The queue for immigration this morning.

[CMNightRider]

CM Immigration online queue has been down since immigration moved to Promenada. There is a shortage of immigration staff at their new Promenada office. When reporting for the 90 day requirement, you have to show up early in the morning for a queue. Then to add insult to injury, immigration officers require foreigners to sit outside in the heat rather than inside their new air-conditioned office.

All this took place after the CM Immigration presentation at the CM Expat club, where they said their services are going to improve once they make their historic move to their new complex at Promenada Mall.

There is something wrong with this picture. It appears immigration staff may be trying to make it difficult for foreigners to complete immigration requirements, without the aid of outside help such as an attorney or one of the visa services.

Of course. Those visa fees from agents are a nice little earner for them.

I would certainly hope there isn't someone at CM Immigration profiting from their failure to provide immigration services without the aid of outside help. I would rather think they have already hired a computer person to get their online queue functional again, and have more immigration staff being trained up as we speak, along with re-thinking their position of forcing foreigners (many elderly) to spend the day out in the elements, such as extreme heat, heavy rains, and possible life threatening dust storms.

[Ozziepat]

Reality check;

The photo that started this shows maybe what, 30-40 people in a line? At 2 minutes per, that's an average processing time of 40 minutes - and this given the tendency for an above average number to show up early to avoid the situation caused by their behavior. If people just arrive at random times there is never a reason for long lines on average; such would be a statistical anomaly. But, highlighting the possibility is guaranteed to exacerbate the problem, which just breeds more concern and complaints, which further exacerbates... Thanks for that.

You might recognize this as a variant on the prisoner's dilemma. If everyone "behaved," everyone would benefit. But they won't.

[Greenside]

The whole 90 reporting idea has always seemed crazy to me and useful only for creating (unnecessary) work within the immigration system. To my knowledge, I've never had anyone check that the address I've provided on my 90 day form is genuine, and since our movements within the country aren't seriously monitored (not yet, anyway) with many people spending time traveling, the usefulness of the information as a way to contact the person concerned in an emergency is highly questionable.

Why not simply require the holder of an annual visa extension to report a change of the address on their original application within say, ten days of moving, and set a significant enough penalty to motivate compliance? Notification of a change of address could be done in the same way as a current 90 report resulting in less stress and congestion all round. How many people move home four times a year?

Since landlords are required (theoretically, at least) to notify the immigration department when an foreigner moves into a rented property, there is a fairly simple way of policing the system and fines could be levied when/if a new extension is applied for. Most long stayers do not want to jeopardise their extension application and so I would predict that the system would work at least as well as the the current mess.

Sadly, this system is very unlikely to be considered because it hasn't been conceived locally.

[chuang]

Why didn't the thai immigration opens a section to assist in visa applications for foreigners for a fee just like an agent.....save all the inconvenience if you are willing to pay ...

[Greenside]

You already have to pay a fee for most services. Taking a free service like Certificate Of Residence used to be and charging for it did nothing to make it more efficient - just more expensive.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Greenside

[Beng]

Two steps forward and four steps backward.

Seems that way indeed. And... the fact that the agency next to IO can do the 90 day joke right away, when no one else is given a queue number, indicates how corrupt those government servants really are.

[Beng]

Would love to also see a photo of the airport office morning queue.

Yep, would be interesting to see how many folks are waiting there at 08:30.

[CMNightRider]

Reality check;

The photo that started this shows maybe what, 30-40 people in a line? At 2 minutes per, that's an average processing time of 40 minutes - and this given the tendency for an above average number to show up early to avoid the situation caused by their behavior. If people just arrive at random times there is never a reason for long lines on average; such would be a statistical anomaly. But, highlighting the possibility is guaranteed to exacerbate the problem, which just breeds more concern and complaints, which further exacerbates... Thanks for that.

You might recognize this as a variant on the prisoner's dilemma. If everyone "behaved," everyone would benefit. But they won't.

"Prisoners dilemma"??? A friend of mine who has lived in CM for over 10 years, showed up at immigration at 1:00 pm yesterday for his 90 day report. The immigration officer said, they were all ready full for the day, and suggested he return the next day at 7:00 am in the morning.

I think there is a problem when one has to show up at 7:00 am in the morning just to get into the daily queue for the nonsensical 90 day report. I wonder what time you have to be at immigration for the one year retirement visa?

Somehow I don't think this has to do with prison life unless you do something stupid at immigration.

[delboy]

Why not simply require the holder of an annual visa extension to report a change of the address on their original application within say, ten days of moving, and set a significant enough penalty to motivate compliance? Notification of a change of address could be done in the same way as a current 90 report resulting in less stress and congestion all round. How many people move home four times a year?

As far as I know, there is still a requirement for aliens to report a change of address to the police within 24 hours (form TM 28).

[TheAppletons]

"Prisoners dilemma"??? A friend of mine who has lived in CM for over 10 years, showed up at immigration at 1:00 pm yesterday for his 90 day report. The immigration officer said, they were all ready full for the day, and suggested he return the next day at 7:00 am in the morning.

I think there is a problem when one has to show up at 7:00 am in the morning just to get into the daily queue for the nonsensical 90 day report. I wonder what time you have to be at immigration for the one year retirement visa?

Somehow I don't think this has to do with prison life unless you do something stupid at immigration.

The prisoner's dilemma is a canonical example of a game analyzed in game theory that shows why two purely "rational" individuals might not cooperate, even if it appears that it is in their best interests to do so. It was originally framed by Merrill Flood and Melvin Dresher working at RAND in 1950. Albert W. Tucker formalized the game with prison sentence rewards and gave it the name "prisoner's dilemma" (Poundstone, 1992), presenting it as follows:

Two members of a criminal gang are arrested and imprisoned. Each prisoner is in solitary confinement with no means of speaking to or exchanging messages with the other. The prosecutors do not have enough evidence to convict the pair on the principal charge. They hope to get both sentenced to a year in prison on a lesser charge. Simultaneously, the prosecutors offer each prisoner a bargain. Each prisoner is given the opportunity either to: betray the other by testifying that the other committed the crime, or to cooperate with the other by remaining silent. Here is the offer:

If A and B each betray the other, each of them serves 2 years in prison

If A betrays B but B remains silent, A will be set free and B will serve 3 years in prison (and vice versa)

If A and B both remain silent, both of them will only serve 1 year in prison (on the lesser charge)

It is implied that the prisoners will have no opportunity to reward or punish their partner other than the prison sentences they get, and that their decision will not affect their reputation in the future. Because betraying a partner offers a greater reward than cooperating with him, all purely rational self-interested prisoners would betray the other, and so the only possible outcome for two purely rational prisoners is for them to betray each other.[1]

The interesting part of this result is that pursuing individual reward logically leads both of the prisoners to betray, when they would get a better reward if they both kept silent. In reality, humans display a systematic bias towards cooperative behavior in this and similar games, much more so than predicted by simple models of "rational" self-interested action.[2][3][4][5] A model based on a different kind of rationality, where people forecast how the game would be played if they formed coalitions and then they maximize their forecasts, has been shown to make better predictions of the rate of cooperation in this and similar games given only the payoffs of the game.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

[DavidOxon]

I really like the way it seems to annoy the officers inside when you go in and ask for a number! 'Go to information! Go to information!' I looked around but couldn't see any sign of an information desk. 'Outside! Outside!' (You stupid dirty farang - not spoken but seemed inferred to me)

Outside no sign for information.... had a wander round, found a desk with a scribbled messages. '90 day full. come back tomorrow'.

It is like they really hate us being there ruining their facebook/selfie time.

[elektrified]

CM Immigration online queue has been down since immigration moved to Promenada. There is a shortage of immigration staff at their new Promenada office. When reporting for the 90 day requirement, you have to show up early in the morning for a queue. Then to add insult to injury, immigration officers require foreigners to sit outside in the heat rather than inside their new air-conditioned office.

All this took place after the CM Immigration presentation at the CM Expat club, where they said their services are going to improve once they make their historic move to their new complex at Promenada Mall.

There is something wrong with this picture. It appears immigration staff may be trying to make it difficult for foreigners to complete immigration requirements, without the aid of outside help such as an attorney or one of the visa services.

Maybe they just want people to send the 90-day reports in by post like they have been asking people to do for months now - maybe even a year?

[connda]

Maybe something that would be useful is if they would put a notice in the window how to do 90 day mail in and 90 day online reporting though the latter is hit and miss. Perhaps add the QR code to the 90 day report pinned topic.

90 Day QR Code.jpg

Hello, the OP shows a picture of people unable to use the postage system. They're going to now get QR codes?

Right. And again I'm not being callous towards the elderly, but how difficult is it to put those same papers that they are holding while waiting in the queue, into an envelope and hand it to the postman/lady when they pass by their homes each day?

I don't do my 90 day report by mail because I have never had piece of mail delivered in over 5 years I have lived here. I gave up several years ago and got a mail box which works well, never any missing mail. But I don't think immigration will accept a mail box as an address, they want to reply to an actual address. It is some sort of proof that you live there, I suppose.

I just had my last 90 day sent to my PO Box in Southern Lamphun province. No problem.

[daoyai]

CM Immigration online queue has been down since immigration moved to Promenada. There is a shortage of immigration staff at their new Promenada office. When reporting for the 90 day requirement, you have to show up early in the morning for a queue. Then to add insult to injury, immigration officers require foreigners to sit outside in the heat rather than inside their new air-conditioned office.

All this took place after the CM Immigration presentation at the CM Expat club, where they said their services are going to improve once they make their historic move to their new complex at Promenada Mall.

There is something wrong with this picture. It appears immigration staff may be trying to make it difficult for foreigners to complete immigration requirements, without the aid of outside help such as an attorney or one of the visa services.

Maybe they just want people to send the 90-day reports in by post like they have been asking people to do for months now - maybe even a year?

Why do you keep saying they are asking people to use the post? I have never been asked to use the post by any Imm. cop. Have you? while the post seems to be the best option at present it is the recent developments that make it so. the old office was more convenient in that I need only one stop, instead of needing to go to a copy shop, then Imm.... and service was arguably comparable to waiting at a post office que after a copy shop stop. So yea , everybody use the mail or if you are feeling lucky , try the online. Avoid the Prom office, they obvioulsy don't respect you and don't want to see you.

Edited August 14, 2015 by daoyai

[CMNightRider]

CM Immigration online queue has been down since immigration moved to Promenada. There is a shortage of immigration staff at their new Promenada office. When reporting for the 90 day requirement, you have to show up early in the morning for a queue. Then to add insult to injury, immigration officers require foreigners to sit outside in the heat rather than inside their new air-conditioned office.

All this took place after the CM Immigration presentation at the CM Expat club, where they said their services are going to improve once they make their historic move to their new complex at Promenada Mall.

There is something wrong with this picture. It appears immigration staff may be trying to make it difficult for foreigners to complete immigration requirements, without the aid of outside help such as an attorney or one of the visa services.

Maybe they just want people to send the 90-day reports in by post like they have been asking people to do for months now - maybe even a year?

If immigration wanted all foreigners to mail in their 90 day report, that would be the requirement. Maybe they want to be known as the worst of the worst immigration office in Thailand. If so, they have achieved their goal.

[DavidOxon]

I've never been asked to mail it in. just fined 2000 baht for being a day late.... on a Monday!

[connda]

The whole 90 reporting idea has always seemed crazy to me and useful only for creating (unnecessary) work within the immigration system. To my knowledge, I've never had anyone check that the address I've provided on my 90 day form is genuine, and since our movements within the country aren't seriously monitored (not yet, anyway) with many people spending time traveling, the usefulness of the information as a way to contact the person concerned in an emergency is highly questionable.

Why not simply require the holder of an annual visa extension to report a change of the address on their original application within say, ten days of moving, and set a significant enough penalty to motivate compliance? Notification of a change of address could be done in the same way as a current 90 report resulting in less stress and congestion all round. How many people move home four times a year?

Since landlords are required (theoretically, at least) to notify the immigration department when an foreigner moves into a rented property, there is a fairly simple way of policing the system and fines could be levied when/if a new extension is applied for. Most long stayers do not want to jeopardise their extension application and so I would predict that the system would work at least as well as the the current mess.

Sadly, this system is very unlikely to be considered because it hasn't been conceived locally.

Take it one step further: Why does someone marriaged to a Thai and who is in possession of a Tabian Baan (Yellow House Book) need to report their address ever 90 days. I'm already in the system with the Tabian Baan.

Edited August 14, 2015 by connda

[hml367]

What does a Yellow House Book have to do with Immigration?

[Greenside]

What does a Yellow House Book have to do with Immigration?

It has everything to with having an officially recognised residential address, notification of which seems to be the only point of reporting every 90 days. There is little if anything in the various regulations regarding reporting of addresses that makes any sense.

Why is this not a surprise?

[connda]

What does a Yellow House Book have to do with Immigration?

2100 posts and you don't know?

They want to know your current address. A Yellow House Book is the official Thai document listing your current address. The TM47 is simply redundant, non-nonsensical paper-pushing. It wouldn't be rocket science for the Thai Immigration system to be able to access the house book databases.

I could have sworn the reason that was given for immigration wanting 90 day reports was because foreigners may commit criminal acts and they need to know where to find them.

Well, using the same logic, all 76 million Thais may commit criminal acts and should be submitting 90 day reports. Why don't they? They have Tabian Baan (Blue House Books). Blue for Thai natives. Yellow for foreigner. So Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, that system should work for both Thais and foreigners. I'm in their Tabian Baan database! They know where I live!

Edited August 14, 2015 by connda

[hml367]

The databases are not connected, I believe.

Wanting them to be connected to make a non-citizen's life easier is probably not going to make it happen.

Edited August 14, 2015 by hml367

[connda]

The databases are not connected, I believe.

Wanting them to be connected to make a non-citizen's life easier is probably not going to make it happen.

We're in agreement!!!

[Greenside]

The thinking isn't connected either...

[slipperylobster]

Some were there at 4am yesterday and still there at 4pm when I left! People in their seventies and in wheelchairs should be shown more respect than to be left out all day like cattle!

They are there by choice. Perhaps they are not up on current events making the 90 day report a snap.

Online or mail. It may be immigration's sincerest wish for these people to learn the new system, and quit clogging up the aisles

Edited August 14, 2015 by slipperylobster

[daoyai]

Some were there at 4am yesterday and still there at 4pm when I left! People in their seventies and in wheelchairs should be shown more respect than to be left out all day like cattle!

They are there by choice. Perhaps they are not up on current events making the 90 day report a snap.

Online or mail. It may be immigration's sincerest wish for these people to learn the new system, and quit clogging up the aisles

The 4:AM crowd aren't there for 90s more than likely trying to get their yearly or visa extension. Especially if still there in late afternoon. Failed system, failed RTP.... nothing new there.

[elektrified]

CM Immigration online queue has been down since immigration moved to Promenada. There is a shortage of immigration staff at their new Promenada office. When reporting for the 90 day requirement, you have to show up early in the morning for a queue. Then to add insult to injury, immigration officers require foreigners to sit outside in the heat rather than inside their new air-conditioned office.

All this took place after the CM Immigration presentation at the CM Expat club, where they said their services are going to improve once they make their historic move to their new complex at Promenada Mall.

There is something wrong with this picture. It appears immigration staff may be trying to make it difficult for foreigners to complete immigration requirements, without the aid of outside help such as an attorney or one of the visa services.

Maybe they just want people to send the 90-day reports in by post like they have been asking people to do for months now - maybe even a year?

Why do you keep saying they are asking people to use the post? I have never been asked to use the post by any Imm. cop. Have you? while the post seems to be the best option at present it is the recent developments that make it so. the old office was more convenient in that I need only one stop, instead of needing to go to a copy shop, then Imm.... and service was arguably comparable to waiting at a post office que after a copy shop stop. So yea , everybody use the mail or if you are feeling lucky , try the online. Avoid the Prom office, they obvioulsy don't respect you and don't want to see you.

It was posted on this very forum that Immigration Officers requested that foreigners send their 90-day reports by post when they attended the meeting of the Expat club. I believe NancyL passed on that info.

You don't need to go to a copy shop or P.O.; just print out many copies of your documents to have them ready to hand to the postman/lady. I never leave my house to make a 90-day report.

Oh, I have no intention of going to the Prom office until next June when my extension is due.

[elektrified]

What does a Yellow House Book have to do with Immigration?

2100 posts and you don't know?

They want to know your current address. A Yellow House Book is the official Thai document listing your current address. The TM47 is simply redundant, non-nonsensical paper-pushing. It wouldn't be rocket science for the Thai Immigration system to be able to access the house book databases.

I could have sworn the reason that was given for immigration wanting 90 day reports was because foreigners may commit criminal acts and they need to know where to find them.

Well, using the same logic, all 76 million Thais may commit criminal acts and should be submitting 90 day reports. Why don't they? They have Tabian Baan (Blue House Books). Blue for Thai natives. Yellow for foreigner. So Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, that system should work for both Thais and foreigners. I'm in their Tabian Baan database! They know where I live!

Not necessarily true. My wife has 3 blue Tabian Baan books for properties she owns, but doesn't live at any of them.

[Sparkles]

Electrified you are making the mistake again of believing that the majority of expats either use Thai Visa or go to Expat meetings.I would humbly suggest that is a very small minority. It all could be solved, as I suggested months ag,o by Immigration puting a sign alongside the queue that mail ins are the prefeered option to clear the grid lock or have an intern hand out a simple flyer.If they are not prepared to do this logical method I presume that are happy

to have us suffer as well as themselves.

I use mail in and have done for 12 months but I run into many people who simply don't know it exists and Immigration officers HAVE NEVER told them it does when they are being processed.

[NancyL]

Electrified you are making the mistake again of believing that the majority of expats either use Thai Visa or go to Expat meetings.I would humbly suggest that is a very small minority. It all could be solved, as I suggested months ag,o by Immigration puting a sign alongside the queue that mail ins are the prefeered option to clear the grid lock or have an intern hand out a simple flyer.If they are not prepared to do this logical method I presume that are happy

to have us suffer as well as themselves.

I use mail in and have done for 12 months but I run into many people who simply don't know it exists and Immigration officers HAVE NEVER told them it does when they are being processed.

I think this explains a large reason why some people are in 90 day queue. Or there are misconceptions about the mail-in procedure. Like "you have to mail in your passport" or "I tried it once and never got my slip back" or "mail delivery isn't reliable in my moo baan"

Of course others are in that queue because they've never been to Promenada before and want to see what all the fuss is about. They probably stand around and watch cars getting pulled out of the moat, too.

And others are there for "legitimate" reasons, as in they're late and have to pay a fine, which can only be done in person. As if being late with a 90 day report is a "legitimate" reason. Of course, I shouldn't throw stones. Hubby was late once, until I took over the visa calendar duties. (we're on different visa cycles)

Edited August 14, 2015 by NancyL

[CMfoodie]

What is appalling about all this is the US Consul General refuses to apply a tit for tat with Thai authorities.

With over 10,000 US citizens in Chiang Mai he could exercise some influence into alleviating this dreadful situation.

Do the 400,000 Thais living in the US have go through this? NO