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Greek government offers sweeping proposal to creditors


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Greek government offers sweeping proposal to creditors
By DEREK GATOPOULOS and RAF CASERT

ATHENS, Greece (AP) — Greece finally met a deadline that counted on Thursday and made a series of sweeping proposals that its creditors needed by midnight to set off a mad rush toward a weekend deal to stave off a financial collapse of the nation.

The package met longstanding demands by creditors to impose wide-ranging sales-tax hikes and cuts in state spending for pensions that the left-leaning Greek government had long resisted.

It raised hopes that Greece can get the rescue deal that will prevent a catastrophic exit from the euro after key creditors said they were open to discussing how to ease the country's debt load, a long-time sticking point in their talks.

In the text of proposals sent by Athens late Thursday, the government conceded to demands it had previously refused to accept — mostly on moving various categories of goods and services to higher sales tax rates — in exchange for a new 53.5 billion-euro ($59 billion) bailout package.

The government said the proposals would be voted on by Greece's parliament late Friday before an emergency summit Sunday of all 28 European Union leaders.

After months of foot-dragging despite impending chaos, Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras met a midnight deadline with more than an hour to spare. The spokesman for eurogroup President Jeroen Dijsselbloem tweeted that it was "important for institutions to consider these (proposals) in their assessment" of the Greek situation.

Finance officials from the European institutions and the International Monetary Fund were to fine-comb through the proposals on Friday before the 19 eurozone finance ministers assess them on Saturday.In ideal circumstances, a summit of the full European Union would be able to approve them on Sunday.

Earlier Thursday, Donald Tusk of Poland, who chairs the EU summits, indicated that European officials would make an effort to address Greece's key request for debt relief.

"The realistic proposal from Greece will have to be matched by an equally realistic proposal on debt sustainability from the creditors. Only then will we have a win-win situation," Tusk said.

Greece has long argued its debt is too high to be paid back and that the country requires some form of debt relief. The International Monetary Fund agrees with the premise, but key European states like Germany have resisted the idea.

On Thursday, German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble said the possibility of some kind of debt relief would be discussed over coming days, though he cautioned it may not provide much help.

"The room for maneuver through debt reprofiling or restructuring is very small," he said.

Making Greece's debt more sustainable would likely involve lowering the interest rates and extending the repayment dates on its bailout loans. Germany and many other European countries rule out an outright debt cut, arguing it would be illegal under European treaties.

Tsipras met with finance ministry officials and his cabinet throughout the day Thursday to finalize his country's plan, a day after his government requested a new three-year aid program from Europe's bailout fund and promised to immediately enact reforms, including to taxes and pensions, in return.

The last-minute maneuvers come as Greece's financial system teeters on the brink of collapse. It has imposed restrictions on banking transactions since June 29, limiting cash withdrawals to 60 euros ($67) per day to stanch a bank run. Banks and the stock market have been shut for just as long.

The closures, which have been extended through Monday, have led to daily lines at ATM machines and have hammered businesses. Payments abroad have been banned without special permission.

"Can you see anybody in the shop? Nobody's coming in, because everyone's living off a drip," said Magda Petridi, a fortune teller who runs a shop selling good luck charms, aromatic oils and trinkets. "Until a month ago business was going pretty well."

Pensioners without bank cards have been particularly hard hit as they have struggled to access their accounts. Some branches have been opened so the elderly and unemployed without bank cards can withdraw a maximum weekly sum of 120 euros each. Hundreds lined up outside banks Thursday morning, many facing hours-long waits in the heat.

Meanwhile, many ATMs had a shortage of 20 euro notes, effectively reducing the daily withdrawal limit to 50 euros.

If Tsipras does not get a deal, Greece faces an almost inevitable collapse of the banking system, which would be the first step for the country to fall out of the euro.

"I believe he will have to get an agreement. We will pay dearly for it, but at least we'll get an agreement," said mechanic Pantelis Niarchos, walking down the street in central Athens.

After months of fruitless negotiations with Tsipras' government, elected in January on promises to repeal bailout austerity, the skeptical eurozone creditor states had insisted they wanted to see a detailed, cost-accounted plan of reforms.

Greece's financial institutions have been kept afloat so far by emergency liquidity assistance from the European Central Bank. But the ECB has not increased the amount in days, leaving the lenders in a stranglehold despite capital controls.

German ECB governing council member Jens Weidmann argued Greek banks should not get more emergency credit from the central bank unless a bailout deal is struck.

He said it was up to eurozone governments and Greek leaders themselves to rescue Greece.

The central bank "has no mandate to safeguard the solvency of banks and governments," he said in a speech.

The ECB capped emergency credit to Greek banks amid doubt whether the country will win further rescue loans from other countries. The banks closed and limited ATM withdrawals because they had no other way to replace deposits.

Weidmann said he welcomed the fact that central bank credit "is no longer being used to finance capital flight caused by the Greek government."
____

Casert reported from Brussels. Associated Press writers Efty Katasreas in Athens, Angela Charlton in Paris, David McHugh in Frankfurt and Mike Corder in Brussels contributed to this report.

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-- (c) Associated Press 2015-07-10

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So after all of the posturing, shouting, referendums....the Greeks have caved in and offered up even stricter cuts than what their people "rejected" in their referendum.

Turns out when you're hungry, you can't eat "OXI".

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So after all of the posturing, shouting, referendums....the Greeks have caved in and offered up even stricter cuts than what their people "rejected" in their referendum.

Turns out when you're hungry, you can't eat "OXI".

Rubbish

This is nowhere near as bad as what the creditors were demanding last week. Not even in the same league. This is a much better deal and is also to come with both a restructuring package and third bailout. Neither of which were on the table last week. It is Greece that has the EU over a barrel, and have since the referendum. The EU's image has taken a real bashing over this.

Edited by RustBucket
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So after all of the posturing, shouting, referendums....the Greeks have caved in and offered up even stricter cuts than what their people "rejected" in their referendum.

Turns out when you're hungry, you can't eat "OXI".

Rubbish

This is nowhere near as bad as what the creditors were demanding last week. Not even in the same league. This is a much better deal and is also to come with both a restructuring package and third bailout. Neither of which were on the table last week. It is Greece that has the EU over a barrel, and have since the referendum. The EU's image has taken a real bashing over this.

Uh huh. Keep telling yourself that.

"Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras agreed to institute sweeping spending cuts, pension reforms, and new taxes on Thursday, a capitulation that could pave the way for significant debt relief for his near-bankrupt country — and potentially keep Greece in the European monetary union. But opposition in Berlin and Athens could sink the proposal before it has a chance to swim.
After a series of emergency meetings in Brussels, Tsipras agreed to reforms that had been rejected by Greek voters — and strongly opposed by the Greek leader himself — in last Sunday’s referendum on whether to bow to European austerity demands. Now, Greece’s creditors — the International Monetary Fund, the European Central Bank, and the European Commission — have until Sunday to accept the package. If they don’t, a Grexit, or Greece getting kicked out of the eurozone, could occur."
Edited by TheAppletons
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When is the next episode on TV .. ?

Greece is playing a game, it knows full well it can never pay back the money owed, it just doesn't have the financial structure to accomplish paying loans in the billions upon billions that is owed.

It's population is too small to bring in enough funds to pay that amount. It would take at a minimum 60 years to pay it off ... it's upward of 350 billion for gods sake ...and everything will crumble in the mean time as no money will be spent to upgrade anything.

They will get the rescue package ... then plod away for another 2 years until the situation becomes dire again and then we start the next show again.

not Jaws 2 .... it's Greece II ... the movie.

Edited by steven100
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So after all of the posturing, shouting, referendums....the Greeks have caved in and offered up even stricter cuts than what their people "rejected" in their referendum.

Turns out when you're hungry, you can't eat "OXI".

Rubbish

This is nowhere near as bad as what the creditors were demanding last week. Not even in the same league. This is a much better deal and is also to come with both a restructuring package and third bailout. Neither of which were on the table last week. It is Greece that has the EU over a barrel, and have since the referendum. The EU's image has taken a real bashing over this.

Uh huh. Keep telling yourself that.

"Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras agreed to institute sweeping spending cuts, pension reforms, and new taxes on Thursday, a capitulation that could pave the way for significant debt relief for his near-bankrupt country — and potentially keep Greece in the European monetary union. But opposition in Berlin and Athens could sink the proposal before it has a chance to swim.
After a series of emergency meetings in Brussels, Tsipras agreed to reforms that had been rejected by Greek voters — and strongly opposed by the Greek leader himself — in last Sunday’s referendum on whether to bow to European austerity demands. Now, Greece’s creditors — the International Monetary Fund, the European Central Bank, and the European Commission — have until Sunday to accept the package. If they don’t, a Grexit, or Greece getting kicked out of the eurozone, could occur."

You copy and pasted someone else's reporting that contains no facts and just goes on using that reporter's chosen wording. Where does it say the conditions are STRICTER that what was rejected in the referendum? It does not mention any of that in your chosen report.

The creditors wanted pensions to be slashed with immediate effect, the creditors wanted tax rises across the board with immediate effect. The creditors wanted VAT rises across the board with immediate effect. The creditors wanted welfare spending cut with immediate effect. In return Greece would get its hands on the 7.2Bn remaining bailout cash promised to them. No offer of restructuring of debts, no promise of a haircut on debts, no promise of any further bailout money. GFo check it up, there is plenty of it reported over the past weeks.

Here are the actual facts of what has been offered by Tsipras.

  • tax rise on shipping companies and scrapping tax discounts for islands (already offered a week ago and rejected)
  • unifying VAT rates at standard 23%, including restaurants and catering
  • phasing out solidarity grant for pensioners by 2019 (meaning penalties for early retirement only)
  • €300m ($332m; £216m) defence spending cuts by 2016

In return Greece are asking for a further 55Bn and also a debt restructuring plan for the next 20 years.

So to you, this is STRICTER? I say it is nowhere near as strict as what the referendum was based on. In fact this is a very fair offering and a lot less toxic than before. It is so much better for Greece in fact, that I will be surprised if it were rejected by the EU. This is not a lot different to what Tsipras took into Brussels last Friday and was rejected out of hand. As a matter of fact this is a much better deal than the last one rejected because it includes the very important 55BN extra cash and the 20 year restructuring deal as a cherry on the top.

If this gets accepred, it is game set and match to Greece.

You can post a response as much as you want and colour it up in pretty red fonts, but is does nothing to back up your original post and how Greece has ooffered something stricter than they already rejected.Please show me where it points that out please.

Edited by RustBucket
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Additional: They offer it, but that doesn't mean they do it once they have the money.

True.

I hate the EU anyway as you can probably tell from my picture. So I wouldn't care if they were just playing that lot like a fiddle. It is the Greek people I feel sorry for here.

As far as I see it, they are all just kicking the can down the road a bit further, and we will all see this again within the next 2 years. Having said that, there are still a few humps to get over before this is a done deal. The Greek Parliament will have to ratify it, the Greek people have to want it and the EU and pals have to accept it.

Let us see what happens over the next 24 hours. The OP say 'sweeping reforms' I don't see these as that 'sweeping'.

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Oh, and if you are right and I am wrong, then I suppose we can expect 61.3% of the Greek population out rioting in the streets of Athens today then. Because they aint out there yet.

No because after the banks remained closed, reality set in. "No to austerity".....lol. Singing a different song now.

Link to the Financial Times. http://blogs.ft.com/brusselsblog/2015/07/10/leaked-greeces-new-economic-reform-proposal/

Greece capitulated on pension reform, VAT, raising the retirement age, changing the tax code, eliminating pension subsidies....Greece caved.

YOU say debt restructuring is on the table but it is not in the actual request to the EU. Here is that request from a Greek newspaper, all 13 pages of it:

http://s.kathimerini.gr/resources/article-files/h-ellhnikh-protash.pdf

And of course there's another bailout....it wasn't there last week because the Greeks wouldn't agree to the reforms, duh. facepalm.gif

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Oh, and if you are right and I am wrong, then I suppose we can expect 61.3% of the Greek population out rioting in the streets of Athens today then. Because they aint out there yet.

No because after the banks remained closed, reality set in. "No to austerity".....lol. Singing a different song now.

Link to the Financial Times. http://blogs.ft.com/brusselsblog/2015/07/10/leaked-greeces-new-economic-reform-proposal/

Greece capitulated on pension reform, VAT, raising the retirement age, changing the tax code, eliminating pension subsidies....Greece caved.

YOU say debt restructuring is on the table but it is not in the actual request to the EU. Here is that request from a Greek newspaper, all 13 pages of it:

http://s.kathimerini.gr/resources/article-files/h-ellhnikh-protash.pdf

And of course there's another bailout....it wasn't there last week because the Greeks wouldn't agree to the reforms, duh. facepalm.gif

We will see.

The top and bottom of it is that Syriza know that if they accept STRICTER austerity, then elections will be demanded, Tsipras will be gone and Syrize will never ever be elected again seeing as they have only an anti-austerity ticket. That is suicide that they would never consider. So I am afraid you are miles off the mark.

Also, the Greek people are a lot more resilient than you think.

Go watch Sky news it is being discussed on there by proper experts who are saying that the Greek offer is slightly sweeter than before, which may please the Germans, but they have dmanded more money in return that may scare off the rest of the eurozone leaders.

We all know this is a band-aid and that eventually Greece will have to default. So do the other leaders. This will also show that the EU only won because they put the clamps on the banks and forced the people into total poverty. This is being watched around the world but more importantly by complete Europhiles who seem to be changing their opinion of the EU in light of how ruthless they have played this situation and attacked the actual people of Greece.

This will NOT be forgotten.

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"The realistic proposal from Greece will have to be matched by an equally realistic proposal on debt sustainability from the creditors. Only then will we have a win-win situation," This reminds me of an old saying...Beggars can't be choosers.

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"The top and bottom of it is that Syriza know that if they accept STRICTER austerity, then elections will be demanded, Tsipras will be gone and Syrize will never ever be elected again seeing as they have only an anti-austerity ticket. That is suicide that they would never consider. So I am afraid you are miles off the mark."

The Greek press seems to think that Tsipras can marshall enough of the opposition MP votes to pass another bailout even if his own party revolts. Will be interesting to watch.
I don't think the EU (read: Germany, Netherlands, Malta) will sign up to debt relief this time around but may promise to "discuss" it in the future.
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Bugger the politics. Bugger the EU Banks. Bugger the Greek Government.

My question is for every poster here on TV:

" Would you let any more of your own money to Greece?"

Any answer 'yes' or 'no' supply with a reason good for you only. Thank you. wai2.gif

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Additional: They offer it, but that doesn't mean they do it once they have the money.

True.

I hate the EU anyway as you can probably tell from my picture. So I wouldn't care if they were just playing that lot like a fiddle. It is the Greek people I feel sorry for here.

As far as I see it, they are all just kicking the can down the road a bit further, and we will all see this again within the next 2 years. Having said that, there are still a few humps to get over before this is a done deal. The Greek Parliament will have to ratify it, the Greek people have to want it and the EU and pals have to accept it.

Let us see what happens over the next 24 hours. The OP say 'sweeping reforms' I don't see these as that 'sweeping'.

I think the EU is a great idea, till all these 3rd rate politicians and some globalists who dream about world government took it over. The EU broke every law they gave themself for good reasons to prevent something like what is happening in Greece. It will go down like the Soviet block....It was also a good idea, but didn't work.

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Bugger the politics. Bugger the EU Banks. Bugger the Greek Government.

My question is for every poster here on TV:

" Would you let any more of your own money to Greece?"

Any answer 'yes' or 'no' supply with a reason good for you only. Thank you. wai2.gif

Certainly not and they would not have got the first 130 Billion but for the fact that the government provided fraudulent figures to the IMF and EU.

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Oh, and if you are right and I am wrong, then I suppose we can expect 61.3% of the Greek population out rioting in the streets of Athens today then. Because they aint out there yet.

No because after the banks remained closed, reality set in. "No to austerity".....lol. Singing a different song now.

Link to the Financial Times. http://blogs.ft.com/brusselsblog/2015/07/10/leaked-greeces-new-economic-reform-proposal/

Greece capitulated on pension reform, VAT, raising the retirement age, changing the tax code, eliminating pension subsidies....Greece caved.

YOU say debt restructuring is on the table but it is not in the actual request to the EU. Here is that request from a Greek newspaper, all 13 pages of it:

http://s.kathimerini.gr/resources/article-files/h-ellhnikh-protash.pdf

And of course there's another bailout....it wasn't there last week because the Greeks wouldn't agree to the reforms, duh. facepalm.gif

We will see.

The top and bottom of it is that Syriza know that if they accept STRICTER austerity, then elections will be demanded, Tsipras will be gone and Syrize will never ever be elected again seeing as they have only an anti-austerity ticket. That is suicide that they would never consider. So I am afraid you are miles off the mark.

Also, the Greek people are a lot more resilient than you think.

Go watch Sky news it is being discussed on there by proper experts who are saying that the Greek offer is slightly sweeter than before, which may please the Germans, but they have dmanded more money in return that may scare off the rest of the eurozone leaders.

We all know this is a band-aid and that eventually Greece will have to default. So do the other leaders. This will also show that the EU only won because they put the clamps on the banks and forced the people into total poverty. This is being watched around the world but more importantly by complete Europhiles who seem to be changing their opinion of the EU in light of how ruthless they have played this situation and attacked the actual people of Greece.

This will NOT be forgotten.

Imposing the Europhobe narrative on the story just doesn't work and ends up a little bit smelly with the 'bad' EU and the 'actual' people of Greece under attack. Its is so transparent that almost amusing, a bit like UKIP really.

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So after all of the posturing, shouting, referendums....the Greeks have caved in and offered up even stricter cuts than what their people "rejected" in their referendum.

Turns out when you're hungry, you can't eat "OXI".

Rubbish

This is nowhere near as bad as what the creditors were demanding last week. Not even in the same league. This is a much better deal and is also to come with both a restructuring package and third bailout. Neither of which were on the table last week. It is Greece that has the EU over a barrel, and have since the referendum. The EU's image has taken a real bashing over this.

Uh huh. Keep telling yourself that.

"Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras agreed to institute sweeping spending cuts, pension reforms, and new taxes on Thursday, a capitulation that could pave the way for significant debt relief for his near-bankrupt country — and potentially keep Greece in the European monetary union. But opposition in Berlin and Athens could sink the proposal before it has a chance to swim.
After a series of emergency meetings in Brussels, Tsipras agreed to reforms that had been rejected by Greek voters — and strongly opposed by the Greek leader himself — in last Sunday’s referendum on whether to bow to European austerity demands. Now, Greece’s creditors — the International Monetary Fund, the European Central Bank, and the European Commission — have until Sunday to accept the package. If they don’t, a Grexit, or Greece getting kicked out of the eurozone, could occur."

Tsipras is having his Clint Eastwood moment and the question for Tsipras is whether it is the first scene or the second scene. Parts of Syriza will have him go for the gun. Lets see if there are any substantial supply-side proposals in the proposals which are passed in parliament. Either way any payments will be made with strings.

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"The top and bottom of it is that Syriza know that if they accept STRICTER austerity, then elections will be demanded, Tsipras will be gone and Syrize will never ever be elected again seeing as they have only an anti-austerity ticket. That is suicide that they would never consider. So I am afraid you are miles off the mark."

The Greek press seems to think that Tsipras can marshall enough of the opposition MP votes to pass another bailout even if his own party revolts. Will be interesting to watch.
I don't think the EU (read: Germany, Netherlands, Malta) will sign up to debt relief this time around but may promise to "discuss" it in the future.

greece has won this hands down im loving those germans another surrender in the offing lets whatch with a huge smile the collapse of the eu..bring it on

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Reports I heard was that many of the creditors feel what Greece is offering is way too short and just trying to buy a few more years...

One thing for sure there are many who want to see Tsipras's head on a silver platter...

And without Tsipras resigning and a more moderate government I can not see any deal.

Basically Europe has Tsipras by the "short and curlies" and if the banks do not open on Monday he will be history...

Edited by Basil B
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Bugger the politics. Bugger the EU Banks. Bugger the Greek Government.

My question is for every poster here on TV:

" Would you let any more of your own money to Greece?"

Any answer 'yes' or 'no' supply with a reason good for you only. Thank you. wai2.gif

why not you dont know where any of your tax goes anyway..they take it they spend it and you are none the wiser..good luck greece i say shaft this vile eu for every penny you can.

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Tsipras may get some debt relief if the EU takes his proposal for austerity seriously but the EU likely will use it as a carrot for immediate economic performance. Trust but verify. If Tsipras backs down on his new proposals, no debt relief.

Tsipras is going against his government's original plan that got him elected and then asked to be voted down in the referendum. Now it becomes a question for the EU as to whether Tsipras can actually deliver or face a political revolt by his own party supporters.

EU can afford to wait and see. Greece cannot.

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Euphoria swiftly dissolves in Greece as bailout plan emerges


"ATHENS (Reuters) - The euphoria felt by many Greeks at telling Europe their country was rejecting austerity for good lasted less than five days.


On Friday, the population woke up to discover Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras had promised creditors a new bailout package with austerity measures almost identical to those a majority of Greeks had voted against in Sunday's referendum.


A cartoon in the Kathimerini newspaper summed up the swift change in the public mood: a group of Greeks joyously cheering with a 'No' on Sunday next to a shot of the same group on Tuesday collectively gasping 'Oh No!'.


With the government now ready to implement a package similar to one it had called a national vote to reject, 23-year-old speech therapy student Marios Rozis reckoned the situation had descended into farce.


"Everybody was happy on Sunday, it was a mature decision against austerity. Today I feel the referendum happened for no reason," he said as he sipped a coffee and worked away at a laptop. "It doesn't make sense."


His reaction of bitterness mixed with resignation and exhaustion reflects the souring public mood in Greece, where the jubilance of an overwhelming victory by the 'No' camp on Sunday swiftly dissipated in the face of an expected economic collapse before fading altogether as the new bailout plan emerged."




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I don't trust Greece : when they have the 75 billilons € , they will do what they want and in 5 years, a fourth new call for help

story is not finished ( don't forget the political revolt by his party supporters )

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The Greek debt is unrepayable , loans are just to kick the can down the road and to funnel money into bankrupt big Euro banks.

Greece is as likely to clear that debt as the US, namely mathematically impossible. Greeks should cop the (significant) pain now and get it over with, default and exit the EU.

Seems though the charade will continue.

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The Greek debt is unrepayable , loans are just to kick the can down the road and to funnel money into bankrupt big Euro banks.

Greece is as likely to clear that debt as the US, namely mathematically impossible. Greeks should cop the (significant) pain now and get it over with, default and exit the EU.

Seems though the charade will continue.

Possibly. That's what he has in mind once the money goes into the bank!

It would probably be the best thing that Greece does leave the Euro.. Some of the VAT rises just price Greece out of the picture for tourism.. Hotels and restaurants go from 6% to 23% VAT.

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The Greek debt is unrepayable , loans are just to kick the can down the road and to funnel money into bankrupt big Euro banks.

Greece is as likely to clear that debt as the US, namely mathematically impossible. Greeks should cop the (significant) pain now and get it over with, default and exit the EU.

Seems though the charade will continue.

Possibly. That's what he has in mind once the money goes into the bank!

It would probably be the best thing that Greece does leave the Euro.. Some of the VAT rises just price Greece out of the picture for tourism.. Hotels and restaurants go from 6% to 23% VAT.

I agree also.

This bail out plan is not for Greece but for the creditors,

There needs to be provisions for growing the Greek economy, which consists of three main sectors. Agriculture,Shipping and Tourism. The proposed tax increase on shipping will see shipping companies registering their fleets under foreign flags.

The 23% Vat on hotels and restaurants will limit tourism,

is Greece supposed to grow it's economy via agriculture?

The EU has structural inadequacies that are not conducive to the welfare of the Peripheral countries, The EU is designed in such a way that currencies naturally flow from the peripheral countries to the central developed economies.

Everyone is talking about structural changes Greece has to make, How about structural changes the EU needs to make.

Greece leaves the Euro, prints Drachmas, this would lower the value of the Drachma in international markets making Greek imports more competitive.

Greece lowers domestic interest rates encouraging domestic investment

Greece develops corporate no tax havens , which in combination with it's lower Drachma, attractants foreign corporate investment, lowers unemployment,lowers welfare payments,

increases income tax revenues.

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