David's phone found "near" the B2's residence). And now, they don't have this DNA evidence anymore??!!

And yet...... some posters still insist that the police have a rock solid case. I mean, how blind / blinkered / naive / gullible can one be? Even a poor Isaan rice farmer would be able to see it for the farce it is.

I suggest it is more a face savings exercise. They would prefer to be regarded as incompetent than being exposed as providing conflicting/contestable evidence. Which had seemed more and more likely. I would like to hope that at some point the judges would say 'enough is enough' and abandon the trial.

BINGO!!! Incompetent is easier to face than Bold Face Lies. Lose a little face, but if it's kinda like a mistrial,

then it's OVER--- a happy ending for the two boys(after all that time in jail for nothing!), nothing happens to any of the Authorities, the PM will abide in what the Court decides, no more proof of any wrongdoing will come to the surface. The English parents get no resolve or closure-- I'm pissed about that!

LOS is going down-- quickly!

Even with police buffoonery like this on the stand and no credible or verifiable evidence the Samui court is quite likely to convict. The police forensic colonel will testify he saw DNA matches before disposing of the samples and judge can say he sees no reason why the police should lie, so an independent analysis would have made no difference.

[GOLDBUGGY]

What he is saying is that the DNA evidence has been exhausted and there is none left, so lets leave it at that.

Is it a blanket statement, referring to ALL DNA samples, ....or just the cig butt (which is inconsequential in my view). If the blundering cop is referring to all DNA samples, then the RTP and prosecution are in deeper doo doo than imagined.

Even if so, so what? Bears no relevance to the trial.

How about coyotes?

It could be Coyotes!

I certainly see a lot of Howling going on here.

[sambum]

I would like to know how the first policeman in the scene was able to say both bodies where almost naked, when it is clear Hannah was almost fully clothed.

These people have no problem telling lies even when the truth is staring them right in the face.

Did he show a picture of Hannah's broken body which was dressed and told people "look she is virtually naked"?

According to all the press reports/photos/videos on Thai television from the crime scene before the trial started, David was totally naked so I find the testimony of this police witness rather odd, to say the least. On the other hand Hannah was found partially clothed, i.e. she was still wearing her top and skirt.

David was found naked. Hannah had her top lowered below her breast line, thus exposing her breast, and her skirt was raise well above her waist, exposing her nude body under that. How would you explain the bodies if you found them and didn't want to give out too much detail?

Have you no shame ?

It is a murder trial, why would you not want to give out to much detail.

You are the biggest lunch box I have yet to come across on TV.

You should have read one of his earlier posts describing in detail what happened to Hannah (where he called her Victoria because that is what some of her friends called her) Absolutely disgusting, and I was surprised that it got past the Mods.