Sin Sot

[Maizefarmer]

I'm interested to know if any husband has requested that his own cluture be respected also, and ask the father of the bride to pay for the wedding?

If not, and you are being "asked" for sin sot, why not?

If the family was living in the USA and the wedding was in the USA the I would ask the brides father to pay for the wedding as that is tradition in the US. But we are living in Thailand and must respect Thai culture.

Pardon my ignorance folks - but as having never been married to a Caucasian/European/ USA girl - is it tradition that the brides parents pay for marrige in Western culture?

I never knew that - if that is the case - but yes, this is Thailand and when in Rome always a good idea to do as the Romans do.

No snappy comments about how/why I should know this - I don't - can some one explain to me.

Tim

[britmaveric]

At the end of the day - do what you are comfy with.

[Rdrokit]

I'm interested to know if any husband has requested that his own cluture be respected also, and ask the father of the bride to pay for the wedding?

If not, and you are being "asked" for sin sot, why not?

If the family was living in the USA and the wedding was in the USA the I would ask the brides father to pay for the wedding as that is tradition in the US. But we are living in Thailand and must respect Thai culture.

Pardon my ignorance folks - but as having never been married to a Caucasian/European/ USA girl - is it tradition that the brides parents pay for marrige in Western culture?

I never knew that - if that is the case - but yes, this is Thailand and when in Rome always a good

idea to do as the Romans do.

No snappy comments about how/why I should know this - I don't - can some one explain to me.

Tim

Yes it is Western tradition that the brides father pays for the wedding. At least the first wedding. If the bride is divorced and not her first wedding then the father does not pay. And Western weddings are not cheap. Having owned a flower shop with the ex in my past life I have seen weddings where the flowers alone cost $20,000 US ($750,000 baht).

rdrokit

Edited September 26, 2006 by Rdrokit

[phibunmike]

At the end of the day - do what you are comfy with.

Well said

[binnsy]

Offer WHAT you can afford and see what happens

[Tomissan]

But, after dozens of replies and advice Im still no clearer on the subject of sin sot.

The first step in marrying a Thai girl is to have someone approach the ladies parents to discuss the "Tong Mun" and "Sin Sod." (note: Sin Sod, not: Sin SOT)

"Tong Mun" which means "gold engagement" is actual 24 karat gold jewelry given to the lady. This is similar to the western engagement ring, which may also be given, but will not be expected.

"Sin Sod" is the marriage price, the word "Sin" means riches, things of value. In the past it might have been farm animals, farm products, land, or some such. Now money is used as the thing of value. "Sod" is the act of storing away, or holding the "Sin". Long ago it could have been keeping the "Sin" if it was a farm animal in a secure fenced area. Now the "Sin" would be likely stored by depositing the money into a bank. The amount will vary due to several factors such as, the social status and wealth of the parents, the education, age, and beauty of the daughter. The cost of the ceremonies, parties, food, etc., will be paid by the parents using part of the Sin Sod.

As a Westerner you think this sounds like selling ones daughter but the Thai culture has a completely different idea about it. They believe a prospective husband owes them for bringing up the daughter to be a proper lady and wife. Second you are replacing the labor she would have contributed to the family wealth. Third you are demonstrating you have the financial ability to support a family. Thai's are very strict about going along with their culture.

The "Tong Mun" and sometimes the "Sin Sod" will be presented at a betrothal ceremony called a "Phitee Mun," which will take place at the parents home. There may be a small group of family and friends present for the ceremony which involves the introduction of the groom by a friend, giving of the gifts, promises by the groom to take care of the daughter, and acceptance by the parents. You and your lady are now considered to be "Koo Mun" which means "tied or joined couple," (engaged.) Afterward there will be a meal served, and conversation.

Sometime later, it could be the same day, next day, next week, or whatever date set by the "Koo Mun," there will be the actual wedding ceremonies.

The "Bai Sri Soo Kwan" ceremony. The "Bai Sri" is a symbolic ornament put together by the women of the village using banana leaves, rice, flowers, and string. "Soo Kwan" is a sermon given by a village elder. The ceremony concludes by each guest tying a string around the wrist of the bride and of the groom, while giving the married couple their blessings, followed by the placing of a garland of flowers around the couples necks. There will be a meal, music, and "Ram Vong" dancing if there is room.

Although some or most Westerner's disagree or don't like the idea of paying for a wife, it is Thai tradition. For more than 20 years I've been to many wedding ceremonies, including many family members and only once did I hear of the brides parents giving some of the Sin Sod back to the groom so he could start a business. In addition, Thai grooms usually give more than farang. The bride & groom share the gifts of money given to them at the Phitee Mun ceremony.

[Maizefarmer]

I'm interested to know if any husband has requested that his own cluture be respected also, and ask the father of the bride to pay for the wedding?

If not, and you are being "asked" for sin sot, why not?

If the family was living in the USA and the wedding was in the USA the I would ask the brides father to pay for the wedding as that is tradition in the US. But we are living in Thailand and must respect Thai culture.

Pardon my ignorance folks - but as having never been married to a Caucasian/European/ USA girl - is it tradition that the brides parents pay for marrige in Western culture?

I never knew that - if that is the case - but yes, this is Thailand and when in Rome always a good

idea to do as the Romans do.

No snappy comments about how/why I should know this - I don't - can some one explain to me.

Tim

Yes it is Western tradition that the brides father pays for the wedding. At least the first wedding. If the bride is divorced and not her first wedding then the father does not pay. And Western weddings are not cheap. Having owned a flower shop with the ex in my past life I have seen weddings where the flowers alone cost $20,000 US ($750,000 baht).

rdrokit

hel_l........... sounds like I should pack farming in Thailand and open a florist in Beverly Hills, or some other wealthy residential area - would make a killing.

Interesting - I never knew something as simple as that.

For what it worth I had a traditonal Thai wedding that was paid for by me. It cost Baht 36 000 of which Baht 8K was given to the monks, and I can't remember what we paid to get it registered and all the other paper work that goes such events.

My Mom and Dad came along and some Uni friends from the UK and US, the rest were her family and friends. I didnt pay sin sot - in fact when I somewhat half heartedly offered it I was rebuffed.

I have to say my parents in law accepted me from day one - I was as much part of the family as if I had always been a family member. They both have lived and worked in the West but hold traditional Thai values. I have never had a run in with the old boy, but I have been given a fatherly lecture by him on more than one occassion.

As wel lIhave never given him anything or had to buy anything for him. He will retire next year, and has had his eye on 1 rai down by the river (on the farm), so I am building a retirement cottage for him and the mother in law.

When they are up here which they are every 2nd weekend, he gets stuck in with the manual labour on the farm - quite happy to milk cows, assist with calving and drive the harvester. Mom looks after the cooking and the kids (thats her big issue - she can't bear been away from the youngest).

As for the wife - well what I can I say - I'd be lost without her - end of subject

In short I could not have asked for a better missus, marriage, kids or parent s in law - so it is possible and cross cultural marriges can work.

Tim

[Maizefarmer]

But, after dozens of replies and advice Im still no clearer on the subject of sin sot.

The first step in marrying a Thai girl is to have someone approach the ladies parents to discuss the "Tong Mun" and "Sin Sod." (note: Sin Sod, not: Sin SOT)

"Tong Mun" which means "gold engagement" is actual 24 karat gold jewelry given to the lady. This is similar to the western engagement ring, which may also be given, but will not be expected.

"Sin Sod" is the marriage price, the word "Sin" means riches, things of value. In the past it might have been farm animals, farm products, land, or some such. Now money is used as the thing of value. "Sod" is the act of storing away, or holding the "Sin". Long ago it could have been keeping the "Sin" if it was a farm animal in a secure fenced area. Now the "Sin" would be likely stored by depositing the money into a bank. The amount will vary due to several factors such as, the social status and wealth of the parents, the education, age, and beauty of the daughter. The cost of the ceremonies, parties, food, etc., will be paid by the parents using part of the Sin Sod.

As a Westerner you think this sounds like selling ones daughter but the Thai culture has a completely different idea about it. They believe a prospective husband owes them for bringing up the daughter to be a proper lady and wife. Second you are replacing the labor she would have contributed to the family wealth. Third you are demonstrating you have the financial ability to support a family. Thai's are very strict about going along with their culture.

The "Tong Mun" and sometimes the "Sin Sod" will be presented at a betrothal ceremony called a "Phitee Mun," which will take place at the parents home. There may be a small group of family and friends present for the ceremony which involves the introduction of the groom by a friend, giving of the gifts, promises by the groom to take care of the daughter, and acceptance by the parents. You and your lady are now considered to be "Koo Mun" which means "tied or joined couple," (engaged.) Afterward there will be a meal served, and conversation.

Sometime later, it could be the same day, next day, next week, or whatever date set by the "Koo Mun," there will be the actual wedding ceremonies.

The "Bai Sri Soo Kwan" ceremony. The "Bai Sri" is a symbolic ornament put together by the women of the village using banana leaves, rice, flowers, and string. "Soo Kwan" is a sermon given by a village elder. The ceremony concludes by each guest tying a string around the wrist of the bride and of the groom, while giving the married couple their blessings, followed by the placing of a garland of flowers around the couples necks. There will be a meal, music, and "Ram Vong" dancing if there is room.

Although some or most Westerner's disagree or don't like the idea of paying for a wife, it is Thai tradition. For more than 20 years I've been to many wedding ceremonies, including many family members and only once did I hear of the brides parents giving some of the Sin Sod back to the groom so he could start a business. In addition, Thai grooms usually give more than farang. The bride & groom share the gifts of money given to them at the Phitee Mun ceremony.

I disagree which your insistance that it must be spelt with a D as opposed to a T - both are equally acceptable - depending on where you are in Thailand and the pronounciation used.

WE can argue about that all day - not really the point - however, another good and constructive contribution to the subject - far better than some of the junk that was written earlier.

There we have it - started off debated sin sot (sorry - sin sod) and ended up with a contributor who gives a good constructive A -Z of the whole engagement/marrige process.

Cheers for that Tomissan

Tim

[britmaveric]

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Weekly/weekly239.htm

[Maizefarmer]

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Weekly/weekly239.htm

I dont agree with the specific figures he has given related to class and status - they are wrong in the sense that he has classified them as he has, but the gist of it is correct in the sense that as wealth and status rise (and Thai society is still very class consious) the figure rises.

I also disagree with him with respect to how often it occurs in Thai society (i.e. I dont beleive it still occurs as much as he says), but in relation to farang weddings - yup, I'd go along with the statement that it is far less prevalent - the argument been that the sin sot is compensated for in the perception that a rise in social status and security is reward enough in its self.

As for the rest of the writeup - yer, pretty darn cool - another good contribution to the subject.

Interesting was Stickmans statement(s) to the effect that what ultimately becomes of the sin sot is so often subject to discussion and agreement beforehand. Not challenging it or saying it is worng - just suprized, just simply did not know that it was so often discussed to that level of detail.

Tim

[udon]

But, after dozens of replies and advice Im still no clearer on the subject of sin sot.

The first step in marrying a Thai girl is to have someone approach the ladies parents to discuss the "Tong Mun" and "Sin Sod." (note: Sin Sod, not: Sin SOT)

"Tong Mun" which means "gold engagement" is actual 24 karat gold jewelry given to the lady. This is similar to the western engagement ring, which may also be given, but will not be expected.

"Sin Sod" is the marriage price, the word "Sin" means riches, things of value. In the past it might have been farm animals, farm products, land, or some such. Now money is used as the thing of value. "Sod" is the act of storing away, or holding the "Sin". Long ago it could have been keeping the "Sin" if it was a farm animal in a secure fenced area. Now the "Sin" would be likely stored by depositing the money into a bank. The amount will vary due to several factors such as, the social status and wealth of the parents, the education, age, and beauty of the daughter. The cost of the ceremonies, parties, food, etc., will be paid by the parents using part of the Sin Sod.

As a Westerner you think this sounds like selling ones daughter but the Thai culture has a completely different idea about it. They believe a prospective husband owes them for bringing up the daughter to be a proper lady and wife. Second you are replacing the labor she would have contributed to the family wealth. Third you are demonstrating you have the financial ability to support a family. Thai's are very strict about going along with their culture.

The "Tong Mun" and sometimes the "Sin Sod" will be presented at a betrothal ceremony called a "Phitee Mun," which will take place at the parents home. There may be a small group of family and friends present for the ceremony which involves the introduction of the groom by a friend, giving of the gifts, promises by the groom to take care of the daughter, and acceptance by the parents. You and your lady are now considered to be "Koo Mun" which means "tied or joined couple," (engaged.) Afterward there will be a meal served, and conversation.

Sometime later, it could be the same day, next day, next week, or whatever date set by the "Koo Mun," there will be the actual wedding ceremonies.

The "Bai Sri Soo Kwan" ceremony. The "Bai Sri" is a symbolic ornament put together by the women of the village using banana leaves, rice, flowers, and string. "Soo Kwan" is a sermon given by a village elder. The ceremony concludes by each guest tying a string around the wrist of the bride and of the groom, while giving the married couple their blessings, followed by the placing of a garland of flowers around the couples necks. There will be a meal, music, and "Ram Vong" dancing if there is room.

Although some or most Westerner's disagree or don't like the idea of paying for a wife, it is Thai tradition. For more than 20 years I've been to many wedding ceremonies, including many family members and only once did I hear of the brides parents giving some of the Sin Sod back to the groom so he could start a business. In addition, Thai grooms usually give more than farang. The bride & groom share the gifts of money given to them at the Phitee Mun ceremony.

I hope a mod will pin this along with some of Maizefarmer's comments.

Thanks Tomissan

[Totster]

I hope a mod will pin this along with some of Maizefarmer's comments.

Thanks Tomissan

Good idea.. Done !

totster

[pap]

I hope a mod will pin this along with some of Maizefarmer's comments.

Thanks Tomissan

Good idea.. Done !

totster

udon you are a wise man.

I think the info you have given is great.

I Was just talking with a friend of mine about this recently. A lot of variables, previous marriage, status of people involved, possible scam (remote if you aren't marrying a bar girl). I have a hard time letting go of assuming you are paying for love but I know that is not at all what those customs are about. It is still hard to think differently on this. But you have to if you are going to marry a Thai women. It is not only a sign of respect but it seems to me to be accepting all the things about your mate. That includes her culture and family. A lot more potential good to accept it and move on if he is going to have any chance at all. I just am very confused on how you determine amounts appropriate to your situations. I think you probably only pick this up after hearing amounts and regions over time.

[britmaveric]

But you have to if you are going to marry a Thai women.

There is no have to......those that do not pay have the same advantages you have previously expressed, so lets clarify that right now.

[Matt1036]

Look at it this way.

You are a farang.

You work all your life and save for your retirement, you make investments, win some, lose some and slowly build up some wealth for your old age care, your retirement "nest egg".

One day someone comes along and says he is taking say, one third of that "nest egg" portfolio, keeping it for himself and moving all the assets that third entails off-shore, overseas.

Oh, and he doesn't understand why you should be compensated for the loss of 33 and 1 third of that wealth and all of its future returns.

If you are okay with that then start sending me your money.

If you are not okay with that then maybe you are a little closer to understanding "sin sot".

Maybe you are a little closer to understanding why Somchai feels he has a right (read: a need) to be compensated for the "loss" of one of his three daughters.

My Thai father in law is retired but still sends money every month to help support his mother.

I paid "sin sot" - and like most guys I know who have done the same - it is hard to remember why it seemed such a big deal.

[Donz]

You can see why many people dont like me dont you

No.

If you were around when we had the members picture thread where she was in it, you would understand

I was around, and I remember both of your pics. I thought you was Asian is that right?

I still don't understand why people would dislike you though. I don't, in fact I love you a lot, ever since I saw your superb masculine body.........................in that pic..........hahahaaa.........

Im Half Korean Half Scottish. But im an Aussie.

[sriracha john]

Quite a successful troll with 120 resulting, pointless, repetitive, futile posts.... same as the other 99 sin sot threads.

Well done, "joined yesterday" OP.

We're now up to 227 posts now.... over 3,000 views..

An EXCEPTIONALLY SUCCESSFUL good troll.

Extremely well done, OP!

:D

Edited September 27, 2006 by sriracha john

[Heng]

Yes it is Western tradition that the brides father pays for the wedding. At least the first wedding. If the bride is divorced and not her first wedding then the father does not pay. And Western weddings are not cheap. Having owned a flower shop with the ex in my past life I have seen weddings where the flowers alone cost $20,000 US ($750,000 baht).

rdrokit

hel_l........... sounds like I should pack farming in Thailand and open a florist in Beverly Hills, or some other wealthy residential area - would make a killing.

Doesn't have to be wealthy areas. Plenty of Americans are more than ready to charge their flowers (and weddings) to Mastercard or Visa.... or more likely in these cases spread it across several cards and signature bank loans. Our orchids, by the time they get stateside, are sold by florists for $0.99 cents to $2.00 per stem. And these are average prices in plain jane urban florists in San Antonio, Austin, and Houston. Weddings can utilize anywhere from 2,000 - 15,000 orchid stems, often mixed in with several more thousand roses from South America. IME fairly common as well, as we supply about 10-15 weddings a month on average... and about double that for December through February (particularly high season for Valentine's weddings).

[Tomissan]

At the end of the day - do what you are comfy with.

To expand a bit on my previous post.

There are obviously a lot of 'pros' & 'cons' regarding Sin Sod and how we as foreigner's feel about it. Over the years I've often heard that "experience is the best teacher" and I've always agreed.

Not so long ago I witnessed an Englishman of 47 marry a girl of 20 that he met in a beauty shop in Pattaya. He gave her parents 2 million baht for a dowry, bought a house for his new wife (1.8mb), bought her father a new 4x4 truck (1mb+), couple motorbikes and not long after the wedding he took the whole family to England for a vacation. He told me he always wanted a family and now was quite happy.

In addition, I've seen Chinese/Thai men give several million baht Sin Sod. Stickman's "going rate" is inappropriate since every would-be marriage must be taken on it's own merits.

It seems that (in my opinion) foreign men who don't have a lot of money are more against it and those who do have it , not a problem. I'm sure there will be someone who responds to this with, "I have 20 million in the bank but I still don't like the idea of Sin Sod or dowry", but I think this would make up a very small percentage of farang who want to marry Thai girls/women...and the saying, "love knows no boundaries" includes money.

Edited September 27, 2006 by Tomissan

[Heng]

It seems that (in my opinion) foreign men who don't have a lot of money are more against it and those who do have it , not a problem. I'm sure there will be someone who responds to this with, "I have 20 million in the bank but I still don't like the idea of Sin Sod or dowry", but I think this would make up a very small percentage of farang who want to marry Thai girls/women...and the saying, "love knows no boundaries" includes money.

I think a good number of farangs also have a problem with the fact that most (not all) locals get their sin sot returned to bride and groom whereas the majority (not all) of farangs do not see their funds again once it's layed out on the ceremonial tray and later carried off to the back of the house.

[Tomissan]

As other's have pointed out and I would agree; marrying into a wealthy family makes a difference whether your Sin Sod is returned or not regardless if you're Thai or Farang.

Edited September 27, 2006 by Tomissan

[dgoz]

Are there many robberies at these weddings?

Seems like there's usually a lot of cash around with the envelopes and the sin sod.

[LoveDaBlues]

Are there many robberies at these weddings?

Seems like there's usually a lot of cash around with the envelopes and the sin sod.

yes, there is a lot of money floating around and gold also.

Explain to me how do you make your 'getaway'? Fly in/out on a chopper

At the Thai wedding I went to......you would be pursed by basically the whole village......some with guns.......and more than a few 'pissed up'......

[Totster]

Thanks all for the replies, the subject of Sin Sot has been summed up quite well (again).

I have pinned a topic HERE with some good information courtesy of Tomissan and Maizefarmer, if anybody would like to add to it, please contact me by PM.

Totster