urgent advice needed about when to hand over cash for land

[sammygood]

isn't that something you do at the land office to make it official ?

[onni4me]

Ah! Dealing with Thais when it comes to selling or buying land...brings loads of memories. Not happy ones. Seems whenever there is land issue there will be stress, fraud or some try to benefit in not-so-nice way.

Years ago when I was looking for a plot to build on, we went around for months looking suitable place. I found few that looked very nice and prices were not above my reach. The problem was that either there was something wrong with the Chanote or ownership or the plot was owned by several family(?) members. I was asked sometimes cash advance to pay for the paperwork and I simply said that I am okay to pay for that but only after the paperwork has been done and dusted. In other cases the relatives seemed never to come to conclusion what price to sell or even if they wanted to sell or not.

Then I stumbled accidentally to a spot that had 5 Rais for sale and the owner living in Bangkok at the time desperately needed cash so we came to an agreement and met at the land office. Land was divided in two deeds and the other Chanote was been processed at the land register at that time. We made an agreement that the seller signed to have the right to get that paper from the office. Other than that the whole proceedings were quite straight forward.

Actually, coming back to this situation, it is possible to make a binding pre-contract when handing over the deposit. In that agreement the sum and other details are mentioned with a due date so both parties are forced to obey what has been agreed. In case the buyer refuses to pay the full amount at the due date, the seller just keeps the deposit and that's that.

I would strongly advice against paying anything in advance. Your best offer is to meet at the land office with the cash money and hand it over when the papers have been signed. Also, you need a copy of the Chanote to see who is the actual owner/s and check what kind of other - if any - tenures the land has. If this is not happening I would be looking elsewhere.

And when it comes to that, you are looking a place to stay longer and live so pick your choice carefully. Any bad feelings to start with the neighbors is not what you are really looking for. There are plenty of places to choose from and I would probably take my time and do it when I would be there myself. Also, this doing-yourself-attitude could give an advantage regarding your Thai family. I am not trying Thai bashing but in my experience it is better in the long run to show who is in charge. And that I have learned from the Thai males or females that are the bosses of their families. It just isn't the Thai way to allow someone be The Number One. It is either you or someone else. And believe me that if you give up and allow to be that number two, it will cause problems in the long run. I, myself, am not the leader type - at all - but I have learned that it is best to do the things the way I want since it will cause less problems in the future. Any other way will make your head ache one day.

For some reason, perhaps so many tossers being around, Thais consider most Farangs to be weak and try to walk allover us. Funnily enough, I am selling a plot of land (partners name, of course) to a neighbor and the discussion has been very Thai. The last word, however, was mine so when the agreement on the price and everything was done and dusted their eyes turned to me and I was asked whether everything that has been agreed is fine by me and I nodded. I'd like to know how many foreigners in this country get this far in respect...

[janpharma]

Make the exchange at the Land Office, at the same time the Chanotte is transferred, any other arrangement is totally unacceptable and open to serious fraud.

And cashiers cheques are useful for this purpose, if the seller will not accept one you should consider why and perhaps not proceed.

Thanks to all for the fast replies.

Any idea if the bank charge for the cashiers cheque?

About 200 THB...

[Capt Rob]

Ah! Dealing with Thais when it comes to selling or buying land...brings loads of memories. Not happy ones. Seems whenever there is land issue there will be stress, fraud or some try to benefit in not-so-nice way.

Years ago when I was looking for a plot to build on, we went around for months looking suitable place. I found few that looked very nice and prices were not above my reach. The problem was that either there was something wrong with the Chanote or ownership or the plot was owned by several family(?) members. I was asked sometimes cash advance to pay for the paperwork and I simply said that I am okay to pay for that but only after the paperwork has been done and dusted. In other cases the relatives seemed never to come to conclusion what price to sell or even if they wanted to sell or not.

Then I stumbled accidentally to a spot that had 5 Rais for sale and the owner living in Bangkok at the time desperately needed cash so we came to an agreement and met at the land office. Land was divided in two deeds and the other Chanote was been processed at the land register at that time. We made an agreement that the seller signed to have the right to get that paper from the office. Other than that the whole proceedings were quite straight forward.

Actually, coming back to this situation, it is possible to make a binding pre-contract when handing over the deposit. In that agreement the sum and other details are mentioned with a due date so both parties are forced to obey what has been agreed. In case the buyer refuses to pay the full amount at the due date, the seller just keeps the deposit and that's that.

I would strongly advice against paying anything in advance. Your best offer is to meet at the land office with the cash money and hand it over when the papers have been signed. Also, you need a copy of the Chanote to see who is the actual owner/s and check what kind of other - if any - tenures the land has. If this is not happening I would be looking elsewhere.

And when it comes to that, you are looking a place to stay longer and live so pick your choice carefully. Any bad feelings to start with the neighbors is not what you are really looking for. There are plenty of places to choose from and I would probably take my time and do it when I would be there myself. Also, this doing-yourself-attitude could give an advantage regarding your Thai family. I am not trying Thai bashing but in my experience it is better in the long run to show who is in charge. And that I have learned from the Thai males or females that are the bosses of their families. It just isn't the Thai way to allow someone be The Number One. It is either you or someone else. And believe me that if you give up and allow to be that number two, it will cause problems in the long run. I, myself, am not the leader type - at all - but I have learned that it is best to do the things the way I want since it will cause less problems in the future. Any other way will make your head ache one day.

For some reason, perhaps so many tossers being around, Thais consider most Farangs to be weak and try to walk allover us. Funnily enough, I am selling a plot of land (partners name, of course) to a neighbor and the discussion has been very Thai. The last word, however, was mine so when the agreement on the price and everything was done and dusted their eyes turned to me and I was asked whether everything that has been agreed is fine by me and I nodded. I'd like to know how many foreigners in this country get this far in respect...

'Onni4me" has given a useful practical account here which would also be a good proforma to follow.

Elsewhere it has also been suggested that a 'usufruct' also be employed as a useful legal instrument.

I would add one other suggestion - draw up a loan document between the owner to be ( Wife, partner etc ) this can be non interesting bearing for the property amount paid due to you. This covers the possibility of your partner pre-deceasing you and any squabble over NOK in event of no will and/or marriage document. All the above is to help leave you in charge, not to indicate distrust.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Capt Rob

[chilli42]

You have a cashier check made for the balance due.

You give a copy of the check to the seller so they can validate the check.

When all the title transfer paperwork has been signed at the land office you give the cashier check to the seller.

This is the standard transfer process in Thailand.

What the seller is demanding is totally wrong and some sort of scam.

Don't do it.

What he said times 2

[rocketboybkk]

I did the same (cashiers cheque handed over at time of signature and exchange of paperwork), in a lawyers office with lawyers present.

You don't sign the paperwork in a lawyers office. It's done at the land office.

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[seajae]

do it at the land office, we did, wife counted the money out for the lady then the lady signed the chanote and they exchanged them at the counter with the clerk watching, if she already has the cash in her bank you are stuck if she doesnt sign it over or find out she has used the chanote to get a lone once you do. At the land office they will soon tell you if it is clear or not and she cannot refuse to sign it over when she is paid

[irlguy1]

But even if your trust is well placed, there is a big land transfer tax on any land that changes hands in less than five years. So if the land goes into you father-in-law's name, there will be a tax. Then if you want to transfer to your wife in less than five years, expect to pay a big tax. If you leave it in his name until he dies and the land devolves to her the tax is waived. But if he dies with it in his name with no will and she has two brothers, then they will own two-thirds of it.

Food for thought.

How much tax to transfer ?

[swissbie]

But even if your trust is well placed, there is a big land transfer tax on any land that changes hands in less than five years. So if the land goes into you father-in-law's name, there will be a tax. Then if you want to transfer to your wife in less than five years, expect to pay a big tax. If you leave it in his name until he dies and the land devolves to her the tax is waived. But if he dies with it in his name with no will and she has two brothers, then they will own two-thirds of it.

Food for thought.

How much tax to transfer ?

The tax is quiet cheap and depends on the value which the seller declares at the land departement (as in rural areas it's mostly less than the real purchase price because most of the land upcountry is not yet officially determined). And yes, if less than 5 years it's business tax.

[irlguy1]

But even if your trust is well placed, there is a big land transfer tax on any land that changes hands in less than five years. So if the land goes into you father-in-law's name, there will be a tax. Then if you want to transfer to your wife in less than five years, expect to pay a big tax. If you leave it in his name until he dies and the land devolves to her the tax is waived. But if he dies with it in his name with no will and she has two brothers, then they will own two-thirds of it.

Food for thought.

How much tax to transfer ?

The tax is quiet cheap and depends on the value which the seller declares at the land departement (as in rural areas it's mostly less than the real purchase price because most of the land upcountry is not yet officially determined). And yes, if less than 5 years it's business tax.

Even if it's a gift from father to daughter ?

[rocketboybkk]

The land office sets the tax rate.

Many people say the price is less than it actually is as they think they'll save money.

The land dept are no fools

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[irlguy1]

Has anyone any idea how much transfer costs are? It's gonna be bought in her dads name but someone just told us we will have to pay the taxes again when her dad transfers to us. Even if he gifts it to her

[chiang mai]

No disrespect intended but are you sure you should be doing this transaction in the first place, it doesn't sound as though you know the first thing about any part of it!

[irlguy1]

No disrespect intended but are you sure you should be doing this transaction in the first place, it doesn't sound as though you know the first thing about any part of it!

Hence asking here to get the information.

We have also called a Siam Thai lawyer who had no clue as he "never had anyone do this before"

Also called the land office that couldn't tell us what cost to do transfer.

So no offence taken.

Purchase is now on hold.

[slipperylobster]

Chanote will be in your wife's name. You may want a translated copy, before she signs.

[chiang mai]

A good point from earlier that may have been overlooked: at the time of the sale in the LO, take out an usufruct on the property, it will cost you 78 baht and will give you some control, should you ever need it, at a later date, it'll be the best value 78 baht you ever spend.

[PETERTHEEATER]

Presumably your legal wife will have the land plot in her name. If you are non-Thai you will be required to sign a document confirming that the money being used for the purchase is hers.That means both of you need to be present at the Land Office in person.

[irlguy1]

Presumably your legal wife will have the land plot in her name. If you are non-Thai you will be required to sign a document confirming that the money being used for the purchase is hers.That means both of you need to be present at the Land Office in person.

Yes we know all that,

If we were there we would be doing that but we aren't hence her dad was going to do it.

Cheers

[jamestip2013]

d2g is right.. I sold a condominium last month in Cha-am.. Worry free procedure.. I signed the papers and the paper work was checked and confirmed correct. I was I given a cashiers cheque in the land office by the buyer... I then handed over the title deeds.. My condo was sold through a real estate agent who was there with us. At that point I could have left the land office but I stayed and we all left together. I deposited the cashiers cheque into my bank.. I previously opened an account with the same bank as the buyers bank. I could draw on the cheque straight away.. I have heard that a cashiers cheque (bank cheque) can not be stopped unless the payee is a signatory to that action. The main thing prior to entering the land office is to make sure the payee on the cashiers cheque was correctly spelt as if not it can't be deposited into your account. It legally has to be correct letter for letter.. mine was done by giving the buyer a copy of my passport. If its a Thai transaction photocopy your Wife's id card for the buyer so her name is spelt correct...

That seems to be the way hear..no arguments ... exchange in the land office.. NOT NEGOTIABLE ok....NOT BEFORE, NOT AFTER . Cha-am even has a room upstairs where can exchange and count large amounts of cash !!!! Good luck .... Any other way even if you trust the vendor is not acceptable as its a business transaction and keep it that way .. James

[ozyjon]

Did you hear about the rich American guy

who bought a huge block of land in

Bangkok only to find out later he paid for

someones front garden.

If in a hurry == walk away

[Robert24]

Has anyone any idea how much transfer costs are? It's gonna be bought in her dads name but someone just told us we will have to pay the taxes again when her dad transfers to us. Even if he gifts it to her

that's correct. But it isn't much from my recollection. Single digit % from the land value.

[Robert24]

What is rather unusual is that someone has to pay a deposit for a farm or farmland before the transaction takes place and that you loose it if the transaction doesn't go through for some reason. I would not do that but I guess it's too late for this.

[irlguy1]

What is rather unusual is that someone has to pay a deposit for a farm or farmland before the transaction takes place and that you loose it if the transaction doesn't go through for some reason. I would not do that but I guess it's too late for this.

Mate that's the way of the world everywhere not just Thailand.

In Ireland u pay the deposit to secure that nobody else will get something before u do. It basically takes the item or property off sale till u buy it.

It's the same in England and anywhere else I have ever lived.

[irlguy1]

Has anyone any idea how much transfer costs are? It's gonna be bought in her dads name but someone just told us we will have to pay the taxes again when her dad transfers to us. Even if he gifts it to her

that's correct. But it isn't much from my recollection. Single digit % from the land value.

It's actually 3.5 % I found out today.

As the seller her dad (us) would have to pay and as the buyer we would also have to pay.

That's not cheap

[jacko45k]

I did the same (cashiers cheque handed over at time of signature and exchange of paperwork), in a lawyers office with lawyers present.

You don't sign the paperwork in a lawyers office. It's done at the land office.

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In my case it was in reality the transfer of company.

Where a foreigner is involved I thought he would not be necessary at the land office, or even raise eyebrows.

[Robert24]

Has anyone any idea how much transfer costs are? It's gonna be bought in her dads name but someone just told us we will have to pay the taxes again when her dad transfers to us. Even if he gifts it to her

that's correct. But it isn't much from my recollection. Single digit % from the land value.

It's actually 3.5 % I found out today.

As the seller her dad (us) would have to pay and as the buyer we would also have to pay.

That's not cheap

yes but maybe a reason for you to buy it in your wife's name instead of her father's name?

[nithisa78]

ask the lawyer. you have to move it.

[DirtyDan]

I agree with the other posters here that the seller has a good opportunity to scam you - I think you know that too!

Now, how this transaction is being executed!? Let's remove the "family" issue from this little business transaction and look at it strictly in business terms (this is a business transaction after all):

You buying something for someone else. Only, you have to actually buy it for a third person. But the third person has said he would transfer it to your intended recipient. Does that seem normal to you? Why wouldn't the recipient take possession of it directly? What happens if the other person is in a car crash, or has a stroke, or something equally horrible and cannot physically transfer the item - do you trust the third person's next of kin? Do you trust all of their spouses and kids too, that they will do the "right" thing?

I believe you trust your wife, but do you realise that the way this transaction is set up will open your liability to a whole host of other individuals. What if someone in her family is not as trustworthy (and we all have that person in our closets). And trust me, Dirty's lil' brother works in wealth management and has seen it all. Money does strange things to people - not Thai bashing, because there's just as many crooked Westerners that have knocked heads over the strong box.

Take your time. There's lots of land out there. Do this right as you're not only protecting yourself, you're protecting her and your future together.

Edited September 1, 2015 by DirtyDan

[irlguy1]

Has anyone any idea how much transfer costs are? It's gonna be bought in her dads name but someone just told us we will have to pay the taxes again when her dad transfers to us. Even if he gifts it to her

that's correct. But it isn't much from my recollection. Single digit % from the land value.

It's actually 3.5 % I found out today.

As the seller her dad (us) would have to pay and as the buyer we would also have to pay.

That's not cheap

yes but maybe a reason for you to buy it in your wife's name instead of her father's name?

Like I already said, wife is here with me not in Thailand. If she was there we wouldn't have any problems

[irlguy1]

I agree with the other posters here that the seller has a good opportunity to scam you - I think you know that too!

You buying something for someone else. Only, you have to actually buy it for a third person. But the third person has said he would transfer it to your intended recipient. Does that seem normal to you? Why wouldn't the recipient take possession of it directly? What happens if the other person is in a car crash, or has a stroke, or something equally horrible and cannot physically transfer the item - do you trust the third person's next of kin? Do you trust all of their spouses and kids too, that they will do the "right" thing?

.

I don't understand what your talking about mate?

Not buying something for someone else we are buying it for us.

We are not buying it for a third person.

What third person transferring what to who?

We the recipient can't take possession directly as we are not living there yet.

If he is in an accident etc etc then such is life, what if I die tomorrow ???

My wife is his only next of kin so no issue.

Your not making any sense at all.