Monk for 10 days? Seriously...

[simon43]

Thank-you for your helpful replies.

you wanna play monk for 14 days

No, I don't really think you understand my intentions. There is no reason to explain them further to you.

As to why I mention 7-10 days only, the reason is as I explained ==> I cannot spare more time because of my business commitments. Even if I could spare only 2 days, if my intention is good and with honest intent, then those 2 days could benefit me more than 20 days without good intent.

The period of 7-10 days is - from my experience - very much in line with the period that young Thai men spend in a temple.

Possibly, I do not need to venture afar. I can ask at my local temple to see if they would accept me for a short period, (tha might also enable me to stay a little longer, since I would not have to journey far from my business at start and finish of my stay.

I will ask further.. thanks again

[federico]

I would advise the 10 day Vipassana Meditation retreat by S. N. Goenka.

No robes, no shaved heads, about 70-80% Thai, the rest foreigners.

I have attended 3 different times, all good. Out in the countryside, they take your there by bus. They do not ask for money, but any donation you can spare at the end is appreciated.

[mulder12345]

Good luck and i hope you find exactly wat(pun intended)you are looking for.

[LawrenceN]

I did seven days in Wat Umong in Chiang Mai in 1998. During ordination, you need a sponsor who cannot be your wife or a younger woman. My mother-in-law was my sponsor, meaning she handed me my robes during the ceremony. When she died in 2009, I ordained for the day to honor her memory, karmic payback. If you're trying to keep your ordination private, you might want to tell the abbot in advance that you need a sponsor. "Sponsor" is my word for it. I forget the Thai word.

My biggest recommendation is that you commit the blessing to memory, the one you say to people who put food in your bowl. People really do respect you and appreciate the cross-cultural aspect of foreign monks who ordain in the Theravada tradition. You may see them allow other monks to pass and wait for you to hear the blessing from you. Don't fake it.

Your question was clear. Ignore the people who are trying to steer you to some meditation retreat for laymen.

One thing I found a little odd was that you want to do this in October. Once you ordain as a monk, you shouldn't leave during Buddhist Lent (Phansaa), so check the calendar carefully before you make arrangements, again making your thoughts clear to the abbot. Phansaa ends October 27 this year.

[khaowong1]

If you can speak Thai, i suggest Wat Suan Mokkh - main monastery in Chaiya, Thailand.

http://www.bia.or.th/en/index.php/2013-10-23-08-11-05/2013-10-23-08-17-39

Yes.

[ericthai]

As a matter of fact family and temple would hold a big party for you.

This is definitely what I do not want...

Yes, I'm very much aware of the 2 weeks that Thai men spend in a temple.

Lol, I recall my Thai ex-wife spending 150,000 baht some years ago on a lavish party for her toyboy when he went to stay in the temple for a couple of weeks.

I don't need any of that - I have no close family now - this is something for me to do privately.

I appreciate if you can PM me with any useful information. Thanks.

I would find a temple in an area where you would like to stay and contact them, best way to find out.

As for the party thing I was knocked over when my wifes cousin did this. They live next door to us. He shaved his head and they had a big party.

His dad is a principle at a school and his dad is also an announcer at fights so is well known. I would say about 100 people of so came to the party. Lasted all day and most of the night.

You know the typically Thai thing, big stage setup, band girls etc. I'm coming home from work about 2 weeks later and see him on jeans on the front proch. I was thinking holy shit

did he get thrown out? I go in and speak to my wife and she said yes he was only going to 14 days. I couldn't believe the big party for only 14 days I was thinking he was going to 1 year

or something like that. Just crazy, I guess any excuse for a party.

Anyway good luck to you, hope you have a good experience and learn something while there.

[bil2054]

I also enjoyed the helpful and honest responses. It is quite likely that I too will look for a short term stay at a monastery once I have moved.
I do not understand the folks who wish to discourage someone who is a seeker. If you have no desire for self improvement then fine. No need to run down somebody else's life choices.
Just my opinion, of course.

[simon43]

Phansaa ends October 27 this year.

Yes, I'm aware of the date this year. My dates are reasonably flexible, but being realistic also, I would not be able to afford enough time in the tourist high season. (Actually, my small hotel is fully-booked every night of the year, and my plan is to completely close the hotel for the period of my stay in a temple - I have to select a time period on the calendar where customers have - as yet - not booked to stay. (They usually book only a few days before their date of stay). November is possible.

It would be nice to be able to have 1 full month available, but that is not going to happen until I retire (maybe when I'm around 80 years old...)

The advice and links on this thread have been very helpful - thanks

[harrry]

Phansaa ends October 27 this year.

Yes, I'm aware of the date this year. My dates are reasonably flexible, but being realistic also, I would not be able to afford enough time in the tourist high season. (Actually, my small hotel is fully-booked every night of the year, and my plan is to completely close the hotel for the period of my stay in a temple - I have to select a time period on the calendar where customers have - as yet - not booked to stay. (They usually book only a few days before their date of stay). November is possible.

It would be nice to be able to have 1 full month available, but that is not going to happen until I retire (maybe when I'm around 80 years old...)

The advice and links on this thread have been very helpful - thanks

If you close too long at that time ago will you have any good staff left to help you in the hotel. I hope things work out.

[roath]

I did seven days in Wat Umong in Chiang Mai in 1998. During ordination, you need a sponsor who cannot be your wife or a younger woman. My mother-in-law was my sponsor, meaning she handed me my robes during the ceremony. When she died in 2009, I ordained for the day to honor her memory, karmic payback. If you're trying to keep your ordination private, you might want to tell the abbot in advance that you need a sponsor. "Sponsor" is my word for it. I forget the Thai word.

My biggest recommendation is that you commit the blessing to memory, the one you say to people who put food in your bowl. People really do respect you and appreciate the cross-cultural aspect of foreign monks who ordain in the Theravada tradition. You may see them allow other monks to pass and wait for you to hear the blessing from you. Don't fake it.

Your question was clear. Ignore the people who are trying to steer you to some meditation retreat for laymen.

One thing I found a little odd was that you want to do this in October. Once you ordain as a monk, you shouldn't leave during Buddhist Lent (Phansaa), so check the calendar carefully before you make arrangements, again making your thoughts clear to the abbot. Phansaa ends October 27 this year.

Being a monk and doing a meditation retreat are quite different things. Both have benefit but they are not equal in terms of the experience. People do seem to miss the point due to their own personal agenda and/or prejudices. Thais frankly would not have these issues and neither would they regard being a monk and doing a meditation retreat at the same time as mutually exclusive activities. In Burma, it is quite common for foreigners doing longer retreats to ordain (most usually as novices as the rules are not so strict for a novice as opposed to a full monk - 10 rules as opposed to 227).

Generally, if one ordains during Buddhist Lent, then the tradition is to remain for the entirety of the rainy season (and I understand that for this reason, many temples will not ordain during the rainy season itself). However, it is a tradition not a rule (Vinaya) and there is no actual reason why one could not ordain during Phansa otherwise.

Equally, the rule during Phansa is simply that one should reside at the same Wat each evening (although you may obtain dispensation from the Abbot - most commonly, it is to travel to visit sick or dying relatives). During the day, one is free to leave the temple.

The prohibition against travel during the rainy season was originally a practical one - because of course travel is much more difficult when there is daily rain, and of course to prevent monks from trampling through muddy rice fields and perhaps ruining crops or otherwise disturbing the farmers during the most important agricultural season).

[roath]

As a matter of fact family and temple would hold a big party for you.

This is definitely what I do not want...

Yes, I'm very much aware of the 2 weeks that Thai men spend in a temple.

Lol, I recall my Thai ex-wife spending 150,000 baht some years ago on a lavish party for her toyboy when he went to stay in the temple for a couple of weeks.

I don't need any of that - I have no close family now - this is something for me to do privately.

I appreciate if you can PM me with any useful information. Thanks.

I would find a temple in an area where you would like to stay and contact them, best way to find out.

As for the party thing I was knocked over when my wifes cousin did this. They live next door to us. He shaved his head and they had a big party.

His dad is a principle at a school and his dad is also an announcer at fights so is well known. I would say about 100 people of so came to the party. Lasted all day and most of the night.

You know the typically Thai thing, big stage setup, band girls etc. I'm coming home from work about 2 weeks later and see him on jeans on the front proch. I was thinking holy shit

did he get thrown out? I go in and speak to my wife and she said yes he was only going to 14 days. I couldn't believe the big party for only 14 days I was thinking he was going to 1 year

or something like that. Just crazy, I guess any excuse for a party.

Anyway good luck to you, hope you have a good experience and learn something while there.

The builders at my house didn't turn up one morning to finish a job. My GF called them and asked what had happened: they were all hung-over from celebrating after a family member became a monk!!! Getting wasted to celebrate someone ordaining does rather miss the whole point of the ceremony, but as you say, for many people, any excuse for a p*** up. It is a shame that they don't instead all engage in a few days meditation, which would do a lot more for harmony in the country and individual self-development but anyway. It would also keep quite a few drunk drivers off the road as a further benefit!!

:-)

[roath]

If you can speak Thai, i suggest Wat Suan Mokkh - main monastery in Chaiya, Thailand.

http://www.bia.or.th/en/index.php/2013-10-23-08-11-05/2013-10-23-08-17-39

Yes.

Wat Suan Mokh have a programme for foreigners which runs for 10 days from the 1st of every month. If the OP can speak good Thai, then obviously that would be another option. Geographically, it is of course quite close to Phuket.

It is worth mentioning that WSM teach Anapanasati (mindfulness of breathing in simple terms). This is quite different from the techniques taught on a Vipassana course. Within Vipassana, it is also worth noting that the Goenka method is quite different from the Mahasi method. Some people may attend one course and be put off meditation as the method did not suit them. Do not be put off: if you find that one particular method does not resonate with you or suit your personality, characteristics or tendencies, do not be put off: one size does not fit all, and simply try another until you find one that does suit.

[rockyysdt]

Wat Suan Mokh have a programme for foreigners which runs for 10 days from the 1st of every month. If the OP can speak good Thai, then obviously that would be another option. Geographically, it is of course quite close to Phuket.

It is worth mentioning that WSM teach Anapanasati (mindfulness of breathing in simple terms). This is quite different from the techniques taught on a Vipassana course. Within Vipassana, it is also worth noting that the Goenka method is quite different from the Mahasi method. Some people may attend one course and be put off meditation as the method did not suit them. Do not be put off: if you find that one particular method does not resonate with you or suit your personality, characteristics or tendencies, do not be put off: one size does not fit all, and simply try another until you find one that does suit.

Not wishing to digress, I was hoping you could briefly indicate the difference between Anapanasiti (Mindfulness of breathing) and the usual Vipassana teaching?

I was interested as to the reason for Simons desire to be a Monk for such a short period.

Whilst it maybe true that ones experience in robes might be markedly different in comparison to a Retreat experience, for a period of a week or two, isn't such experience of the ego and diverges from ones aim of shedding conditioning?

Isn't the main benefit of Monkhood an opportunity to devote ones life towards full time practice?

The downside being that a significant number of Sanghas are filled with travelers who not only have little knowledge of the 4 Noble Truths & Eightfold Path, but who also have little resolve towards genuine practice?

For this reason and due to the short term involved, without knowledge of Simons reasons/aims, I feel a Retreat dedicated to quality instruction and conducive environment for practice, would be more fruitful than going through induction Rituals for a life which is meant to be for life.

I can personally vouch for the Wat Suan Mokkh International Retreat.

10 days every month beginning on the first of each month.

Arrive the afternoon before the 1st of the month.

Leave in the morning of the 11th day (no early departures).

As you've highlighted teaching differences (Vipassana vs Anapanasiti & others) I was interested in their differences and how this could affect Simons experience.

[roath]

Wat Suan Mokh have a programme for foreigners which runs for 10 days from the 1st of every month. If the OP can speak good Thai, then obviously that would be another option. Geographically, it is of course quite close to Phuket.

It is worth mentioning that WSM teach Anapanasati (mindfulness of breathing in simple terms). This is quite different from the techniques taught on a Vipassana course. Within Vipassana, it is also worth noting that the Goenka method is quite different from the Mahasi method. Some people may attend one course and be put off meditation as the method did not suit them. Do not be put off: if you find that one particular method does not resonate with you or suit your personality, characteristics or tendencies, do not be put off: one size does not fit all, and simply try another until you find one that does suit.

Not wishing to digress, I was hoping you could briefly indicate the difference between Anapanasiti (Mindfulness of breathing) and the usual Vipassana teaching?

I was interested as to the reason for Simons desire to be a Monk for such a short period.

Whilst it maybe true that ones experience in robes might be markedly different in comparison to a Retreat experience, for a period of a week or two, isn't such experience of the ego and diverges from ones aim of shedding conditioning?

Isn't the main benefit of Monkhood an opportunity to devote ones life towards full time practice?

The downside being that a significant number of Sanghas are filled with travelers who not only have little knowledge of the 4 Noble Truths & Eightfold Path, but who also have little resolve towards genuine practice?

For this reason and due to the short term involved, without knowledge of Simons reasons/aims, I feel a Retreat dedicated to quality instruction and conducive environment for practice, would be more fruitful than going through induction Rituals for a life which is meant to be for life.

I can personally vouch for the Wat Suan Mokkh International Retreat.

10 days every month beginning on the first of each month.

Arrive the afternoon before the 1st of the month.

Leave in the morning of the 11th day (no early departures).

As you've highlighted teaching differences (Vipassana vs Anapanasiti & others) I was interested in their differences and how this could affect Simons experience.

I set out in an earlier post the benefits of being a monk, even for a short period of time. Of course, for Thais, they don't even have to have this discussion as they don't have the same issues with Buddhism which foreigners do. The fact that there are bad monks (which there are) does not devalue the teachings of the Buddha or the value of ordination generally. Whilst you may not personally wish to ordain only for a short period, there is absolutely no requirement whatsoever in Buddhism for ordination to be for life.

However, please don't misunderstand what I am saying. I completely accept and acknowledge the significant advantages for the serious practitioner in becoming a monk for the remainder of one's life. I would also say that having been a monk myself it has given me an insight into that way of life which I would not (and could not) have experienced had I not ordained (even though I also only ordained for a short period of time).

As for meditation, there are two main paths: Samatha meditation (as taught at WSM for example) and usually referred to in English as concentration or tranquillity meditation, and Vipassana meditation, which is usually referred to in English as Insight Meditation (and as taught by pretty much every other monastery in Thailand other than WSM and a very small handful of others).

Samatha is fairly straightforward in that one pretty much just focuses on the breath going in and out. The real differences in Samatha practice tend to come with the more advanced techniques.

Vipassana techniques are far more varied and gets into a quite involved discussion way beyond the scope of a Thaivisa.com thread. Vipassana schools will also teach Samatha techniques as a precursor to the Vipassana practice, but only as an introduction (e.g. commonly only a few minutes of Samatha practice/technique before progressing to Vipassana practice/techniques)

The following give some overviews of Samatha and Vipassana practice and their purpose etc.

http://www.tbsa.org/articles/questionsandanswers.htm

http://www.buddhanet.net/vmed_1.htm

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books9/Ajahn_Brahm_Samatha_Meditation.htm

[rockyysdt]

It is worth mentioning that WSM teach Anapanasati (mindfulness of breathing in simple terms). This is quite different from the techniques taught on a Vipassana course. Within Vipassana, it is also worth noting that the Goenka method is quite different from the Mahasi method. Some people may attend one course and be put off meditation as the method did not suit them. Do not be put off: if you find that one particular method does not resonate with you or suit your personality, characteristics or tendencies, do not be put off: one size does not fit all, and simply try another until you find one that does suit.

As for meditation, there are two main paths: Samatha meditation (as taught at WSM for example) and usually referred to in English as concentration or tranquillity meditation, and Vipassana meditation, which is usually referred to in English as Insight Meditation (and as taught by pretty much every other monastery in Thailand other than WSM and a very small handful of others).

Samatha is fairly straightforward in that one pretty much just focuses on the breath going in and out. The real differences in Samatha practice tend to come with the more advanced techniques.

Vipassana techniques are far more varied and gets into a quite involved discussion way beyond the scope of a Thaivisa.com thread. Vipassana schools will also teach Samatha techniques as a precursor to the Vipassana practice, but only as an introduction (e.g. commonly only a few minutes of Samatha practice/technique before progressing to Vipassana practice/techniques)

My understanding is that Anapanasiti includes Insight Meditation (16 steps).

The initial focus at the Retreat is to practice towards mastering the first 4 steps, as retreatants only have 10 days.

The first 4 steps just happen to concentrate on Sitting Concentration.

Anapanasiti has 16 steps, which include Insight.

Bikkhu Buddhadasa indicates in his book "Anapanasit", that periods of deep Samatha give one the strength and Concentration levels to practice insight meditation (body, mind, feelings, impermanence and so forth).

Once Concentration levels are depleted subsequent periods of Samadhi rebuild ones concentration levels to continue insight.

At Wat Suan Mokkh they also teach Mindfulness.

Unless one is dead, breath continues.

Observing breath as ones anchor throughout the day, whether sitting or other, from the time one awakes until sleep occurs, is encouraged.

Mindfulness of breath (anchor?).

Mindfulness of body.

Mindfulness of though.

Mindfulness of feelings.

Mindfulness of the world around.

Walking Mindfulness is a feature, and the food reflection focuses on Mindfulness whilst eating.

A benefit of walking meditation or mindful walking (preferably bare foot), allows one to avoid treading on millipedes, centipedes, scorpions and other living creatures.

In short, Anapanasiti encompasses Mindfulness & Insight.

This is why I was interested in learning your understanding of why Vipassana differs to Anapanasiti?

[rockyysdt]

I set out in an earlier post the benefits of being a monk, even for a short period of time. Of course, for Thais, they don't even have to have this discussion as they don't have the same issues with Buddhism which foreigners do. The fact that there are bad monks (which there are) does not devalue the teachings of the Buddha or the value of ordination generally. Whilst you may not personally wish to ordain only for a short period, there is absolutely no requirement whatsoever in Buddhism for ordination to be for life.

However, please don't misunderstand what I am saying. I completely accept and acknowledge the significant advantages for the serious practitioner in becoming a monk for the remainder of one's life. I would also say that having been a monk myself it has given me an insight into that way of life which I would not (and could not) have experienced had I not ordained (even though I also only ordained for a short period of time).

This is the part which I still don't understand.

You gave a couple of benefits of ordination.

The first was that ordination as a monk provides great merit (boon บุญ in Thai. Full (bhikkhu) ordination as opposed to novice (samanera) ordination provides the greatest merit. Thus, even being a monk for a day provides you with great merit).

Isn't this part of the good luck, merit seeking, superstition side of Buddhism which has no relevance in terms of what the Buddha was teaching?

Isn't this merit restricted to the belief of individuals involved (those who observe & those who ordinate)?

Isn't the true benefit of the Eightfold Path the fruit of practice and not ceremonial regalia, which is all that there would be time for, given the short period Simon can make available?

The second was that becoming a monk for any period of time is "a wonderful experience for someone who is a practicing Buddhist as it provides you with direct experience of the life as a monk. When I was ordained (also for a short period - visa issues in my case being the limitation at the time), I felt a connection to the Buddha himself through the lineage of monks being ordained from the Buddha all the way through to me, which is something that you can only appreciate through direct experience".

Isn't this wonderful experience associated with thoughts and feelings which the Buddha taught needed to be overcome through insight?

Simon would barely learn the routine involved of living with a group of Monks, not to mention coming to terms with the associated customs, rules and environment.

Perhaps this would give Simon a chance to know whether Monkhood is for him, but even this varies depending on the Sangha he associates with.

Another poster was concerned whether he could have coffee, and that this would be a deal breaker.

I'm feeling (bad word-attachment) that if I gained insight (perhaps something that only comes with dedicated practice over time), then any thoughts associated with the environment I'm thrust in, would be just be another attachment I'd need to shed.

Isn't it much better to focus on what the Buddha taught, a practice which can be followed until the revelation of insights takes hold and creates a natural impetus to further practice?

Such insight could give a non ego based impetus to go to the next step (ordination), which would yield the resource (time) in which to devote oneself to practice.

Perhaps there is another element of your experience.

[roath]

I set out in an earlier post the benefits of being a monk, even for a short period of time. Of course, for Thais, they don't even have to have this discussion as they don't have the same issues with Buddhism which foreigners do. The fact that there are bad monks (which there are) does not devalue the teachings of the Buddha or the value of ordination generally. Whilst you may not personally wish to ordain only for a short period, there is absolutely no requirement whatsoever in Buddhism for ordination to be for life.

However, please don't misunderstand what I am saying. I completely accept and acknowledge the significant advantages for the serious practitioner in becoming a monk for the remainder of one's life. I would also say that having been a monk myself it has given me an insight into that way of life which I would not (and could not) have experienced had I not ordained (even though I also only ordained for a short period of time).

This is the part which I still don't understand.

You gave a couple of benefits of ordination.

The first was that ordination as a monk provides great merit (boon บุญ in Thai. Full (bhikkhu) ordination as opposed to novice (samanera) ordination provides the greatest merit. Thus, even being a monk for a day provides you with great merit).

Isn't this part of the good luck, merit seeking, superstition side of Buddhism which has no relevance in terms of what the Buddha was teaching?

Isn't this merit restricted to the belief of individuals involved (those who observe & those who ordinate)?

Isn't the true benefit of the Eightfold Path the fruit of practice and not ceremonial regalia, which is all that there would be time for, given the short period Simon can make available?

The second was that becoming a monk for any period of time is "a wonderful experience for someone who is a practicing Buddhist as it provides you with direct experience of the life as a monk. When I was ordained (also for a short period - visa issues in my case being the limitation at the time), I felt a connection to the Buddha himself through the lineage of monks being ordained from the Buddha all the way through to me, which is something that you can only appreciate through direct experience".

Isn't this wonderful experience associated with thoughts and feelings which the Buddha taught needed to be overcome through insight?

Simon would barely learn the routine involved of living with a group of Monks, not to mention coming to terms with the associated customs, rules and environment.

Perhaps this would give Simon a chance to know whether Monkhood is for him, but even this varies depending on the Sangha he associates with.

Another poster was concerned whether he could have coffee, and that this would be a deal breaker.

I'm feeling (bad word-attachment) that if I has personal insight experience, perhaps something that only comes with dedicated time, then the thuoghts associated with environment I'd be thrust in, would be just be another attachment I'd need to shed.

Isn't it much better to focus on what the Buddha taught, a practice which can be followed until the revelation of insights takes hold and creates a natural impetus to further practice?

Such insight could give a non ego based impetus to go to the next step (ordination), which would yield the resource (time) in which to devote oneself to practice.

Perhaps there is another element of your experience.

Respectfully, if you are saying that making merit is simply superstition, then I do think that this is a misunderstanding of Buddhism and particularly the path leading to Nibbana/Nirvana (complete enlightenment). The fact that many people (not just Thais) confuse "making merit" with "making good luck" doesn't devalue "merit", but simply establishes that people are ignorant of the teachings of the Buddha (as indeed one could say that most Christians are ignorant of the teachings of Christ, and so on and so forth with most religions).

As a meditator, one seeks to accumulate sufficient "paramis" (in very simple terms: merit) in order to progress in one's rebirth. Of course, many (almost exclusively Westerners) Buddhists now reject or question rebirth and other phenomenon as supernatural mumbo-jumbo. A well known Western teacher, Stephen Batchelor wrote a book called "Buddhism without Beliefs", which is as it sounds. Personally, I find it difficult for someone to call themselves a "Buddhist" whilst rejecting huge chunks of the Buddha's teachings. Basically, this is a "pick and mix" approach, and is the difference between someone who was fully realised (i.e. the Buddha, which means Awakened one) or someone who just had some useful meditation and stress reduction tips (which is pretty much what his teachings have been diluted for Westerners to accept). For one who is committed to the Buddhist path, rebirth is an important factor and paramis (merit) is important not only for one's rebirth but also progression in meditation. To reject paramis as "superstition" is therefore akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

You are conflating several different concepts and then confusing them by talking about the Eightfold path, the fruit of practice and "ceremonial regalia" (although I really don't know what you refer to by the latter frankly as the only ceremonial regalia I received was my robes and my bowl and that was it) being almost mutually exclusive or contradictory. This if I may say so is an incredibly linear and narrow approach to Buddhism and the path one may take as a Buddhist. Please don't confuse what people call "Buddhism" with what is actually Buddhism. This is why there is an issue as people then go on about bad monks and therefore why bother being a monk, and indeed why bother being a Buddhist. Again, baby and bathwater. If this is your path, then you follow your path and let others follow theirs providing that their path does not conflict with yours. After all, Theravadan Buddhist and Mayayanan and Vajrayanan Buddhist all have differeing beliefs. Which could we say is right? Which elements are the Buddha's teachings and which are imagined, invented, exaggerated and so on and so forth. We cannot do so, but what we can do is follow the teachings and apply them and see what effect and impact they have.

If one is given a scientific formula as a layperson, one cannot honestly comment or question it as really one has no idea as to the truth of what is being said. If we study and practice that discipline, then at some point, we have understanding ourselves as the truth (or otherwise) of the statement being made. The problem with society today is that with Google, we are all instant experts. A person attends two meditation retreats, and becomes an expert on meditation for the person who has done one (or none). This is the way of the world, but we should try to resist the temptation (not easy, as of course, all of our egos are so developed!!!).

Again, you talk about Simon not having time to really integrate into the monk's life. As I have mentioned in several posts now, this is with respect completely missing the point of ordaining for a short period of time, which is not necessarily about being an internship for a lifetime as a monk, but for personal reasons. One could equally say that why you waste time attending a 10 day meditation retreat as really, one cannot get very far in 10 days, so why bother at all? Of course, so many people say what a profound experience even such a short time (or shorter) has had on them, and inspired them to pursue meditation further and equally being a monk even for a short time has value in terms of one's experience and understanding. It is not the same (nor is it intended to be the same) as living the life of a monk for an extended period of time. That does not devalue the former though.

I also mentioned that as a long-term resident in Thailand, there is value culturally in having ordained. Another very small tick in the box for acceptance as not being simply another culturally ignorant farang which they often see us as being (I live in Chiang Mai, and almost weekly, there is some upset over tourists, or even short-term residents who wander round temples in bikini tops and hotpants etc - I am not a prude by the way, but what is OK for the beach isn't OK for the temples just as a matter of common sense). It isn't a valid reason in itself just to tick a box of course, but I am just mentioning it as one of a multitude of reasons why I believe that it is a valuable thing to ordain even for a short period of time.

Ultimately, there is the issue which has been alluded to by a number of posters which is that if the OP/Simon wishes to ordain for even a short period of time, that is decision which is personal to him, why should others be so negative about it (and to be honest, it would appear that not a single person who has commented against short-term ordination has actually ordained). If what he suggests does not suit you, and you would rather practice outside of the robes (as I currently do) then that is fine and an individual choice. I have no problem if you do not wish to ordain so why is there a problem the other way around. This is not an either/or situation. You can ordain and not follow the Buddhist precepts and teachings (e.g. the bad monks who get wasted, visit hookers, gamble etc) or you can be a layperson and follow very sincerely. It is not exclusive or inclusive either way. Follow your own path.

Regards

[namarupa]

Wat Suan Mokkh in Chaiya, Surat Thani, offers 10-day retreats for foreigners (and novices to Buddhism/Meditation) on the first 10 days of every month. Instruction is in English. Arrive the day before the first of the month. You'll find it crowded -maybe 100 people at first, but by the end the number goes down to 40 or so.

[rockyysdt]

Respectfully, if you are saying that making merit is simply superstition, then I do think that this is a misunderstanding of Buddhism and particularly the path leading to Nibbana/Nirvana (complete enlightenment). The fact that many people (not just Thais) confuse "making merit" with "making good luck" doesn't devalue "merit", but simply establishes that people are ignorant of the teachings of the Buddha (as indeed one could say that most Christians are ignorant of the teachings of Christ, and so on and so forth with most religions).

As a meditator, one seeks to accumulate sufficient "paramis" (in very simple terms: merit) in order to progress in one's rebirth. Of course, many (almost exclusively Westerners) Buddhists now reject or question rebirth and other phenomenon as supernatural mumbo-jumbo. A well known Western teacher, Stephen Batchelor wrote a book called "Buddhism without Beliefs", which is as it sounds. Personally, I find it difficult for someone to call themselves a "Buddhist" whilst rejecting huge chunks of the Buddha's teachings. Basically, this is a "pick and mix" approach, and is the difference between someone who was fully realised (i.e. the Buddha, which means Awakened one) or someone who just had some useful meditation and stress reduction tips (which is pretty much what his teachings have been diluted for Westerners to accept). For one who is committed to the Buddhist path, rebirth is an important factor and paramis (merit) is important not only for one's rebirth but also progression in meditation. To reject paramis as "superstition" is therefore akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

You are conflating several different concepts and then confusing them by talking about the Eightfold path, the fruit of practice and "ceremonial regalia" (although I really don't know what you refer to by the latter frankly as the only ceremonial regalia I received was my robes and my bowl and that was it) being almost mutually exclusive or contradictory. This if I may say so is an incredibly linear and narrow approach to Buddhism and the path one may take as a Buddhist. Please don't confuse what people call "Buddhism" with what is actually Buddhism. This is why there is an issue as people then go on about bad monks and therefore why bother being a monk, and indeed why bother being a Buddhist. Again, baby and bathwater. If this is your path, then you follow your path and let others follow theirs providing that their path does not conflict with yours. After all, Theravadan Buddhist and Mayayanan and Vajrayanan Buddhist all have differeing beliefs. Which could we say is right? Which elements are the Buddha's teachings and which are imagined, invented, exaggerated and so on and so forth. We cannot do so, but what we can do is follow the teachings and apply them and see what effect and impact they have.

If one is given a scientific formula as a layperson, one cannot honestly comment or question it as really one has no idea as to the truth of what is being said. If we study and practice that discipline, then at some point, we have understanding ourselves as the truth (or otherwise) of the statement being made. The problem with society today is that with Google, we are all instant experts. A person attends two meditation retreats, and becomes an expert on meditation for the person who has done one (or none). This is the way of the world, but we should try to resist the temptation (not easy, as of course, all of our egos are so developed!!!).

Again, you talk about Simon not having time to really integrate into the monk's life. As I have mentioned in several posts now, this is with respect completely missing the point of ordaining for a short period of time, which is not necessarily about being an internship for a lifetime as a monk, but for personal reasons. One could equally say that why you waste time attending a 10 day meditation retreat as really, one cannot get very far in 10 days, so why bother at all? Of course, so many people say what a profound experience even such a short time (or shorter) has had on them, and inspired them to pursue meditation further and equally being a monk even for a short time has value in terms of one's experience and understanding. It is not the same (nor is it intended to be the same) as living the life of a monk for an extended period of time. That does not devalue the former though.

I also mentioned that as a long-term resident in Thailand, there is value culturally in having ordained. Another very small tick in the box for acceptance as not being simply another culturally ignorant farang which they often see us as being (I live in Chiang Mai, and almost weekly, there is some upset over tourists, or even short-term residents who wander round temples in bikini tops and hotpants etc - I am not a prude by the way, but what is OK for the beach isn't OK for the temples just as a matter of common sense). It isn't a valid reason in itself just to tick a box of course, but I am just mentioning it as one of a multitude of reasons why I believe that it is a valuable thing to ordain even for a short period of time.

Ultimately, there is the issue which has been alluded to by a number of posters which is that if the OP/Simon wishes to ordain for even a short period of time, that is decision which is personal to him, why should others be so negative about it (and to be honest, it would appear that not a single person who has commented against short-term ordination has actually ordained). If what he suggests does not suit you, and you would rather practice outside of the robes (as I currently do) then that is fine and an individual choice. I have no problem if you do not wish to ordain so why is there a problem the other way around. This is not an either/or situation. You can ordain and not follow the Buddhist precepts and teachings (e.g. the bad monks who get wasted, visit hookers, gamble etc) or you can be a layperson and follow very sincerely. It is not exclusive or inclusive either way. Follow your own path.

Regards

Please understand there is no intention of being adversarial, merely fleshing out of understanding, and an attempt to comprehend your position.

Please do not equate me as an ignorant Farang with an inflated level of knowledge accumulated from attending couple of Retreats.

I ask you to focus on the specific content of my words rather than my personal background.

I have never objected to Simons need to ordain for 10 days.

I simply wish to understand it in terms of the Buddhas teachings.

In your previous reply you summarize reasons for ordaining for a short period:

• Cultural acceptance of Farang by Thai community.
• Exercising a common right to choose.
• Personal reasons.
• The fact that there are no objections posted by anyone who has experienced ordination.
• Gain merit.

You then intimate that I share Stephen Batchelors views, that I reject Re Birth, that I reject huge chucks of Buddhist teaching, and other phenomena, that I advocate stress reduction tips. ????

I have no doubt that ordained Monks are in a position to gain Paramis but I don't think this comes simply by donning a robe and carrying a bowl.

Paramis is very much about intention and about practice.

The Pali Canon identifies Giving, Virtue, & Mental Development as the ways Paramis is gained:

• Giving (Dana): The practice of cultivating generosity. Unattached and unconditional generosity, giving and letting go. The opposite of greedy acquisition of wealth, possessions.
• Virtue (Sila): Commitment to all that is wholesome, to harmony and self-restraint with the principal motivation being freedom from causing harm. Virtue, right conduct, morality, moral discipline and precept.
• Mental Development (Bhavana): The development and cultivation of Heart/Mind "citta-bhavana".

I'm right behind Paramis or Merit.

If you appreciate the practice associated with gaining Paramis you will conclude that this does not occur overnight.

It is the accumulation of dedicated practice over considerable periods of time.

I simply am puzzled by the benefit of a short time Ordination (10 days).

Paramis is not accumulated simply by wearing a robe & carrying an alms bowl.

How much Sila, Dana, & Bhavana, can be developed in 10 days?

Any merit gained by a Bikkhu, is very much aligned by ones motivations and ones actions.

NB: Reference to regalia can be summarized this way: " One who has potential vs One who has potential and develops this". If there is no intention to allocate resource (short time) then the robes become regalia (decorations).

What purpose is there in renunciation, adoption of a simple life style, wearing robe & bowl, keeping 227 precepts, and then proceed to practice for a negligible period and then quit?

[Brucenkhamen]

What purpose is there in renunciation, adoption of a simple life style, wearing robe & bowl, keeping 227 precepts, and then proceed to practice for a negligible period and then quit?

Good post. Some excellent points.

[simon43]

If you close too long at that time ago will you have any good staff left to help you in the hotel.

I don't lay my staff off I keep paying them in my absence. The hotel may be closed but the rooms and garden will still need to be looked after/checked every day whilst I'm not at the hotel

[simon43]

...would be more fruitful than going through induction Rituals for a life which is meant to be for life.

Ah, you misunderstand my intentions. I wish to follow the same path that many Thai men follow when they ordain for a few weeks - typically to make merit, to reflect, and to give thanks to their parents.

So my purpose is not to ordain 'for life', and not to attend a retreat/meditation centre. It is intended to be a short period of reflection, making merit and being 'humble', but I am sure many posters might not understand what I mean by that last bit.. - I'm not even going to try to explain