Denied Visa to UK

[arjunadawn]

Hello. I need some advice before I proceed. My wife and I both hold US passports. She is a Thai citizen as well. She is accepted to University in UK. She applied for UK Tier 4 Student Visa with my separate application as dependent. Today she was approved and I was rejected. Background.

We met 5 years ago at college in the US. We have been together ever since. She returned to BKK from US in Aug 13. I came in Dec 13. After x days I then converted my visa to a retirement extension. After one year I did so again. It is valid into 2016.

In Feb of this year we married in Thai Traditional Wedding. We had to wait to honor parents. (In Nov of 14 we had a dress rehearsal photo day playing traditional dress-up and wedding pics, etc. Seems we have been married repeatedly). I continued to impress upon her that the legal marriage was the most important, not the traditional. In fact, because of benefits I receive from a previous employer the paperwork marriage would enable her to collect benefits if I die. She would also be eligible to apply to this US previous employer for reimbursement for her schooling; and free healthcare for her. As our plans changed and we were going abroad it was vital that we finally put it on paper.

She is an MD. In the spring she was accepted to another medical fellowship in UK. We began the process of wrapping up things, new passports, finally getting her US passport from embassy, and we finally got around to marrying on paper. The legal marriage was actually immediately before the visa application. It never occurred to me that they would think an American would come to Thailand, marry a Thai woman, and lie about marriage to sneak into UK under false pretenses. However, this is exactly what happened. I can actually understand from a very objective point of view why this appears suspicious and even concede I understand the denial. But in context, it seems a ridiculous denial.The standard for dependent on this visa is pretty much a married spouse or someone is is effectively holding themselves out as common law married or its equivalent. Clearly we are married by any standard they use.

They denied me stating my marriage is basically suspicious but curiously, with that same marriage doc submitted by her also, approved my wife. I realize her sponsor is the school in UK and my sponsor is the marriage to her, but if its a sham marriage how absurd to accuse me of breaking a law and allow her, a law breaker (by their reasoning), in. I cannot appeal because its states merely submitting documents not considered earlier is not grounds for appeal. I must reapply but need to ensure it is airtight because we are running out of time.

So, I now realize I cannot appeal but must reapply. The question is:

How do i convince that my marriage is not only legal but that we have been together for 5 years?

What kind of docs do I submit?

Someone mentioned email threads; really? Pictures, okay. Statements?

Does any have experience with this?

Lastly, I otherwise assumed Plan B would be to get visa on arrival as an American and if I cannot get two 6 months in one year at least spend 6 months in UK setting her up. But now I realize I am a visa denial. I would even have a hard time arriving with her and we have our plane tickets for some time now. It is quite a mess.

[watcharacters]

Contact Michael Dixon as he is an expert on getting a UK wife visa.

Call him ...

[Typingdog]

Prove by pictures of your lovey dovey times

Good luck

[Suradit69]

Lastly, I otherwise assumed Plan B would be to get visa on arrival as an American and if I cannot get two 6 months in one year at least spend 6 months in UK setting her up. But now I realize I am a visa denial. I would even have a hard time arriving with her and we have our plane tickets for some time now. It is quite a mess.

Possibly if you got a 6 month tourist visa and established a common residence in UK with her that might be sufficient evidence that you're in a "genuine and subsisting relationship" and some immigration lawyer there could get you what you need to remain for the balance of her fellowship.

If you're in Thailand on a retirement extension and expect to (or may have to) return before it expires, don't forget to get yourself a re-entry permit or you'll be back at square one with Thai immigrations when you return here.

[prakhonchai nick]

Supply as much dated evidence of your relationship/traditional wedding to your wife. Otherwise I have to agree with the visa officer, it does look like a marriage of convenience, just a day or 2 before applying for a UK visa.

[Estrada]

Contact Michael Dixon as he is an expert on getting a UK wife visa.

Call him ...

You did not read what he said. His wife got her Visa so Michael cannot help her get a visa that she already has.

[Estrada]

You must ask for a review and supply plenty of supporting evidence that you are in a genuine relationship and have been for some time. Otherwise go to the UK on a tourist visa and live with your wife to demonstrate that you live together.

[tgeezer]

It seems to me that the embassy expects you to apply for an Adminisrative Review during which process you should be able to offer documentary evidence of a genuine and subsisting relationship, that is to say that your relationship extends beyond the brief period since formalising your marriage.

[arjunadawn]

Yes, it does appear that based on dates and documents it looks suspicious, I agree. Within one day we already printed out years of lovely dovey emails and pics and docs and homes and bills and insurance, etc. I actually think the alternative to review, applying again, is better. In fact, something on the document states if I only ask a review to supply new info that I should just re apply.

Thanks folks.

Edited August 9, 2015 by arjunadawn

[Daniel Boon]

Contact Michael Dixon as he is an expert on getting a UK wife visa.

Call him ...

she has a visa, he can't get one...

[natway09]

You must admit one day later, does look a bit suss.

All said above, apply for review, but ensure supporting docs, photos etc to show that it is indeed a long term relationship

you have been in & methinks it will be OK.

Good Luck

Remember, It not only has to be alright, it has to look alright

[ronaldo0]

I have a UK passport and my Thai wife has been denied twice for a visa for a holiday!!

First time i owned a 4 bedroom house with no mortgage or outstanding money on it, had over 100,000 gbp in my bank account in UK . Just bought a house in Thailand 2 years before and had over 15 million in Thai bank here.

First refusal was because they said she could not provide 6 months bank statements , she provided them with 3 months as it would take 10 days for BKK bank to get the 6 months sent from BKK and we had already booked the day to hand in the application. I had stated that i was funding the whole trip though!!

Second application was 2 years ago ,we handed in everything as before plus more. I stated again i was paying for the trip, had sold my house in Uk but gave details off all the hotels , flights etc we were planning and costs.( 500,000 bht.) My wife had over 1.2 million bht in her bank for over a year, a 1.5 million bht car in her name that was paid for and one of my houses in her name valued at 9 million bht.

Denied on several counts!!

They said they did not believe our relationship was genuine although we provided pics , marriage certificate etc . Had been married over 7 years!!

Denied as they said she did not seem to have enough money for a return flight?? It costs over 1.2 million bht for a flight??

Denied as they said they did not think she would return!! So she was going to just abandon the car etc in her name and leave it all in Thailand !!

Denied as they said there was no evidence of my Thai visa. I printed them out myself and she had the copies of it plus my actual passport !!

Plus had letters from my mother saying if for some reason we could not afford it then her and her husband would pay for it if we ran out of money and a letter from a friend who is a retired detective chief inspector in the police who confirmed he knew us and was at our wedding!

I think the people who make the decisions on the visas just pick up a certain amount and approve them and the rest they return as denied without even looking at them!!

If she was some immigrant looking for asylum then she would have no problem getting in , get a house and loads of cash !!

[K J C]

Hi, my wife and I had similar problems getting a visa some years ago - we met through mutual friends of ours... My wife's friend is married to a friend of mine here in the UK. Anyway long story short, we applied for a spouse visa which was denied due to the fact they thought it was a marriage of convenience... They said it looked like my wife wanted to get to the UK so she could work at our friends computer based company (my wife's work in Thailand revolved around computers).

Anyway after getting more money to reapply we went for it again - this time with email correspondence, pictures of us together (at home and out and about) and also phone statements showing calls that we'd made to each other. We showed about 6 months of our history, and low and behold it was enough to get a 2 year spouse visa... This was about 8 years ago, there's bound to have been changes to the system in that time - But it worked for us.

Good luck.

[sometimewoodworker]

Yes, it does appear that based on dates and documents it looks suspicious, I agree. Within one day we already printed out years of lovely dovey emails and pics and docs and homes and bills and insurance, etc. I actually think the alternative to review, applying again, is better. In fact, something on the document states if I only ask a review to supply new info that I should just re apply.

Thanks folks.

I would definitely apply for a review and submit all your bills pictures etc. make sure that you include the pictures of the Thai marriage ceremony and any bills related to that. It costs you nothing and you will be proving that the ampur ceremony was just making a de facto relationship de jure.

And you are not really supplying new info you are supplementing existing info

Edited August 9, 2015 by sometimewoodworker

[arjunadawn]

I have a UK passport and my Thai wife has been denied twice for a visa for a holiday!!

First time i owned a 4 bedroom house with no mortgage or outstanding money on it, had over 100,000 gbp in my bank account in UK . Just bought a house in Thailand 2 years before and had over 15 million in Thai bank here.

First refusal was because they said she could not provide 6 months bank statements , she provided them with 3 months as it would take 10 days for BKK bank to get the 6 months sent from BKK and we had already booked the day to hand in the application. I had stated that i was funding the whole trip though!!

Second application was 2 years ago ,we handed in everything as before plus more. I stated again i was paying for the trip, had sold my house in Uk but gave details off all the hotels , flights etc we were planning and costs.( 500,000 bht.) My wife had over 1.2 million bht in her bank for over a year, a 1.5 million bht car in her name that was paid for and one of my houses in her name valued at 9 million bht.

Denied on several counts!!

They said they did not believe our relationship was genuine although we provided pics , marriage certificate etc . Had been married over 7 years!!

Denied as they said she did not seem to have enough money for a return flight?? It costs over 1.2 million bht for a flight??

Denied as they said they did not think she would return!! So she was going to just abandon the car etc in her name and leave it all in Thailand !!

Denied as they said there was no evidence of my Thai visa. I printed them out myself and she had the copies of it plus my actual passport !!

Plus had letters from my mother saying if for some reason we could not afford it then her and her husband would pay for it if we ran out of money and a letter from a friend who is a retired detective chief inspector in the police who confirmed he knew us and was at our wedding!

I think the people who make the decisions on the visas just pick up a certain amount and approve them and the rest they return as denied without even looking at them!!

If she was some immigrant looking for asylum then she would have no problem getting in , get a house and loads of cash !!

Wow. This speaks, tongue in cheek, to what another basically said, its easier to come in with the hoards. At least then I would have free hotel and other goodies. It seems like senseless penalty when there really appears to be no actual enforcement from the ones who will remain. The reviewer had all my bank statements and proof of monthly income, etc. The idea an American who retires to Thailand with money will marry a Thai doctor to sneak into the UK- when he could otherwise just fly in- just seems absurd. They denied me for submitting a "fake marriage" but approved her for sponsoring it. In any event, you folks are correct: besides the wedding books and videos we already have today I printed 300 photos and emails and will collected docs, insurance, etc. I decided to even include the emails from years ago when we are a bit spicy in our exchanges. Only someone in a relationship would refer to ______as the stepdaughters and wicked stepmother (dont ask) :-) Let them read all about that!

[technologybytes]

You made a simple mistake, you provided no evidence that your relationship was more then 2.5 weeks old... what did you expect.

Ask for a review and provide evidence of something more substantial.

[snowbak]

if you have a US passport you can go to the UK for 90 days without any type of visa. Stop in the US and send the request from there or go to the embassy in Washington DC and do a face to face.

[elviajero]

Getting married just before the application is the issue. I think anyone reviewing your application would have refused it on that basis. It looks like a marriage of convenience. If you can prove you've been together for 5 years then you will likely get the decision overturned.

[arjunadawn]

Getting married just before the application is the issue. I think anyone reviewing your application would have refused it on that basis. It looks like a marriage of convenience. If you can prove you've been together for 5 years then you will likely get the decision overturned.

Its actually quite a wake up call. I am not yet sure what I learned though. I write often about illegal immigration, but it actually never occurred to me that there was a fraud market for Americans trying to get into the UK by fake marriages to Thai women who themselves applied via student visa. I just never saw it coming. Seems much easier as an American to fly to UK on tourist visa and remain. In this manner I still think there is a high degree of dumb-assness about the decision.

My wife had wanted me to write a statement certifying the marriage was genuine, etc. I refused to do so because I argued only a liar would presume others would think he is lying. I was way out of my knowledge zone with this one. All the comments here support what the wife said we must do. I will submit in a day or two. Again, thanks.

[CharlieB]

Hi Arjunadawn, The UK has a free national health system, which could be seen as very attractive to an American with a long term, serious health issue. Your wife would not have been refused as she has a legitimate reason and she would also easily get a work visa in the UK as a doctor. You on the other hand had provide no proof of your long term relationship and had married immediately prior to the application.

Provide joint utility bills from your time together, any joint tenancy agreements, any online travel/hotel bookings you may have in your email, any airline boarding pass stubs with the same travel date/times on them, a number of pictures of yourselves together throughout the relationship, especially any in front of recognisable landmarks i.e. State of Liberty, and any old joint bank account statements. Basically, overload them with proof that the two of you have been an item for the length of time that you have.

Good luck with the review.

[elviajero]

Getting married just before the application is the issue. I think anyone reviewing your application would have refused it on that basis. It looks like a marriage of convenience. If you can prove you've been together for 5 years then you will likely get the decision overturned.

Its actually quite a wake up call. I am not yet sure what I learned though. I write often about illegal immigration, but it actually never occurred to me that there was a fraud market for Americans trying to get into the UK by fake marriages to Thai women who themselves applied via student visa. I just never saw it coming. Seems much easier as an American to fly to UK on tourist visa and remain. In this manner I still think there is a high degree of dumb-assness about the decision.

My wife had wanted me to write a statement certifying the marriage was genuine, etc. I refused to do so because I argued only a liar would presume others would think he is lying. I was way out of my knowledge zone with this one. All the comments here support what the wife said we must do. I will submit in a day or two. Again, thanks.

Yeah I know it sucks but the UK has a massive immigration problem so its no real surprise. I'm not sure a statement would help but as Charlie B says you need to give everything you can think of that links you together going back as far as you can. If you have old immigration stamps in each of your passports that show entry somewhere on the same date that would help a lot. Good luck.

[arjunadawn]

Hi Arjunadawn, The UK has a free national health system, which could be seen as very attractive to an American with a long term, serious health issue. Your wife would not have been refused as she has a legitimate reason and she would also easily get a work visa in the UK as a doctor. You on the other hand had provide no proof of your long term relationship and had married immediately prior to the application.

Provide joint utility bills from your time together, any joint tenancy agreements, any online travel/hotel bookings you may have in your email, any airline boarding pass stubs with the same travel date/times on them, a number of pictures of yourselves together throughout the relationship, especially any in front of recognisable landmarks i.e. State of Liberty, and any old joint bank account statements. Basically, overload them with proof that the two of you have been an item for the length of time that you have.

Good luck with the review.

Yea... They know I have total health care coverage and funds, it was part of both or her packet. You and the others are correct. I never thought it through. The more I read these responses the dumber I think I was. But...

Yes, today I printed out 300 photos from different countries, the president and dean of our graduate school (friends of ours) are writing letters, her dad (dean of a major university here in BKK) is also writing letters, and the emails, the wedding books, the videos, etc. I dont like photos so much but I am super glad now.

[meltingpot2015]

your visa completed her UK entry clearence

?? apart from the slight typo.

Generally, it provides the reasons for refusal quite clearly.

If you are re-applying find out if it can be done at the the same embassy (you applied in Thailand right?), and if there is any time limit before you can make fresh application.

Also, about applying from U.S...the application will probably ask you if you've made a recent application elsewhere.

[a99az]

Guess the UK is full just now with immigrants so your slot was given to some Afghan or Somali you got to see how it works grab another number pal or jump a train into the UK like everyone else.

[7by7]

First, ignore the comments from the ignorant who just want to rant about UK immigration, legal or otherwise, and not offer any constructive advise.

Second, as others have said, marrying immediately prior to the application together with not supplying any evidence of your previous 5 year relationship does make it look like a marriage of convenience.

Third. Each application is treated on it's own merits. Your wife met all the requirements for her visa and showed that she did; visa granted. You may have met all requirements for yours but didn't show that you did; visa denied.

I'm not sure if, in your position, I would go for the administrative review or simply apply again, addressing all the issues raised in this refusal and supplying the necessary evidence of your 5 year relationship.

To be honest, I think the best people to advise on this are Tony M or Paul from TVE. Hopefully one of them will respond soon.

[fbf]

Wow. This speaks, tongue in cheek, to what another basically said, its easier to come in with the hoards. At least then I would have free hotel and other goodies. It seems like senseless penalty when there really appears to be no actual enforcement from the ones who will remain. The reviewer had all my bank statements and proof of monthly income, etc. The idea an American who retires to Thailand with money will marry a Thai doctor to sneak into the UK- when he could otherwise just fly in- just seems absurd. They denied me for submitting a "fake marriage" but approved her for sponsoring it. In any event, you folks are correct: besides the wedding books and videos we already have today I printed 300 photos and emails and will collected docs, insurance, etc. I decided to even include the emails from years ago when we are a bit spicy in our exchanges. Only someone in a relationship would refer to ______as the stepdaughters and wicked stepmother (dont ask) :-) Let them read all about that!

I sympathise with your situation, as I am currently awaiting a decision on my Thai wife's visa application to settle with me in the UK.

It seems to me that your application failed because you made assumptions about what might influence the application. That is understandable; it might indeed make sense for the British Embassy to look at the "big picture" based on both applications, and if fraud is suspected in one then to also question the other. The fact that they failed to do so is actually a good outcome for your wife of course.

The immigration rules seem to be increasingly strict, perhaps not always fair and maybe not applied with absolute competence and consistency, but they are perhaps also more simplistic and objective than you imagine. My guess (and other forum members have more experience/insight) is that the entry clearance officer (ECO) won't try and make judgements based on reasoning like "we don't have a problem with immigration from the USA, so he's probably ok".

The need for you to demonstrate that you are in a genuine and subsisting relationship is one criterion that must be satisfied. Don't expect them to guess. It's even possible that the ECO guessed that your relationship is genuine, but refused the application because you didn't provide objective evidence to show that. In other words, his or her decision needs to stand up to scrutiny based on the evidence. This, among other things, can help to avoid discrimination (and this is very speculative on my part now), i.e. if Americans easily get their visa granted despite a lack of required evidence while nationals of other countries, with the same lack of evidence, are denied.

You do not need to show explicit detail to prove your relationship, or dump a mountain of evidence on the next ECO to review your case. In your situation, I would go with a brief covering letter outlining the key points and dates of the relationship (one or two short paragraphs), explain any times you've spent apart and supply evidence of emails (subject/date would be enough) or phone/Skype calls; likewise for times spent together, I would explain the living/working situation and provide brief evidence. For photos, they don't need to be especially romantic (kissing etc), just a selection of 20 pics showing the two of you together in a variety of situations, places and times. Even 20 is probably more than needed.

It is a shame that you didn't have the legal marriage at around the time of the traditional wedding. I would address this in any covering letter, but would be very brief and matter of fact about any reasons, not make it a direct discussion or reference to why your first application was refused. I'd be interested to know what other forum members think on that point however.

Some people have said it looks suspicious that you applied for the visa immediately after the marriage. I don't entirely agree. I think (and hope) it is a common occurrence to submit the visa application shortly after marriage in the hope of living together in the UK shortly after. The issue is if the legal marriage is the only evidence of your relationship.

Anyway, I wish you the very best of luck and sorry for the length of this somewhat opinionated reply.

A little off-topic, but your application was submitted a few working days after my wife's (the appointment was 17th July), and she is still awaiting a decision. I guess it's not an absolute first-in-first-out queue of processing, with a little natural variance...

Edited August 9, 2015 by fbf

[johninbkk71]

Check out visas for other European countries you maybe able to get in the back door. But if your on a computer database as denied visa maybe not.

[meltingpot2015]

Other similar experiences:

http://live-less-ordinary.com/uk-visa-application-in-bangkok-asia/

All the best.

Edited August 9, 2015 by meltingpot2015

[Shawn0001]

Contact Michael Dixon as he is an expert on getting a UK wife visa.

Call him ...

You did not read what he said. His wife got her Visa so Michael cannot help her get a visa that she already has.

His expertise won't cover husbands, only wives!

[arjunadawn]

Wow. This speaks, tongue in cheek, to what another basically said, its easier to come in with the hoards. At least then I would have free hotel and other goodies. It seems like senseless penalty when there really appears to be no actual enforcement from the ones who will remain. The reviewer had all my bank statements and proof of monthly income, etc. The idea an American who retires to Thailand with money will marry a Thai doctor to sneak into the UK- when he could otherwise just fly in- just seems absurd. They denied me for submitting a "fake marriage" but approved her for sponsoring it. In any event, you folks are correct: besides the wedding books and videos we already have today I printed 300 photos and emails and will collected docs, insurance, etc. I decided to even include the emails from years ago when we are a bit spicy in our exchanges. Only someone in a relationship would refer to ______as the stepdaughters and wicked stepmother (dont ask) :-) Let them read all about that!

I sympathise with your situation, as I am currently awaiting a decision on my Thai wife's visa application to settle with me in the UK.

It seems to me that your application failed because you made assumptions about what might influence the application. That is understandable; it might indeed make sense for the British Embassy to look at the "big picture" based on both applications, and if fraud is suspected in one then to also question the other. The fact that they failed to do so is actually a good outcome for your wife of course.

The immigration rules seem to be increasingly strict, perhaps not always fair and maybe not applied with absolute competence and consistency, but they are perhaps also more simplistic and objective than you imagine. My guess (and other forum members have more experience/insight) is that the entry clearance officer (ECO) won't try and make judgements based on reasoning like "we don't have a problem with immigration from the USA, so he's probably ok".

The need for you to demonstrate that you are in a genuine and subsisting relationship is one criterion that must be satisfied. Don't expect them to guess. It's even possible that the ECO guessed that your relationship is genuine, but refused the application because you didn't provide objective evidence to show that. In other words, his or her decision needs to stand up to scrutiny based on the evidence. This, among other things, can help to avoid discrimination (and this is very speculative on my part now), i.e. if Americans easily get their visa granted despite a lack of required evidence while nationals of other countries, with the same lack of evidence, are denied.

You do not need to show explicit detail to prove your relationship, or dump a mountain of evidence on the next ECO to review your case. In your situation, I would go with a brief covering letter outlining the key points and dates of the relationship (one or two short paragraphs), explain any times you've spent apart and supply evidence of emails (subject/date would be enough) or phone/Skype calls; likewise for times spent together, I would explain the living/working situation and provide brief evidence. For photos, they don't need to be especially romantic (kissing etc), just a selection of 20 pics showing the two of you together in a variety of situations, places and times. Even 20 is probably more than needed.

It is a shame that you didn't have the legal marriage at around the time of the traditional wedding. I would address this in any covering letter, but would be very brief and matter of fact about any reasons, not make it a direct discussion or reference to why your first application was refused. I'd be interested to know what other forum members think on that point however.

Some people have said it looks suspicious that you applied for the visa immediately after the marriage. I don't entirely agree. I think (and hope) it is a common occurrence to submit the visa application shortly after marriage in the hope of living together in the UK shortly after. The issue is if the legal marriage is the only evidence of your relationship.

Anyway, I wish you the very best of luck and sorry for the length of this somewhat opinionated reply.

A little off-topic, but your application was submitted a few working days after my wife's (the appointment was 17th July), and she is still awaiting a decision. I guess it's not an absolute first-in-first-out queue of processing, with a little natural variance...

I immediately and continue to realize it does look suspicious. I just did not consider that I would be a suspect as possibly having ulterior motives. Perhaps this is what they call ethnocentrism- I assumed as an American no one would suspect I would lie to gain access to a place I could otherwise just fly into. Also, I pretty much passed the buck to my wife and had her do everything. This was unfair. The one thing she asked of me was to write a document stating our marriage was genuine. I told her no man would write such a thing. Only a person who is lying would state such a thing. Well, I eat my words because this is exactly the letter I now have to write. How foolish I have been. I do not blame the officer. I blame myself for being a dumbass.