Eurozone 'agreement' on Greece debt

[SheungWan]

Best thing Tsipras can do after they have voted for the reforms is call a general election because after failing his "single policy" election manifesto and the referendum fiasco the Greeks do no trust him, nor does Europe or the rest of the world.

Huh ? After the reforms ?

Tsipras says summit outcome averts collapse of banking system and that says it all.

the banking system is the cancer and he caved into keeping it on life support.

Shame on him for going against the will of the people.

He is a traitor and will go down in history as a betrayor.

The birthplace of democracy is also now its deathbed because of him.

The will of the people meaning the Greek people wanting the rest of Europe continuing the free lunch presumably. Tsipras may have decided to go for the Dirty Harry 'are you feeling lucky punk' scene 1, whereas your recommendation for Greece would still be to go for the 'are you feeling lucky punk' scene 2 presumably.

https://youtu.be/V7Nci-GVuHE

Edited July 13, 2015 by SheungWan

[VINCENT2012]

tell me if i am wrong cause the numbers are so big i could make a mistake but:

53.500 000 000 (billion-euro) divided per 11 500 000 (estimation of the greec population 2015) equal 4608 milion per head ....divided again per 3 years = 1536 milion per head per year

divided per 12 mounth =

128 milion per habitant per mounth during 3 years....

wwwwwwwwwwhoua! am i right?

now what the hell do they do with the money ??????????????????????????????vwhat is it that they can not arrange with those sums?

cut the crap, bankrupt and new start is the solution

Looks like 4,652.17 EUR per Greek to me.

can not be...... again 1,000,000,000 (one billion, short scale; one thousand million or milliard)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,000,000,000

if it was 1 thousand million only , divided in 10 millions of people...it would be 100 million per person....but it is 53 times that quantity

[ggold]

If the Greek government vote yes on this deal they will have sold their country to the EU. They will have to put 50billion of state assets into a fund the EU will control, then privatise these assets and use 50% of the sales to pay off debt. the other 50% for Greece to reinvest.

I really hope they vote against, because this will end badly which ever way it goes. Just delaying the inevitable, IMO.

Interesting to see if Tsipras is still PM come Wednesday?

The Greeks have been living on borrowed money for years...

I think you would be sore if you gave someone money so they could feed themselves only to see buying lobster, fine wine and them partying out on on it.

Do you not think it right for a lender to ask for some tangible assets as security against the money lent?

So you think the Greek people have been dinning on Lobster and fine wines these past five years? This deal is worse than the deal Tsipras had a referendum over. I guess we will have to wait to see if the Greek government accept the deal!

The point is the Euro is dead, this whole fiasco has shown the Euro is not here for ever. The reality is The EU should not lend any more money to Greece. Next expect Portugal and Spains economy to be tested. But I wonder where the money will come from when the next southern EU nation needs bailing out? This isn't over by a long shot.

Does Germany really want to pay for all these bailouts?

[ggold]

If the Greek government vote yes on this deal they will have sold their country to the EU. They will have to put 50billion of state assets into a fund the EU will control, then privatise these assets and use 50% of the sales to pay off debt. the other 50% for Greece to reinvest.

I really hope they vote against, because this will end badly which ever way it goes. Just delaying the inevitable, IMO.

Interesting to see if Tsipras is still PM come Wednesday?

If that is the agreement then excellent. Clearly the Greek government thoroughly incontinent in managing its own affairs.

I would suggest the EU is thoroughly incontinent at managing its affairs too!

[kiwikeith]

What I keep wondering is what is the projected Greek revenue going to look like in a year or two under these proposals to be able to service what will now be their even bigger debts ?

How many would-be tourists will keep going to Greece with the prospect of paying these higher taxes such as in hotels and when the Greeks themselves are hardly going to be a happy crowd (I can't blame them) working under these proposed conditions?

how many tourists will say they will pay the extra money to travel and go to alternative places such as Cuba or some of the islands off Africa?

The other point is while many tourists may not live in countries that have austerity, nevertheless even their real incomes are also being slowly eroded so they will have less affordability and seem less likely to want to travel to countries where are they will be imposing such draconian taxes?

Don't worry there is a can kicker coming to your location soon!

Exit the Euro German Economic prisoner Greeks, you are being economicaly separated (rich to suicide) but you are not alone they are coming to get all of you with the austerity pension robbing, job stripping Bankster corporate gangs.

Athens will live again but only as a corporation, the small shop owners have gone to heaven, WALMART has opened in Greece- the peasants have died from disease , if you dont have a job or health insurance go to the mountains and repopulate an abandoned village, or as Cameron would say if you cant make it in London go to Birmingham.

[RickBradford]

It's worth remembering that it was the Brussels 'colleagues', keen to show the ever closer integration of Europe, who shoehorned Greece into the Euro even though it failed to meet any of the criteria.

[Asiantravel]

Best thing Tsipras can do after they have voted for the reforms is call a general election because after failing his "single policy" election manifesto and the referendum fiasco the Greeks do no trust him, nor does Europe or the rest of the world.

Huh ? After the reforms ?

Tsipras says summit outcome averts collapse of banking system and that says it all.

the banking system is the cancer and he caved into keeping it on life support.

Shame on him for going against the will of the people.

He is a traitor and will go down in history as a betrayor.

The birthplace of democracy is also now its deathbed because of him.

The will of the people meaning the Greek people wanting the rest of Europe continuing the free lunch presumably. Tsipras may have decided to go for the Dirty Harry 'are you feeling lucky punk' scene 1, whereas your recommendation for Greece would still be to go for the 'are you feeling lucky punk' scene 2 presumably.

https://youtu.be/V7Nci-GVuHE

nah ! The Simpsons sums it up much better

[stevenl]

It's worth remembering that it was the Brussels 'colleagues', keen to show the ever closer integration of Europe, who shoehorned Greece into the Euro even though it failed to meet any of the criteria.

Yes, after Greece and that bank doctored the numbers.

[NeverSure]

If the Greek government vote yes on this deal they will have sold their country to the EU. They will have to put 50billion of state assets into a fund the EU will control, then privatise these assets and use 50% of the sales to pay off debt. the other 50% for Greece to reinvest.

I really hope they vote against, because this will end badly which ever way it goes. Just delaying the inevitable, IMO.

Interesting to see if Tsipras is still PM come Wednesday?

The Greeks have been living on borrowed money for years...

I think you would be sore if you gave someone money so they could feed themselves only to see buying lobster, fine wine and them partying out on on it.

Do you not think it right for a lender to ask for some tangible assets as security against the money lent?

So you think the Greek people have been dinning on Lobster and fine wines these past five years? This deal is worse than the deal Tsipras had a referendum over. I guess we will have to wait to see if the Greek government accept the deal!

The point is the Euro is dead, this whole fiasco has shown the Euro is not here for ever. The reality is The EU should not lend any more money to Greece. Next expect Portugal and Spains economy to be tested. But I wonder where the money will come from when the next southern EU nation needs bailing out? This isn't over by a long shot.

Does Germany really want to pay for all these bailouts?

"Does Germany really want to pay for all these bailouts?"

Why not? It's only Monopoly money Euros. The Euro is one of the biggest scams of the 20th century. It isn't backed by the full faith and credit of any sovereign country. Everyone can just throw his hands up and call it dead. All it is, is some paper and coins and some numbers on some balance sheets.

The GB Pound for instance is backed by the full faith and credit of the UK. Everyone knows who to go to for collection of the promise. The Euro, not at all.

When push comes to shove, no one will own up to the Euro. Fingers will point as each country bails. Who does someone holding Euros go to to collect then?

I own Pounds and USD because I know who's door to knock on to collect my money. If when the Euro collapses there will be nowhere, no one.

Cheers

[winstonc]

So, the EU is going to loan Greece more money to pay off the loans that they cannot pay off now. When these new loan payments are due we will see a repeat of the current mess. This is just throwing good money after bad.

The leaders of the EU must know this as well, they are either leaving this problem to their successors or they have decided to eternally support Greece's finances just to keep them in the EU.

this money is to pay german/french banks only 8% goes to the public..12% to investment..greece has been raped in full view of the cameras discraceful behavior .........ukip for me..

[winstonc]

If the Greek government vote yes on this deal they will have sold their country to the EU. They will have to put 50billion of state assets into a fund the EU will control, then privatise these assets and use 50% of the sales to pay off debt. the other 50% for Greece to reinvest.

I really hope they vote against, because this will end badly which ever way it goes. Just delaying the inevitable, IMO.

Interesting to see if Tsipras is still PM come Wednesday?

The Greeks have been living on borrowed money for years...

I think you would be sore if you gave someone money so they could feed themselves only to see buying lobster, fine wine and them partying out on on it.

Do you not think it right for a lender to ask for some tangible assets as security against the money lent?

So you think the Greek people have been dinning on Lobster and fine wines these past five years? This deal is worse than the deal Tsipras had a referendum over. I guess we will have to wait to see if the Greek government accept the deal!

The point is the Euro is dead, this whole fiasco has shown the Euro is not here for ever. The reality is The EU should not lend any more money to Greece. Next expect Portugal and Spains economy to be tested. But I wonder where the money will come from when the next southern EU nation needs bailing out? This isn't over by a long shot.

Does Germany really want to pay for all these bailouts?

germany should pay for there wanting to dominate europe again...merkel has got some gaul to go on at greece about money..germany had most of its war debt cancelled to rebuild but lets not let the truth get in the way of greeces misery eh..

[teatree]

Where did all the money go?, now they are going

to give them more money,they are never going to

be able to pay off what they already owe,so give

them more !

regards Worgeordie

The answer is pretty simple:

About 90% of all the bail out money went directly to the big banks !

The only thing that happened is to transfer the depth from public lenders to now sovereign lenders [meaning the tax payers of europe] !

This is all just a big theft from the banks in accordance with the EU ...

Mario Dragi [head of the ECB] comes from Goldman Sachs ... and he didn't forget where he came from.

For the rest of the story:

The simple question would be:

What did Greece actually get from the banks ?

As banks create money out of nothing, why do they actually have to give something back they have never received ?

The monetary system is the problem ... not Greece !!!

And Goldman Sachs (if I recall right) made the audit that confirmed that Greece is within the regulations for joining the Euro.

It is not the monetary system it is the strange mix of capitalism and communism caused by corruption.

Corporate fascism - the merger of state and big business.

A number of ex Goldman Sachs employees hold or have held positions of power in the EU, perhaps most notably Mario Draghi the President of the European Central Bank.

[Asiantravel]

Here are some stunning revelations from Varoufakis the former Greek Finance Minister who after resigning now has the freedom to really spill the beans

and I would rather believe Varoufakis any day than that sock puppet prime minister.

“ Varoufakis was reluctant to name individuals, but added that the governments that might have been expected to be the most sympathetic towards Greece were actually their “most energetic enemies”. The “greatest nightmare” of those with large debts – the governments of countries like Portugal, Spain, Italy and Ireland – “was our success”. “ Were we to succeed in negotiating a better deal, that would obliterate them politically: they would have to answer to their own people why they didn’t negotiate like we were doing.”

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece

[kiwikeith]

Unless the government cuts spending which means a lot of the promised benefits they will never get out of debt.

I think that there is going to be a lot to hate if you are a greek but if you think you realize that you have to curb what you are doing.

This is a lesson that a lot of countries like the U.S. and U.K need to heed.

The US is close to being in the same place as Greeece the only benefit they have is that they can print their own money.

We (the UK) would have been in this mess had we elected a socialist government five years ago who thought the answer was to spend their way out of the mess we were in.

Yes the last five years have been tough but we in the UK have built strong foundations for a brighter future.

Brighter Future was the Motto for the John Key tory government in NZ.

A so called Rock Star economy, that is in huge debt, highest suicide rate, highest child poverty. has asset stripped the country, privatised prisons but sings a song of how well we are off. Property market out of control, soon to be a suburb of Bejing (sound familiar)

Britain is in huge debt so I dont know where your strong foundation came from.

[NeverSure]

We (the UK) would have been in this mess had we elected a socialist government five years ago who thought the answer was to spend their way out of the mess we were in.

Yes the last five years have been tough but we in the UK have built strong foundations for a brighter future.

Because the UK is up there with the rest of the money printers. Only the UK is more silent about it . If everybody is "printing money" , QE-ing or that ever you call it , how can currencies devalue ?

Yes, the UK is going deep into debt - it's debt is almost as much as a percentage of GDP as that of the US, but the UK doesn't have the economic engine or the natural resources to back it. Some say that the UK is actually deeper in debt than the US.

About this money printing - one more time. Governments haven't been printing money or in any way causing more of their money to come into existence for QE or anything similar.

QE, or "increasing the money supply" is done by increasing the percentage of depositors' money that banks can loan. That releases a lot more money into the general, private economy. At the same time, central banks push interest rates much lower to entice individuals and businesses to borrow.

This is stimulating. This is probably the #1 factor that caused the US housing market to recover. Interest rates got so low that investors began buying houses for rentals because a combination of low prices and low interest rates made payments so low that rentals would generate cash flow. Please note that it's proven that if people don't buy homes or they lose their homes, they rent sending rental rates up. Eventually high rent prices make it attractive to buy at the low prices and interest rates and the inventory of houses gets bought out.

Again, there are no more USD or Pounds in the world than there were ten years ago other than to adjust for inflation. Only a tiny percentage of money is found in paper bills and coins and that number can go up as needed to supply people's needs without making a dent in the total money supply.

Money is mostly in banks in deposit accounts or in other paper such as bonds.

Cheers.

[ggold]

If the Greek government vote yes on this deal they will have sold their country to the EU. They will have to put 50billion of state assets into a fund the EU will control, then privatise these assets and use 50% of the sales to pay off debt. the other 50% for Greece to reinvest.

I really hope they vote against, because this will end badly which ever way it goes. Just delaying the inevitable, IMO.

Interesting to see if Tsipras is still PM come Wednesday?

The Greeks have been living on borrowed money for years...

I think you would be sore if you gave someone money so they could feed themselves only to see buying lobster, fine wine and them partying out on on it.

Do you not think it right for a lender to ask for some tangible assets as security against the money lent?

So you think the Greek people have been dinning on Lobster and fine wines these past five years? This deal is worse than the deal Tsipras had a referendum over. I guess we will have to wait to see if the Greek government accept the deal!

The point is the Euro is dead, this whole fiasco has shown the Euro is not here for ever. The reality is The EU should not lend any more money to Greece. Next expect Portugal and Spains economy to be tested. But I wonder where the money will come from when the next southern EU nation needs bailing out? This isn't over by a long shot.

Does Germany really want to pay for all these bailouts?

germany should pay for there wanting to dominate europe again...merkel has got some gaul to go on at greece about money..germany had most of its war debt cancelled to rebuild but lets not let the truth get in the way of greeces misery eh..

If you think about it, this is the second loan the Germans have forced on the Greeks! But the Greeks were kind and wrote off the German debt in 1953. Looks like we might have to wait till the next bailout before things go pear shaped.

[Aforek]

The point is the Euro is dead, this whole fiasco has shown the Euro is not here for ever.

You who knows everything, especially the future, can you explain to us why Euro is dead ? funny to see all these American TV members here who bury euro ; are you afraid ?

you are like all of us : you know nothing ! see you in two years, may be you are right, may be you are wrong

[Ulic]

Personally I didn't see this coming. I thought Greece was going to be pushed out the door to the

benefit of both Europe and Greece. The Euro is just too strong a currency for a second world

economy like Greece. Lovely people but with tourism the most important segment of the economy

to bring foreign money into the country the ace up the sleeve they need to keep hotel beds and

beaches full is a lower value currency.

[Basil B]

Best thing Tsipras can do after they have voted for the reforms is call a general election because after failing his "single policy" election manifesto and the referendum fiasco the Greeks do no trust him, nor does Europe or the rest of the world.

Huh ? After the reforms ?

Tsipras says summit outcome averts collapse of banking system and that says it all.

the banking system is the cancer and he caved into keeping it on life support.

Shame on him for going against the will of the people.

He is a traitor and will go down in history as a betrayor.

The birthplace of democracy is also now its deathbed because of him.

[Anthony5]

We (the UK) would have been in this mess had we elected a socialist government five years ago who thought the answer was to spend their way out of the mess we were in.

Yes the last five years have been tough but we in the UK have built strong foundations for a brighter future.

Because the UK is up there with the rest of the money printers. Only the UK is more silent about it . If everybody is "printing money" , QE-ing or that ever you call it , how can currencies devalue ?

Yes, the UK is going deep into debt - it's debt is almost as much as a percentage of GDP as that of the US, but the UK doesn't have the economic engine or the natural resources to back it. Some say that the UK is actually deeper in debt than the US.

About this money printing - one more time. Governments haven't been printing money or in any way causing more of their money to come into existence for QE or anything similar.

QE, or "increasing the money supply" is done by increasing the percentage of depositors' money that banks can loan. That releases a lot more money into the general, private economy. At the same time, central banks push interest rates much lower to entice individuals and businesses to borrow.

This is stimulating. This is probably the #1 factor that caused the US housing market to recover. Interest rates got so low that investors began buying houses for rentals because a combination of low prices and low interest rates made payments so low that rentals would generate cash flow. Please note that it's proven that if people don't buy homes or they lose their homes, they rent sending rental rates up. Eventually high rent prices make it attractive to buy at the low prices and interest rates and the inventory of houses gets bought out.

Again, there are no more USD or Pounds in the world than there were ten years ago other than to adjust for inflation. Only a tiny percentage of money is found in paper bills and coins and that number can go up as needed to supply people's needs without making a dent in the total money supply.

Money is mostly in banks in deposit accounts or in other paper such as bonds.

Cheers.

So QE isn't printing money? So they buy all the debts with egg shells?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_easing#Printing_money

"What the Bank of England does in quantitative easing is it prints money to buy government debt, and so what has happened is the government has run a huge deficit over the past three years, but instead of having to find other people to lend it that money, the Bank of England has printed money to pay for the government deficit. If that QE hadn't happened then the government would have needed to find real people to buy its debt. So the Quantitative Easing has enabled governments, this government, to run a big budget deficit without killing the economy because the Bank of England has financed it. Now you can't do that for long because people get wise to it and it causes inflation and so on, but that's what it has done: money has been printed to fund the deficit." ^[119]

[SheungWan]

If you think about it, this is the second loan the Germans have forced on the Greeks! But the Greeks were kind and wrote off the German debt in 1953. Looks like we might have to wait till the next bailout before things go pear shaped.

The suggestion that the Greeks have loans 'forced' on them a complete fiction. Greeks kind to Germany and expect reciprocation? More invention.

[SheungWan]

Best thing Tsipras can do after they have voted for the reforms is call a general election because after failing his "single policy" election manifesto and the referendum fiasco the Greeks do no trust him, nor does Europe or the rest of the world.

Calling now an election would not be surprising. Then Syriza could split and the 'harder left' can repudiate any current agreement. We have been here before, but next time round Euroland would just turn their backs and let the fools get on with it.

[SheungWan]

Here are some stunning revelations from Varoufakis the former Greek Finance Minister who after resigning now has the freedom to really spill the beans

and I would rather believe Varoufakis any day than that sock puppet prime minister.

“ Varoufakis was reluctant to name individuals, but added that the governments that might have been expected to be the most sympathetic towards Greece were actually their “most energetic enemies”. The “greatest nightmare” of those with large debts – the governments of countries like Portugal, Spain, Italy and Ireland – “was our success”. “ Were we to succeed in negotiating a better deal, that would obliterate them politically: they would have to answer to their own people why they didn’t negotiate like we were doing.”

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece

Varoufakis is a clown who convinced nobody.

[NeverSure]

We (the UK) would have been in this mess had we elected a socialist government five years ago who thought the answer was to spend their way out of the mess we were in.

Yes the last five years have been tough but we in the UK have built strong foundations for a brighter future.

Because the UK is up there with the rest of the money printers. Only the UK is more silent about it . If everybody is "printing money" , QE-ing or that ever you call it , how can currencies devalue ?

Yes, the UK is going deep into debt - it's debt is almost as much as a percentage of GDP as that of the US, but the UK doesn't have the economic engine or the natural resources to back it. Some say that the UK is actually deeper in debt than the US.

About this money printing - one more time. Governments haven't been printing money or in any way causing more of their money to come into existence for QE or anything similar.

QE, or "increasing the money supply" is done by increasing the percentage of depositors' money that banks can loan. That releases a lot more money into the general, private economy. At the same time, central banks push interest rates much lower to entice individuals and businesses to borrow.

This is stimulating. This is probably the #1 factor that caused the US housing market to recover. Interest rates got so low that investors began buying houses for rentals because a combination of low prices and low interest rates made payments so low that rentals would generate cash flow. Please note that it's proven that if people don't buy homes or they lose their homes, they rent sending rental rates up. Eventually high rent prices make it attractive to buy at the low prices and interest rates and the inventory of houses gets bought out.

Again, there are no more USD or Pounds in the world than there were ten years ago other than to adjust for inflation. Only a tiny percentage of money is found in paper bills and coins and that number can go up as needed to supply people's needs without making a dent in the total money supply.

Money is mostly in banks in deposit accounts or in other paper such as bonds.

Cheers.

So QE isn't printing money? So they buy all the debts with egg shells?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_easing#Printing_money

"What the Bank of England does in quantitative easing is it prints money to buy government debt, and so what has happened is the government has run a huge deficit over the past three years, but instead of having to find other people to lend it that money, the Bank of England has printed money to pay for the government deficit. If that QE hadn't happened then the government would have needed to find real people to buy its debt. So the Quantitative Easing has enabled governments, this government, to run a big budget deficit without killing the economy because the Bank of England has financed it. Now you can't do that for long because people get wise to it and it causes inflation and so on, but that's what it has done: money has been printed to fund the deficit." ^[119]

We need to get definitions correct as does Wiki. I can go into Wiki and edit it right now and get rid of the rumor mill which only wiki writers and dumb blond TV reporters parrot.

The US Fed has never printed money. That's not it's domain. That is done by the US Treasury which is independent from the Fed. So let's start by getting that straight. Printed money is what you can put into your pocket - paper and coin currency. There is only about 1.3 trillion USD of US "printed money" in the whole world - enough to supply the demand world-wide for pocket money.

What the Fed does do is issue debt instruments to borrow money - treasuries. It's forbidden by law from buying them itself because that would be a totally phony transaction.*** It must sell the treasuries in the open market and there is always a demand.

So, to get more money, it is borrowed, not "printed".

To increase "the money supply" available to the private sector, bank lending restrictions are eased by allowing banks to lend a higher percentage of depositors' money. That doesn't create new money, but it does "increase the money supply" available to the marketplace.

The person who wrote that the Fed could reverse this increase in money supply was right about that, but wrong about how it would be done. The Fed would restrict lending of bank depositors' money, and increase interest rates to discourage borrowing, and there would be less money borrowed and spent into the economy by the private sector. The money supply would shrink because banks wouldn't have as much to lend.

I can do this all day...

Source: My career in banking.

*** The UK is indeed buying its own debt bonds which is totally phony. The UK's debt is about as big as that of the US as a ratio to GDP, but the UK hasn't the natural resource assets, the economic engine, or the willing borrowers to copy the US Fed. If you want to look for real trouble look at the UK and also the Eurozone which have created 100% of their recent money and recent debt obligations out of thin air. The Euro is created 100% out of thin air.

Cheers

Edited July 13, 2015 by NeverSure

[Anthony5]

Yes, the UK is going deep into debt - it's debt is almost as much as a percentage of GDP as that of the US, but the UK doesn't have the economic engine or the natural resources to back it. Some say that the UK is actually deeper in debt than the US.

About this money printing - one more time. Governments haven't been printing money or in any way causing more of their money to come into existence for QE or anything similar.

QE, or "increasing the money supply" is done by increasing the percentage of depositors' money that banks can loan. That releases a lot more money into the general, private economy. At the same time, central banks push interest rates much lower to entice individuals and businesses to borrow.

This is stimulating. This is probably the #1 factor that caused the US housing market to recover. Interest rates got so low that investors began buying houses for rentals because a combination of low prices and low interest rates made payments so low that rentals would generate cash flow. Please note that it's proven that if people don't buy homes or they lose their homes, they rent sending rental rates up. Eventually high rent prices make it attractive to buy at the low prices and interest rates and the inventory of houses gets bought out.

Again, there are no more USD or Pounds in the world than there were ten years ago other than to adjust for inflation. Only a tiny percentage of money is found in paper bills and coins and that number can go up as needed to supply people's needs without making a dent in the total money supply.

Money is mostly in banks in deposit accounts or in other paper such as bonds.

Cheers.

So QE isn't printing money? So they buy all the debts with egg shells?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_easing#Printing_money

"What the Bank of England does in quantitative easing is it prints money to buy government debt, and so what has happened is the government has run a huge deficit over the past three years, but instead of having to find other people to lend it that money, the Bank of England has printed money to pay for the government deficit. If that QE hadn't happened then the government would have needed to find real people to buy its debt. So the Quantitative Easing has enabled governments, this government, to run a big budget deficit without killing the economy because the Bank of England has financed it. Now you can't do that for long because people get wise to it and it causes inflation and so on, but that's what it has done: money has been printed to fund the deficit." ^[119]

We need to get definitions correct as does Wiki. I can go into Wiki and edit it right now and get rid of the rumor mill which only wiki writers and dumb blond TV reporters parrot.

The US Fed has never printed money. That's not it's domain. That is done by the US Treasury which is independent from the Fed. So let's start by getting that straight. Printed money is what you can put into your pocket - paper and coin currency. There is only about 1.3 trillion USD of US "printed money" in the whole world - enough to supply the demand world-wide for pocket money.

What the Fed does do is issue debt instruments to borrow money - treasuries. It's forbidden by law from buying them itself because that would be a totally phony transaction.*** It must sell the treasuries in the open market and there is always a demand.

So, to get more money, it is borrowed, not "printed".

To increase "the money supply" available to the private sector, bank lending restrictions are eased by allowing banks to lend a higher percentage of depositors' money. That doesn't create new money, but it does "increase the money supply" available to the marketplace.

The person who wrote that the Fed could reverse this increase in money supply was right about that, but wrong about how it would be done. The Fed would restrict lending of bank depositors' money, and increase interest rates to discourage borrowing, and there would be less money borrowed and spent into the economy by the private sector. The money supply would shrink because banks wouldn't have as much to lend.

I can do this all day...

Source: My career in banking.

*** The UK is indeed buying its own debt bonds which is totally phony. The UK's debt is about as big as that of the US as a ratio to GDP, but the UK hasn't the natural resource assets, the economic engine, or the willing borrowers to copy the US Fed. If you want to look for real trouble look at the UK and also the Eurozone which have created 100% of their money and recent debt obligations out of thin air.

Cheers

Ok, we all know about your career as a banker, and your career as a computer specialist, and cattle farmer, and world traveler and ..................

Just between us Neversure, are you really older than Methuselah?

So since you don't consider Wiki a credible source, I will quote one from US soli, called Forbes.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntamny/2014/03/09/the-fed-is-not-printing-money-its-doing-something-much-worse/

The Fed Is Not Printing Money, It's Doing Something Much Worse

Worse, the imposition of QE can only take place when the White House and Treasury support such a move, the latter support speaks to a desire on the part of the White House and Treasury to devalue the unit of account (the dollar), and as investors are buying future dollar income streams when they invest, QE acts as an investment deterrent.

Oh wait, I have another one. The economist, I'm sure that must be credible.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2015/03/economist-explains-5

The Economist explains What is quantitative easing?

Most rich-economy central bankers began printing money to buy assets during the Great Recession, and a few, like the Bank of Japan, are still at it. But what exactly is quantitative easing, and how is it supposed to work?

Several rounds of QE in America have increased the size of the Federal Reserve's balance sheet—the value of the assets it holds—from less than $1 trillion in 2007 to more than $4 trillion now.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Anthony5

[NeverSure]

So QE isn't printing money? So they buy all the debts with egg shells?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_easing#Printing_money

"What the Bank of England does in quantitative easing is it prints money to buy government debt, and so what has happened is the government has run a huge deficit over the past three years, but instead of having to find other people to lend it that money, the Bank of England has printed money to pay for the government deficit. If that QE hadn't happened then the government would have needed to find real people to buy its debt. So the Quantitative Easing has enabled governments, this government, to run a big budget deficit without killing the economy because the Bank of England has financed it. Now you can't do that for long because people get wise to it and it causes inflation and so on, but that's what it has done: money has been printed to fund the deficit." ^[119]

I just wrote a note at your link above asking for that article to be corrected. The Fed is prohibited by law from buying new treasuries as that would be phony. It sells them in the open marketplace so no, they don't buy them with egg shells or anything else. Here's my note I wrote at the top of your link in Wiki:

< This needs to be rewritten.> For instance below, "However, with QE, the newly created money is used to buy government bonds or other financial assets.." is incorrect as the Fed is prohibited by law from buying its own newly issued bonds. That would be a phony transaction.

While "printing money" is a nickname, and the Fed doesn't and never has printed money (the Treasury Dept. does) it is still a misnomer as the money is borrowed in the open marketplace. "Increasing the money supply" isn't done by creating new money. It is done by increasing the percentage of depositors' money banks can loan, and then enticing borrowing by influencing interest rates in a downward direction.

The writer below is correct that the Fed can tighten the money supply, but it's done by tightening bank lending to where it was or even being more restrictive. "Money supply" is expressed as M1 and M2.

A lot of people think that "the Fed prints money" to pay bills and it's a rampant but incorrect assumption almost world wide. This article needs to correct that. The Fed doesn't increase the total amount of USD in the world to "increase the money supply" or to borrow money. </note.>

[NeverSure]

Yes, the UK is going deep into debt - it's debt is almost as much as a percentage of GDP as that of the US, but the UK doesn't have the economic engine or the natural resources to back it. Some say that the UK is actually deeper in debt than the US.

About this money printing - one more time. Governments haven't been printing money or in any way causing more of their money to come into existence for QE or anything similar.

QE, or "increasing the money supply" is done by increasing the percentage of depositors' money that banks can loan. That releases a lot more money into the general, private economy. At the same time, central banks push interest rates much lower to entice individuals and businesses to borrow.

This is stimulating. This is probably the #1 factor that caused the US housing market to recover. Interest rates got so low that investors began buying houses for rentals because a combination of low prices and low interest rates made payments so low that rentals would generate cash flow. Please note that it's proven that if people don't buy homes or they lose their homes, they rent sending rental rates up. Eventually high rent prices make it attractive to buy at the low prices and interest rates and the inventory of houses gets bought out.

Again, there are no more USD or Pounds in the world than there were ten years ago other than to adjust for inflation. Only a tiny percentage of money is found in paper bills and coins and that number can go up as needed to supply people's needs without making a dent in the total money supply.

Money is mostly in banks in deposit accounts or in other paper such as bonds.

Cheers.

So QE isn't printing money? So they buy all the debts with egg shells?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_easing#Printing_money

"What the Bank of England does in quantitative easing is it prints money to buy government debt, and so what has happened is the government has run a huge deficit over the past three years, but instead of having to find other people to lend it that money, the Bank of England has printed money to pay for the government deficit. If that QE hadn't happened then the government would have needed to find real people to buy its debt. So the Quantitative Easing has enabled governments, this government, to run a big budget deficit without killing the economy because the Bank of England has financed it. Now you can't do that for long because people get wise to it and it causes inflation and so on, but that's what it has done: money has been printed to fund the deficit." ^[119]

We need to get definitions correct as does Wiki. I can go into Wiki and edit it right now and get rid of the rumor mill which only wiki writers and dumb blond TV reporters parrot.

The US Fed has never printed money. That's not it's domain. That is done by the US Treasury which is independent from the Fed. So let's start by getting that straight. Printed money is what you can put into your pocket - paper and coin currency. There is only about 1.3 trillion USD of US "printed money" in the whole world - enough to supply the demand world-wide for pocket money.

What the Fed does do is issue debt instruments to borrow money - treasuries. It's forbidden by law from buying them itself because that would be a totally phony transaction.*** It must sell the treasuries in the open market and there is always a demand.

So, to get more money, it is borrowed, not "printed".

To increase "the money supply" available to the private sector, bank lending restrictions are eased by allowing banks to lend a higher percentage of depositors' money. That doesn't create new money, but it does "increase the money supply" available to the marketplace.

The person who wrote that the Fed could reverse this increase in money supply was right about that, but wrong about how it would be done. The Fed would restrict lending of bank depositors' money, and increase interest rates to discourage borrowing, and there would be less money borrowed and spent into the economy by the private sector. The money supply would shrink because banks wouldn't have as much to lend.

I can do this all day...

Source: My career in banking.

*** The UK is indeed buying its own debt bonds which is totally phony. The UK's debt is about as big as that of the US as a ratio to GDP, but the UK hasn't the natural resource assets, the economic engine, or the willing borrowers to copy the US Fed. If you want to look for real trouble look at the UK and also the Eurozone which have created 100% of their money and recent debt obligations out of thin air.

Cheers

Ok, we all know about your career as a banker, and your career as a computer specialist, and cattle farmer, and world traveler and ..................

Just between us Neversure, are you really older than Methuselah?

So since you don't consider Wiki a credible source, I will quote one from US soli, called Forbes.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntamny/2014/03/09/the-fed-is-not-printing-money-its-doing-something-much-worse/

The Fed Is Not Printing Money, It's Doing Something Much Worse

Worse, the imposition of QE can only take place when the White House and Treasury support such a move, the latter support speaks to a desire on the part of the White House and Treasury to devalue the unit of account (the dollar), and as investors are buying future dollar income streams when they invest, QE acts as an investment deterrent.

Oh wait, I have another one. The economist, I'm sure that must be credible.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2015/03/economist-explains-5

The Economist explains What is quantitative easing?

Most rich-economy central bankers began printing money to buy assets during the Great Recession, and a few, like the Bank of Japan, are still at it. But what exactly is quantitative easing, and how is it supposed to work?

Several rounds of QE in America have increased the size of the Federal Reserve's balance sheet—the value of the assets it holds—from less than $1 trillion in 2007 to more than $4 trillion now.

You simply don't have the knowledge or the vocabulary to understand what you are reading. It says that "Most rich-economy central banks began printing money..." And then goes and tell that the US Fed didn't.

The author doesn't like what the Fed did, but he never accused it of "printing money" or increasing the total amount of USD in the world. In fact the author differentiated the Fed from what other countries have been doing.

What he missed mentioning is that the Fed honestly owes the money, while other countries did in fact create theirs out of thin air.

Watch out for the UK which does create money to buy its own debt bonds and is way worse off than the US Fed.

Cheers

[NeverSure]

Ok, we all know about your career as a banker, and your career as a computer specialist, and cattle farmer, and world traveler and ..................

Let's not get personal, OK? You're a good poster and I often "like" your posts. We don't need to be disagreeable.

I was fortunate to grow up on a 4,000 acre (10,000 rai) wheat and cattle ranch in the Western US. It was marvelous. My first career was as a banker and when I tired of it I went to school and became an IT specialist from which I retired.

It's been a great life and I wouldn't trade it for anything. Good luck to you.

Cheers

[NongKhaiKid]

The BBC are saying it's not quite a done deal as the conditions are strict and the Greek PM is facing problems with the far left of his party and sections of the public that consider he sold out.

I do think the ' lack of trust ' aspect that was widely held in Europe is justified and i wonder how long it will take for Greece to be back asking for more ?

[MW72]

Isn't finance crazy. All this debate about who is and isn't "printing" money. From what I've seen in documentries with economics professors, government finance ministers, world bank employees and so on, they all seem to agree that most countries including the US have been making money out of thin air whether by printing or borrowing. It seems that most banks can do it legally. It doesn't even need to be a central bank.

If all the money in the world was created by banks and lent out at interest then surely there can never be enough money in the world to pay off the debt and the interest.