The EU structural inadequacies

[sirineou]

Look at autos only. Germany and Japan came out of the ashes of WWII and by hard work joined the world economy producing quality products - new wealth. New wealth means more wealth to go around and just look at the jobs Japan has created for Thailand. Mercedes and BMW have taken the world as quality cars and they have manufacturing plants in the US. Ford and Chevy have manufacturing plants in Canada and Mexico and Ford is in Thailand. That's all new wealth.

Japan flooded the US with quality cars and now manufactures the Toyotas, Hondas, Toyota pickups etc. in the US for the US market. So does Lexus. That's new wealth for both the US and Japan.

What kind of car, scooter, TV, computer, smartphone, etc. is made in Greece? Why is that?

Cheers

NS, in this thread , I am afraid you are compliantly missing the point

This thread is about the structural inadequacies of the EU that have lead to this crisis.

are there other factors that led to this impasse? Sure, but that's not what we are talking about are the structural inadequacies with in the EU, what are they, how they contributed to this impasse, and how can they be overcome.

A main problem is divergent economies under the same currency, and how these economies can be made to converge with out hurting each other, so that the Euro can work as a common concurrency.

To say that the Greeks find themselves in this situation because they are "lazy" aside from

being racist, it shows a fundamental misunderstanding on the events that have led to this Greek situation, and threaten to unravel the EU.

I admite that in many subjects I am profoundly ignorant, ans as such, I refrain from forming an opinion, knowing that not only such opinion would be ignorant , but that at the same time I will make that ignorance evident to others. I am not saying this to insult you, even in other subjects where we disagree, you exhibit intelligence, and understanding of the issues.

No to in this case so far

and I am afraid you owe an apology to the Greek people for calling them "Lazy" , they are anything but that.

After WWII (and even before then) but for the purposes of this discussion, After WWII Greece got caught is a geopolitical game between the West and East not of it's own making, and was subjected to strains not present in other countries.For Greece WWII ended in 1974 with the fall of the military Junta that was installed in Greece by the west to combat the spread of communism in to the Mediterranean, It was marred with a civil war , again resulting from the political strains between the capitalist west and the communist east.political assassinations etc etc. A history too long a shorted to adequately examine in this reply. .

before then and after that, Greece was ruled by two dynastic political families, Papandreou, and Caramanlis. Their tenure was marked with pervasive corruption that western countries used to promote their agenda, enriching them selves and the politicians, and bridle the common Greeks with debt. This corrupt politicians, used a client system , to gain and maintain power, rewarding with jobs and pensions those who supported them and punishing those who did not. It was this dysfunctional system of governance that led to the current Greek situation.

http://www.spiegel.d...s-a-693973.html

The Greek government pretended to represent them,and Greeks pretended to pay tax. Would you want to pay your tax, if you knew that much of it would go in the pockets of corrupt politicians?

Case and point , Greeks are "Lazy" and economically unsuccessful with in Greece, but hard working and overly successful far beyond their representative numbers in other countries. How do you reconcile that?

So lt's get back at the subject at hand

Structural inadequacies with in the EU and can they be overcome. If you are interested ,watch the video I posted, you might not agree with it, but promises you you will find it interesting.

Post your own with opposing views, I am not beyond learning something new.

You have your idea of what this thread is about and I have mine.

I think it's about a structure that has productive, wealth creating countries frustrated at trying to carry a country which isn't. I think it's about the failure of socialism in Greece. I think it's a study in negative things that happen when the productive try to support the unproductive while the unproductive expect it as a human right. I think it's the canary in the coal mine because this type of entitlement socialism is pervasive in Europe. Europe is failing.

It is inevitable the the brilliant "economists" who dreamed up the Euro and yes, the Eurozone's free movement of the unproductive people to productive countries will fail. It is failing as we watch. The UK is shooting debt to the moon and it's buying it's own phony debt for several reasons, but that's grotesque. How long can you loan yourself money?

Germany and the UK are panicked about the prospect of even losing Greece as a sign that the Euro and Eurozone are failing because there's much more to come after Greece. It's simply not sustainable. The Euro was a massive mistake but where does even Germany go when it fails?

The proof in any debate will be that failure. It is failing.

Cheers.

To call the Euro "a massive mistake" shows a misunderstanding on how things were in Europe before the Euro,

can it be that you have not spend very much time there?

Before the Euro, people driving from one country to an other, had to carry several currencies, in their wallets, to be able to eat lunch and buy gas , and had to wait for hours at border crossings.

Import/export companies made more profit, or lost more money from currency fluctuations, than from their products.

Europe is not going back to that. Not to mention all the wars.

IMO Accommodations will be made,Structural impediments will be removed

At it's inception. the political will did not exist to make the necessary political changes, not sure if it exists now,

but one thing for sure, the current crisis has has made it apparent to the Europeans that the current condition is unsustainable, and since no one wants to go back to the way things were , might make the necessary political changes more palatable.

PS: news of the death of the EU are highly exaggerate

Edited July 19, 2015 by sirineou

[NeverSure]

To call the Euro "a massive mistake" shows a misunderstanding on how things were in Europe before the Euro,

can it be that you have not spend very much time there?

Before the Euro, people driving from one country to an other, had to carry several currencies, in their wallets, to be able to eat lunch and buy gas , and had to wait for hours at border crossings.

Import/export companies made more profit, or lost more money from currency fluctuations, than from their products.

Europe is not going back to that. Not to mention all the wars.

IMO Accommodations will be made,Structural impediments will be removed

At it's inception. the political will did not exist to make the necessary political changes, not sure if it exists now,

but one thing for sure, the current crisis has has made it apparent to the Europeans that the current condition is unsustainable, and since no one wants to go back to the way things were , might make the necessary political changes more palatable.

PS: news of the death of the EU are highly exaggerate

I have to wait at customs and use different currencies to drive into Canada and Mexico. I'm easily allowed in, but there is a process and sometimes a wait. Canada didn't wind up responsible for Mexico which is a third world country. We have a free trade agreement which entangles the countries in no other way. Just remove trade barriers. Would I accept the Mexican peso even for a cup of coffee? %$#@%& no.

A common currency sounds good but a disparate group of nations with different languages and cultures aren't going to blend. That's apparent. The people are ruled by people they didn't elect. The Eurozone has a central bank that's not accountable to the people. It's bleeding money it doesn't have.

When the US borrows money it issues treasuries and sells them on the open market. It's forbidden by law from buying them itself. The UK and the Eurozone are issuing bonds that they are buying themselves. How long can you loan yourself money to pay your expenses, LOL? Even the UK is bleeding due to Greece, and worse its other entitlements, especially the NHS are failing.

Wars? A common market and currency won't stop wars. It could be Russia for all we know. Then what? Some people call the Eurozone the 4th Reich. I can see part of the logic behind that.

Have fun. See you on the other side.

Cheers

[Thai at Heart]

Look at autos only. Germany and Japan came out of the ashes of WWII and by hard work joined the world economy producing quality products - new wealth. New wealth means more wealth to go around and just look at the jobs Japan has created for Thailand. Mercedes and BMW have taken the world as quality cars and they have manufacturing plants in the US. Ford and Chevy have manufacturing plants in Canada and Mexico and Ford is in Thailand. That's all new wealth.

Japan flooded the US with quality cars and now manufactures the Toyotas, Hondas, Toyota pickups etc. in the US for the US market. So does Lexus. That's new wealth for both the US and Japan.

What kind of car, scooter, TV, computer, smartphone, etc. is made in Greece? Why is that?

Cheers

NS, in this thread , I am afraid you are compliantly missing the point

This thread is about the structural inadequacies of the EU that have lead to this crisis.

are there other factors that led to this impasse? Sure, but that's not what we are talking about are the structural inadequacies with in the EU, what are they, how they contributed to this impasse, and how can they be overcome.

A main problem is divergent economies under the same currency, and how these economies can be made to converge with out hurting each other, so that the Euro can work as a common concurrency.

To say that the Greeks find themselves in this situation because they are "lazy" aside from

being racist, it shows a fundamental misunderstanding on the events that have led to this Greek situation, and threaten to unravel the EU.

I admite that in many subjects I am profoundly ignorant, ans as such, I refrain from forming an opinion, knowing that not only such opinion would be ignorant , but that at the same time I will make that ignorance evident to others. I am not saying this to insult you, even in other subjects where we disagree, you exhibit intelligence, and understanding of the issues.

No to in this case so far

and I am afraid you owe an apology to the Greek people for calling them "Lazy" , they are anything but that.

After WWII (and even before then) but for the purposes of this discussion, After WWII Greece got caught is a geopolitical game between the West and East not of it's own making, and was subjected to strains not present in other countries.For Greece WWII ended in 1974 with the fall of the military Junta that was installed in Greece by the west to combat the spread of communism in to the Mediterranean, It was marred with a civil war , again resulting from the political strains between the capitalist west and the communist east.political assassinations etc etc. A history too long a shorted to adequately examine in this reply. .

before then and after that, Greece was ruled by two dynastic political families, Papandreou, and Caramanlis. Their tenure was marked with pervasive corruption that western countries used to promote their agenda, enriching them selves and the politicians, and bridle the common Greeks with debt. This corrupt politicians, used a client system , to gain and maintain power, rewarding with jobs and pensions those who supported them and punishing those who did not. It was this dysfunctional system of governance that led to the current Greek situation.

http://www.spiegel.d...s-a-693973.html

The Greek government pretended to represent them,and Greeks pretended to pay tax. Would you want to pay your tax, if you knew that much of it would go in the pockets of corrupt politicians?

Case and point , Greeks are "Lazy" and economically unsuccessful with in Greece, but hard working and overly successful far beyond their representative numbers in other countries. How do you reconcile that?

So lt's get back at the subject at hand

Structural inadequacies with in the EU and can they be overcome. If you are interested ,watch the video I posted, you might not agree with it, but promises you you will find it interesting.

Post your own with opposing views, I am not beyond learning something new.

You have your idea of what this thread is about and I have mine.

I think it's about a structure that has productive, wealth creating countries frustrated at trying to carry a country which isn't. I think it's about the failure of socialism in Greece. I think it's a study in negative things that happen when the productive try to support the unproductive while the unproductive expect it as a human right. I think it's the canary in the coal mine because this type of entitlement socialism is pervasive in Europe. Europe is failing.

It is inevitable the the brilliant "economists" who dreamed up the Euro and yes, the Eurozone's free movement of the unproductive people to productive countries will fail. It is failing as we watch. The UK is shooting debt to the moon and it's buying it's own phony debt for several reasons, but that's grotesque. How long can you loan yourself money?

Germany and the UK are panicked about the prospect of even losing Greece as a sign that the Euro and Eurozone are failing because there's much more to come after Greece. It's simply not sustainable. The Euro was a massive mistake but where does even Germany go when it fails?

The proof in any debate will be that failure. It is failing.

Cheers.

This problem is not about Greece taking market share from Greece. This problem is about debt pricing and having an incomplete system in Europe. When governments borrow money, the system is meant to price that debt according to its risk. Greece and other countries were able to essentially borrow Germany's interest rate for too long because they were part of the Euro. Within the system now, there are two tiers of Euro defined debt, stable countries and unstable countries. This should not be how the Euro works. The Euro is the euro.

It is a fundamentally unstable system because there is no way to force individual countries to control their debt level, because they all borrow in the same euro. Until they move to a two tier federal and state borrowing system countries will continue to have access to funds at the wrong rate. The euro is bound to continue with these problems or break. One or other. Alan Walters was absolutely spot on in his predictions for how this would pan out without a federal tax system in Europe. Smart fellow.

[Eff1n2ret]

One great "structural inadequacy" of the EU which seems to have had little attention recently is that it is administered by a massive bureaucracy called the European Commission, which over many years has not had its accounts signed off by the auditors and has been a by-word for corruption and budgetary incontinence, the charges which have been levelled almost daily at Greece for ages.

So the Eurozone leaders have a great gang-bang of Greece while ignoring the monster in Brussels which is getting fat at everyone's expense and demands increased contributions year on year as its right. Double standards or what?

[VIPinthailand]

what will be the National language of the United States of Europe?

Euroglish?

Edited July 21, 2015 by VIPinthailand

[sirineou]

Look at autos only. Germany and Japan came out of the ashes of WWII and by hard work joined the world economy producing quality products - new wealth. New wealth means more wealth to go around and just look at the jobs Japan has created for Thailand. Mercedes and BMW have taken the world as quality cars and they have manufacturing plants in the US. Ford and Chevy have manufacturing plants in Canada and Mexico and Ford is in Thailand. That's all new wealth.

Japan flooded the US with quality cars and now manufactures the Toyotas, Hondas, Toyota pickups etc. in the US for the US market. So does Lexus. That's new wealth for both the US and Japan.

What kind of car, scooter, TV, computer, smartphone, etc. is made in Greece? Why is that?

Cheers

NS, in this thread , I am afraid you are compliantly missing the point

This thread is about the structural inadequacies of the EU that have lead to this crisis.

are there other factors that led to this impasse? Sure, but that's not what we are talking about are the structural inadequacies with in the EU, what are they, how they contributed to this impasse, and how can they be overcome.

A main problem is divergent economies under the same currency, and how these economies can be made to converge with out hurting each other, so that the Euro can work as a common concurrency.

To say that the Greeks find themselves in this situation because they are "lazy" aside from

being racist, it shows a fundamental misunderstanding on the events that have led to this Greek situation, and threaten to unravel the EU.

I admite that in many subjects I am profoundly ignorant, ans as such, I refrain from forming an opinion, knowing that not only such opinion would be ignorant , but that at the same time I will make that ignorance evident to others. I am not saying this to insult you, even in other subjects where we disagree, you exhibit intelligence, and understanding of the issues.

No to in this case so far

and I am afraid you owe an apology to the Greek people for calling them "Lazy" , they are anything but that.

After WWII (and even before then) but for the purposes of this discussion, After WWII Greece got caught is a geopolitical game between the West and East not of it's own making, and was subjected to strains not present in other countries.For Greece WWII ended in 1974 with the fall of the military Junta that was installed in Greece by the west to combat the spread of communism in to the Mediterranean, It was marred with a civil war , again resulting from the political strains between the capitalist west and the communist east.political assassinations etc etc. A history too long a shorted to adequately examine in this reply. .

before then and after that, Greece was ruled by two dynastic political families, Papandreou, and Caramanlis. Their tenure was marked with pervasive corruption that western countries used to promote their agenda, enriching them selves and the politicians, and bridle the common Greeks with debt. This corrupt politicians, used a client system , to gain and maintain power, rewarding with jobs and pensions those who supported them and punishing those who did not. It was this dysfunctional system of governance that led to the current Greek situation.

http://www.spiegel.d...s-a-693973.html

The Greek government pretended to represent them,and Greeks pretended to pay tax. Would you want to pay your tax, if you knew that much of it would go in the pockets of corrupt politicians?

Case and point , Greeks are "Lazy" and economically unsuccessful with in Greece, but hard working and overly successful far beyond their representative numbers in other countries. How do you reconcile that?

So lt's get back at the subject at hand

Structural inadequacies with in the EU and can they be overcome. If you are interested ,watch the video I posted, you might not agree with it, but promises you you will find it interesting.

Post your own with opposing views, I am not beyond learning something new.

You have your idea of what this thread is about and I have mine.

I think it's about a structure that has productive, wealth creating countries frustrated at trying to carry a country which isn't. I think it's about the failure of socialism in Greece. I think it's a study in negative things that happen when the productive try to support the unproductive while the unproductive expect it as a human right. I think it's the canary in the coal mine because this type of entitlement socialism is pervasive in Europe. Europe is failing.

It is inevitable the the brilliant "economists" who dreamed up the Euro and yes, the Eurozone's free movement of the unproductive people to productive countries will fail. It is failing as we watch. The UK is shooting debt to the moon and it's buying it's own phony debt for several reasons, but that's grotesque. How long can you loan yourself money?

Germany and the UK are panicked about the prospect of even losing Greece as a sign that the Euro and Eurozone are failing because there's much more to come after Greece. It's simply not sustainable. The Euro was a massive mistake but where does even Germany go when it fails?

The proof in any debate will be that failure. It is failing.

Cheers.

This problem is not about Greece taking market share from Greece. This problem is about debt pricing and having an incomplete system in Europe. When governments borrow money, the system is meant to price that debt according to its risk. Greece and other countries were able to essentially borrow Germany's interest rate for too long because they were part of the Euro. Within the system now, there are two tiers of Euro defined debt, stable countries and unstable countries. This should not be how the Euro works. The Euro is the euro.

It is a fundamentally unstable system because there is no way to force individual countries to control their debt level, because they all borrow in the same euro. Until they move to a two tier federal and state borrowing system countries will continue to have access to funds at the wrong rate. The euro is bound to continue with these problems or break. One or other. Alan Walters was absolutely spot on in his predictions for how this would pan out without a federal tax system in Europe. Smart fellow.

I really dont understand this reply

Different countries, with in the Euro system borrow at different rates in the open market, The rates depend on the country's credit ratting, and the country's credit rating is dependent on the risk .

So Greece has a ccc- rating, and if it was to finance it;s debt in the open market would pay a high interest rate, that's why the bail outs. other countries such as Germany have a AAA rating and is able to borrow at very low to zero interest rates.

link to countries credit rating http://www.tradingeconomics.com/france/rating

So Germany borrows at close to zero%, lends to Greece at 1.5% , a much lower rate that Greece could ever get, and makes a profit in the process.

in the first paragraph, I think you mean Greece taking market share from Germany.

if so, that's certainly a concern

if the Greek economy was to grow in sectors that are in competition with Germany.

and I use Greece and Germany only as an example, you could use any two countries with in the Euro zone.

if there is to be a winner, somewhere there has to be a loser , unless of course the whole zone economy expanse at such rate , that it allows all the countries to grow their economies with out encroaching on other country's economies.

but that's highly unlikely

Germany. one of the best performing economy in the Euro zone :

The Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in Germany expanded 1.10 percent in the first quarter of 2015 over the same quarter of the previous year. GDP Annual Growth Rate in Germany averaged 1.28 percent from 1992 until 2015, reaching an all time high of 5.20 percent in the first quarter of 2011 and a record low of -6.80 percent in the second quarter of 2009. GDP Annual Growth Rate in Germany is reported by the Federal Statistical Office."

source:http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-growth-annual

This crisis and the ensuing austerity imposed on Greece has caused it's GDP to contract by 25% , in order that Greece's economy grows to pre-crisis levels, it would need to grow by 25%,

impossible to do strictly by market expansion.

The only way Greece can do this is and not cannibalize other economies, is to do it in non competing sectors, such as tourism and shipping, two sectors that Greece excels in.

The 10% rise in Vat imposed on restaurants bringing the VAT to 23% is not conducive to tourism growth., and the increase of taxation of shipping companies, is not conducive to expanding shipping market share, in fact watch Greek shipping tonnage to decrease as companies move their fleets to foreign flags.

any increases in revenue resulting from the tax increases, will be wiped out by the loss of revenues from the contraction they will cause.

So what is better, one Tourist paying 23% or three tourists paying 13% each??

That is the context under which I made the comment about economies and growth.

[i claudius]

Look at autos only. Germany and Japan came out of the ashes of WWII and by hard work joined the world economy producing quality products - new wealth. New wealth means more wealth to go around and just look at the jobs Japan has created for Thailand. Mercedes and BMW have taken the world as quality cars and they have manufacturing plants in the US. Ford and Chevy have manufacturing plants in Canada and Mexico and Ford is in Thailand. That's all new wealth.

Japan flooded the US with quality cars and now manufactures the Toyotas, Hondas, Toyota pickups etc. in the US for the US market. So does Lexus. That's new wealth for both the US and Japan.

What kind of car, scooter, TV, computer, smartphone, etc. is made in Greece? Why is that?

Cheers

NS, in this thread , I am afraid you are compliantly missing the point

This thread is about the structural inadequacies of the EU that have lead to this crisis.

are there other factors that led to this impasse? Sure, but that's not what we are talking about are the structural inadequacies with in the EU, what are they, how they contributed to this impasse, and how can they be overcome.

A main problem is divergent economies under the same currency, and how these economies can be made to converge with out hurting each other, so that the Euro can work as a common concurrency.

To say that the Greeks find themselves in this situation because they are "lazy" aside from

being racist, it shows a fundamental misunderstanding on the events that have led to this Greek situation, and threaten to unravel the EU.

I admite that in many subjects I am profoundly ignorant, ans as such, I refrain from forming an opinion, knowing that not only such opinion would be ignorant , but that at the same time I will make that ignorance evident to others. I am not saying this to insult you, even in other subjects where we disagree, you exhibit intelligence, and understanding of the issues.

No to in this case so far

and I am afraid you owe an apology to the Greek people for calling them "Lazy" , they are anything but that.

After WWII (and even before then) but for the purposes of this discussion, After WWII Greece got caught is a geopolitical game between the West and East not of it's own making, and was subjected to strains not present in other countries.For Greece WWII ended in 1974 with the fall of the military Junta that was installed in Greece by the west to combat the spread of communism in to the Mediterranean, It was marred with a civil war , again resulting from the political strains between the capitalist west and the communist east.political assassinations etc etc. A history too long a shorted to adequately examine in this reply. .

before then and after that, Greece was ruled by two dynastic political families, Papandreou, and Caramanlis. Their tenure was marked with pervasive corruption that western countries used to promote their agenda, enriching them selves and the politicians, and bridle the common Greeks with debt. This corrupt politicians, used a client system , to gain and maintain power, rewarding with jobs and pensions those who supported them and punishing those who did not. It was this dysfunctional system of governance that led to the current Greek situation.

http://www.spiegel.d...s-a-693973.html

The Greek government pretended to represent them,and Greeks pretended to pay tax. Would you want to pay your tax, if you knew that much of it would go in the pockets of corrupt politicians?

Case and point , Greeks are "Lazy" and economically unsuccessful with in Greece, but hard working and overly successful far beyond their representative numbers in other countries. How do you reconcile that?

So lt's get back at the subject at hand

Structural inadequacies with in the EU and can they be overcome. If you are interested ,watch the video I posted, you might not agree with it, but promises you you will find it interesting.

Post your own with opposing views, I am not beyond learning something new.

You have your idea of what this thread is about and I have mine.

I think it's about a structure that has productive, wealth creating countries frustrated at trying to carry a country which isn't. I think it's about the failure of socialism in Greece. I think it's a study in negative things that happen when the productive try to support the unproductive while the unproductive expect it as a human right. I think it's the canary in the coal mine because this type of entitlement socialism is pervasive in Europe. Europe is failing.

It is inevitable the the brilliant "economists" who dreamed up the Euro and yes, the Eurozone's free movement of the unproductive people to productive countries will fail. It is failing as we watch. The UK is shooting debt to the moon and it's buying it's own phony debt for several reasons, but that's grotesque. How long can you loan yourself money?

Germany and the UK are panicked about the prospect of even losing Greece as a sign that the Euro and Eurozone are failing because there's much more to come after Greece. It's simply not sustainable. The Euro was a massive mistake but where does even Germany go when it fails?

The proof in any debate will be that failure. It is failing.

Cheers.

To call the Euro "a massive mistake" shows a misunderstanding on how things were in Europe before the Euro,

can it be that you have not spend very much time there?

Before the Euro, people driving from one country to an other, had to carry several currencies, in their wallets, to be able to eat lunch and buy gas , and had to wait for hours at border crossings.

Import/export companies made more profit, or lost more money from currency fluctuations, than from their products.

Europe is not going back to that. Not to mention all the wars.

IMO Accommodations will be made,Structural impediments will be removed

At it's inception. the political will did not exist to make the necessary political changes, not sure if it exists now,

but one thing for sure, the current crisis has has made it apparent to the Europeans that the current condition is unsustainable, and since no one wants to go back to the way things were , might make the necessary political changes more palatable.

PS: news of the death of the EU are highly exaggerate

What a shame the best thing would be to let it die in peace