Greek talks with skeptical creditors to resume in morning

[sirineou]

Hard to watch to goings on in Greece and not get the feeling that it is all a scripted drama for media consumption.

Either way, like so many countries, the rich robbed the place blind and have handed the bill to the masses. They voted no deals on the debt yet the government is now dealing, regardless whether right or wrong shows what a fraud democracy has become.

I have thought about that also. I cant believe that the learned officials of the member countries dont know that which all of as know.

It is possible that all these are for public consumption to make all the structural changes necessary for the EU to be a viable Union more palatable for the public.

Greece will not be allowed to leave the Union. the situation that Greece is in , is because of the Union. Before the Union Greece grease behaved as it did now and had the same structural problems, but Greece was able to deal with them because Greece had control of t's economy, and was able to adjust the economic controls. If Greece leaves the Union all the necessary adjustments will be made, such as devaluating it's currency to meet realities, and creating conditions for growth. All these moves combined with the structural Greek changes already in place, will see the Greek situation improve rapidly, and soon Greece will thrive. This will not be lost on all the other ailing , so called peripheral economies, they must know that the EU structure as it is now is conducive to wealth flowing from the weak importing economies to the strong exporting economies , and they will soon follow Greece unraveling the EU.

[robblok]

Yes now the trust is broken, it was broken before because the previous government promised many things too and never delivered. Now with the referendum they broke even more trust. The other countries just dont believe the Greeks will do what they agreed to.

Now calls are there to kick them out (Finland, Germany) and its on their own head. I hope they kick them out they are just not to be trusted.

I also think its good for the Greeks and Europeans if the Greeks leave and never come back. Let it be a lesson to all other countries that agreements need to be kept

I am pro Europe and Euro.. just not with countries like that that want the benefits but are not willing to play by the rules.

robblok

What is your thoughts on the other 17 EU Countries that are in the same boat as Greece ? You know, the ones that take out far more than they contribute.

Is it OK for them to be leeches as long as they keep quiet and kneel to the leaders of the EU ?

Both sides are equally to blame in this farce.

If I was Greek, I think I would be saying to myself, no matter what, there is going to be pain ahead. So lets flip the bird at the EU and suffer the pain and be free.

The Germans are so desperate that they are now offering a 5 year time out for Greece.

http://news.sky.com/story/1517428/inconclusive-greek-bailout-talks-suspended

I for one, hope that the Greeks crash this whole Ponzi scheme.

What i think is that its ok to help other Euro countries to reform and develop. Its good for the Eu in a total. However Greece is a different story, they want but don't play by the rules. Countries that misuse the subsidies should be punished and of course I am against the agricultural subsidies. However I don't see that change anytime soon.

The Netherlands is a net contributor just like the UK but is benefiting from the EU in other ways. However the countries receiving money should not take the piss like the Greeks. But here we are not talking about subsidies but loans, different story.

I would think the EU should give more voting rights to those countries that are net contributors to those who are not.

I hope the Greeks get kicked out, its a good thing if the Brits leave too they whine too much about not having control over their own affairs. Its just deflecting the issue and not seeing the bigger picture. But the Brits as an island nation have always been a bit of a strange country (no insult meant here). They hold on to strange measurements and stuff like that probably because they hate it that the french invented part of the metric system.

I don't like everything of the EU but standardization of products and such benefits us all. Like that they are putting in rules that adapters for mobile phones should be universal and cant change to much (so the older-versions would work on new phones). There are many good things the EU does.. and certainly some bad things too but a common market that is standardized giving us power is a good thing. What you often see is governments blaming everything on the EU so they don't catch flack themselves.

Stupid things like the moving of the EU between Strasbourg and Brussels are things I condemn too. But I bet that even a government that you like does things you don't like. That is how i see the EU the good outweighs the bad.

Thanks for the reply. So much that I could say but it would be going off topic.

I'm sure that the Greek people who have no money and are struggling to eat will be so happy that the EU made a fantastic rule about universal phone chargers.

If that example is the 1st good thing about the EU that popped into your head, The state of the EU is even worse than I thought.

There is so much to say on this topic and this is not the first thing that pops in my head. There are many good things about the EU and I am not going to write them all down. But like you I can write many bad things too. But i can do the same for any government.

You should not think I agree with all the EU does and that I don't see its faults.

[robblok]

Yes now the trust is broken, it was broken before because the previous government promised many things too and never delivered. Now with the referendum they broke even more trust. The other countries just dont believe the Greeks will do what they agreed to.

Now calls are there to kick them out (Finland, Germany) and its on their own head. I hope they kick them out they are just not to be trusted.

I also think its good for the Greeks and Europeans if the Greeks leave and never come back. Let it be a lesson to all other countries that agreements need to be kept

I am pro Europe and Euro.. just not with countries like that that want the benefits but are not willing to play by the rules.

robblok

What is your thoughts on the other 17 EU Countries that are in the same boat as Greece ? You know, the ones that take out far more than they contribute.

Is it OK for them to be leeches as long as they keep quiet and kneel to the leaders of the EU ?

Both sides are equally to blame in this farce.

If I was Greek, I think I would be saying to myself, no matter what, there is going to be pain ahead. So lets flip the bird at the EU and suffer the pain and be free.

The Germans are so desperate that they are now offering a 5 year time out for Greece.

http://news.sky.com/story/1517428/inconclusive-greek-bailout-talks-suspended

I for one, hope that the Greeks crash this whole Ponzi scheme.

What i think is that its ok to help other Euro countries to reform and develop. Its good for the Eu in a total. However Greece is a different story, they want but don't play by the rules. Countries that misuse the subsidies should be punished and of course I am against the agricultural subsidies. However I don't see that change anytime soon.

The Netherlands is a net contributor just like the UK but is benefiting from the EU in other ways. However the countries receiving money should not take the piss like the Greeks. But here we are not talking about subsidies but loans, different story.

I would think the EU should give more voting rights to those countries that are net contributors to those who are not.

I hope the Greeks get kicked out, its a good thing if the Brits leave too they whine too much about not having control over their own affairs. Its just deflecting the issue and not seeing the bigger picture. But the Brits as an island nation have always been a bit of a strange country (no insult meant here). They hold on to strange measurements and stuff like that probably because they hate it that the french invented part of the metric system.

I don't like everything of the EU but standardization of products and such benefits us all. Like that they are putting in rules that adapters for mobile phones should be universal and cant change to much (so the older-versions would work on new phones). There are many good things the EU does.. and certainly some bad things too but a common market that is standardized giving us power is a good thing. What you often see is governments blaming everything on the EU so they don't catch flack themselves.

Stupid things like the moving of the EU between Strasbourg and Brussels are things I condemn too. But I bet that even a government that you like does things you don't like. That is how i see the EU the good outweighs the bad.

As a common market, the original idea; a union that benefits all, standardizes, regulates quality and standards, shares burdens and helps one another, great.

But some countries, as you say, take the piss and see it as somewhere to get something for nothing; or turn it into some massive layered bureaucracy where the bureaucrats make the decisions they want without any real accountability.

A Federal Europe - ran by who? The Germans think they should as they've most money. The French think it's their birthright whilst the British hate the idea of federalism.

The other countries, quite frankly, don't have the economic muscle to influence things when push really comes to shove.

The Dutch are, IME, very liberal, easy going and tolerant. They may be prepared to have their country dictated to by bureaucrats based in Brussels and Strasbourg. That was never the original idea.

Without the UK, it really won't be long before Germany gets tired of the French bickering, perceiving it's own payments too high, and all the hangers on and leaves too. The French, the ones I know, are shit scared that if the UK goes, Germany will revert to bullying them aggressively. Btw, a few Dutch were concerned that German attitude and behavior might change if UK pulled it's forces out of Europe too, when I lived there several years ago.

The EU can unravel very easily. That's the point the Greeks know and play on. As do the other near bankrupt unproductive take what they can members.

To be honest sure there are faults with the EU but i still prefer it above what it was before. I feel that countries who are net payers should get more voting rights. Many things should be changed. But the idea is good and of course some bureaucrats should go. But that is the same in any government.

[micmichd]

Disagree with the idea that European net payers should have more influence.

It was in these countries that cheated their own people in the 2008 Financial Crisis aftermath. More than 9 bn EUR was given to one German bank alone, taxpayers payed for it. Same with other banks, other countries. EU wouldn't be in this present mess if someone (eg voters) would have stopped them.

But the sheeple got merkelized, cheated from one election to the other, and now talk of a lack of trust. Why do they trust their own politicians more than the Greek politicians?

Herr Schäuble in his narrow-mindedness is talking about control measurements now. He's probably thinking of some institution like McKinsey to control Greece. Might cost more than the haircut, but Herr Schäuble is a man of law and order, and it's not his money anyway. Herr Schäuble actually owes quite a bit to the German taxpayer, his role in the Schreiber affair was never quite clear. Yet Herr Schäuble talks about trust, and he's an honourable man of law and order.

I'm actually also pro-Europe, but only with different rules that allow different political wings, and certainly not with people like Herr Schäuble & Co. that think they can sacrifice everything to money.

My special request to ECB:

Money and its currency is a matter of trust.

I've been working more all my life, made my own austerity program just to save enough for Asia when I'm old. The currency exchange rate was 44 THB : 1 EUR when I left Europe. Now give me a good reason to trust Eurozone. Thanks in advance for keeping promises.

Edited July 12, 2015 by micmichd

[Ulic]

A lot of comments about the Greek people not benefiting and should not be held to blame for

the actions of corrupt politicians. I do not see it so clearly. Greeks got the benefit of high

paying civil servant jobs, with fat pensions and early retirement, (some as young as fifty)

They also worked on infrastructure projects, road, rail. subways, etc... All high paying jobs.

The politicians bought their votes with these schemes and programs. Each government

offering more to get the vote. (I am sure this was the model the Thai rice scheme was based)

All this was backed by cheap cash from being in the EU. So originally the Greek government

cooked the books to get into the EU and then kept cooking the books to keep the euros flowing.

In 2009 the Greeks had to come clean (somewhat) and admitted the 6% tax overspending

that had been reporter for years was really 12% and then clarified as actually being 15%.

The Greek people were the biggest beneficiaries, politicians and those connected of course

took there cut but much like the USA lobbying system the politicians main goal was to sprinkle

enough sugar around to get elected. Even the current Greek government promising what

they could not possibly deliver. A guaranteed end of austerity, and to remain in the EU and

maintain use of the Euro. What a liar. The last finance minister guarantied if the people voted

no in the referendum the banks would reopen on the Tuesday following. He guaranteed an

end to austerity and there would be a huge bail out because the Germans and the rest

of the EU would see it as cheaper to keep them in the EU and Germany was desperate

absolutely desperate to keep them in the EU. Now his story has changed 180 degrees and

the God Damned Germans are trying to kick them out. Of course they are. All these promises

to privatize businesses, raise taxes, lower the numbers of the Greek civil service, pension

reforms have been made before. The only problem it the Greek governments did not follow

threw with the promised reforms and changes. The bottom line however is the Euro is too

strong a currency for a poor, unproductive country like Greece. Tourism the backbone

of the economy would be well served by a weaker currency. End of story.

[micmichd]

Your description of Greece fits other Southern European countries, too.

If Greece is forced out of the Euro and survives the Grexit, then this might be a model for other countries in a comparable situation. And soon you have a NEU, a Northern European Union. Is that what you want?

OK, I would take my pensions in Neuro, provided 44 THB >= 1 NEUR. And maybe make holiday in Greece with my Thai family one day.

Edited July 12, 2015 by micmichd

[micmichd]

http://www.bbaw.de/publikationen/stellungnahmen-empfehlungen/bericht-staatsschulden

Sorry, only available as PDF in German.

According to this, German debts rounded up to 670 pct of German Domestic Product in 2013. German GDP was 2.8 trillion EUR then, German debts accordingly 18.5 trillion EUR.

Guess where the money goes.

[sawadee1947]

Yes now the trust is broken, it was broken before because the previous government promised many things too and never delivered. Now with the referendum they broke even more trust. The other countries just dont believe the Greeks will do what they agreed to.

Now calls are there to kick them out (Finland, Germany) and its on their own head. I hope they kick them out they are just not to be trusted.

I also think its good for the Greeks and Europeans if the Greeks leave and never come back. Let it be a lesson to all other countries that agreements need to be kept

I am pro Europe and Euro.. just not with countries like that that want the benefits but are not willing to play by the rules.

I totally disagree with you: It's not only Greece's fault that they are in this crisis now but also the fault of lenders. If the forner concept was not working then it's now kigh time to find a solution. It's not a financial decision but a political. If you want to follow the idea of a Europe without borders and freedom to live and work where you want then you should come to an agreement now. Greece is worth to safe. Don't forget: The money which was given the last 5 years to Greece is lost anyway. payback impossible. A haircut would be a solution. Germany should remember

[wabothai]

there are Greeks and Greekes. Don't be so hard on the simple folks who don't have the slightest idea what has been going on and what is going on.

They only follow people with big mouths. Kind of like Thailand.

[Basil B]

there are Greeks and Greekes. Don't be so hard on the simple folks who don't have the slightest idea what has been going on and what is going on.

They only follow people with big mouths. Kind of like Thailand.

Agreed this has nothing to do with the simple Greeks, they only voted for the con man who offered them something for nothing..

[TheAppletons]

http://www.bbaw.de/publikationen/stellungnahmen-empfehlungen/bericht-staatsschulden

Sorry, only available as PDF in German.

According to this, German debts rounded up to 670 pct of German Domestic Product in 2013. German GDP was 2.8 trillion EUR then, German debts accordingly 18.5 trillion EUR.

Guess where the money goes.

To Greece?

[micmichd]

http://www.bbaw.de/publikationen/stellungnahmen-empfehlungen/bericht-staatsschulden

Sorry, only available as PDF in German.

According to this, German debts rounded up to 670 pct of German Domestic Product in 2013. German GDP was 2.8 trillion EUR then, German debts accordingly 18.5 trillion EUR.

Guess where the money goes.

To Greece?

1.75% to Greece (323bn EUR debts as of today), approx. 8% pa to capital investors.

Greece only once so far, capital investors every year.

Quite sure someone will bash this because economic growth is not considered. But according to Club of Rome's 1971 study "The Limit of Growth" 8% economic growth pa is an illusion.

So, what Greece now asks for is peanuts compared to what capital investors expect.

Of course, the difference will be taken away from normal peoples' bank accounts.

[SheungWan]

there are Greeks and Greekes. Don't be so hard on the simple folks who don't have the slightest idea what has been going on and what is going on.

They only follow people with big mouths. Kind of like Thailand.

Agreed this has nothing to do with the simple Greeks, they only voted for the con man who offered them something for nothing..

Again and again they vote for the populist free lunch. This has everything to do with the Greeks ('simple folks' ). The suggestion that they know not what they do is a load of old cobblers and just an excuse dreamt up by the patronizing left who are actually the ones who haven't a clue.

[phantomfiddler]

Get rid of these parasitic bums ! The only way a European Union could possibly work is if EVERYONE is playing by the same rules !

[MAJIC]

"We had an in-depth discussion of the Greek proposals and the issue of credibility and trust was discussed," Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the eurozone's top official, said on leaving the meeting.

After a 2 Bailouts and a third pending,then there is no credibility or trust. If tomorrows meeting yields nothing more than yet another Bailout for the conniving Greeks,then it's Goodbye to the credibility of the whole of the EU agreement, and the sooner the UK get out of Europe's clutches the better!

[MAJIC]

Yes now the trust is broken, it was broken before because the previous government promised many things too and never delivered. Now with the referendum they broke even more trust. The other countries just dont believe the Greeks will do what they agreed to.

Now calls are there to kick them out (Finland, Germany) and its on their own head. I hope they kick them out they are just not to be trusted.

I also think its good for the Greeks and Europeans if the Greeks leave and never come back. Let it be a lesson to all other countries that agreements need to be kept

I am pro Europe and Euro.. just not with countries like that that want the benefits but are not willing to play by the rules.

Yes! and the problem is: if Greece is not kicked out of Europe,then it will be a signal to Portugal,Ireland,Spain,and any other Bankrupt Countries that they can do the same,Rumania,and Bulgaria,..........Without careful decisions Europe is doomed,starting with Greece!

Edited July 12, 2015 by MAJIC

[MAJIC]

there are Greeks and Greekes. Don't be so hard on the simple folks who don't have the slightest idea what has been going on and what is going on.

They only follow people with big mouths. Kind of like Thailand.

Agreed this has nothing to do with the simple Greeks, they only voted for the con man who offered them something for nothing..

When it comes to eating stolen apples,the eater is equally as bad as the the stealer!

[NeverSure]

And the worm turns...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greek-debt-crisis-goldman-sachs-could-be-sued-for-helping-country-hide-debts-when-it-joined-euro-10381926.html

Greek debt crisis: Goldman Sachs could be sued for helping hide debts when it joined euro

Goldman Sachs faces the prospect of potential legal action from Greece over the complex financial deals in 2001 that many blame for its subsequent debt crisis.

A leading adviser to debt-riven countries has offered to help Athens recover some of the vast profits made by the investment bank.

I saw that story yesterday and it's difficult for me to understand how Greece would be able to successfully sue when the government of Greece was complicit in "cooking the books".

It's called "the doctrine of clean hands" in legal circles. One must himself have "clean hands" to successfully sue over an issue.

Cheers

[sirineou]

Yes now the trust is broken, it was broken before because the previous government promised many things too and never delivered. Now with the referendum they broke even more trust. The other countries just dont believe the Greeks will do what they agreed to.

Now calls are there to kick them out (Finland, Germany) and its on their own head. I hope they kick them out they are just not to be trusted.

I also think its good for the Greeks and Europeans if the Greeks leave and never come back. Let it be a lesson to all other countries that agreements need to be kept

I am pro Europe and Euro.. just not with countries like that that want the benefits but are not willing to play by the rules.

Yes! and the problem is: if Greece is not kicked out of Europe,then it will be a signal to Portugal,Ireland,Spain,and any other Bankrupt Countries that they can do the same,Rumania,and Bulgaria,..........Without careful decisions Europe is doomed,starting with Greece!

Or.... supposed Greece departs the Union and then starts doing better, while many of the other peripheral countries languish under a union with structural monetary inadequate that are conductive to wealth flowing from the undeveloped economies, with low value added products to the developed economies with high value added products.

What if Greece unconstrained with the above adequateness and helped by all the structural changes it was forced to take , Starts doing better, much better,

what do you think these other peripheral economies would think? Do you think they will also depart the Union or do you think they will stay and have Germany dictate terms to them?

I agree with one thing

"Without careful decisions Europe is doomed,starting with Greece!"

[MAJIC]

Hard to watch to goings on in Greece and not get the feeling that it is all a scripted drama for media consumption.

Either way, like so many countries, the rich robbed the place blind and have handed the bill to the masses. They voted no deals on the debt yet the government is now dealing, regardless whether right or wrong shows what a fraud democracy has become.

I have thought about that also. I cant believe that the learned officials of the member countries dont know that which all of as know.

It is possible that all these are for public consumption to make all the structural changes necessary for the EU to be a viable Union more palatable for the public.

Greece will not be allowed to leave the Union. the situation that Greece is in , is because of the Union. Before the Union Greece grease behaved as it did now and had the same structural problems, but Greece was able to deal with them because Greece had control of t's economy, and was able to adjust the economic controls. If Greece leaves the Union all the necessary adjustments will be made, such as devaluating it's currency to meet realities, and creating conditions for growth. All these moves combined with the structural Greek changes already in place, will see the Greek situation improve rapidly, and soon Greece will thrive. This will not be lost on all the other ailing , so called peripheral economies, they must know that the EU structure as it is now is conducive to wealth flowing from the weak importing economies to the strong exporting economies , and they will soon follow Greece unraveling the EU.

I'm sorry you don't get it,Greece is a two times loser,and this episode makes them a three times loser.Greece can't survive unless it has massive cash injections from the EU. And I might add free of interest and the need to pay back loans,as they are very good telling the world by not paying back their loans, which reminds me of plenty of other third world Countries.

[AYJAYDEE]

Hard to watch to goings on in Greece and not get the feeling that it is all a scripted drama for media consumption.

Either way, like so many countries, the rich robbed the place blind and have handed the bill to the masses. They voted no deals on the debt yet the government is now dealing, regardless whether right or wrong shows what a fraud democracy has become.

I have thought about that also. I cant believe that the learned officials of the member countries dont know that which all of as know.

It is possible that all these are for public consumption to make all the structural changes necessary for the EU to be a viable Union more palatable for the public.

Greece will not be allowed to leave the Union. the situation that Greece is in , is because of the Union. Before the Union Greece grease behaved as it did now and had the same structural problems, but Greece was able to deal with them because Greece had control of t's economy, and was able to adjust the economic controls. If Greece leaves the Union all the necessary adjustments will be made, such as devaluating it's currency to meet realities, and creating conditions for growth. All these moves combined with the structural Greek changes already in place, will see the Greek situation improve rapidly, and soon Greece will thrive. This will not be lost on all the other ailing , so called peripheral economies, they must know that the EU structure as it is now is conducive to wealth flowing from the weak importing economies to the strong exporting economies , and they will soon follow Greece unraveling the EU.

I'm sorry you don't get it,Greece is a two times loser,and this episode makes them a three times loser.Greece can't survive unless it has massive cash injections from the EU. And I might add free of interest and the need to pay back loans,as they are very good telling the world by not paying back their loans, which reminds me of plenty of other third world Countries.

and first world banks

[NeverSure]

It's obvious that the EU is more afraid of a Greek exit than Greece is afraid of the EU. An exit would mean the unwinding of the Euro banking system as fractional reserve banking went into reverse.

The EU is desperate to find some way to hold onto Greece. That's obvious because if it wasn't it would have kicked Greece out by now. It can't or all the air starts going out of the balloon.

Economies can't shrink without disastrous results and once that starts it's very hard to reverse. The whole of the EU as a group doesn't have the economic engine to support all of this. Greece is the canary in the coal mine. The whole thing is toxic, not just Greece.

Cheers.

[MAJIC]

Yes now the trust is broken, it was broken before because the previous government promised many things too and never delivered. Now with the referendum they broke even more trust. The other countries just dont believe the Greeks will do what they agreed to.

Now calls are there to kick them out (Finland, Germany) and its on their own head. I hope they kick them out they are just not to be trusted.

I also think its good for the Greeks and Europeans if the Greeks leave and never come back. Let it be a lesson to all other countries that agreements need to be kept

I am pro Europe and Euro.. just not with countries like that that want the benefits but are not willing to play by the rules.

Yes! and the problem is: if Greece is not kicked out of Europe,then it will be a signal to Portugal,Ireland,Spain,and any other Bankrupt Countries that they can do the same,Rumania,and Bulgaria,..........Without careful decisions Europe is doomed,starting with Greece!

Or.... supposed Greece departs the Union and then starts doing better, while many of the other peripheral countries languish under a union with structural monetary inadequate that are conductive to wealth flowing from the undeveloped economies, with low value added products to the developed economies with high value added products.

What if Greece unconstrained with the above adequateness and helped by all the structural changes it was forced to take , Starts doing better, much better,

what do you think these other peripheral economies would think? Do you think they will also depart the Union or do you think they will stay and have Germany dictate terms to them?

I agree with one thing

"Without careful decisions Europe is doomed,starting with Greece!"

Interesting to see that Greece can do a "Runner" and default on their debts,from Bailout phase 1 and phase 2,and we are now dealing with phase 3,which is now pretty obvious is never going to be paid back,Greece is like a non performing employee,that needs to be sacked! sadly the people will suffer,should this happen!

[MAJIC]

It's obvious that the EU is more afraid of a Greek exit than Greece is afraid of the EU. An exit would mean the unwinding of the Euro banking system as fractional reserve banking went into reverse.

The EU is desperate to find some way to hold onto Greece. That's obvious because if it wasn't it would have kicked Greece out by now. It can't or all the air starts going out of the balloon.

Economies can't shrink without disastrous results and once that starts it's very hard to reverse. The whole of the EU as a group doesn't have the economic engine to support all of this. Greece is the canary in the coal mine. The whole thing is toxic, not just Greece.

Cheers.

Yes the house of cards may well fall down, if Greece is forced out of the EU. of course they know this,that is their trump card. How they use it is questionable behaviour,and will make them no friends!

[sirineou]

Yes now the trust is broken, it was broken before because the previous government promised many things too and never delivered. Now with the referendum they broke even more trust. The other countries just dont believe the Greeks will do what they agreed to.

Now calls are there to kick them out (Finland, Germany) and its on their own head. I hope they kick them out they are just not to be trusted.

I also think its good for the Greeks and Europeans if the Greeks leave and never come back. Let it be a lesson to all other countries that agreements need to be kept

I am pro Europe and Euro.. just not with countries like that that want the benefits but are not willing to play by the rules.

Yes! and the problem is: if Greece is not kicked out of Europe,then it will be a signal to Portugal,Ireland,Spain,and any other Bankrupt Countries that they can do the same,Rumania,and Bulgaria,..........Without careful decisions Europe is doomed,starting with Greece!

Or.... supposed Greece departs the Union and then starts doing better, while many of the other peripheral countries languish under a union with structural monetary inadequate that are conductive to wealth flowing from the undeveloped economies, with low value added products to the developed economies with high value added products.

What if Greece unconstrained with the above adequateness and helped by all the structural changes it was forced to take , Starts doing better, much better,

what do you think these other peripheral economies would think? Do you think they will also depart the Union or do you think they will stay and have Germany dictate terms to them?

I agree with one thing

"Without careful decisions Europe is doomed,starting with Greece!"

Interesting to see that Greece can do a "Runner" and default on their debts,from Bailout phase 1 and phase 2,and we are now dealing with phase 3,which is now pretty obvious is never going to be paid back,Greece is like a non performing employee,that needs to be sacked! sadly the people will suffer,should this happen!

You have never heard of anyone defaulting on their loan?

Greece could easily default and dictate it's own terms of repayment,

perhaps a moratorium until Greece's GDP returns to pre-crash levels and then only as a percentage of trade balance.

[smedly]

Yes! and the problem is: if Greece is not kicked out of Europe,then it will be a signal to Portugal,Ireland,Spain,and any other Bankrupt Countries that they can do the same,Rumania,and Bulgaria,..........Without careful decisions Europe is doomed,starting with Greece!

Or.... supposed Greece departs the Union and then starts doing better, while many of the other peripheral countries languish under a union with structural monetary inadequate that are conductive to wealth flowing from the undeveloped economies, with low value added products to the developed economies with high value added products.

What if Greece unconstrained with the above adequateness and helped by all the structural changes it was forced to take , Starts doing better, much better,

what do you think these other peripheral economies would think? Do you think they will also depart the Union or do you think they will stay and have Germany dictate terms to them?

I agree with one thing

"Without careful decisions Europe is doomed,starting with Greece!"

Interesting to see that Greece can do a "Runner" and default on their debts,from Bailout phase 1 and phase 2,and we are now dealing with phase 3,which is now pretty obvious is never going to be paid back,Greece is like a non performing employee,that needs to be sacked! sadly the people will suffer,should this happen!

You have never heard of anyone defaulting on their loan?

Greece could easily default and dictate it's own terms of repayment,

perhaps a moratorium until Greece's GDP returns to pre-crash levels and then only as a percentage of trade balance.

I have heard of loan defaulting, I have never heard of a creditor giving another huge loan and then the debtor defaulting and then being offered another third huge loan - how stupid is that

[sirineou]

Or.... supposed Greece departs the Union and then starts doing better, while many of the other peripheral countries languish under a union with structural monetary inadequate that are conductive to wealth flowing from the undeveloped economies, with low value added products to the developed economies with high value added products.

What if Greece unconstrained with the above adequateness and helped by all the structural changes it was forced to take , Starts doing better, much better,

what do you think these other peripheral economies would think? Do you think they will also depart the Union or do you think they will stay and have Germany dictate terms to them?

I agree with one thing

"Without careful decisions Europe is doomed,starting with Greece!"

Interesting to see that Greece can do a "Runner" and default on their debts,from Bailout phase 1 and phase 2,and we are now dealing with phase 3,which is now pretty obvious is never going to be paid back,Greece is like a non performing employee,that needs to be sacked! sadly the people will suffer,should this happen!

You have never heard of anyone defaulting on their loan?

Greece could easily default and dictate it's own terms of repayment,

perhaps a moratorium until Greece's GDP returns to pre-crash levels and then only as a percentage of trade balance.

I have heard of loan defaulting, I have never heard of a creditor giving another huge loan and then the debtor defaulting and then being offered another third huge loan - how stupid is that

removed post to allow reply

90% of all money lend to Greece, the so called bailout, goes to the creditors,

Greece is being kept on life support.so that the creditors can get paid.

After six years of austerity and bailouts, Greece now owes more than when they started.

and their GDP has shrunk by 25%

The prudent approach in my opinion, would had being, to have imposed a moratorium, or a restructure that delayed payment on the debt, have used these six years to grow the Greek economy rather than destroy it,

and now the Union would be stronger, Greece would be stronger, the debt would be a smaller percentage of it's GDP, and manageable,the creditors would be being paid, with out bailouts.

and with out humiliating the Greek people

This situation has being mishandled IMO and in the opinion of many prominent economists from day one.

[puck2]

The problem with the Geecs, the Euro and the EU unveil a lot of flaws. Although visible since 5 (7) years they haven't been touched re. solved. To name only a few

• political progress for a "union". That means sacrificing a lot of national rigths for the union's benefit

• legal progress, including European law enforcement that can be against national interests (or pride as now in Geece)

• economic unity to support the financially weak states. But that shouldn't mean supporting sponging

It seems impossible to unify 28 different states under one umbrella without war(s). But we shouldn't forget, that there is a progress step by step.

• (for me most important) no war between the member states within 70 years

• an European Court

• already a lot of useful laws for all members; i.e.: a lot of banking regulations which reduce the the power of money, at least partially. Remember that VISA and Mastercard received a lot of restrictions against raising fees for the money monopolists. Money transfers within the EU have been regulated (against banking interests).

• free movements within the EU - including it's negative elements, but in general positive.

• a single currency - not yet for all, because missing the requirements - is positiv in general with benefits for the trade, companies, economy and the people

• there already exists a support for the poorer states. The financially strong ones pay more into the EU pot than they receive: GER; FRA, ENG, IT, NL ..... to the Baltic States, Slowenia, Slowakia; POR ....

• and the list goes on

It's like in a club. To reconcile all differences is taking time. To handle a member with a blackmaling attitude isn't easy.

[puck2]

<----->

My special request to ECB:

Money and its currency is a matter of trust.

I've been working more all my life, made my own austerity program just to save enough for Asia when I'm old. The currency exchange rate was 44 THB : 1 EUR when I left Europe. Now give me a good reason to trust Eurozone. Thanks in advance for keeping promises.

If you are not able to consider ups and downs in exchange rates when going to a foreign country, don't ask the ECB. But ask yourself if you can trust your brain.

[puck2]

In another thread you talked about "money". When I requested you to explain and improve what you had written we got an unrelated table to your "money"

Yesterday you wrote this nonsense, absolutly absurd and not confirmed in your (German) PDF.

http://www.bbaw.de/publikationen/stellungnahmen-empfehlungen/bericht-staatsschulden
Sorry, only available as PDF in German.

According to this, German debts rounded up to 670 pct of German Domestic Product in 2013. German GDP was 2.8 trillion EUR then, German debts accordingly 18.5 trillion EUR.
Guess where the money goes.

To show you reliable facts for 2014:

from Deutsche Bundesbank : German state dept = 2.168 Billion €s (in English: 2,168 Trillion €s)

from Deutsche Bundesbank: German dept ratio (to GDP) = sank to 74,7 %, (NOT 670% as in your statement).

And again: if you would be /were able to read and understand this complicated content of your mentioned PDF (in German language) you wouldn't write such a nonsense. Trusting your comments is as trusting Greeks (Trispas) promises.

If I'm wrong, the same request as before: pleas show me my "mistake".

Edited July 13, 2015 by puck2