Thai pilots lose out to foreign nationals, petition NLA intervention

[bangrak]

Well, let's see. Maybe if the Thai pilots were as competent as the foreign pilots, this wouldn't be an issue.

The thai pilots currently flying for the same companies are very competant, the problem is there are not enough Thai pilots with the experience and hours required,

but i shall bow down to your superior knowlege of all things pertaining to flying a chopper and your vast years of aviation experience flying a bar stool

No, the problem is in part zenophobic discrimination against foreign pilots:

"The association argues that these routes should be handled by Thai nationals."

Although Thai and foreigners have equal piloting skills, the Association wants Thai hiring preferences.

its not Zenophobic in the least companies investing in Thailand and many other countries i might add are typically required to formulate nationalisation polices which are implemented over a period of years and foreigner "experts" are brought in for a period of time to train the locals, thats all this sabre rattling is all about,

something similar happened last year with similar comments from the association at the end of the day the assocation can flap their lips as much as they want the aircraft dont belong to them

if they pushed the issue too far and the company concerned pulled out and took their choppers, the O & G industry would be thrown into chaos and guess whose pocket it would hit ? Thailands you cant replace a fleet of aircraft over night

TV finest seem so fixated and blinded on Thai bashing they dont apply any common sense to the issue

For sure you both meant to write: 'xenophobic'.

[Soutpeel]

The emphasis of the O and G industry is safety.

A prominent conerstone of safety is competency.

Are Thai pilots as competent as the foreign nationals?

Or did they train in....ahem...Thailand.

Lets put it this way O&G has been on the go in the gulf of Thailand for over 50 years and how many chopper accidents or crashed have there been in the gulf of Thailand whether foreigner or Thai at the controls ? As far as i am aware and stand to be corrected of course the answer is ZERO

Over the same 50 year period how many in the north sea or the Gulf of mexico ? And before someone says it not all chopper crashes in the north sea are weather related either

A quick statistic relating to the Gulf of Mexico - 1983 to 2009 - 163 chopper crashes in O&G operations

As you seem to be so good in statistics, could you please write down in a column A) Gulf of Mexico and a Gulf of Thailand, 1) the number of O&G installations served by choppers; 2) the number of choppers being operated in related activities; 3) the number of take-offs/landings in such; 4) the number of flying hours in such; 5) the number of pilots having been flying such? The 6) being your 163 to nil crashrecord. That would be informative indeed.

Thank you so much!

I dont have that information and you know it but you can be a good little boy and stop being a smart arse and research the statistics your self and present your findings if you can find the info

but i will start you off by stating the GOT has over 350 operational facilites

[bangrak]

Well, let's see. Maybe if the Thai pilots were as competent as the foreign pilots, this wouldn't be an issue.

The thai pilots currently flying for the same companies are very competant, the problem is there are not enough Thai pilots with the experience and hours required,

but i shall bow down to your superior knowlege of all things pertaining to flying a chopper and your vast years of aviation experience flying a bar stool

Thank you for telling us there are not enough Thai pilots with the experience and hours required (but you call them 'competent...)!

Please advise the companies about a solution then:

a) keep their choppers on the ground;

allow Thai pilots with not enough experience and flying hours, with all liabilities; or,

c) hire foreigners with the required experience and hours, and fly safely according to the book.

Hope this is not a nutcracker of a multiple choice to you, and with your obvious vast experience in flying jets, you for sure know how strict the rules are.

I don't have over 20,000 'opinions' on TV, but yours on this topic doesn't, in my opinion that is, seem like very 'competent' indeed...

You obviously dont have a clue do you the only nut cracker appears to be you dear boy

Now I know the origin of the badger avatar: it's you high temper of course

[jaywalker]

Strange...why on heavens Earth would a company want to hire a foreign pilot instead of Thai pilots? Maybe this is the question the TPA should discuss rather than trying to torpedo them.

In the first instance as training pilots landing on an oil rig is not the same as bombing somewhere, and as stated there are not enough Thai pilots with the required hours and ratings on the specific aircraft to meet the number of flights needed

So why don't they fix the problem of hours and ratings instead a crying about it?

[bangrak]

The emphasis of the O and G industry is safety.

A prominent conerstone of safety is competency.

Are Thai pilots as competent as the foreign nationals?

Or did they train in....ahem...Thailand.

Lets put it this way O&G has been on the go in the gulf of Thailand for over 50 years and how many chopper accidents or crashed have there been in the gulf of Thailand whether foreigner or Thai at the controls ? As far as i am aware and stand to be corrected of course the answer is ZERO

Over the same 50 year period how many in the north sea or the Gulf of mexico ? And before someone says it not all chopper crashes in the north sea are weather related either

A quick statistic relating to the Gulf of Mexico - 1983 to 2009 - 163 chopper crashes in O&G operations

As you seem to be so good in statistics, could you please write down in a column A) Gulf of Mexico and a Gulf of Thailand, 1) the number of O&G installations served by choppers; 2) the number of choppers being operated in related activities; 3) the number of take-offs/landings in such; 4) the number of flying hours in such; 5) the number of pilots having been flying such? The 6) being your 163 to nil crashrecord. That would be informative indeed.

Thank you so much!

I dont have that information and you know it but you can be a good little boy and stop being a smart arse and research the statistics your self and present your findings if you can find the info

but i will start you off by stating the GOT has over 350 operational facilites

You're the one starting with stats between the GOM and GOT, but these are just meaningless numbers when you cannot relate them to the real figures.

Let's get it easy though: do you consider the complaining Thai pilots should be allowed to fly these choppers, although not having the required experience and hours? Yes or no? Period!

[Soutpeel]

The emphasis of the O and G industry is safety.

A prominent conerstone of safety is competency.

Are Thai pilots as competent as the foreign nationals?

Or did they train in....ahem...Thailand.

Lets put it this way O&G has been on the go in the gulf of Thailand for over 50 years and how many chopper accidents or crashed have there been in the gulf of Thailand whether foreigner or Thai at the controls ? As far as i am aware and stand to be corrected of course the answer is ZERO

Over the same 50 year period how many in the north sea or the Gulf of mexico ? And before someone says it not all chopper crashes in the north sea are weather related either

A quick statistic relating to the Gulf of Mexico - 1983 to 2009 - 163 chopper crashes in O&G operations

As you seem to be so good in statistics, could you please write down in a column A) Gulf of Mexico and a Gulf of Thailand, 1) the number of O&G installations served by choppers; 2) the number of choppers being operated in related activities; 3) the number of take-offs/landings in such; 4) the number of flying hours in such; 5) the number of pilots having been flying such? The 6) being your 163 to nil crashrecord. That would be informative indeed.

Thank you so much!

I dont have that information and you know it but you can be a good little boy and stop being a smart arse and research the statistics your self and present your findings if you can find the info

but i will start you off by stating the GOT has over 350 operational facilites

You're the one starting with stats between the GOM and GOT, but these are just meaningless numbers when you cannot relate them to the real figures.

Let's get it easy though: do you consider the complaining Thai pilots should be allowed to fly these choppers, although not having the required experience and hours? Yes or no? Period!

The real figure in this case is 0 and the other is 163 so its not meaningless as a comparision your grabbing at straws

Let me answer your question in the simplest manner possible so even you can understand said pilots would not allowed to fly without a training pilot in this case as the companies insurance would not allow it - simple enough for you ?

[Soutpeel]

Well, let's see. Maybe if the Thai pilots were as competent as the foreign pilots, this wouldn't be an issue.

The thai pilots currently flying for the same companies are very competant, the problem is there are not enough Thai pilots with the experience and hours required,

but i shall bow down to your superior knowlege of all things pertaining to flying a chopper and your vast years of aviation experience flying a bar stool

Thank you for telling us there are not enough Thai pilots with the experience and hours required (but you call them 'competent...)!

Please advise the companies about a solution then:

a) keep their choppers on the ground;

allow Thai pilots with not enough experience and flying hours, with all liabilities; or,

c) hire foreigners with the required experience and hours, and fly safely according to the book.

Hope this is not a nutcracker of a multiple choice to you, and with your obvious vast experience in flying jets, you for sure know how strict the rules are.

I don't have over 20,000 'opinions' on TV, but yours on this topic doesn't, in my opinion that is, seem like very 'competent' indeed...

You obviously dont have a clue do you the only nut cracker appears to be you dear boy

Now I know the origin of the badger avatar: it's you high temper of course

Not angry in the least just have very little tolerance for bigoted half wits thats all

[Litlos]

A few points to put things in perspective.

There are only about 40 O&G facilities that can land helicopters in the GOT, most facilities are unmanned satellite platforms.

There have been incidents in the GOT involving helicopters. Three I know of are:

• Tail rotor clipped structure on landing on an F(P)SO. Damage to rotor assy.
• S76 had to emergency land on an drilling rig due to problems, was then loaded on to a supply boat taken back to the beach and repaired.
• S76 accidently deployed floats about one metre above deck during take off. I was on that one, four very load bangs and very gently settled back on the deck.

Chevron run about 12 flights a day to various facilities in the GOT. These quite often hop between facilities. So lots of take offs and landings been going on for years. Not sure about the others.

There have been numerous Thai pilots trained up over the years. A lot then go and work overseas to get better money as the pilots pay in Thailand is not so good.

Generally the Thai pilots performed pretty well and I was only worried a couple of times by obviously 'Green" pilots. Have also been worried by green pilots in Australia, so not to much difference.

There is a likelihood that there will be a major incident involving a helicopter in the GOT at some time in the future.

Cheers

[Spleen]

the problem is they do not appreciate good management and planning in any industry/profession in Asia. The expats run the work finish it and the locals think , we don't need them anymore , we can do the next one without them. I could point you to 3 massive projects in Asia that are now late , over budget and built like <deleted>

[hawker9000]

Lets put it this way O&G has been on the go in the gulf of Thailand for over 50 years and how many chopper accidents or crashed have there been in the gulf of Thailand whether foreigner or Thai at the controls ? As far as i am aware and stand to be corrected of course the answer is ZERO

Over the same 50 year period how many in the north sea or the Gulf of mexico ? And before someone says it not all chopper crashes in the north sea are weather related either

A quick statistic relating to the Gulf of Mexico - 1983 to 2009 - 163 chopper crashes in O&G operations

As you seem to be so good in statistics, could you please write down in a column A) Gulf of Mexico and a Gulf of Thailand, 1) the number of O&G installations served by choppers; 2) the number of choppers being operated in related activities; 3) the number of take-offs/landings in such; 4) the number of flying hours in such; 5) the number of pilots having been flying such? The 6) being your 163 to nil crashrecord. That would be informative indeed.

Thank you so much!

I dont have that information and you know it but you can be a good little boy and stop being a smart arse and research the statistics your self and present your findings if you can find the info

but i will start you off by stating the GOT has over 350 operational facilites

You're the one starting with stats between the GOM and GOT, but these are just meaningless numbers when you cannot relate them to the real figures.

Let's get it easy though: do you consider the complaining Thai pilots should be allowed to fly these choppers, although not having the required experience and hours? Yes or no? Period!

I think the easily researched but inconvenient truth Soutpeel would rather not have us see is here. Ans: 2370. And I'm not sure that includes all O&G activities in the GOM involving flight operations, nor non-U.S. activities there. And no informed idea what other factors not present in the GOT might affect ops in the GOM.

WRT to Soutpeel's data, which looks suspiciously like it came from this site, what he doesn't mention from this same source is that mechanical failure (38%) and weather (16%) were the two most common accident causes. That same report also mentions the long travel distances associated with GOM O&G operations. Pilot error even as a "contributing factor" reportedly involved in less than half of the crashes.

Edited August 14, 2015 by hawker9000

[chrisinth]

Put a unqualified Thai pilot inside a helicopter and you have a potential disaster waiting to happen. I would fear for my life if I had to fly out to the oil rigs.

Put an unqualified pilot inside a helicopter and you will have a potential disaster waiting to happen.

I just saved typing four letters in my sentence........................

[JMWPACIFIC]

I was in a helicopter only once, from the top of the PanAm Building out to Idlewild. There's a reason that in Her busy first week, God did not create helicopters. They are as unnatural as the platypus. Besides the skill required to be airborne and alive, there's the maintenance schedule, words foreign to Thailand. It is totally racist of me to say it, especially as I live here, but I would never get into a helicopter with a Thai at the controls.

Hey, you must be as old as I am. Can't remember the last time anyone referred to as Idlewild. Cheers to us both!

[Soutpeel]

A few points to put things in perspective.

There are only about 40 O&G facilities that can land helicopters in the GOT, most facilities are unmanned satellite platforms.

There have been incidents in the GOT involving helicopters. Three I know of are:

• Tail rotor clipped structure on landing on an F(P)SO. Damage to rotor assy.
• S76 had to emergency land on an drilling rig due to problems, was then loaded on to a supply boat taken back to the beach and repaired.
• S76 accidently deployed floats about one metre above deck during take off. I was on that one, four very load bangs and very gently settled back on the deck.

Chevron run about 12 flights a day to various facilities in the GOT. These quite often hop between facilities. So lots of take offs and landings been going on for years. Not sure about the others.

There have been numerous Thai pilots trained up over the years. A lot then go and work overseas to get better money as the pilots pay in Thailand is not so good.

Generally the Thai pilots performed pretty well and I was only worried a couple of times by obviously 'Green" pilots. Have also been worried by green pilots in Australia, so not to much difference.

There is a likelihood that there will be a major incident involving a helicopter in the GOT at some time in the future.

Cheers

And add to that PTTEP flights - Bongkok & Artit - 6 to 8 flights a day

Pearl oil ( what ever they are called these days) maybe 2 flights a day

Thanks for the info on the 3 incidents by the looks of those at least 2 of the 3 where mechanical issues and seeing as the debate revolves around Thai pilots and the TV resident bigots opinion they are incompetant, of the 3 mentioned who was driving the bus at the time ? Foreign or Thai ?

[spidermike007]

The bottom line is that a company should be free to hire anyone they want, based on talent, experience, concerns about safety, etc. There is not a logical reason in the world to hire one of these crybabies, simply because he was born in Thailand. Ridiculous is ridiculous. These companies are simply not having any of it. Good on them. Sound reason, and common sense prevails!

Edited August 15, 2015 by Rimmer
Troll

[Rimmer]

A post has been edited and the quoted reply has been removed

[robblok]

Well, let's see. Maybe if the Thai pilots were as competent as the foreign pilots, this wouldn't be an issue.

The thai pilots currently flying for the same companies are very competant, the problem is there are not enough Thai pilots with the experience and hours required,

but i shall bow down to your superior knowlege of all things pertaining to flying a chopper and your vast years of aviation experience flying a bar stool

No, the problem is in part zenophobic discrimination against foreign pilots:

"The association argues that these routes should be handled by Thai nationals."

Although Thai and foreigners have equal piloting skills, the Association wants Thai hiring preferences.

Bet if you ask the same question in the UK you will get the same reply as here in Thailand.

[Soutpeel]

Well, let's see. Maybe if the Thai pilots were as competent as the foreign pilots, this wouldn't be an issue.

The thai pilots currently flying for the same companies are very competant, the problem is there are not enough Thai pilots with the experience and hours required,

but i shall bow down to your superior knowlege of all things pertaining to flying a chopper and your vast years of aviation experience flying a bar stool

No, the problem is in part zenophobic discrimination against foreign pilots:

"The association argues that these routes should be handled by Thai nationals."

Although Thai and foreigners have equal piloting skills, the Association wants Thai hiring preferences.

Bet if you ask the same question in the UK you will get the same reply as here in Thailand.

Bet if you ask the same question in a multitude of farangistan countries you will get the same answer

[robblok]

No, the problem is in part zenophobic discrimination against foreign pilots:

"The association argues that these routes should be handled by Thai nationals."

Although Thai and foreigners have equal piloting skills, the Association wants Thai hiring preferences.

Bet if you ask the same question in the UK you will get the same reply as here in Thailand.

Bet if you ask the same question in a multitude of farangistan countries you will get the same answer

Correct 100% people seem to forget what we are experiencing here is the same as what foreigners experience in their home countries. Only they seem to think that is ok just not when its them that feels the effects.

That why I am always so amazed there is zero empathy for foreigners in their home country expecting them to assimilate while we here do no such thing. I know that my views changed quite a bit since living here. (still think that people should work and be useful but I don't believe in assimilation just living their own life without bothering others)

[Bulldozer Dawn]

The emphasis of the O and G industry is safety.

A prominent conerstone of safety is competency.

Are Thai pilots as competent as the foreign nationals?

Or did they train in....ahem...Thailand.

Lets put it this way O&G has been on the go in the gulf of Thailand for over 50 years and how many chopper accidents or crashed have there been in the gulf of Thailand whether foreigner or Thai at the controls ? As far as i am aware and stand to be corrected of course the answer is ZERO

Over the same 50 year period how many in the north sea or the Gulf of mexico ? And before someone says it not all chopper crashes in the north sea are weather related either

A quick statistic relating to the Gulf of Mexico - 1983 to 2009 - 163 chopper crashes in O&G operations

As you seem to be so good in statistics, could you please write down in a column A) Gulf of Mexico and a Gulf of Thailand, 1) the number of O&G installations served by choppers; 2) the number of choppers being operated in related activities; 3) the number of take-offs/landings in such; 4) the number of flying hours in such; 5) the number of pilots having been flying such? The 6) being your 163 to nil crashrecord. That would be informative indeed.

Thank you so much!

Perhaps Soutpeel could also add to that list wind velocities, temperatures (no rotor icing in Thailand) and ocean swell. The North Sea and the Gulf of Thailand are entirely different duck ponds.

[aussieinthailand]

Why not be like in most civilized countries and hire the best person for the job. If the local lads can do just as well, then they will be hired, but if they are worse, cost more to train, well they can go learn on their own baht to catch up.

Considering your 5,000 plus posts I would think you well know that employment positions are not awarded to the best person for the job, regardless, training and ability, and qualifications, it's about money and even the lives and safety of others is a distant second when it comes to money and the position on offer by those that do the hiring and firing. I wonder just what language Thai people would be using if this was proposed in other country's demanding that foreigners can not have a position regardless of their qualifications.

I wonder how the people that have to fly in the choppers too and from work knowing that the "pilot" was only given the job because he/she in Thai and not the best qualified for the job???

[xenophon]

Maybe its because they prefer their passengers alive enough to become repeat customers

[Gonsalviz]

And this is exactly what to expect when ASEAN integration becomes a reality. Thailand will use its antiquated, xenophobic, and protectionist regulations to block the hiring of foreign talent. After all, how can Thais compete with properly trained and experienced professionals?

Have you ever been to other ASEAN nations?

[Soutpeel]

Why not be like in most civilized countries and hire the best person for the job. If the local lads can do just as well, then they will be hired, but if they are worse, cost more to train, well they can go learn on their own baht to catch up.

Considering your 5,000 plus posts I would think you well know that employment positions are not awarded to the best person for the job, regardless, training and ability, and qualifications, it's about money and even the lives and safety of others is a distant second when it comes to money and the position on offer by those that do the hiring and firing. I wonder just what language Thai people would be using if this was proposed in other country's demanding that foreigners can not have a position regardless of their qualifications.

I wonder how the people that have to fly in the choppers too and from work knowing that the "pilot" was only given the job because he/she in Thai and not the best qualified for the job???

I for one feel fine because i know know your posting BS anyway and obviously clueless Edited August 15, 2015 by Soutpeel

[billd766]

And this is exactly what to expect when ASEAN integration becomes a reality. Thailand will use its antiquated, xenophobic, and protectionist regulations to block the hiring of foreign talent. After all, how can Thais compete with properly trained and experienced professionals?

Because MANY Thais are properly trained and experienced professionals acroaa many skills in Thailand and abroad. The problem is that there are not enough of them available.

In this particular case it DOES take a fair amount of time and money to train helicopter pilots up to the required standard and I suspect when there enough pilots available some will be hired BUT their salary will not be the same as the current contractors especially if they are experienced helicopter instructors.

[billd766]

Strange...why on heavens Earth would a company want to hire a foreign pilot instead of Thai pilots? Maybe this is the question the TPA should discuss rather than trying to torpedo them.

In the first instance as training pilots landing on an oil rig is not the same as bombing somewhere, and as stated there are not enough Thai pilots with the required hours and ratings on the specific aircraft to meet the number of flights needed

Could you please stop bringing common sense into a Thai bashing post.

[billd766]

Put a unqualified Thai pilot inside a helicopter and you have a potential disaster waiting to happen. I would fear for my life if I had to fly out to the oil rigs.

Put an unqualified pilot inside a helicopter and you will have a potential disaster waiting to happen.

I just saved typing four letters in my sentence........................

So how do you train an unqualified pilot without putting him in a helicopter and training him?

[coulson]

"The companies in question have claimed to save time and money spent on training Thai pilots by hiring competent, licensed foreigners."

The story finishes at this sentence.

[Soutpeel]

Put a unqualified Thai pilot inside a helicopter and you have a potential disaster waiting to happen. I would fear for my life if I had to fly out to the oil rigs.

Put an unqualified pilot inside a helicopter and you will have a potential disaster waiting to happen.

I just saved typing four letters in my sentence........................

So how do you train an unqualified pilot without putting him in a helicopter and training him?

The fact one suspects the pilot is not even unqualifed, he many be qualifed on another aircraft type and needs to get his hours in on that particular aircraft thats all

what the great Thai bashers on this topic forget the company concerned will be private one with their own aircraft, their own extensive insurance polices and will be sub contracted to an MNC operating oil company to provide the service so:

1. The insurance company will not allow " unqualifed" pilots to fly

2 Do you really think a MNC operating oil company would let "unqualified " pilots be in charge of an aircraft transporting their personel offshore ?

Sorry to bring common sense into this discussion

[Bulldozer Dawn]

"The companies in question have claimed to save time and money spent on training Thai pilots by hiring competent, licensed foreigners."

The story finishes at this sentence.

But doesn't the farang aviation company have to employ 4 Thai pilots for every Farang pilot work permit? Unless the Farang owner is married to a Thai Pilot and then he would only have to employ 2 Thai pilots.

[robblok]

"The companies in question have claimed to save time and money spent on training Thai pilots by hiring competent, licensed foreigners."

The story finishes at this sentence.

But doesn't the farang aviation company have to employ 4 Thai pilots for every Farang pilot work permit? Unless the Farang owner is married to a Thai Pilot and then he would only have to employ 2 Thai pilots.

They do not have to be pilots, in a farang owned aviation company they could also be cleaners, office workers ect. There is no requirement for the jobs to be the same.