Slovakia 'to refuse Muslim migrants'

[micmichd]

"Arabic numbers" are actually from India.

Where to begin with Micmichd's post, and lengthy reply would probably have been deleted anyway as being off topic. Essentially though, as I see it, Islamic Empire was neither a breath of fresh air, nor an enlightenment.

Much of what the dawah spins to us today as being some kind of 'example' of Islam's 'inherent' genius, was utilising conquered peoples and building upon foundations of knowledge it encountered on conquering Byzantine lands and Sassanid Persia. None of this takes away from what talented individuals did upon those foundations over centuries of Islamic domination, but the notion that Islam 'itself' brought these marvels is questionable in the extreme...

(imo)

Muhammad's model for a mosque was simply a basic square building with a tower on one corner. Süleymaniye Camii, it wasn't. Nor the Dome of the Rock.

We're led to believe that the coming of Islam preserved ancient wisdom for the world, saved our ass and that we are indebted. "Striking story" as Commodus says, and I once fell hook line and sinker for this romantic tale because so much of Islamic Empire is surrounded by a very romantic Arabian Knight sensual, colourful, exotic, flowing curvy calligraphy. Very alluring, except for the Arabs of the conquest essentially being hardy simple bedouin.

Somewhere along the way, it got classy to the point where Caliphs began to be viewed as fat decadent dandies, not the battle scarred knights of the early Ummayad. The Mongols thought as such in terminating the last Abbasid Caliph in the manner they did. I think that change is very easily explained.

We're led to believe that everything in Byzantio and Persia would have vanished into thin air, had the marauding Arab conquest not invaded. Rather like the Mongols, they simply made full use of the wonders they conquered once settling, after being essentially armed bedouin with nothing to bring but trade experience on the peripheries of true civilisations and a long history of tribal feud. Who knows, but my guess is that had Islam been confined to the Arabian Peninsula, it would today resemble little more than the lifestyle of Bedouin found operating desert trips in Wadi Rum today, as all it did was reduce multi idol worship down to one of those idols and introduce a strict conservative set of rules for people to submit to.

Had it not been for the blood soaked Ridda Wars immediately following Muhammad's death, Islam nearly died a death in the Peninsula anyway.

I love the interesting history of Islamic dynasties. Always have, but looking closer kind of dispells Arabesque myths. Advancing on Vienna in 1683 were largely ethnic Bulgarians, Bosnians and others. Mamlukes were a warrior class largely created out of stolen boys from warrior culture Caucasus. Yet more example of how Islamic Dynasties largely utilised / tweeked things that existed, rather than being true innovators from "Islam's" inherent genius.

Back to the original topic, my thought is how on earth Slovakia is going to impliment this, because......well, people can lie for the purpose of entry.

Yes, of course there's a hell of a difference between metropoles and rather rural areas. Of course Islamic dynasties built up on what they found, at least they didn't destroy everything. Damascus is not the Bedouine desert.

There's also these various Islamic confessions like Suni and Shia, so you can't say there is one Islam.

Syria is a tragic case. It was actually a multicultural tolerant country once, now all kinds of refugees are coming from there. Since most refugees will come without any passport, I really doubt there's any way to select them by religion. What about Druzes? Would they be allowed into Slovakia?

And what is this all for when everybody knows that most refugees come to Slovakia only for transit?

[micmichd]

You

You go Slovakia and da hell with politically correct immigration policies, this Is your country, the country

that your fathers and forefathers fought, sweated and bled to make it what it is today...

I wish more country around the world would have done the same....

Thanks for being honest, we are enemies.

My father fought for Nazi Germany, my mother was a refugee from the Nazis, and I refused all Nazi heritage in the 1960's. If a NATO officer would put a gun into my hands, I would shoot him.

My heart is with Asians, no matter what religion. But in case of a successful religious division (which is obviously intended by Slovakian government) I would fight the "Christians"

West, South or East/Southeast Asians? Big difference in religion, culture & politics between these 3 areas.

Actually all 3 areas, because those were the regions where I was respected by the people even if I did not agree with them on everything.

First of all, Thailand.

Followed by the neighbouring Buddhist countries, Nepal and India.

Edited August 20, 2015 by micmichd

[HeijoshinCool]

There are bumper stickers in the US that read, Celebrate Diversity.

First, it is a lie, an impossibility, due to the basic inherent nature of all human beings.

Second, it is typically on the bumpers of cars owned by people who demand everyone else in the world not only accept their beliefs and practices, but approve of them.

"Diversity" is meant to be enjoyed while traveling. At home (just look at the root meanings), diversity divides.

Look to nature; Birds of a feather.

[2alex4alex]

Good on you Slovakia, have the balls to say what many other countries don't have the balls to say, a start is a start, I don't think Muslims fit in anywhere these days, only in other Muslim countries that have no problems, why not ask them to take them, why would the want infidels to home them, they hate them

Again the usual rubbish from you.

I do have a muslim in my home, she does eat bacon, she does drink alcohol. The only trouble she has ever had was in Australia when a couple of (ex) friends, after too many beers decided to give her grief because of her religion.

I feel a lot safer and welcomed in her country than she does in my country. My family even warned me before we went to Australia for her to keep a low profile because of the bigotry and violence given to muslims who have done nothing.

It is sad when I see the growing amount of abuse filmed in Oz from bigots abusing foreigners for simply sitting in public transport. More than sad, its disgraceful. But thats what Oz has become and one reason I will not return.

So she is not a muslim!

[Lissos]

I do have a muslim in my home, she does eat bacon, she does drink alcohol. The only trouble she has ever had was in Australia when a couple of (ex) friends, after too many beers decided to give her grief because of her religion.

I feel a lot safer and welcomed in her country than she does in my country. My family even warned me before we went to Australia for her to keep a low profile because of the bigotry and violence given to muslims who have done nothing.

Well yes, I could never stand by and allow someone to be verbally (or otherwise) abused in the west just for 'being' a Muslim. If said Muslim is drinking alcohol and eating pork though, it becomes questionable to me if their life is so different from Kuffar for thugs to abuse her for being different.

As my other posts suggests, plenty who claim to be Muslims are playing games, cherry picking.

I currently spend about two hours a day with someone who claims to be a Muslim, a beardless heavily tatooed, vest and shorts wearing surfer dude who chain smokes, loves Schwarzenegger action movies, didn't fast at all during Ramadhan, drinks alcohol and eats pork.

Each time he fesses up about each new Haram thing he does that I didn't know about, it is a source of great hilarity between us. Everyone likes this kind of pretender, easygoing, has many Kuffar as friends, cherry picks bits and pieces that benefit him - leaves the rest of it on the plate, uneaten. He oggles all the ladies while keeping his own wife hidden in the backroom.

I've also met the lovely but tortured kind of Muslims who are far more healthy in lifestyle, conservative but unable to reconcile the desire to want to be friends with the doctrinal dictate that Kuffar are to avoided.

I've also met the henna bearded tribals who glance at you like shaytan entered the room, to whom a nod is required in order to get a simple nod back in order to feel consoled that you are not a dead man walking.

It is this sheer variety of 'people' out there which explains why for me it has not been about Muslim 'people'. I've spent a huge amount of time with Muslims in various parts of the Muslim world to know the variety out there.

For me, it is all about Islam the cult/faith whatever and how it sees itself and views us, the non subscribing Kuffar. It makes for grim reading, as does the life deeds of its messenger and what happened following his death.

Unobserved / partly observed Islam is the bulk, but Islam is such that it cannot get away from its roots because it views itself as 'perfect' as it is, beyond amendment. That is something every Muslim is expected to believe.

That means that a wishy washy observer today only has to have something change in their life for them to then find support and radical instructions in the very same doctrine he or she mostly ignores, or is unaware of, today.

Slovakia will be looking at Islam and what it means / expects in Kuffar lands rather than the wide variety of Muslim character types out the there.

[a99az]

Yes well done wish the rest of Europe would do the same. As for the ones already in put them on old ships and tell them to go and not return sure Saudi will take them in.

[Steely Dan]

A number of countries are prioritising Syrian Christians for asylum / resettlement.

Sometimes it's forgotten the Alawite's kicked off the truly evil civil war by killing peaceful Arab Spring demonstrators. Over the years Alawites have tortured and killed thousands held in detention who oppose their dictatorship. Syrian Christians have for years supported the unbelievably cruel Alawite dictatorship, Syrian Christians are members of Assad's armed forces & government. One hopes that any Christian Syrians, along with their Muslim counterparts, are subject to vigorous vetting.

The Arab spring protesters were in large part Islamists, just as in Egypt, the Christians had little choice but side with Assad or be religiously cleansed themselves, which is exactly how it turned out in Iraq.

Regarding Slovakia, their northern neighbor and former compatriots the Czech Republic had its own anti-Islam protests recently where dummies of women being stoned to death were left in a few public places. Let's face it nobody wants Muslim demands , violence and general trouble making any more than they want bubonic plague. There may be many Muslims who want to fit in, but collectively Islam has worn out its welcome. I suspect Slovakia will be the first of many to attempt to save itself.

http://www.praguemonitor.com/2015/08/13/statues-stoned-women-placed-prague-protest-against-islam

Edited August 20, 2015 by Steely Dan

[micmichd]

Good on you Slovakia, have the balls to say what many other countries don't have the balls to say, a start is a start, I don't think Muslims fit in anywhere these days, only in other Muslim countries that have no problems, why not ask them to take them, why would the want infidels to home them, they hate them

Again the usual rubbish from you.

I do have a muslim in my home, she does eat bacon, she does drink alcohol. The only trouble she has ever had was in Australia when a couple of (ex) friends, after too many beers decided to give her grief because of her religion.

I feel a lot safer and welcomed in her country than she does in my country. My family even warned me before we went to Australia for her to keep a low profile because of the bigotry and violence given to muslims who have done nothing.

It is sad when I see the growing amount of abuse filmed in Oz from bigots abusing foreigners for simply sitting in public transport. More than sad, its disgraceful. But thats what Oz has become and one reason I will not return.

So she is not a muslim!

Please don't be silly, not all Muslims are fundamentalists.

[Steely Dan]

But Mr Metik denied the move was discriminatory and said it was intended to ensure community cohesion.

Indeed better to ensure community cohesion this way than hushing up news of soaring immigrant crime or denying freedom of speech to the indigenous population.

[Linky]

Good on you Slovakia, have the balls to say what many other countries don't have the balls to say, a start is a start, I don't think Muslims fit in anywhere these days, only in other Muslim countries that have no problems, why not ask them to take them, why would the want infidels to home them, they hate them

Again the usual rubbish from you.

I do have a muslim in my home, she does eat bacon, she does drink alcohol. The only trouble she has ever had was in Australia when a couple of (ex) friends, after too many beers decided to give her grief because of her religion.

I feel a lot safer and welcomed in her country than she does in my country. My family even warned me before we went to Australia for her to keep a low profile because of the bigotry and violence given to muslims who have done nothing.

It is sad when I see the growing amount of abuse filmed in Oz from bigots abusing foreigners for simply sitting in public transport. More than sad, its disgraceful. But thats what Oz has become and one reason I will not return.

I am sure Oz is heartbroken that you won't return. You make it sound as if you have a pet in your home they way you describe the "muslim in your home."

What makes you think I care what anyone in Oz thinks of me leaving.

I cant help if you have comprehension problems either. Perhaps further education for you is in order if you have issues.

[Linky]

Good on you Slovakia, have the balls to say what many other countries don't have the balls to say, a start is a start, I don't think Muslims fit in anywhere these days, only in other Muslim countries that have no problems, why not ask them to take them, why would the want infidels to home them, they hate them

Again the usual rubbish from you.

I do have a muslim in my home, she does eat bacon, she does drink alcohol. The only trouble she has ever had was in Australia when a couple of (ex) friends, after too many beers decided to give her grief because of her religion.

I feel a lot safer and welcomed in her country than she does in my country. My family even warned me before we went to Australia for her to keep a low profile because of the bigotry and violence given to muslims who have done nothing.

It is sad when I see the growing amount of abuse filmed in Oz from bigots abusing foreigners for simply sitting in public transport. More than sad, its disgraceful. But thats what Oz has become and one reason I will not return.

So she is not a muslim!

Please don't be silly, not all Muslims are fundamentalists.

Exactly right. I am catholic, havent been to mass in 30 years, have sex before marriage, swear, etc. But I'm still catholic.

[Bwanatickey]

To update you from the ground, My U.K neighbourhood is flooded with cars displaying the EU number plate SK

Thanks to Britain's generous welfare handouts the Slovakians have got rid of their Roma, who have relocated to the U.K.

Amazing that a small country in the EU can get away with this, but cowardly Brits take it, and are helpless.

It feels like I live in a Roma neighbourhood than in England.

[simple1]

A number of countries are prioritising Syrian Christians for asylum / resettlement.

Sometimes it's forgotten the Alawite's kicked off the truly evil civil war by killing peaceful Arab Spring demonstrators. Over the years Alawites have tortured and killed thousands held in detention who oppose their dictatorship. Syrian Christians have for years supported the unbelievably cruel Alawite dictatorship, Syrian Christians are members of Assad's armed forces & government. One hopes that any Christian Syrians, along with their Muslim counterparts, are subject to vigorous vetting.

The Arab spring protesters were in large part Islamists, just as in Egypt, the Christians had little choice but side with Assad or be religiously cleansed themselves, which is exactly how it turned out in Iraq.

Regarding Slovakia, their northern neighbor and former compatriots the Czech Republic had its own anti-Islam protests recently where dummies of women being stoned to death were left in a few public places. Let's face it nobody wants Muslim demands , violence and general trouble making any more than they want bubonic plague. There may be many Muslims who want to fit in, but collectively Islam has worn out its welcome. I suspect Slovakia will be the first of many to attempt to save itself.

http://www.praguemonitor.com/2015/08/13/statues-stoned-women-placed-prague-protest-against-islam

Just maybe the Islamist movements would not have the traction they have today if the dictatorships (in many cases supported by outside powers for regional self interest power plays) were not so corrupt & brutal.

To copy a phrase you could say the Arab Spring uprisings were originally "intifadas against tyranny", but usurped by Islamists. Indeed in the beginning some Syrian Christians joined the FSA in revolt against the brutal suppression of the Assad dictatorship.

Edited August 20, 2015 by simple1

[Credo]

I think people need to remember that immigration laws are by nature discriminatory. Most countries want the best and brightest or the most employable. Many countries discriminate based on all types of factors, including age.

Immigration laws are meant to strengthen a country, not weaken it.

I don't know that I would agree on a blanket exclusion of a religious group, but the rights that one get inside a country do not always extend to those who are not yet in the country.

[Steely Dan]

A number of countries are prioritising Syrian Christians for asylum / resettlement.

Sometimes it's forgotten the Alawite's kicked off the truly evil civil war by killing peaceful Arab Spring demonstrators. Over the years Alawites have tortured and killed thousands held in detention who oppose their dictatorship. Syrian Christians have for years supported the unbelievably cruel Alawite dictatorship, Syrian Christians are members of Assad's armed forces & government. One hopes that any Christian Syrians, along with their Muslim counterparts, are subject to vigorous vetting.

The Arab spring protesters were in large part Islamists, just as in Egypt, the Christians had little choice but side with Assad or be religiously cleansed themselves, which is exactly how it turned out in Iraq.

Regarding Slovakia, their northern neighbor and former compatriots the Czech Republic had its own anti-Islam protests recently where dummies of women being stoned to death were left in a few public places. Let's face it nobody wants Muslim demands , violence and general trouble making any more than they want bubonic plague. There may be many Muslims who want to fit in, but collectively Islam has worn out its welcome. I suspect Slovakia will be the first of many to attempt to save itself.

http://www.praguemonitor.com/2015/08/13/statues-stoned-women-placed-prague-protest-against-islam

Just maybe the Islamist movements would not have the traction they have today if the dictatorships (in many cases supported by outside powers for regional self interest power plays) were not so corrupt & brutal.

To copy a phrase you could say the Arab Spring uprisings were originally "intifadas against tyranny", but usurped by Islamists. Indeed in the beginning some Syrian Christians joined the FSA in revolt against the brutal suppression of the Assad dictatorship.

I agree with all of that, but would add that the Islamism that got out of the bag with the Arab spring is as old as Islam itself.

The Slovakians could and maybe should have made the distinction between Muslims and Islam. I'm sure there are many genuine Muslim refugees who would love to leave the baggage they were born with behind and make a completely new start.

[geriatrickid]

Unfortunately, Slovakia has a long history of religious intolerance. It had been a region dominated by the Roman Catholic church and its teachings reflected the doctrine of the faith. The persecution of jews was well known, and the persecution of protestants was severe up until the mid 1800's. There was a period from the mid 1500's to 1600's when it was open season on Lutherans, Calvinists and Baptists with church seizures, burning at the stake, and wholesale slaughter.

Things seemed to have eased up after WWII, but that was primarily due to the country having been transformed into a homogeneous state, first by the Nazis and then by the Russians. The legacy is one of intolerance and of hate, Today it is directed at the Roma and LGBT people. And now , in need of a new group to hate, "muslims" are tacked on.

Don't be gullible and assume this is about protecting local culture or preventing social upheaval. This is all about pandering to the nationalists and haters. There are no jews to persecute and no one cares about protestants and their interpretation of the bible. However, muslims are an easy target.

[Lissos]

Just maybe the Islamist movements would not have the traction they have today if the dictatorships (in many cases supported by outside powers for regional self interest power plays) were not so corrupt & brutal.

.

On the other hand, just maybe these nations would have fallen into Islamic states decades ago if it hadn't been for these strong men? I do know that the security apparatus in British controlled Egypt was continued without a break by the new Governments. What it became, was the Mukhabarat of such nations, and during British controlled Egypt the staff spent a lot of time monitoring, arresting, executing Islamists trying to gain power. Egyptians who took over, saw how effective this was at keeping Islamists at bay.

Please don't be silly, not all Muslims are fundamentalists.

I'd phrase this another way. Not all people qualify to be called Muslims.

Islam by its very name, didn't accept wishy washy. It IS fundamental.

"Do, or do not. There is no try", as Yoda said.

Partial submission is not submission. Islam is submission.

Either you are a Muslim (submitted) or you are pretending.

That many cannot submit, shows their doubt about its veracity.

Exactly right. I am catholic, havent been to mass in 30 years, have sex before marriage, swear, etc. But I'm still catholic.

I was raised Catholic (was even an altar Boy wearing a hooded monk habit)

But I haven't attended mass since 13 or so and core aspects of it I simply don't subscribe to so I certainly wouldn't pretend that I'm a Catholic.

It played a part in family and family events, but that doesn't mean that I can continue to claim i'm Catholic and I say the same for millions of people out there claiming to be Muslims. They insist they are, but largely out of family tradition and reference point identity, a world away from Islam.

[Rimmer]

A flame has been removed

[ABCer]

Lissos <quote> "Either you are a Muslim (submitted) or you are pretending.

That many cannot submit, shows their doubt about its veracity."

Another attempt to say "good muslims" or "bad muslims". The fact is - one day a demand will be made on them to define their position. Depending on their response they will be treated like infidels - and they will be first!

This does not make these "good muslims" our allies.

geriatrickid <quote> " Unfortunately, Slovakia has a long history of religious intolerance...

And now , in need of a new group to hate, "Muslims" are tacked on...."

So was historically every other country in the World.

Most countries need such a group today and they usually find them.

Steely Dan <quote> " Islamism that got out of the bag with the Arab spring is as old as Islam itself.

... the distinction between Muslims and Islam."

True, it is that old. And its methods, aims and nature did not change. Looking for distinction between Muslims and Islam? Hopeless!

Or maybe your sore conscience is looking for "good Muslims among the bad ones"?

micmichd <quote> " Thanks for being honest, we are enemies.

My father fought for Nazi Germany, my mother was a refugee from the Nazis, and I refused all Nazi heritage in the 1960's...

Most ME countries are Muslim countries, so it's their home - and not the home of someone who owns the technology for digging the ground...

Falling back to crusade attitudes is certainly no progress at all..."

Responding to your very conflicting statements is not pleasurable:

(1) you can not argue but you are happy to fight;

(2) why so late? Nazis were defeated in 1945;

(3) you obviously kept some of your heritage judging by this remark;

(4) the problem is not our lack of progress but theirs.

Now, if the NATO officer hands you in a gun - shoot me first and him later.

[micmichd]

I do have a muslim in my home, she does eat bacon, she does drink alcohol. The only trouble she has ever had was in Australia when a couple of (ex) friends, after too many beers decided to give her grief because of her religion.

I feel a lot safer and welcomed in her country than she does in my country. My family even warned me before we went to Australia for her to keep a low profile because of the bigotry and violence given to muslims who have done nothing.

Well yes, I could never stand by and allow someone to be verbally (or otherwise) abused in the west just for 'being' a Muslim. If said Muslim is drinking alcohol and eating pork though, it becomes questionable to me if their life is so different from Kuffar for thugs to abuse her for being different.

As my other posts suggests, plenty who claim to be Muslims are playing games, cherry picking.

I currently spend about two hours a day with someone who claims to be a Muslim, a beardless heavily tatooed, vest and shorts wearing surfer dude who chain smokes, loves Schwarzenegger action movies, didn't fast at all during Ramadhan, drinks alcohol and eats pork.

Each time he fesses up about each new Haram thing he does that I didn't know about, it is a source of great hilarity between us. Everyone likes this kind of pretender, easygoing, has many Kuffar as friends, cherry picks bits and pieces that benefit him - leaves the rest of it on the plate, uneaten. He oggles all the ladies while keeping his own wife hidden in the backroom.

I've also met the lovely but tortured kind of Muslims who are far more healthy in lifestyle, conservative but unable to reconcile the desire to want to be friends with the doctrinal dictate that Kuffar are to avoided.

I've also met the henna bearded tribals who glance at you like shaytan entered the room, to whom a nod is required in order to get a simple nod back in order to feel consoled that you are not a dead man walking.

It is this sheer variety of 'people' out there which explains why for me it has not been about Muslim 'people'. I've spent a huge amount of time with Muslims in various parts of the Muslim world to know the variety out there.

For me, it is all about Islam the cult/faith whatever and how it sees itself and views us, the non subscribing Kuffar. It makes for grim reading, as does the life deeds of its messenger and what happened following his death.

Unobserved / partly observed Islam is the bulk, but Islam is such that it cannot get away from its roots because it views itself as 'perfect' as it is, beyond amendment. That is something every Muslim is expected to believe.

That means that a wishy washy observer today only has to have something change in their life for them to then find support and radical instructions in the very same doctrine he or she mostly ignores, or is unaware of, today.

Slovakia will be looking at Islam and what it means / expects in Kuffar lands rather than the wide variety of Muslim character types out the there.

So, there's all various types of Muslims. Funny enough, you'll find most types among Christians, too. The difference between Christians and Islam isn't that big after all. Maybe that's a reason why they hate each other so desperately.

Slovakia is in a bad situation.

Some countries built a "Fortress Europe", with Germany in the middle, and left the dirty job of selecting, refusing or killing refugees to the margin countries. Many saw this coming, there were all kinds of warnings about this, but countries like Germany still pushed for an extension of European borders.

Refugees from Arab countries used to cross the Mediterranean Sea. Due to navy and concentration camp islands like Lampedusa this is not a safe way anymore. So now Syrian refugees come overland, eg via Slovakia.

It's not fair to leave the selection to a country where most of the refugees don't want to stay anyway. If they are heading for Germany, then the Germans should decide - regardless of any Schengen contracts.

And please don't question too much about religion if you really believe that Muslims would even deny their religion to get asylum. In Germany the question for religion might violate the constituton (Article 3 GG)

Edited August 21, 2015 by micmichd

[samran]

Just maybe the Islamist movements would not have the traction they have today if the dictatorships (in many cases supported by outside powers for regional self interest power plays) were not so corrupt & brutal.

.

On the other hand, just maybe these nations would have fallen into Islamic states decades ago if it hadn't been for these strong men? I do know that the security apparatus in British controlled Egypt was continued without a break by the new Governments. What it became, was the Mukhabarat of such nations, and during British controlled Egypt the staff spent a lot of time monitoring, arresting, executing Islamists trying to gain power. Egyptians who took over, saw how effective this was at keeping Islamists at bay.

Please don't be silly, not all Muslims are fundamentalists.

I'd phrase this another way. Not all people qualify to be called Muslims.

Islam by its very name, didn't accept wishy washy. It IS fundamental.

"Do, or do not. There is no try", as Yoda said.

Partial submission is not submission. Islam is submission.

Either you are a Muslim (submitted) or you are pretending.

That many cannot submit, shows their doubt about its veracity.

Exactly right. I am catholic, havent been to mass in 30 years, have sex before marriage, swear, etc. But I'm still catholic.

I was raised Catholic (was even an altar Boy wearing a hooded monk habit)

But I haven't attended mass since 13 or so and core aspects of it I simply don't subscribe to so I certainly wouldn't pretend that I'm a Catholic.

It played a part in family and family events, but that doesn't mean that I can continue to claim i'm Catholic and I say the same for millions of people out there claiming to be Muslims. They insist they are, but largely out of family tradition and reference point identity, a world away from Islam.

Using your high threshold then you'd be able to count on one hand 'real' catholics or muslims. Human nature being what it is, most of ISIS will fall foul of what is defined as needed to be pure, as they'd probably mostly be cherry picking the bits of the relgion they like best, no matter how awful those bits are in this case.

Then you are back to what should be. Offering assistance to those in need. People. &lt;deleted&gt; and criminals excluded.

Edited August 21, 2015 by samran

[micmichd]

Lissos <quote> "Either you are a Muslim (submitted) or you are pretending.

That many cannot submit, shows their doubt about its veracity."

Another attempt to say "good muslims" or "bad muslims". The fact is - one day a demand will be made on them to define their position. Depending on their response they will be treated like infidels - and they will be first!

This does not make these "good muslims" our allies.

geriatrickid <quote> " Unfortunately, Slovakia has a long history of religious intolerance...

And now , in need of a new group to hate, "Muslims" are tacked on...."

So was historically every other country in the World.

Most countries need such a group today and they usually find them.

Steely Dan <quote> " Islamism that got out of the bag with the Arab spring is as old as Islam itself.

... the distinction between Muslims and Islam."

True, it is that old. And its methods, aims and nature did not change. Looking for distinction between Muslims and Islam? Hopeless!

Or maybe your sore conscience is looking for "good Muslims among the bad ones"?

micmichd <quote> " Thanks for being honest, we are enemies.

My father fought for Nazi Germany, my mother was a refugee from the Nazis, and I refused all Nazi heritage in the 1960's...

Most ME countries are Muslim countries, so it's their home - and not the home of someone who owns the technology for digging the ground...

Falling back to crusade attitudes is certainly no progress at all..."

Responding to your very conflicting statements is not pleasurable:

(1) you can not argue but you are happy to fight;

(2) why so late? Nazis were defeated in 1945;

(3) you obviously kept some of your heritage judging by this remark;

(4) the problem is not our lack of progress but theirs.

Now, if the NATO officer hands you in a gun - shoot me first and him later.

Trying to answer.

(1) My argument is I would defend the ones that I love - my gf and her family. Where did I say that I'm happy to fight?

(2) I was born in 1948, tye Nazis were already defeated.

(3) I refused to keep my Nazi heritage in 1979, and sent it all back. I only asked my mother (a refugee from Nazis and Soviets) for a diary.

After the 3rd time I lost my home and all property in Germany (by a fire blast in 1992), I started a new career. All I had in Germany before I finally emigrated was from my own labour. No heritage whatsoever.

(4) You refer to Muslims? There's something they call Internet today.

The question with the gun is outdated in times of cyber wars, you can keep the guns to yourself.

What makes you so sure that I'm a real person and not only a programmed robot?

Wanna shoot a virtual ticking time bomb? Good luck

[micmichd]

Lissos <quote> "Either you are a Muslim (submitted) or you are pretending.

That many cannot submit, shows their doubt about its veracity."

Another attempt to say "good muslims" or "bad muslims". The fact is - one day a demand will be made on them to define their position. Depending on their response they will be treated like infidels - and they will be first!

This does not make these "good muslims" our allies.

geriatrickid <quote> " Unfortunately, Slovakia has a long history of religious intolerance...

And now , in need of a new group to hate, "Muslims" are tacked on...."

So was historically every other country in the World.

Most countries need such a group today and they usually find them.

Steely Dan <quote> " Islamism that got out of the bag with the Arab spring is as old as Islam itself.

... the distinction between Muslims and Islam."

True, it is that old. And its methods, aims and nature did not change. Looking for distinction between Muslims and Islam? Hopeless!

Or maybe your sore conscience is looking for "good Muslims among the bad ones"?

micmichd <quote> " Thanks for being honest, we are enemies.

My father fought for Nazi Germany, my mother was a refugee from the Nazis, and I refused all Nazi heritage in the 1960's...

Most ME countries are Muslim countries, so it's their home - and not the home of someone who owns the technology for digging the ground...

Falling back to crusade attitudes is certainly no progress at all..."

Responding to your very conflicting statements is not pleasurable:

(1) you can not argue but you are happy to fight;

(2) why so late? Nazis were defeated in 1945;

(3) you obviously kept some of your heritage judging by this remark;

(4) the problem is not our lack of progress but theirs.

Now, if the NATO officer hands you in a gun - shoot me first and him later.

Trying to answer.

(1) My argument is I would defend the ones that I love - my gf and her family. Where did I say that I'm happy to fight?

(2) I was born in 1948, tye Nazis were already defeated.

(3) I refused to keep my Nazi heritage in 1979, and sent it all back. I only asked my mother (a refugee from Nazis and Soviets) for a diary.

After the 3rd time I lost my home and all property in Germany (by a fire blast in 1992), I started a new career. All I had in Germany before I finally emigrated was from my own labour. No heritage whatsoever.

(4) You refer to Muslims? There's something they call Internet today.

The question with the gun is outdated in times of cyber wars, you can keep the guns to yourself.

What makes you so sure that I'm a real person and not only a programmed robot?

Wanna shoot a virtual ticking time bomb? Good luck

PS. Why should I shoot a soldier first and the NATO officer later?

Better shoot the officer, and drink a beer with the soldier

[Steely Dan]

Lissos <quote> "Either you are a Muslim (submitted) or you are pretending.

That many cannot submit, shows their doubt about its veracity."

Another attempt to say "good muslims" or "bad muslims". The fact is - one day a demand will be made on them to define their position. Depending on their response they will be treated like infidels - and they will be first!

This does not make these "good muslims" our allies.

geriatrickid <quote> " Unfortunately, Slovakia has a long history of religious intolerance...

And now , in need of a new group to hate, "Muslims" are tacked on...."

So was historically every other country in the World.

Most countries need such a group today and they usually find them.

Steely Dan <quote> " Islamism that got out of the bag with the Arab spring is as old as Islam itself.

... the distinction between Muslims and Islam."

True, it is that old. And its methods, aims and nature did not change. Looking for distinction between Muslims and Islam? Hopeless!

Or maybe your sore conscience is looking for "good Muslims among the bad ones"?

micmichd <quote> " Thanks for being honest, we are enemies.

My father fought for Nazi Germany, my mother was a refugee from the Nazis, and I refused all Nazi heritage in the 1960's...

Most ME countries are Muslim countries, so it's their home - and not the home of someone who owns the technology for digging the ground...

Falling back to crusade attitudes is certainly no progress at all..."

Responding to your very conflicting statements is not pleasurable:

(1) you can not argue but you are happy to fight;

(2) why so late? Nazis were defeated in 1945;

(3) you obviously kept some of your heritage judging by this remark;

(4) the problem is not our lack of progress but theirs.

Now, if the NATO officer hands you in a gun - shoot me first and him later.

Nope, I agree with your basic premise that Islam and democracy are completely incompatible. The Muslims to whom I'm referring are the likes of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, or those who would love to leave Islam behind. The call to service of the Umma would be easier for these to ignore if none of those who subscribed to it were let in in the first place. On a practical level, no Mosques, no Sharia, no Halal, no religious education would sort out the wheat from the chaff, but those who uphold the universal declaration of human rights, which Islam rejects would never allow it.

I expect such internationalists to lean heavily on Slovakia in the very near future for fear of common sense spreading.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Steely Dan

[Steely Dan]

Unfortunately, Slovakia has a long history of religious intolerance. It had been a region dominated by the Roman Catholic church and its teachings reflected the doctrine of the faith. The persecution of jews was well known, and the persecution of protestants was severe up until the mid 1800's. There was a period from the mid 1500's to 1600's when it was open season on Lutherans, Calvinists and Baptists with church seizures, burning at the stake, and wholesale slaughter.

Things seemed to have eased up after WWII, but that was primarily due to the country having been transformed into a homogeneous state, first by the Nazis and then by the Russians. The legacy is one of intolerance and of hate, Today it is directed at the Roma and LGBT people. And now , in need of a new group to hate, "muslims" are tacked on.

Don't be gullible and assume this is about protecting local culture or preventing social upheaval. This is all about pandering to the nationalists and haters. There are no jews to persecute and no one cares about protestants and their interpretation of the bible. However, muslims are an easy target.

Historically you are correct about Slovakian intolerance, but it does not necessarily follow that Islam is the same harmless scapegoat as previous persecuted groups, it poses an existential threat to every culture it encounters, proportional to the number of its faithful who have entered.

[Lissos]

So, there's all various types of Muslims.

Islam is Islam, the War and Peace (for subscribers) therein.

Either there is submission to that whole, or there isn't.

Islam was never meant to be a benign, meek, personal opiate.

The difference between Christians and Islam isn't that big after all.

Islam is a gulf apart from Christianity.

It rejects the way Jesus/Isa is viewed in Christianity itself. In other words, it secretly rejects Christianity. It recognises Jesus / Isa in isolation and claims him for themselves, on Islam's terms. It rejects the story of death on the cross, rejects the resurrection. It sees Jesus just as a mere stepping stone to the arrival of Muhammad and of Islam, and sees Christianity as an inferior release like somebody continuing to use Windows 98. Islam sees both Judaism and Christianity as overuled, and the people who follow those as fools.

We've been conned (as I used to be) that Islam respects those as equal. It doesn't. Islam does not believe that the meek inherit the earth. Islam does not believe in equality full stop. It has categories of human beings.

If we are to believe the portrayal of Jesus in Christianity, he did not raise armies, did not raid caravans, did not accept the mass beheading of male opponents, did not preside over the distribution of booty and slaves and did not order the assassination of those who opposed or mocked him. Muhammad, did all of the above and before his death had already begun some incursions into Byzantium and Persia, intending to conquer them outright.

Once this guy gained some power, any 'nice guy' facade evaporated.

Keep that last point in mind as we discuss settlement in Europe.

In the timeline, the Quranic revelations and Life of Muhammad become more and more vicious, not while getting weaker and under pressure but from a position of growing political and military strength, right until his natural death. At no point did he instruct his followers to stand down after winning what the Ummah today tries to play down as defensive wars. Muhammad gave indications in his lifetime that Persia was on his hit list. That expansion and aggression began within two years of his death, after first slaughtering any of the tribes in the Peninsula who wished to move on from the 'union' now that Muhammad was dead. None of this sounds like Jesus to me.

Forgive me for not responding to your other points, as this one alone took so much time.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Lissos

[micmichd]

So, there's all various types of Muslims.

Islam is Islam, the War and Peace (for subscribers) therein.

Either there is submission to that whole, or there isn't.

Islam was never meant to be a benign, meek, personal opiate.

The difference between Christians and Islam isn't that big after all.

Islam is a gulf apart from Christianity.

It rejects the way Jesus/Isa is viewed in Christianity itself. In other words, it secretly rejects Christianity. It recognises Jesus / Isa in isolation and claims him for themselves, on Islam's terms. It rejects the story of death on the cross, rejects the resurrection. It sees Jesus just as a mere stepping stone to the arrival of Muhammad and of Islam, and sees Christianity as an inferior release like somebody continuing to use Windows 98. Islam sees both Judaism and Christianity as overuled, and the people who follow those as fools.

We've been conned (as I used to be) that Islam respects those as equal. It doesn't. Islam does not believe that the meek inherit the earth. Islam does not believe in equality full stop. It has categories of human beings.

If we are to believe the portrayal of Jesus in Christianity, he did not raise armies, did not raid caravans, did not accept the mass beheading of male opponents, did not preside over the distribution of booty and slaves and did not order the assassination of those who opposed or mocked him. Muhammad, did all of the above and before his death had already begun some incursions into Byzantium and Persia, intending to conquer them outright.

Once this guy gained some power, any 'nice guy' facade evaporated.

Keep that last point in mind as we discuss settlement in Europe.

In the timeline, the Quranic revelations and Life of Muhammad become more and more vicious, not while getting weaker and under pressure but from a position of growing political and military strength, right until his natural death. At no point did he instruct his followers to stand down after winning what the Ummah today tries to play down as defensive wars. Muhammad gave indications in his lifetime that Persia was on his hit list. That expansion and aggression began within two years of his death, after first slaughtering any of the tribes in the Peninsula who wished to move on from the 'union' now that Muhammad was dead. None of this sounds like Jesus to me.

Forgive me for not responding to your other points, as this one alone took so much time.

The similarity of Islam and Christianity is the promise of another life after death, preferably in heaven.

I consider the Christian heaven quite boring, I'd prefer the Muslim paradise where you get girls.

In earthly life, Christianity preaches decency for the sheeple while their topdogs are greedy like hell. In Islam you have at least a right to fight.

I made my very personal experiences with the Catholic Church when I came back from Thailand to Germany, and they started a withchhunt against my gf and me. Of course I hate them like hell, with all their sweet talk on their lips and their antisexual racism in their mind. To me the Catholic Church is simply a terroristic organization, nothing else.

[Linky]

Just maybe the Islamist movements would not have the traction they have today if the dictatorships (in many cases supported by outside powers for regional self interest power plays) were not so corrupt & brutal.

.

On the other hand, just maybe these nations would have fallen into Islamic states decades ago if it hadn't been for these strong men? I do know that the security apparatus in British controlled Egypt was continued without a break by the new Governments. What it became, was the Mukhabarat of such nations, and during British controlled Egypt the staff spent a lot of time monitoring, arresting, executing Islamists trying to gain power. Egyptians who took over, saw how effective this was at keeping Islamists at bay.

Please don't be silly, not all Muslims are fundamentalists.

I'd phrase this another way. Not all people qualify to be called Muslims.

Islam by its very name, didn't accept wishy washy. It IS fundamental.

"Do, or do not. There is no try", as Yoda said.

Partial submission is not submission. Islam is submission.

Either you are a Muslim (submitted) or you are pretending.

That many cannot submit, shows their doubt about its veracity.

Exactly right. I am catholic, havent been to mass in 30 years, have sex before marriage, swear, etc. But I'm still catholic.

I was raised Catholic (was even an altar Boy wearing a hooded monk habit)

But I haven't attended mass since 13 or so and core aspects of it I simply don't subscribe to so I certainly wouldn't pretend that I'm a Catholic.

It played a part in family and family events, but that doesn't mean that I can continue to claim i'm Catholic and I say the same for millions of people out there claiming to be Muslims. They insist they are, but largely out of family tradition and reference point identity, a world away from Islam.

I too was an alter boy. You are catholic whether you like it or not. Until you are either excommunicated or convert to another religion. What YOU claim is of no relevance.

The rest of your post about muslim is ill informed and wrong. Because a person does not proscribe to everything in that religion does not mean they are not of that faith.

Basically if you use your hardline view then people will feel backed into a corner and chose to become fundamentalist. If you agree they are muslim even with cherry picking parts of the faith, as most religious people do, then that gives an opening for inclusiveness and understanding.

So why try and be judgmental. Accept people of the faith as they chose it and things will change. Thats what happened with christianity and they moved forward with the times.

Isnt that what we would like?

[Linky]

Unfortunately, Slovakia has a long history of religious intolerance. It had been a region dominated by the Roman Catholic church and its teachings reflected the doctrine of the faith. The persecution of jews was well known, and the persecution of protestants was severe up until the mid 1800's. There was a period from the mid 1500's to 1600's when it was open season on Lutherans, Calvinists and Baptists with church seizures, burning at the stake, and wholesale slaughter.

Things seemed to have eased up after WWII, but that was primarily due to the country having been transformed into a homogeneous state, first by the Nazis and then by the Russians. The legacy is one of intolerance and of hate, Today it is directed at the Roma and LGBT people. And now , in need of a new group to hate, "muslims" are tacked on.

Don't be gullible and assume this is about protecting local culture or preventing social upheaval. This is all about pandering to the nationalists and haters. There are no jews to persecute and no one cares about protestants and their interpretation of the bible. However, muslims are an easy target.

Historically you are correct about Slovakian intolerance, but it does not necessarily follow that Islam is the same harmless scapegoat as previous persecuted groups, it poses an existential threat to every culture it encounters, proportional to the number of its faithful who have entered.

Absolute rubbish. There is only one muslim country that does not allow any other faith to be practiced. There are many muslim countries that are quite free where you can do what you like comparable to western countries.

[JHolmesJr]

This should be a new topic titled "Europe's Disingenuous Immigrants" (but I can't start new topics).

Turns out Macedonia has just fired rubber bullets etc at a huge mob of Syrian immigrants trying to get in.

I found it interesting that these guys call themselves refugees….normally refugees are so grateful to be out of hostile surroundings that they will be content with any place offering safe refuge.

But these leeches only want to go to Germany and Sweden….where they are sure to get nice houses, free medical care and money for doing sweet f'all.

Perhaps the countries that helped create the mess by bombing the shit out of syria should offer their land to refugees….I think arkansas could take a few million and you wouldn't even notice.