A screaming bargain...or not...advice needed regarding buying an unfinished house

[blackcab]

Thanks Blackcab and BeachProperty for you informative posts.

Because the property is not a lot of money I was hoping to keep things simple and just meet at the land office and if the deed is transferred, hand over the money. I wanted to keep a Thai lawyer out of it because I don't trust any of them. Whats more, I have searched locally around here and I cant find one anyway which means I would probably have to use one from another province which I am loath to do.

As Beach property has confirmed you can have one person own the land and another own the house. That is why I had a red flag go up in my mind when I saw that that the mother's name was on the deed and the daughter's on the house book. Also, as I stated earlier, the deed is currently held by a loan shark who lent money (150K) to the daughter to build the house.

I have spent a good deal of time in the last few weeks reviewing property prices around here and speaking with local old landed thais hereabouts about price per talang wah for NSSG land and the property at 410KTHB is cheap. However, I do not want to buy someone elses problems.

The daughter is in trouble because she does not make enough money to service the debt on the loan from the loan shark. If the property is not sold, eventually he will get it (and for just 150K, the amount of the original loan). That is why the daughter is in a rush to sell. As with many Thais her money problems are being exacerbated by her lifestyle. She has a worthless Thai boyfriend and the front of their house is littered with empty alcohol bottles and cigarette butts.

So....what do I do to move forward....?

I have reviewed the plans that the daughter submitted to the Tessaban. They are stamped and dated by the Tessaban. The house has been built to plan, HOWEVER, it has not been built in the same location as indicated in the plan. In the plan the house is well away from the property boundaries, however the house has actually been built with one of its roof lines running along the boundary shared with the neigbouse house. The wall under that roofline is about 1.5 metres back from the boundary. This is why I asked the question about when does the Tessaban tick off on the final inspection of the house. Because she has already been issued with a housebook, does that mean that the Tessaban can not come back in the future and ask me to knock down the house because it has been built in a spot not indicated on the submitted drawings?

Although there is a power pole and a place for a meter directly in front of the house the daughter has not yet connected the power and has a long extension lead running over the road to her mothers house. She is broke and cannot afford the 15K deposit. I understand that you have to have a house book when going to the PEA to apply for connection of Electricity, and so want to make sure that my girl, the new incoming owner, will not have any problems getting a house book in her name.

So I still have some questions and if anyone can shed some light that would be greatly appreciated:

• Who owns the house in this case? The mother's name is on the title deed, but the daughter has borrowed money to build the house and the plans submitted to the Tessban and the housebook are in the daughter's name.
• Does the fact that the daughter already has a new housebook mean that the Tessaban has already ticked off on (did a final inspection of the house) and the boundary issue I have listed above can not come back to bite me in the future. I should note here that most of the houses in the area are actually built right on the boundaries of their properties.
• How does my girlfriend (the new incoming buyer) get her name on the housebook.? I really want to know the process so I have some certainty we can get a new housebook, because, without it, we won't be able to get the electricity meter connected by the PEA.
• Currently there is nothing (no leases or interests etc) stamped on the back of the title deed. If the daughter had registered her ownership of the house at the Land Office (as Beach Property advised above) would that interest then be stamped on the back of the title deed?

Thank in advance for anyone who can help.

1. The mother owns the house. As beachproperty said, there is nothing registered on the deed to make it otherwise.

2. I doubt the tessaban will do any further inspection. It's not unusual for the plans to not really match the building in reality. As long as a house book has been issued that is the main thing.

3. Your girlfriend goes to the district office with the daughter of the seller and the seller and it's done that day. Your gf may need a letter of consent (form is supplied by district office) where the head of her last household gives her permission to move out, as well as her old housebook. Check if you need this, because if you do then you can get it in advance and save a trip. Your gf and the seller's daughter will also need new ID cards issued after the changes.

4. Yes it would be because it would affect the deed and any interested party would need to know.

Thanks blackcab for your very helpful input.

My girl is on her parent's house book but they live in Nong Khai province which is literally on the other end of Thailand from here.

• So she would need to get the consent form from the Amphur office here and then send it up to him for his signature? That is problematic as he is currently in hospital with bowel cancer and in a bad way.
• Do they issue the new ID cards at the Amphur office also (and at the same time when you get your new house book)?

So I guess I can move forward as follows:

• Draft a sales contract that includes both the mothers and daughters details and states that the mother is selling the land with the house thereon and the daughter agrees to the sale and has no further right or claim to the house. The contract should also provide that the daughter also provides the original of her housebook and the original of the plans submitted to the Tessaban to my girlfriend.
• Get my girlfriend to check at the Amphur what is required to obtain a new house book. If the form is required as blackcab kindly suggests we will have to send that express post up to Nong Khai and get dad to fill it out on his death bed.
• Then meet at the land office with the mother, daughter, the loan shark, my girl and me. Have the deed transferred into the GFs name and then across the road to the Amphur office to get her the housebook.

Anyone have a word version of a sales contract in English and Thai I can have a copy of?

I think you've got it pretty well covered there. Yes, the ID cards will be issued at the same office - quite often it's the next desk along.

When our company writes sales contracts they are in Thai and they are specific to the property being sold, as every sale is different.

The contracts are normally write basic though and never more than half a page.

[steven100]

'It is her mother's name on the title deed and not hers.'

That's why you cannot buy it ..... move on.

Edited September 18, 2015 by steven100

[JHolmesJr]

'It is her mother's name on the title deed and not hers.'

That's why you cannot buy it ..... move on.

No please....this is a rivetting read....I love stories from thailand veterans.....so much to learn.

[blackcab]

'It is her mother's name on the title deed and not hers.'

That's why you cannot buy it ..... move on.

That's a bit negative. I take it you are not one of life's problem solvers. Many land deals have issues that need solving, because in the main, Thai people don't wake up in the morning and think, "Today is a great day to sell my land".

In my experience Thai people are land mad. They love it. They buy it, and they keep it unless there is a really good reason for them to sell it.

That's either because they are being offered excellent money or they owe money and must sell. Most often it's the latter. And that's where the problem solving starts...

[JHolmesJr]

In my experience Thai people are land mad. They love it. They buy it, and they keep it unless there is a really good reason for them to sell it.

That's either because they are being offered excellent money or they owe money and must sell. Most often it's the latter. And that's where the problem solving starts...

you just described everyone in the world.

[blackcab]

In my experience Thai people are land mad. They love it. They buy it, and they keep it unless there is a really good reason for them to sell it.

That's either because they are being offered excellent money or they owe money and must sell. Most often it's the latter. And that's where the problem solving starts...

you just described everyone in the world.

I don't think so. In the UK people speculate during their lifetime much more rather than buying for generations.

[JHolmesJr]

In my experience Thai people are land mad. They love it. They buy it, and they keep it unless there is a really good reason for them to sell it.

That's either because they are being offered excellent money or they owe money and must sell. Most often it's the latter. And that's where the problem solving starts...

you just described everyone in the world.

I don't think so. In the UK people speculate during their lifetime much more rather than buying for generations.

ok…everyone except refugees.

[donx]

Bulldozer Dawn, have you been in contact with the actual owner? I mean the mother of the woman you thought was the owner. Is she willing to sell the land? And what about the lone shark? Did he/she give the money to the daughter knowing that she didn't own the land?

Edited September 18, 2015 by donx

[Bulldozer Dawn]

Bulldozer Dawn, have you been in contact with the actual owner? I mean the mother of the woman you thought was the owner. Is she willing to sell the land? And what about the lone shark? Did he/she give the money to the daughter knowing that she didn't own the land?

Mother lives in a house across the street from the daughter and agrees to the sale.

Loan shark has already agreed to meet at the land titles office. At first I was concerned that there is a shark involved. I have heard many bar stool stories about them. However, I see no reason for him to have any ill will towards me. He is in a win win situation. If I buy the land he gets all of his money back with an outrageous chunk of tax free interest, if I don't buy the land, somewhere down the track he will try to sell (or force the mother and daughter to sell) to recover his money. Perhaps that is why there is a sense of urgency with the daughter already. No doubt she is already behind with her payments and the loan shark has paid her a visit...

I have finished drafting a MOU and Loan agreement between myself and my girl. A well educated Thai friend of mine has already translated them into Thai. I need to check the translations today.

I will now move on to draft the Usufruct contract between me and my girl.

And the sales contract between the mother and my girl, that will also include:

1. reference to the sale including the land with the house and all other fixtures thereon
2. the details of the daughter and that she agrees with the sales and will hand over possesion of the house and her tabien ban
3. that the mother and daughter will assist my girl wherever required to obtain a new tabien ban for the house
4. that the mother and daughter will pay any outstanding monies owed to the Amphur in respect of the land and house thereon
5. That the contract price includes the house and all fixtures on the land and that the seller must pay all transfer fees, taxes and stamp duty for the sale
6. I will probably put the token amount of 10KTHB as the deposit balance of 400KTHB to be paid upon transfer at the land office

So I will have the following documents signed by my girl and witnessed by two people:

1. MOU stating that me and her want to buy a house, improve the property, then sell it in the future for a profit. Profit is defined as future sales price less (original sales price+money to finish house+money to advertise and sell house+any transfer fees, taxes, and stamp duty on future sale). Profit is then split 50/50 between me and the girl. If no profit from future sale I retain all monies received.
2. Loan agreement stating I have loaned her the money to buy the house in exchange for her granting a life usufruct over the property.
3. Usufruct contract stating the usual stuff in accordance with Sections 1417-1428 of the Thai Civil and Commercial Code.

I will also have a contract for sale of the land and house including the mother, daughter and my girl signed by all parties and witnessed by two Thais

Prior to going to the Land Office I will go to the Amphur and check what documents they require to make a new tabien ban for my girl. If the original of her parent's housebook is required, or a letter (as black cab suggests) from her dad is required, I will get those sent down here EMS. Then armed with all of the above mentioned documents we make an appointment at the Land Office:

1. Loan shark hands over the title deed
2. Title transferred to my girl
3. Mother paid 400K and she pays the loan shark
4. Fill out Memorandum of Usufruct from (the land office form) and show the clerk the signed Usufruct contract between me and the girl (if he asks to see it).
5. Usufruct interest in my name stamped on the back of the title deed
6. Head accross the street to the Amphur office with the mother and daughter
7. Get new tabien ban for my girl, and ask if I can get a yellow book as the Usufructiary.

What could possibly go wrong?

Anyone see and holes in my plan?

[blackcab]

Bulldozer Dawn, have you been in contact with the actual owner? I mean the mother of the woman you thought was the owner. Is she willing to sell the land? And what about the lone shark? Did he/she give the money to the daughter knowing that she didn't own the land?

Mother lives in a house across the street from the daughter and agrees to the sale.

Loan shark has already agreed to meet at the land titles office. At first I was concerned that there is a shark involved. I have heard many bar stool stories about them. However, I see no reason for him to have any ill will towards me. He is in a win win situation. If I buy the land he gets all of his money back with an outrageous chunk of tax free interest, if I don't buy the land, somewhere down the track he will try to sell (or force the mother and daughter to sell) to recover his money. Perhaps that is why there is a sense of urgency with the daughter already. No doubt she is already behind with her payments and the loan shark has paid her a visit...

I have finished drafting a MOU and Loan agreement between myself and my girl. A well educated Thai friend of mine has already translated them into Thai. I need to check the translations today.

I will now move on to draft the Usufruct contract between me and my girl.

And the sales contract between the mother and my girl, that will also include:

• reference to the sale including the land with the house and all other fixtures thereon
• the details of the daughter and that she agrees with the sales and will hand over possesion of the house and her tabien ban
• that the mother and daughter will assist my girl wherever required to obtain a new tabien ban for the house
• that the mother and daughter will pay any outstanding monies owed to the Amphur in respect of the land and house thereon
• That the contract price includes the house and all fixtures on the land and that the seller must pay all transfer fees, taxes and stamp duty for the sale
• I will probably put the token amount of 10KTHB as the deposit balance of 400KTHB to be paid upon transfer at the land office

So I will have the following documents signed by my girl and witnessed by two people:

• MOU stating that me and her want to buy a house, improve the property, then sell it in the future for a profit. Profit is defined as future sales price less (original sales price+money to finish house+money to advertise and sell house+any transfer fees, taxes, and stamp duty on future sale). Profit is then split 50/50 between me and the girl. If no profit from future sale I retain all monies received.
• Loan agreement stating I have loaned her the money to buy the house in exchange for her granting a life usufruct over the property.
• Usufruct contract stating the usual stuff in accordance with Sections 1417-1428 of the Thai Civil and Commercial Code.

I will also have a contract for sale of the land and house including the mother, daughter and my girl signed by all parties and witnessed by two Thais

Prior to going to the Land Office I will go to the Amphur and check what documents they require to make a new tabien ban for my girl. If the original of her parent's housebook is required, or a letter (as black cab suggests) from her dad is required, I will get those sent down here EMS. Then armed with all of the above mentioned documents we make an appointment at the Land Office:

• Loan shark hands over the title deed
• Title transferred to my girl
• Mother paid 400K and she pays the loan shark
• Fill out Memorandum of Usufruct from (the land office form) and show the clerk the signed Usufruct contract between me and the girl (if he asks to see it).
• Usufruct interest in my name stamped on the back of the title deed
• Head accross the street to the Amphur office with the mother and daughter
• Get new tabien ban for my girl, and ask if I can get a yellow book as the Usufructiary.

What could possibly go wrong?

Anyone see and holes in my plan?

A couple of small details: Get a signed copy of the mother and daughter's ID cards with the contract. Also have them sign every page of the contract. Witnesses only need to sign the final page.

Also the taxes/fees are paid to the land office before the sale is registered.

[Bulldozer Dawn]

Thanks again for your input black cab.

1. I will have a signed copy of my girl's ID card attached to the Mou, Loan agreement and Usufruct contract. The documents are drafted to include a line that states ID card attached herewith. I have drafted these documents so that they are only one page in length, but your comment regarding sign every page is appreciated.
2. I will have a signed copy of both the Mother's ID card and the Daughter's ID card, title deed and tabien ban attached to the sales contract. I probably should also include a copy of the important pages of the plan that was submitted to the Amphur prior to building the house?

[blackcab]

That's a good idea.

Don't forget to make it clear in your discussions that you will be taking possession immediately. Get a key with the housebook. On the way back from doing the paperwork change the locks.

First job... consider building a wall to stop the daughter's no good bf taking a shine to your new water pump, etc.

[splitlid]

The only way to have ownership of the house is either register it in your name when you apply for the Tor ror 900. (Build permit in your name also). Or, transfer the house at the land dept. taxes involved. But house can be in your name. Other than that there will always be issues with the ownership especially if you want to sell it on later.

[splitlid]

The only way to have ownership of the house is either register it in your name when you apply for the Tor ror 900. (Build permit in your name also). Or, transfer the house at the land dept. taxes involved. But house can be in your name. Other than that there will always be issues with the ownership especially if you want to sell it on later.

[blackcab]

The only way to have ownership of the house is either register it in your name when you apply for the Tor ror 900. (Build permit in your name also). Or, transfer the house at the land dept. taxes involved. But house can be in your name. Other than that there will always be issues with the ownership especially if you want to sell it on later.

I agree with the first part of what you said, but not the bit about having problems selling the house/land later.

It's common for the construction permit to be in a different name to the land deed, and it has no bearing on the house ownership when the house is sold with a contract as the OP intends to do.

[Bulldozer Dawn]

That's a good idea.

Don't forget to make it clear in your discussions that you will be taking possession immediately. Get a key with the housebook. On the way back from doing the paperwork change the locks.

First job... consider building a wall to stop the daughter's no good bf taking a shine to your new water pump, etc.

I don't think there will be any problem getting the daughter out. The other day she was moving some herbs she had planted over to her mums house.

I have already priced a perimter wall. It will be the very first job after completing the electrics and getting the PEA connection.

With regard to the house. We are not talking about a farang mansion here, so I will not be transferring it into my name.

I will however, as I stated above include both the Mother and daughter as parties and signatories to the contract and state in that contract that the sales price includes both the land and the house upon it.

Surely that is enough.

What is a Tor ror 900 and what does it have to do with my situation?

[ozzieovaseas]

Sheezuz what a rigmorole. And i thought buying property is ones own country was headache enough.

Here: laws against foreign ownership, a bunch of permits/processes/housebook rules you know little about, paperwork you cant read, cant get professional help cause you cant trust

trust em, rules that can change at any time or with any officials slash of a pen.

and if all thats not risk enough, the gf can kick you out on a whim and you've got no recourse whatsoever.

balls of steel man!

[JHolmesJr]

What could possibly go wrong?

Anyone see and holes in my plan?

This is one hell of a soft loanshark….if I was him I would surely have got wind of the low price she was selling at snap it up myself….you are a lucky man.

[ozzieovaseas]

What could possibly go wrong?

Anyone see and holes in my plan?

This is one hell of a soft loanshark.if I was him I would surely have got wind of the low price she was selling at snap it up myself.you are a lucky man.

Exactly what i was thinking,

why wouldnt the loanshark take the property, cancel the girls debt and then sell it himself

and make and extra couple of hundred thousand profit?

Knowing Thais and their greed for money if it was doable theyd do it..doesnt make sense.

[beachproperty]

What could possibly go wrong?

Anyone see and holes in my plan?

This is one hell of a soft loanshark.if I was him I would surely have got wind of the low price she was selling at snap it up myself.you are a lucky man.

Exactly what i was thinking,

why wouldnt the loanshark take the property, cancel the girls debt and then sell it himself

and make and extra couple of hundred thousand profit?

Knowing Thais and their greed for money if it was doable theyd do it..doesnt make sense.

Actually ...it does make sense....loanshark can't do anything until she defaults....apparently that hasn't happened as she is selling to poster to hopefully pay her debt and have a little left over for herself.

good on the OP to find the deal and pull the trigger to buy.

[JHolmesJr]

What could possibly go wrong?

Anyone see and holes in my plan?

This is one hell of a soft loanshark.if I was him I would surely have got wind of the low price she was selling at snap it up myself.you are a lucky man.

Exactly what i was thinking,

why wouldnt the loanshark take the property, cancel the girls debt and then sell it himself

and make and extra couple of hundred thousand profit?

Knowing Thais and their greed for money if it was doable theyd do it..doesnt make sense.

loanshark can't do anything until she defaults....

actually, Im thinking he could….he could offer to attractively lower her debt if she agreed to sell to him for the same price….that is just one scenario….

[beachproperty]

loanshark can't do anything until she defaults....

actually, Im thinking he could….he could offer to attractively lower her debt if she agreed to sell to him for the same price….that is just one scenario….

Well ...maybe...just maybe...He doesn't know what's she's up to...Why would he?

AND if he did....maybe ...just maybe....he makes more money doing what he does...Why tie it up in a real estate project where he makes less of a return on his money?

[Bulldozer Dawn]

loanshark can't do anything until she defaults....

actually, Im thinking he could….he could offer to attractively lower her debt if she agreed to sell to him for the same price….that is just one scenario….

Well ...maybe...just maybe...He doesn't know what's she's up to...Why would he?

AND if he did....maybe ...just maybe....he makes more money doing what he does...Why tie it up in a real estate project where he makes less of a return on his money?

Why would he want to hold 400Kthb worth of dirt when he can lend it out at shark rates.

In any event, you doom and gloomers keep doing what you do. I will spend the next few days to paper this thing and then we will see how we go.

[splitlid]

I agree with the first part of what you said, but not the bit about having problems selling the house/land later.

It's common for the construction permit to be in a different name to the land deed, and it has no bearing on the house ownership when the house is sold with a contract as the OP intends to do.

Yes it is common however, a contract does not legally transfer ownership of a house. It is still registered in the original owners name unless it is changed at the land dept. by registering the house and paying relevant taxes.

[beachproperty]

I agree with the first part of what you said, but not the bit about having problems selling the house/land later.

It's common for the construction permit to be in a different name to the land deed, and it has no bearing on the house ownership when the house is sold with a contract as the OP intends to do.

Yes it is common however, a contract does not legally transfer ownership of a house. It is still registered in the original owners name unless it is changed at the land dept. by registering the house and paying relevant taxes.

Really not sure what your on about....the house was not registered separately to someone different. So...ownership of the house (unless otherwise registered with the land office...which it is NOT) goes with the land. Not sure if you read the thread but OP IS going to the land office to buy the land and house together. Apparently on that same day they are going to sign contracts and tranfer ownership.

[splitlid]

I agree with the first part of what you said, but not the bit about having problems selling the house/land later.

It's common for the construction permit to be in a different name to the land deed, and it has no bearing on the house ownership when the house is sold with a contract as the OP intends to do.

Yes it is common however, a contract does not legally transfer ownership of a house. It is still registered in the original owners name unless it is changed at the land dept. by registering the house and paying relevant taxes.

Really not sure what your on about....the house was not registered separately to someone different. So...ownership of the house (unless otherwise registered with the land office...which it is NOT) goes with the land. Not sure if you read the thread but OP IS going to the land office to buy the land and house together. Apparently on that same day they are going to sign contracts and tranfer ownership.

The house doesn't have to registered at the land office for proof of ownership. Ownership If not registered at the land dept belongs to who's name is on the Tor ror 900

[beachproperty]

I agree with the first part of what you said, but not the bit about having problems selling the house/land later.

It's common for the construction permit to be in a different name to the land deed, and it has no bearing on the house ownership when the house is sold with a contract as the OP intends to do.

Yes it is common however, a contract does not legally transfer ownership of a house. It is still registered in the original owners name unless it is changed at the land dept. by registering the house and paying relevant taxes.

Really not sure what your on about....the house was not registered separately to someone different. So...ownership of the house (unless otherwise registered with the land office...which it is NOT) goes with the land. Not sure if you read the thread but OP IS going to the land office to buy the land and house together. Apparently on that same day they are going to sign contracts and tranfer ownership.

The house doesn't have to registered at the land office for proof of ownership. Ownership If not registered at the land dept belongs to who's name is on the Tor ror 900

Guess that's a non-issue as house and land will be titled in a Thai nationals name (his girlfriend)

Just so we're clear...regarding the house only

"If, when the house is constructed, the building permits and application for the blue book (Tor Ror 900) are in a foreigners name property lawyers consider the title to be the name of the foreigner."http://www.chavalitandpartner.com/publications/AR_249.pdf

House is in the construction process, so building permits already pulled . AND OP has indicated he will do two separate contracts...one for the land (mother) and one for the house (daughter) and then file the same with the land office.

Edited September 19, 2015 by beachproperty

[blackcab]

As standard, the owner of a piece of land owns everything on the land including any buildings - unless a building is listed on the deed as being in separate ownership.

When Thai people file a Tor Ror 900 it is during the process to get a tabien baan. As we know, a tabien baan has nothing to do with house ownership.

When Thai people buy land with buildings on it I can assure you they don't buy the land, pay the taxes and fees and then pay more fees to transfer ownership of any buildings on the land.

[JHolmesJr]

Why would he want to hold 400Kthb worth of dirt when he can lend it out at shark rates.

BY reading the commentary here, I didn't get the impression it was "dirt"…my understanding was that it was a grossly undervalued piece of prime beachfront land.

Anyway, I won't tell the loanshark if you won't.

[Bulldozer Dawn]

Sheezuz what a rigmorole. And i thought buying property is ones own country was headache enough.

Here: laws against foreign ownership, a bunch of permits/processes/housebook rules you know little about, paperwork you cant read, cant get professional help cause you cant trust

trust em, rules that can change at any time or with any officials slash of a pen.

and if all thats not risk enough, the gf can kick you out on a whim and you've got no recourse whatsoever.

balls of steel man!

If it was 4 million baht at risk then I might be more hesitant. But it is 410KTHB and less than 1% of my net worth.

Tell me again why I have balls of steel?