Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[GOLDBUGGY]

GB. I've offered to send you the complete article - do you not want to see it now?

and again, what is the 'credible source' you mention for your claim about testing not finishing until 6th October. If you can't supply it then it's just hearsay from you.

Did you try the link I posted there?

That says nothing about 6th October. Also UK press was regularly a bit behind with its reports.

Do you pay more credence to a foreign reporter's article or the head of the forensics department where the testing is taking place?

Do you want to see the article text or not interested now?

What difference does it make if it was October 6th, or 5th, or 4th. The Media Report says sometime this week. Not tomorrow, or the day after tomorrow.

Since when and where do you say, until now at least, the head of forensics says all the DNA Testing will be competed on a certain date.

Yes! I do pay more credence to a media report over someone who has made at least 5 posts on this subject with nothing to prove his point or a single word he has stated here except Blah!Blah!Blah!

[Tony121]

If Mod and Namsod did it why with them having all there connections and being mafia not think to dump the bodies ( sea or up in the jungle ) why did they make no effort to hide the murder weapon ?

Why would Mod just wait then go to the see the crime scene again in the morning with the police I am sure he nows that something like this can't just be brushed under the carpet?

Why would they go after Sean ? how would they even know there was any connection between them ? why let Sean take a photo ? why not plant evidence on Sean or in his room ?

This is a Family that the local expat community spoke highly off before Sean made the accusations. (local expats interviewed by the guardian even said they were known for keeping the island safe.

This is a Family that people on here think have so much power can buy of the chief of police and the general and that can change security footage in a bangkok university but can't hide a 3 foot murder weapon.

Again i am not saying the B2 are guilty I will always believe that Sean holds all the answers, but it still doesnt make sense that a thai rich kid who is set to inherit a fortune goes to university and has most probably never had to pick up a hoe or do any manual work would decide to do it, and on his Dads island.

Your answers:

1) Arrogance, pride and/or confusion and perhaps because they were disturbed by a witness (possibly Shaun with the bloody guitar?).

2) Because Mod did not have wounds or scratches from Hannah, that needed to heal (unlike Nomsod who needed a week for this), and it is common knowledge that very often murderers offer police to help with the investigation because it enables them to always know what the investigative status is. He also was at the crime scene with police to leave his footprints trampling all over it (photo evidence is available), possibly planted the cigarette buds and messed up the crime scene.

3) Sean is a key witness, most likely he tried to intervene, was also attacked and fled the scene. They needed to get rid of him. To plant evidence you have to carry that evidence around - not a good idea while everyone was on alert on that island.

4) Fear make people say the nicest things about others who have power over them.

5) If by accident the gun one is proudly showing to the foreign girl he dares to impress so much goes off and blows her brains out, he'd be in trouble, no matter what school he visits! Someone ran to his aide and smashed Hannah's head to a pulp with the hoe to cover up the gun shot.

I believe this cluster F started off as a casual gettogether with guitar, singing and dancing and then things got out of hand.

Ok good answers ii will start with 1) and 3) so the mafia brothers are to arrogant to bother dumping bodies or hide evidence but to scared to plant evidence ?

The police are in the pocket they would have been first on the scene easy,

2) Mod at the scene of you are right it is known that murderers go back to there crime scene and even try to help the investigation, but in Thailand it is also not unusual to have a headman puu yai or other important local at a big crime scene.

3) why didn't they get rid of him they had plenty of chances ? Real mafia carry out there threats

4) iF Local expats fear them so much why do they live there, ?

5) again try to cover up a bullet but not to bothered about leaving the bodies and evidence there?

but i totally agree with your last sentence and the only person who I think was there for sure was Sean the rest just doesn't make sense.

[bunglebag]

GB. I've offered to send you the complete article - do you not want to see it now?

and again, what is the 'credible source' you mention for your claim about testing not finishing until 6th October. If you can't supply it then it's just hearsay from you.

Did you try the link I posted there?

That says nothing about 6th October. Also UK press was regularly a bit behind with its reports.

Do you pay more credence to a foreign reporter's article or the head of the forensics department where the testing is taking place?

Do you want to see the article text or not interested now?

What difference does it make if it was October 6th, or 5th, or 4th. The Media Report says sometime this week. Not tomorrow, or the day after tomorrow.

Since when and where do you say, until now at least, the head of forensics says all the DNA Testing will be competed on a certain date.

Yes! I do pay more credence to a media report over someone who has made at least 5 posts on this subject with nothing to prove his point or a single word he has stated here except Blah!Blah!Blah!

Well I have sent you the full article. if you think I have doctored it or made it up in some way all you have to do is find someone who is registered as a Bangkok Post premium member and you can view the article in it's original location.

I don't know why you keep trying to assign these comments to me rather than Pol Lt Gen Kamrob Panyakaew, chief of the Office of Police Forensic Science unless you are trying to reduce their weight?

[stephenterry]

GB. I've offered to send you the complete article - do you not want to see it now?

and again, what is the 'credible source' you mention for your claim about testing not finishing until 6th October. If you can't supply it then it's just hearsay from you.

Did you try the link I posted there?

That says nothing about 6th October. Also UK press was regularly a bit behind with its reports.

Do you pay more credence to a foreign reporter's article or the head of the forensics department where the testing is taking place?

Do you want to see the article text or not interested now?

What difference does it make if it was October 6th, or 5th, or 4th. The Media Report says sometime this week. Not tomorrow, or the day after tomorrow.

Since when and where do you say, until now at least, the head of forensics says all the DNA Testing will be competed on a certain date.

Yes! I do pay more credence to a media report over someone who has made at least 5 posts on this subject with nothing to prove his point or a single word he has stated here except Blah!Blah!Blah!

GB give it a rest. Your rhetoric is becoming increasingly unrealistic. Either talk sensibly or shut it. That's advice not patronising.

[stephenterry]

Chill and wait until 22.

[bunglebag]

GB. I've offered to send you the complete article - do you not want to see it now?

and again, what is the 'credible source' you mention for your claim about testing not finishing until 6th October. If you can't supply it then it's just hearsay from you.

Did you try the link I posted there?

That says nothing about 6th October. Also UK press was regularly a bit behind with its reports.

Do you pay more credence to a foreign reporter's article or the head of the forensics department where the testing is taking place?

Do you want to see the article text or not interested now?

What difference does it make if it was October 6th, or 5th, or 4th. The Media Report says sometime this week. Not tomorrow, or the day after tomorrow.

Since when and where do you say, until now at least, the head of forensics says all the DNA Testing will be competed on a certain date.

Yes! I do pay more credence to a media report over someone who has made at least 5 posts on this subject with nothing to prove his point or a single word he has stated here except Blah!Blah!Blah!

Sorry to go on but it was you who mentioned the 6th October and now you're backtracking?

The article you linked to was written on Tuesday 30th September, in a foreign paper - there is no mention of their sources and it is not unlikely that the article I have mentioned actually was one of their sources.

The article I mention came out 2 days earlier and contains direct quotes from the main players in the DNA testing, so if the person who wrote the independent article saw that the next day as they were researching for their own article then they could easily have written your piece using the BP info. Conjecture as the independent article does not supply sources for its information, wheras the Bangkok Post article does.

I'm done debating with you on this particular point. I've provided an article with direct quotes from relevant named people in authority whereas you are using a newspaper article from the other side of the world with no sources mentioned, and then adding your own extras like 6th October to muddy the water. People can and will make up their own minds as always.

I suppose I should be interested to hear your views on the Bangkok Post article I sent you though but I expect you will bat it away.

Bangkok Post

28-9-14, 6.10am

Article title: Murder probe DNA testing 'Nearly done'

Edited July 17, 2015 by bunglebag

[Tony121]

If Mod and Namsod did it why with them having all there connections and being mafia not think to dump the bodies ( sea or up in the jungle ) why did they make no effort to hide the murder weapon ?

Why would Mod just wait then go to the see the crime scene again in the morning with the police I am sure he nows that something like this can't just be brushed under the carpet?

Why would they go after Sean ? how would they even know there was any connection between them ? why let Sean take a photo ? why not plant evidence on Sean or in his room ?

This is a Family that the local expat community spoke highly off before Sean made the accusations. (local expats interviewed by the guardian even said they were known for keeping the island safe.

This is a Family that people on here think have so much power can buy of the chief of police and the general and that can change security footage in a bangkok university but can't hide a 3 foot murder weapon.

Again i am not saying the B2 are guilty I will always believe that Sean holds all the answers, but it still doesnt make sense that a thai rich kid who is set to inherit a fortune goes to university and has most probably never had to pick up a hoe or do any manual work would decide to do it, and on his Dads island.

I don't mean to be picky or insulting but your post is very much like the RTP's case to date - riddled with inaccuracies and careless with the facts (truths).

Firstly, it's Mon and Nomsod, not Mod and Namsod.

Secondly, the security footage is from an apartment, not a university.

Thirdly, no one has ever said that NS actually wielded the hoe or that he was the murderer. Refer to this post of mine back in Oct 2014

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/770056-koh-tao-murder-suspects-tell-rights-commission-they-were-beaten/page-7#entry8563814

As a senior manager, I do not do the so called manual work myself; I delegate it to my subordinates. It's like having a maid at home - you sit down for dinner but are unlikely to wash the dishes, right?

well not to be picky or insulting back but what does spelling there names wrong have anything to do with the point, second footage what its matter where it is from. someone still would of had to put dates stamps on it, my point is why go to all the trouble but leave a crime scene intact.

Thirdly as someone who has lived on Samui for 13 years I Know how the powerful locals and the mafia work. if they had a maid she would clean the dishes, mop the floor and put the rubbish out.

[Jockey]

Did the police manage to find out who mugged the British womanthe night before the murders? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11111774/Thai-motorbike-gang-mugged-British-women-night-before-backpacker-couple-were-murdered-on-Koh-Tao-island.html

[boomerangutang]

Here are some things which are not important, and it's a waste of calories to even be discussing:

>>> cig butt. supposedly had Hannah's saliva on it, and an Asian's. Was not found at crime scene, as GB keeps asserting, but was found 50 to 60 meters away. It means nothing of significance. Let's drop it, and focus on things which are relevant.

>>> unused condom, supposedly with just a drop of Hannah's blood on one side. Probably blood splatter. It's a party beach and those rocks are frequented often by youngsters wanting to make out. The condom could be days old. It's a non-item, let's fogedabowdit.

>>> motive. The judges are going to decide on the verdict. If RTP/prosecutors say that Hannah and David were engaged in sex (and the two B boys were driven to a murderous rage by seeing that), then that's all the judges need to hear. All other theories, regardless of how much more plausible or sensible, can be thrown by the wayside. The judges are going to side with RTP when there's an issue which can't be disproven. Motive are thoughts of others, and thoughts can't be proven or disproven. It's nebulous, and won't have a bearing on the case.

In contrast, there are scores of significant issues which may skew the outcome one way or another. I've been commenting since the day of the crime. Indeed, my very first comment on this case was posted in the Bkk Post. I said that 'outside' investigators need to be brought in to find what really happened. I knew at the first moment I heard of the crime, that the investition would devolve to the sustained pile of RTP excreted crapola we're grappling with now.

[PaPiPuPePo]

...more speculation...or just a wild guess. Perhaps his nickname DoDo is due to a wounded wing...flightless bird.

Watching these two videos again, I see something very interesting: notice how his right arm swings from the shoulder, but the left arm bends at the elbow as he swings it, in both videos. He seems to have something going on with his left arm--other photos show him holding his left arm up against his body.

What are the chances that two similar-looking people have this same odd thing going on with how they move their arms when walking? One in a million?

Are you saying I'm merely speculating?

Wrong.

I'm pointing out something that must have a very, very small chance of being a coincidence. Speculation is when the odds are at best slightly favourable. If you have a 66% chance of making money (2 to odds in favour) that would be considered pretty safe speculation. If the odds of this being a cooicidence, i.e. it being two different people, aren't one in a million, but one 10,000th of that, then the odds it is the same person are 99.1%, 100 to 1. If they're 1/10th of that, they're still 91%, 10 to 1. That's not speculation by any sense of the term.

[GOLDBUGGY]

GB. I've offered to send you the complete article - do you not want to see it now?

and again, what is the 'credible source' you mention for your claim about testing not finishing until 6th October. If you can't supply it then it's just hearsay from you.

Did you try the link I posted there?

Yes I got your article. No! I do not think you made this up.

It is dated September 28, 2014.

The quote from the person you mentioned said the results should be completed in a couple of days. So September 30th. But on September 30th another media report came out to state they are not completed yet and will be ready this week. Both the accused were taken in for questioning as reported by media on October 2. Or just 2 days later.

The original post was why the accused had there DNA tested but were released. I said because their samples may have been taken then, but tests results were probably completed yet. Do you still disagree with that statement?

[bunglebag]

GB. I've offered to send you the complete article - do you not want to see it now?

and again, what is the 'credible source' you mention for your claim about testing not finishing until 6th October. If you can't supply it then it's just hearsay from you.

Did you try the link I posted there?

Yes I got your article. No! I do not think you made this up.

It is dated September 28, 2014.

The quote from the person you mentioned said the results should be completed in a couple of days. So September 30th. But on September 30th another media report came out to state they are not completed yet and will be ready this week. Both the accused were taken in for questioning as reported by media on October 2. Or just 2 days later.

The original post was why the accused had there DNA tested but were released. I said because their samples may have been taken then, but tests results were probably completed yet. Do you still disagree with that statement?

BP article was dated 28th Sept 2014, which was a Sunday.

I'm not sure if you were speed reading and didn't quite catch it but the article states:

"We expect all the results within the next couple of days," Lt Gen Kamrob said on Friday"

So this 'couple of days' statement was actually made on 26th Sept, 6 or 7 days before 2nd October.

Appreciate you highlighting this as it is making it seem a bit odd that one of the B2 didn't come back positive the first time.

[eliotness]

bungelbag

Yes, to my knowledge you cannot post the Bangkok Post here. So to me that is a plausible explanation.

But lets first go over what you said he said. You said it takes 48 hours to do one DNA Sample. You said they were working around the clock doing 30 samples at one time. The media has mentioned several times they collect at least 200 DNA Samples to be tested.

So to do all of them it would have taken 200 samples / 30 sample at once = 6.66 times at 30 samples per time. Since it takes 48 hours to do one sample then 6.66 x 48 hours = 320 hours. Which is 11 days and 8 hours to be totally finished with all samples.

Now how long to get set up and take all these samples considering the Island had about 5 Police Officers and I am sure not the equipment to collect these samples. All this would have to come from other sources to this remote island including the people to take them. The also have to transport them back to the Lab. Maybe double that time.

The Media Reported from a credible source on September 30th, 2014 that the 200 DNA Sample collected from the people of Koh Tao would be ready sometime later that week. Someone here went into more detail ad even said that day would be Monday. Which would place the DNA Testing ready by October 06.

On October 1st, Win fled the Island for the main,where he was caught the next morning and was brought in for questioning. LIN dyed his hair from Blond back to Black. although no exact dates was mentioned when he was alleged to have done this.

My original post mentions that there are methods to do fast DNA Checking when this is desirable, which I linked here as proof. In my country a Road Side Breathalyzer Test is not considered evidence in a court of law. The person still has to be brought in and Lab Tested, so it is just a early indication for the Police to dig deeper.

But if the 2 accused were previously tested their, and as most claims, then their DNA Results may not have been complete by the time of their arrest. Or if it was completed may have led to their arrest shortly after that. So in no way does this suggest they were tested and then let go. They were sampled. That is it!

As to your post I am still trying to figure out relevance to this, unless you are claiming these DNA Samples should have been completed earlier. Since I just proved to you they were not, then I guess there is nothing further to discuss on this point.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/thailand-beach-murders-hannah-witheridge-was-raped-by-two-men-before-being-killed-9765137.html

You've obviously never worked in a testing laboratory. Testing is done in batches, true. Each batch might take 48 hours to complete the test, true. However the testing will have several stages, so you could process many batches in one day and the results of the first batch come out after 48 hours and depending on the time taken for each stage then the other batches will come out at regular intervals. Thus I would expect 200 samples to be completed within 3 to 4 days. Your 11 day estimate makes you look a very funny man.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Here are some things which are not important, and it's a waste of calories to even be discussing:

>>> cig butt. supposedly had Hannah's saliva on it, and an Asian's. Was not found at crime scene, as GB keeps asserting, but was found 50 to 60 meters away. It means nothing of significance. Let's drop it, and focus on things which are relevant.

>>> unused condom, supposedly with just a drop of Hannah's blood on one side. Probably blood splatter. It's a party beach and those rocks are frequented often by youngsters wanting to make out. The condom could be days old. It's a non-item, let's fogedabowdit.

>>> motive. The judges are going to decide on the verdict. If RTP/prosecutors say that Hannah and David were engaged in sex (and the two B boys were driven to a murderous rage by seeing that), then that's all the judges need to hear. All other theories, regardless of how much more plausible or sensible, can be thrown by the wayside. The judges are going to side with RTP when there's an issue which can't be disproven. Motive are thoughts of others, and thoughts can't be proven or disproven. It's nebulous, and won't have a bearing on the case.

In contrast, there are scores of significant issues which may skew the outcome one way or another. I've been commenting since the day of the crime. Indeed, my very first comment on this case was posted in the Bkk Post. I said that 'outside' investigators need to be brought in to find what really happened. I knew at the first moment I heard of the crime, that the investition would devolve to the sustained pile of RTP excreted crapola we're grappling with now.

No, lets not leave this alone. This LINK, which I ave provide to you before clearly states that what you are saying is totally wrong. But knowing you won't read it as it doesn't fit into your grand conspiracy theory let me help you out.

"The butt of the cigarette, found very close to Hannah’s battered body, is a brand normally smoked only by Thai and Burmese people"

Very close it not 50 or 60 yards away. Even that is't close when throwing a Grenade.

"He said the key to finding the killer lay in a single discarded cigarette butt which had DNA on it that matched samples from inside Hannah’s body."

But then when you don't believe anything you see or read except that which fits into to some conspiracy, then it doesn't much matter. But 50 or 60 yards is not very close to Hannah's Body in anyone's books.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/thailand-beach-murders-desperate-police-4288032

[thailandchilli]

Here are some things which are not important, and it's a waste of calories to even be discussing:

>>> cig butt. supposedly had Hannah's saliva on it, and an Asian's. Was not found at crime scene, as GB keeps asserting, but was found 50 to 60 meters away. It means nothing of significance. Let's drop it, and focus on things which are relevant.

>>> unused condom, supposedly with just a drop of Hannah's blood on one side. Probably blood splatter. It's a party beach and those rocks are frequented often by youngsters wanting to make out. The condom could be days old. It's a non-item, let's fogedabowdit.

>>> motive. The judges are going to decide on the verdict. If RTP/prosecutors say that Hannah and David were engaged in sex (and the two B boys were driven to a murderous rage by seeing that), then that's all the judges need to hear. All other theories, regardless of how much more plausible or sensible, can be thrown by the wayside. The judges are going to side with RTP when there's an issue which can't be disproven. Motive are thoughts of others, and thoughts can't be proven or disproven. It's nebulous, and won't have a bearing on the case.

In contrast, there are scores of significant issues which may skew the outcome one way or another. I've been commenting since the day of the crime. Indeed, my very first comment on this case was posted in the Bkk Post. I said that 'outside' investigators need to be brought in to find what really happened. I knew at the first moment I heard of the crime, that the investition would devolve to the sustained pile of RTP excreted crapola we're grappling with now.

No, lets not leave this alone. This LINK, which I ave provide to you before clearly states that what you are saying is totally wrong. But knowing you won't read it as it doesn't fit into your grand conspiracy theory let me help you out.

"The butt of the cigarette, found very close to Hannah’s battered body, is a brand normally smoked only by Thai and Burmese people"

Very close it not 50 or 60 yards away. Even that is't close when throwing a Grenade.

"He said the key to finding the killer lay in a single discarded cigarette butt which had DNA on it that matched samples from inside Hannah’s body."

But then when you don't believe anything you see or read except that which fits into to some conspiracy, then it doesn't much matter. But 50 or 60 yards is not very close to Hannah's Body in anyone's books.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/thailand-beach-murders-desperate-police-4288032

I would have left it alone if I were you:

The semen DNA matched DNA found on the butt of an LM cigarette found beside a rock 30-50 metres from the crime scene, Surat Thani police chief Kiattipong Khaosam-ang said on Thursday.

Bangkok Post 18th Sept: TERRY FREDRICKSON

Edited July 17, 2015 by thailandchilli

[rkidlad]

JTJ and GOLDBUGGY, conveniently seem to forget that in the ORIGINAL investigation, the head police honcho CLEARLY STATED that they had "strong evidence" that linked both Mon and Namsod to the crime. Remember that? Then, out of nowhere, said police was quickly yanked from the investigation, given a promotion and shifted to a desk in BKK, and another police big wig was appointed, and IMMEDIATELY cleared the original 2 suspects.

The police were flatly denied the cctv videos of the night in question.

Mon was supposedly in BKK at university for serious exams, but questions reveal that he didn't even show up for those exams. Now, why is that?

Mon and Namson flatly refused to take DNA

Only you seem to be forgetting the police accused a lot of people in the beginning (inlcuding a friend of the victim who they say they found blood on his clothes) and said a lot of other things that turned out to be incorrect. You also seem to be forgetting the fact, which has been repeated numerous times and linked to on these threads, that the the move in command was planned and announced prior to the murders and took place on the exact date they said it would prior to the move.

As for the rest of your post, it too is nonsense and it gets old correcting such nonsense as it will just be deflected and ignored so it can be repeated again and again.

Yes, the police had lots of suspects in the early days, even claiming to have "strong" evidence. They subsequently cleared these suspects and you are happy to accept their word that they mistakenly fingered these suspects. Why is it that you don't think it's possible that the RTP could have also made mistakes in accusing the B2?

Like mistakenly having the lab confirm their semen was in the victim?

Yes, we get it, John. It's not lost. It's not lost!

The 2 Burmese killed them. Repeat, the 2 Burmese killed them!

Why are you pushing yourself into a corner when it's so clear you're right and the majority are wrong? Let the court decide, ha ha.

Oh, i get it. Is it because this case is falling apart faster than a than a bookcase from Index Living? Seems so unfair, doesn't it, boy?

[Tony121]

Did the police manage to find out who mugged the British womanthe night before the murders? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11111774/Thai-motorbike-gang-mugged-British-women-night-before-backpacker-couple-were-murdered-on-Koh-Tao-island.html

On an island where there are only a few Thai Families and the rest of the workforce is like 80% Burmese and 20 % and the thais are doing the jobs that need a college education, is the gang more likely to be thai or Burmese ?

[bunglebag]

If there was a discarded butt 20 or 50 or 60 yards away and if it contains traces of Hannah's dna AND traces of another person's dna, and that other dna trace also matched the samples taken from Hannah then that would have been pretty relevant I'd have thought.

But if all we have is RTP's word on that and this can no longer be verified for whatever reason then it cannot be considered reliable evidence in my opinion. You would think they would have been more careful with such crucial evidence.

[Briggsy]

Did the police manage to find out who mugged the British womanthe night before the murders? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11111774/Thai-motorbike-gang-mugged-British-women-night-before-backpacker-couple-were-murdered-on-Koh-Tao-island.html

On an island where there are only a few Thai Families and the rest of the workforce is like 80% Burmese and 20 % and the thais are doing the jobs that need a college education, is the gang more likely to be thai or Burmese ?

The gang is most likely to be those who know they can do what they like without any repercussions.

I doubt the thugs under the patronage of the Toovichien clan did jobs requiring a college education.

[Tony121]

Did the police manage to find out who mugged the British womanthe night before the murders? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11111774/Thai-motorbike-gang-mugged-British-women-night-before-backpacker-couple-were-murdered-on-Koh-Tao-island.html

On an island where there are only a few Thai Families and the rest of the workforce is like 80% Burmese and 20 % and the thais are doing the jobs that need a college education, is the gang more likely to be thai or Burmese ?

The gang is most likely to be those who know they can do what they like without any repercussions.

I doubt the thugs under the patronage of the Toovichien clan did jobs requiring a college education.

I also doubt mugging tourists is what a local so called mafia do don't you ?

[Darkknight666]

If Mod and Namsod did it why with them having all there connections and being mafia not think to dump the bodies ( sea or up in the jungle ) why did they make no effort to hide the murder weapon ?

Why would Mod just wait then go to the see the crime scene again in the morning with the police I am sure he nows that something like this can't just be brushed under the carpet?

Why would they go after Sean ? how would they even know there was any connection between them ? why let Sean take a photo ? why not plant evidence on Sean or in his room ?

This is a Family that the local expat community spoke highly off before Sean made the accusations. (local expats interviewed by the guardian even said they were known for keeping the island safe.

This is a Family that people on here think have so much power can buy of the chief of police and the general and that can change security footage in a bangkok university but can't hide a 3 foot murder weapon.

Again i am not saying the B2 are guilty I will always believe that Sean holds all the answers, but it still doesnt make sense that a thai rich kid who is set to inherit a fortune goes to university and has most probably never had to pick up a hoe or do any manual work would decide to do it, and on his Dads island.

I don't mean to be picky or insulting but your post is very much like the RTP's case to date - riddled with inaccuracies and careless with the facts (truths).

Firstly, it's Mon and Nomsod, not Mod and Namsod.

Secondly, the security footage is from an apartment, not a university.

Thirdly, no one has ever said that NS actually wielded the hoe or that he was the murderer. Refer to this post of mine back in Oct 2014

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/770056-koh-tao-murder-suspects-tell-rights-commission-they-were-beaten/page-7#entry8563814

As a senior manager, I do not do the so called manual work myself; I delegate it to my subordinates. It's like having a maid at home - you sit down for dinner but are unlikely to wash the dishes, right?

well not to be picky or insulting back but what does spelling there names wrong have anything to do with the point, second footage what its matter where it is from. someone still would of had to put dates stamps on it, my point is why go to all the trouble but leave a crime scene intact.

Thirdly as someone who has lived on Samui for 13 years I Know how the powerful locals and the mafia work. if they had a maid she would clean the dishes, mop the floor and put the rubbish out.

Why? Because it happens to be a heavily trafficked beach area... Beach = tide and sand... Easy crime scene mucking and then add RTP what do you have? A bumbling mess.

[eliotness]

I would like to suggest before anyone else goes on about the DNA samples they google "dna sample testing".

Some points:

Unless the samples are taken by experienced people samples can easily be contaminated.

Comparing sperm dna taken from inside the victim with saliva (e.g.) dna is more complicated than say saliva with saliva.

Samples with mixed sperm from 2 or more men taken from inside the victim are very difficult to confirm and are open to errors.

Conformation of the dna results should be confirmed by 2 independent (of each other) laboratories.

No wonder the defence wanted independent testing.

[Emster23]

So you base their innocents on that their is no DNA left for further testing?

Well then, you had better let out the +95% Convicted Murders in your country because they never had their DNA Evidence done twice either. While you are at that, maybe protested against the Prosecution Team in your country for not assisting the the Defense in making their case. In my country the Prosecution tries to provide evidence in court that the accused are guilty beyond reasonable doubt. They do not try to prove that the accused are innocent.

DNA testing that leaves no portion of the original sample for retesting is quite rare. In any country with a half functional legal system, if such testing is contemplated, a careful procedure must be followed, including independent witnesses and photographic record of the testing. In my country, DNA evidence often clears suspects because samples are not lost or used up.

Not sure where you are from but it is HIGHLY unusual for defense to retest dna in criminal cases in the US. It is a bone head move because of the reliability of DNA and if there own test comes back showing it matches then it puts the defense in the corner and loses their credibility if they try to say it was planted. If it was planted then no reason to test it and if the police planted it then the evidence they give the defense will also be planted. Most vast majority of cases with DNA evidence will result in the defending making a plea deal while those who fight the case will try to show how contamination could account for the client DNA being present or claim a police frame up.

Although I am sure it may have happened but I have never heard of a case anywhere in the state had lab reports showing DNA against the accused only to have the defense retest it and have it not match.

As a side note, the discovery laws in the US also don't provide the defense with access to retest evidence. A motion has to be made and a judge has to grant permission for this to happen. Discovery only allows the defense to visually inspect evidence, not take it or handle it or test it without permission from the court

You sir have absolutely no clue what you are talking about, may I suggest you do a little research before posting or look back to a post I made several pages back that clearly explains what you obviously don't understand, you also don't seem to have a grasp of how criminal proceeding work - why we have procedures and protocols - who is actually taking the action against an accused - who has the burden of proof - and why a defence team exists and what roll they are playing in the proceedings - all fundamental stuff which raises a huge question mark about you and your motives posting here.

Just because you claim that defence rarely retest DNA does not mean that there are not strict protocols that must be followed, if they are not followed it would result in the DNA evidence being excluded or the whole case thrown out of court, may I also add that if the defence gains access to DNA evidence (as they should) and does retest it - it is up to them whether or not to submit those retests to the court - pretty obvious they would only do it if it helped the defence case, also you are forgetting the fundamentals of a criminal court trial, the accused is innocent until proven guilty - it is up to the prosecution to form a case that will convict not the defence. a concept you don't seem to have grasped

Ever hear of the OJ Simpson trial? A big part of defense centered around "chain of custody" of blood samples (and DNA from).... which here was totally botched regarding collection, custody and testing. Also some contaminating chemical (a preservative?) was found in sample, which led to reasonable doubt regarding authenticity of samples, something was amiss. Odd thing that came out after trial is that the contaminating chemical just happens to be in Big Mac secret sauce, which could have been on hands and into blood samples, as OJ did say he went to McDonald's earlier that night.

[Emster23]

Some argument over how long it takes to do a professional thorough DNA test. This explanation is from lab in USA. " With lives and liberty at stake, the forensic DNA analyst has an obligation to produce the highest quality of work and with this commitment comes the cost of time." Time presented here with all the correct steps is 54 hours and 15 minutes. http://patc.com/weeklyarticles/dna-timeline.shtml

[PaPiPuPePo]

Did the police manage to find out who mugged the British womanthe night before the murders? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11111774/Thai-motorbike-gang-mugged-British-women-night-before-backpacker-couple-were-murdered-on-Koh-Tao-island.html

On an island where there are only a few Thai Families and the rest of the workforce is like 80% Burmese and 20 % and the thais are doing the jobs that need a college education, is the gang more likely to be thai or Burmese ?

The gang is most likely to be those who know they can do what they like without any repercussions.

I doubt the thugs under the patronage of the Toovichien clan did jobs requiring a college education.

I also doubt mugging tourists is what a local so called mafia do don't you ?

Maybe you should actually spend some time on KT, as I have. May remove your doubts.

While many of the Thais there are perfectly pleasant, and the Burmese act exactly as expected, like people with no power and no rights, there's a whole section of the male population there that will engage in various kinds of aggressive and/or threatening behaviour toward foreigners giving the distinct impression that they either can, or believe they can, act with absolute impunity. I've experienced it myself and though I reckon I've been through more dicey situations than most people, I've felt uncomfortable and threatened on KT for doing nothing except giving one of these guys an excuse to threaten me.

So you can make uninformed remarks with the intent of spreading doubt and confusion, but to one who's been there it's obvious you either haven't, or didn't have your wits about you when you were. It's plain as day.

[IslandLover]

Only the blind / blinkered / have vested interests would not see the similarities between the two videos. Furthermore, the video purportedly shows him on the way to uni. Does any kid anywhere in the world go to university without so much as a bag or a book or a folder? I presume his phone is in his pocket.

On the day after the murders, the CI (Panya) states very clearly that they, the police, have CCTV evidence which points towards Mon and NS. These two suspects were subsequently (and very quickly imo) "cleared". Nevertheless, that meant that at one time, there existed CCTV footage showing two or more persons. Sadly, as these suspects are not on trial, we will never see this footage and what's the bet that it has also been "lost"?

Some of JTJ's and GB's post are so far out almost to the point of trolling. I really hope that they are not trolling because two young people have lost their lives and another two young lives are on the line. But their steadfast denials without questioning the extremely flimsy and dubious "evidence" being presented by the prosecution beggars belief.

For JTJ to speculate that some posters are jealous of the power and wealth of the Headman is just hilarious. To JTJ, most people have a conscience. These same people want to see the criminals brought to trial and that justice is served. If there is IRREFUTABLE evidence that the B2 are guilty (eye witnesses, blood stained clothing, fingerprints and/or DNA from murder weapon(s), genuine confessions (not that "extracted" under torture or threat of torture etc), then without doubt, the most vocal supporters would immediately demand for their execution or life long imprisonment without possibility of parole.

However, what we have here just seems like a concocted story being made up as we go along. Some other pieces of evidence are purely circumstantial and unlikely to bear any relevance to the case. A cigarette butt with the DNA of the accused found in the vicinity? So? If this crime had happened say in Bkk and the suspects normally lives in Pattaya, there could be some weight to this evidence. But KT is a small island, the migrant workers most probably spend a lot of their free time on the beaches anyway. I'm sure that if the RTP were to scour the beach, they would be retrieve hundreds if not thousands of cigarette butts containing the DNA's of hundreds of different people.

DNA found on the victim's bodies. I don't recall reading anywhere that the B2's DNA was actually matched to the sperm samples retrieved, just that they were matched to DNA found on the victims. If indeed it's matched to the sperm samples, then it must be nigh on impossible for the samples to be used up. It could be "conveniently" lost though.

As for GB, he makes up "facts" as he goes along, much like the RTP. He may fool some new readers but for those of us that has followed the case from the beginning, a lot of his posts are riddled with inaccuracies that we can't be bothered to point out.

For JTJ to speculate that some posters are jealous of the power and wealth of the Headman is just hilarious.

I am not jealous of the wealthy. It's HOW that wealth has been amassed which bothers me.

And remember:

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." - John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton, first Baron Acton (1834–1902).

@Gweiloman - your post was excellent!

Edited July 17, 2015 by IslandLover

[IslandLover]

Re 2460 post -JTJ. Same thing happens now as people bury their head in the sand and pretend that all the DNA evidence has been lost despite the fact this has since been clarified as being untrue.

This statement is both untrue and misleading. The key DNA evidence, which includes the samples found on the female victim, have either been 'lost' or finished' according to the police statement at the court. However, the DNA result reports are intact, but as there are no underlying samples to re-test, then the reports cannot be substantiated/verified/validated. As Andy Hall, states, this undermines the prosecution's case. Whether the court would be prepared to accept the reports without any substantiation, is another story.

Is that clear?

Whether the key DNA evidence is "lost", "finished" or "used up", it amounts to the same thing, which is that it is no longer available to be verified/validated. The whole case now rests on the word of the RTP that the DNA evidence implicates the B2 in the rape and murders of the victims. How will the judge see it? Well, I think I already know the answer to that.

[minikev]

Here are some things which are not important, and it's a waste of calories to even be discussing:

>>> cig butt. supposedly had Hannah's saliva on it, and an Asian's. Was not found at crime scene, as GB keeps asserting, but was found 50 to 60 meters away. It means nothing of significance. Let's drop it, and focus on things which are relevant.

>>> unused condom, supposedly with just a drop of Hannah's blood on one side. Probably blood splatter. It's a party beach and those rocks are frequented often by youngsters wanting to make out. The condom could be days old. It's a non-item, let's fogedabowdit.

>>> motive. The judges are going to decide on the verdict. If RTP/prosecutors say that Hannah and David were engaged in sex (and the two B boys were driven to a murderous rage by seeing that), then that's all the judges need to hear. All other theories, regardless of how much more plausible or sensible, can be thrown by the wayside. The judges are going to side with RTP when there's an issue which can't be disproven. Motive are thoughts of others, and thoughts can't be proven or disproven. It's nebulous, and won't have a bearing on the case.

In contrast, there are scores of significant issues which may skew the outcome one way or another. I've been commenting since the day of the crime. Indeed, my very first comment on this case was posted in the Bkk Post. I said that 'outside' investigators need to be brought in to find what really happened. I knew at the first moment I heard of the crime, that the investition would devolve to the sustained pile of RTP excreted crapola we're grappling with now.

No, lets not leave this alone. This LINK, which I ave provide to you before clearly states that what you are saying is totally wrong. But knowing you won't read it as it doesn't fit into your grand conspiracy theory let me help you out.

"The butt of the cigarette, found very close to Hannah’s battered body, is a brand normally smoked only by Thai and Burmese people"

Very close it not 50 or 60 yards away. Even that is't close when throwing a Grenade.

"He said the key to finding the killer lay in a single discarded cigarette butt which had DNA on it that matched samples from inside Hannah’s body."

But then when you don't believe anything you see or read except that which fits into to some conspiracy, then it doesn't much matter. But 50 or 60 yards is not very close to Hannah's Body in anyone's books.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/thailand-beach-murders-desperate-police-4288032

This is the first post I have read from you with any credibility. Well done for actually going back and finding a link to a statement to support your statement.

Now go back and find some more as there are many. The cigarette butt only smoked by Thai's and Myanmar people was found how many yards/metres away fom Hannah's body?

Did it have lipstick on it? If so could DNA be taken from that lipstick?

[fayou]

Some argument over how long it takes to do a professional thorough DNA test. This explanation is from lab in USA. " With lives and liberty at stake, the forensic DNA analyst has an obligation to produce the highest quality of work and with this commitment comes the cost of time." Time presented here with all the correct steps is 54 hours and 15 minutes. http://patc.com/weeklyarticles/dna-timeline.shtml

In a rape case like this with two suspects even longer i guess. I also doubt the credibility of DNA tests are made in Thailand. My understanding was that they were going to send samples of the semen to Singapore to do the racial profiling which presumably they are unable to do. The 2 boys' DNA samples did not match at first and were released. 300 people on the island were probably tested for nothing.

Edited July 17, 2015 by fayou

[JohnThailandJohn]

DNA testing that leaves no portion of the original sample for retesting is quite rare. In any country with a half functional legal system, if such testing is contemplated, a careful procedure must be followed, including independent witnesses and photographic record of the testing. In my country, DNA evidence often clears suspects because samples are not lost or used up.

Not sure where you are from but it is HIGHLY unusual for defense to retest dna in criminal cases in the US. It is a bone head move because of the reliability of DNA and if there own test comes back showing it matches then it puts the defense in the corner and loses their credibility if they try to say it was planted. If it was planted then no reason to test it and if the police planted it then the evidence they give the defense will also be planted. Most vast majority of cases with DNA evidence will result in the defending making a plea deal while those who fight the case will try to show how contamination could account for the client DNA being present or claim a police frame up.

Although I am sure it may have happened but I have never heard of a case anywhere in the state had lab reports showing DNA against the accused only to have the defense retest it and have it not match.

As a side note, the discovery laws in the US also don't provide the defense with access to retest evidence. A motion has to be made and a judge has to grant permission for this to happen. Discovery only allows the defense to visually inspect evidence, not take it or handle it or test it without permission from the court

You sir have absolutely no clue what you are talking about, may I suggest you do a little research before posting or look back to a post I made several pages back that clearly explains what you obviously don't understand, you also don't seem to have a grasp of how criminal proceeding work - why we have procedures and protocols - who is actually taking the action against an accused - who has the burden of proof - and why a defence team exists and what roll they are playing in the proceedings - all fundamental stuff which raises a huge question mark about you and your motives posting here.

Just because you claim that defence rarely retest DNA does not mean that there are not strict protocols that must be followed, if they are not followed it would result in the DNA evidence being excluded or the whole case thrown out of court, may I also add that if the defence gains access to DNA evidence (as they should) and does retest it - it is up to them whether or not to submit those retests to the court - pretty obvious they would only do it if it helped the defence case, also you are forgetting the fundamentals of a criminal court trial, the accused is innocent until proven guilty - it is up to the prosecution to form a case that will convict not the defence. a concept you don't seem to have grasped

Ever hear of the OJ Simpson trial? A big part of defense centered around "chain of custody" of blood samples (and DNA from).... which here was totally botched regarding collection, custody and testing. Also some contaminating chemical (a preservative?) was found in sample, which led to reasonable doubt regarding authenticity of samples, something was amiss. Odd thing that came out after trial is that the contaminating chemical just happens to be in Big Mac secret sauce, which could have been on hands and into blood samples, as OJ did say he went to McDonald's earlier that night.

Perfect example of defense (some would say best defense team ever) questioning if a setup took place and if there was contamination that could have caused Simpson's DNA to be present on things it would not have otherwise been. Nothing to do with with the DNA not being his and retesting it to show it wasn't his but somebody else's.

Also a perfect example of different types of DNA testing done. Much of the DNA collected during the OJ trial was too small to run more advanced tests on and they ran PCR testing which basically replicates the DNA found to make it large enough to test.

I don't believe the OJ defense even tested the blood which they claimed had the preservative in it. They simply used the prosecution test results to trip up a witness. There was never any test that showed preservative in the blood samples taken but rather they tripped up a key prosecution witness to say the report showed consistencies with the preservative. The prosecution witness (I believe was an FBI lab technician) made very clear after his testimony he never said the preservative was present. If the defense had tested or the material was available for retesting one would think they could have conclusively tested for that preservative ... something the defense would not want to do because all they need is doubt and an actual test could backfire on them.

Edit: a couple quick links found on google that should help back up my comments ...

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/07/26/us/fbi-disputes-simpson-defense-on-tainted-blood.html

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/Simpson/Dna.htm

and ....

" We did not challenge the underlying reliability of DNA testing methods; we attacked the way that evidence was gathered and processed." Barry Scheck

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-0618-morrison-scheck-oj-simpson-20140618-column.html#page=1

Edited July 17, 2015 by JohnThailandJohn