Work online for an overseas company...

[Soutpeel]

I wouldn't receive regular payments from a company into a Thai bank account. Have it deposited into an account in home country or ???. Other than that, pretty much what h90 said.

Well in his home country he would pay income tax for it.....

True, but a regular payment from an offshore company might raise questions at a local Thai bank. Probably not, but maybe. Set up deposit offshore in any country with best benefits.

It would't be smart to get paid directly into a Thai bank acct. Get it deposited to your acct back home and transfer it to Thailand. And if anyone says anything, this is from your savings. No different than when I used to day trade abroad and transfer it in.

Why ? certain people say working on line is all above board and legal if this is true why go to all this trouble then

[fireplay]

In terms of legality / WP requirement, nobody can say for sure. Thai legislation prohibits 'work' but the definition of 'work' is entirely open to interpretation. There are no prior examples of people being prosecuted when operating in the manner you describe, but that does not mean it is legal.

In terms of tax, if you get paid direct to a Thai bank account and spent > 180 days in Thailand in that tax year, you will be liable to income tax in Thailand on all income. If you get paid into an account in your home country you will likely be subject to income tax there, regardless of whether you spend a day in the country.

With this in mind, Fab5BKK's advice is good - best to open an offshore personal account in Singapore and either get paid there directly, or start a BVI company with HK banking and then pay yourself dividends to the personal Singapore account. This would be 100% tax free, and so long as you can keep income there until Jan 1st, you can then bring any amount to Thailand without it being subject to Thai income tax.

@fireplay - Citibank IPB is good imo - not sure on the 100k US, have heard the same but others will know intricacies better than me.

Citi IPB is good provided your not a US citizen and if memory serves its 98k not 100 but one still needs to submit a tax return and one suspects source of income will come into play as well, as if income if US sourced or a US company this oversea allowance may not apply

Soooo....provided you are a US citizen...what is another option? I was considering DBS a sg bank...the minimum monthly balance is like 2300 usd...can hold 14 currencies...but the interest earnings are chincy...like .o5%...dipping under the minimum is like a $3.50/mth maintenance fee...any other bank preferabbly sg anyone recommends?

[Soutpeel]

^ Common sense dictates that declaration applies to physical work in the country, laborers, manual work etc as it says on the criteria for persona non grata.

'Persons not wanted in Thailand - Those who, having entered the Kingdom to take up employment as laborers or practice other forms of manual work that require no special skill or training'

http://www.thaivisa.com/392-0.html

I believe accountant and lawyers are prohibited 'professions' as mentioned on the link above as are other non-manual types of work.

Doesnt it follow and common sense dictate

if a profession or job is not on the "excluded professions" list then a foreigner can undertake this work in Thailand and a work permit be had ?

Therefore every other job, profession or work activity a foreigner undertakes requires a WP to be legal ?

Edited September 9, 2015 by Soutpeel

[jspill]

Interesting but irrelevant, given the Thai language version of the law takes presedence and is the offical version

The Thai version doesn't mention online work done remotely for offshore entities, with no physical presence in Thailand, paid in a foreign currency, either.

i have been told the moon is made of cheese, but just because i have been told some thing doesnt make it true

Anecdotal evidence is within the scope of the scientific method for claims regarding particular instances.

Why ? certain people say working on line is all above board and legal if this is true why go to all this trouble then

Low level authorities figures in Thailand are sometimes corrupt / don't stick to proper laws, for example http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/854498-thai-immigration-chief-warned-he-might-face-the-chop/

if a profession or job is not on the "excluded professions" list then a foreigner can undertake this work in Thailand and a work permit be had ?

The issue is with the definition of 'in', I'd say common sense dictates I'm not working 'in' Thailand by writing a blog about cats and having Adsense revenue from Google wired to my Paypal... your opinion may vary.

Edited September 9, 2015 by jspill

[Soutpeel]

In terms of legality / WP requirement, nobody can say for sure. Thai legislation prohibits 'work' but the definition of 'work' is entirely open to interpretation. There are no prior examples of people being prosecuted when operating in the manner you describe, but that does not mean it is legal.

In terms of tax, if you get paid direct to a Thai bank account and spent > 180 days in Thailand in that tax year, you will be liable to income tax in Thailand on all income. If you get paid into an account in your home country you will likely be subject to income tax there, regardless of whether you spend a day in the country.

With this in mind, Fab5BKK's advice is good - best to open an offshore personal account in Singapore and either get paid there directly, or start a BVI company with HK banking and then pay yourself dividends to the personal Singapore account. This would be 100% tax free, and so long as you can keep income there until Jan 1st, you can then bring any amount to Thailand without it being subject to Thai income tax.

@fireplay - Citibank IPB is good imo - not sure on the 100k US, have heard the same but others will know intricacies better than me.

Citi IPB is good provided your not a US citizen and if memory serves its 98k not 100 but one still needs to submit a tax return and one suspects source of income will come into play as well, as if income if US sourced or a US company this oversea allowance may not apply

Soooo....provided you are a US citizen...what is another option? I was considering DBS a sg bank...the minimum monthly balance is like 2300 usd...can hold 14 currencies...but the interest earnings are chincy...like .o5%...dipping under the minimum is like a $3.50/mth maintenance fee...any other bank preferabbly sg anyone recommends?

You would need to ask them, I know what Citi IPB postion is in Singapore as a US collegue was knocked back, as he wanted an account in Singapore but worked in Thailand,

if he worked in Sing and was paying his taxes there it wouldnt be a problem

[NOC]

In terms of legality / WP requirement, nobody can say for sure. Thai legislation prohibits 'work' but the definition of 'work' is entirely open to interpretation. There are no prior examples of people being prosecuted when operating in the manner you describe, but that does not mean it is legal.

In terms of tax, if you get paid direct to a Thai bank account and spent > 180 days in Thailand in that tax year, you will be liable to income tax in Thailand on all income. If you get paid into an account in your home country you will likely be subject to income tax there, regardless of whether you spend a day in the country.

With this in mind, Fab5BKK's advice is good - best to open an offshore personal account in Singapore and either get paid there directly, or start a BVI company with HK banking and then pay yourself dividends to the personal Singapore account. This would be 100% tax free, and so long as you can keep income there until Jan 1st, you can then bring any amount to Thailand without it being subject to Thai income tax.

@fireplay - Citibank IPB is good imo - not sure on the 100k US, have heard the same but others will know intricacies better than me.

Citi IPB is good provided your not a US citizen and if memory serves its 98k not 100 but one still needs to submit a tax return and one suspects source of income will come into play as well, as if income if US sourced or a US company this oversea allowance may not apply

Soooo....provided you are a US citizen...what is another option? I was considering DBS a sg bank...the minimum monthly balance is like 2300 usd...can hold 14 currencies...but the interest earnings are chincy...like .o5%...dipping under the minimum is like a $3.50/mth maintenance fee...any other bank preferabbly sg anyone recommends?

Off-shore nominee corp in HK owned by an anonymous Panamanian trust. Banking by HSBC and their subsidiaries.

Edited September 9, 2015 by NOC

[Mipen]

I am not even allowed to help a friend's kid with his homework.

[Soutpeel]

I am not even allowed to help a friend's kid with his homework.

Why too hard for you ?

[Soutpeel]

In terms of legality / WP requirement, nobody can say for sure. Thai legislation prohibits 'work' but the definition of 'work' is entirely open to interpretation. There are no prior examples of people being prosecuted when operating in the manner you describe, but that does not mean it is legal.

In terms of tax, if you get paid direct to a Thai bank account and spent > 180 days in Thailand in that tax year, you will be liable to income tax in Thailand on all income. If you get paid into an account in your home country you will likely be subject to income tax there, regardless of whether you spend a day in the country.

With this in mind, Fab5BKK's advice is good - best to open an offshore personal account in Singapore and either get paid there directly, or start a BVI company with HK banking and then pay yourself dividends to the personal Singapore account. This would be 100% tax free, and so long as you can keep income there until Jan 1st, you can then bring any amount to Thailand without it being subject to Thai income tax.

@fireplay - Citibank IPB is good imo - not sure on the 100k US, have heard the same but others will know intricacies better than me.

Citi IPB is good provided your not a US citizen and if memory serves its 98k not 100 but one still needs to submit a tax return and one suspects source of income will come into play as well, as if income if US sourced or a US company this oversea allowance may not apply

Soooo....provided you are a US citizen...what is another option? I was considering DBS a sg bank...the minimum monthly balance is like 2300 usd...can hold 14 currencies...but the interest earnings are chincy...like .o5%...dipping under the minimum is like a $3.50/mth maintenance fee...any other bank preferabbly sg anyone recommends?

Off-shore nominee corp in HK owned by an anonymous Panamanian trust. Banking by HSBC and their subsidiaries.

Does that come with a free south pacific island with a secret underground lair inside an extinct volcano ?

[vaultdweller0013]

In terms of legality / WP requirement, nobody can say for sure. Thai legislation prohibits 'work' but the definition of 'work' is entirely open to interpretation. There are no prior examples of people being prosecuted when operating in the manner you describe, but that does not mean it is legal.

In terms of tax, if you get paid direct to a Thai bank account and spent > 180 days in Thailand in that tax year, you will be liable to income tax in Thailand on all income. If you get paid into an account in your home country you will likely be subject to income tax there, regardless of whether you spend a day in the country.

With this in mind, Fab5BKK's advice is good - best to open an offshore personal account in Singapore and either get paid there directly, or start a BVI company with HK banking and then pay yourself dividends to the personal Singapore account. This would be 100% tax free, and so long as you can keep income there until Jan 1st, you can then bring any amount to Thailand without it being subject to Thai income tax.

@fireplay - Citibank IPB is good imo - not sure on the 100k US, have heard the same but others will know intricacies better than me.

Citi IPB is good provided your not a US citizen and if memory serves its 98k not 100 but one still needs to submit a tax return and one suspects source of income will come into play as well, as if income if US sourced or a US company this oversea allowance may not apply

Apparently it increases with inflation: $92,900 for 2011, $95,100 for 2012, $97,600 for 2013, $99,200 for 2014 and $100,800 for 2015

Taken from: http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Foreign-Earned-Income-Exclusion

[fireplay]

Off-shore nominee corp in HK owned by an anonymous Panamanian trust. Banking by HSBC and their subsidiaries.

Does that come with a free south pacific island with a secret underground lair inside an extinct volcano ?

5555 seriously what is that all about? Sounds super dodgy but private...i do want to add though i have heard some horror stories about HSBC and also that its getting a lot more difficult to open an account in HK. DBS did confirm via phone conversation no problem opening with them with an address in thailand and a US passport....and no IRS I9 FORMS to fill out.

[JLCrab]

^ Common sense dictates that declaration applies to physical work in the country, laborers, manual work etc as it says on the criteria for persona non grata.

'Persons not wanted in Thailand - Those who, having entered the Kingdom to take up employment as laborers or practice other forms of manual work that require no special skill or training'

http://www.thaivisa.com/392-0.html

I believe accountant and lawyers are prohibited 'professions' as mentioned on the link above as are other non-manual types of work.

Doesnt it follow and common sense dictate

if a profession or job is not on the "excluded professions" list then a foreigner can undertake this work in Thailand and a work permit be had ?

Therefore every other job, profession or work activity a foreigner undertakes requires a WP to be legal ?

The language in the Visa Application form as I quoted above says that " ... in no case shall I engage myself in any profession or occupation while in the country."

If you want to have a discussion as to what "in no case" means that 's fine but the only thing that matters is when some "competent person" has some reason to interpret that clause differently from the way you would choose to interpret it.

[MeHere]

The language in the Visa Application form as I quoted above says that " ... in no case shall I engage myself in any profession or occupation while in the country."

If you want to have a discussion as to what "in no case" means that 's fine but the only thing that matters is when some "competent person" has some reason to interpret that clause differently from the way you would choose to interpret it.

This answers the question completely, thanks!

[Advocate]

I expect the real test would be if you are performing work which otherwise would have been performed by a Thai citizen. I expect that in 99.99% of such cases a Thai would not have been considered for such work. Therefore no problem in regard to work permit.

In regard to tax, I believe the recipient of rewards for such services is liable to tax when the money is transferred into Thailand.

[fireplay]

I expect the real test would be if you are performing work which otherwise would have been performed by a Thai citizen. I expect that in 99.99% of such cases a Thai would not have been considered for such work. Therefore no problem in regard to work permit.

In regard to tax, I believe the recipient of rewards for such services is liable to tax when the money is transferred into Thailand.

I believe the money is not taxable if it was earned a year prior, how anyone would know when the money was earned that is transfered from an offshore account remains to be seen.

[seancbk]

I wouldn't receive regular payments from a company into a Thai bank account. Have it deposited into an account in home country or ???. Other than that, pretty much what h90 said.

Why would it matter if the foreign company paid into your Thai bank account?

All the Thai bank sees is money coming in, that money could be the OP's own money he's transferring from anywhere.

[JLCrab]

I expect the real test would be if you are performing work which otherwise would have been performed by a Thai citizen. I expect that in 99.99% of such cases a Thai would not have been considered for such work. Therefore no problem in regard to work permit.

In regard to tax, I believe the recipient of rewards for such services is liable to tax when the money is transferred into Thailand.

I expect the real test would be if some 'competent person' would ever have reason to claim that you signed and dated a false declaration to a Thai government official acting in their official capacity along with submitting your current passport details.

[rwdrwdrwd]

^ Common sense dictates that declaration applies to physical work in the country, laborers, manual work etc as it says on the criteria for persona non grata.

'Persons not wanted in Thailand - Those who, having entered the Kingdom to take up employment as laborers or practice other forms of manual work that require no special skill or training'

http://www.thaivisa.com/392-0.html

I believe accountant and lawyers are prohibited 'professions' as mentioned on the link above as are other non-manual types of work.

Doesnt it follow and common sense dictate

if a profession or job is not on the "excluded professions" list then a foreigner can undertake this work in Thailand and a work permit be had ?

Therefore every other job, profession or work activity a foreigner undertakes requires a WP to be legal ?

The language in the Visa Application form as I quoted above says that " ... in no case shall I engage myself in any profession or occupation while in the country."

If you want to have a discussion as to what "in no case" means that 's fine but the only thing that matters is when some "competent person" has some reason to interpret that clause differently from the way you would choose to interpret it.

Please can you point me to that text on this form?

http://www.thaiembassyuk.org.uk/pdffile/visa_standard.pdf

Also what about people who use a VOA?

Edited September 9, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[seancbk]

If you are here on a Tourist Visa then you have probably signed to some variation of this declaration on the Thai Visa Application Form:

Attention for Tourist and Transit Visa Applicants :

I hereby declare that the purpose of my visit to Thailand is for pleasure or transit only and that in no case shall I engage myself in any profession or occupation while in the country.

Up to you.

All these rules on 'working' in Thailand were written when there was no such thing as online work, and when the Thais didn't have a clue about working remotely.

They still think that all workers must be sat in an office, a factory or a field. They still can't get their head around someone being allowed to work from home or wherever, and simply come into the office to drop off the finished work.

It would be nice if they would completely overhaul their definitions, but they like to keep things vague as it makes it easier to change the definition of a law that way (this applies to many laws in Thailand).

[oncearugge]

That is a multipurpose application form which clearly asks for the "Purpose of Current Visit"

Try applying for a tourist visa by stating the Purpose of Current Visa is work. !

[NOC]

I expect the real test would be if you are performing work which otherwise would have been performed by a Thai citizen. I expect that in 99.99% of such cases a Thai would not have been considered for such work. Therefore no problem in regard to work permit.

In regard to tax, I believe the recipient of rewards for such services is liable to tax when the money is transferred into Thailand.

I believe the money is not taxable if it was earned a year prior, how anyone would know when the money was earned that is transfered from an offshore account remains to be seen.

Who says you can't invest it in the year you have to wait.

[rwdrwdrwd]

That is a multipurpose application form which clearly asks for the "Purpose of Current Visit"

Try applying for a tourist visa by stating the Purpose of Current Visa is work. !

People who earn income online don't generally visit Thailand for the purpose of work, since the location they are in at any given time is irrelevant to it.

Edited September 9, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[fireplay]

I have no idea just something i read posted here.

[elviajero]

"I'm just trying to confirm... is it legal or not to work online for an overseas company and live in Thailand, receiving pay from that overseas company in a Thai bank account?"

Simple. It's illegal.

• You cannot work in Thailand without a work permit and you cannot get a work permit for the work you describe.
• If you truly want the answer then don't listen to anything posted here and go along to your local Labour Office. Ask them the same question. You won't like the answer.
• The Labour Department is the only authority that can give you permission to work.

[oncearugge]

If you are here on a Tourist Visa then you have probably signed to some variation of this declaration on the Thai Visa Application Form:

Attention for Tourist and Transit Visa Applicants :

I hereby declare that the purpose of my visit to Thailand is for pleasure or transit only and that in no case shall I engage myself in any profession or occupation while in the country.

Up to you.

All these rules on 'working' in Thailand were written when there was no such thing as online work, and when the Thais didn't have a clue about working remotely.

They still think that all workers must be sat in an office, a factory or a field. They still can't get their head around someone being allowed to work from home or wherever, and simply come into the office to drop off the finished work.

It would be nice if they would completely overhaul their definitions, but they like to keep things vague as it makes it easier to change the definition of a law that way (this applies to many laws in Thailand).

It is not only Thailand which forbids "working" on tourist /visitor visas.

Does your country of origin permit work on such visas ?

[JLCrab]

This is the current visa application form on the Thai Embassy Washington DC site:

http://thaiembdc.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Visa-Application-Form.pdf

Even if you are using the form from the UK, if you misrepresent the purpose of your visit, the same goes. You signed and dated a document which someone if they would have reason to could say was a false declaration to a Ministry official.

BTW The Visa Application Form available on the UK Thailand Embassy website was last modified in December 2012 and the version available on the Thai Embassy Washington DC website was last modified in April 2015.

Edited September 9, 2015 by JLCrab

[NOC]

Does that come with a free south pacific island with a secret underground lair inside an extinct volcano ?

Yes! You get the free south pacific island, and underground lair, a volcano (with an unstable atmosphere) (sorry, the large print giveth, the small print taketh away) 40 virgins (Thai virgins ) and a warranty on your life.

Should any offspring be born under abnormal circumstances, due to genetic abnormalities*, we would be more than happy to placate you and your loved ones for the balance of your lives. (think Mercedes and big houses here)

*See lack of intellectual quota clause in original contract for details.

[Soutpeel]

If you are here on a Tourist Visa then you have probably signed to some variation of this declaration on the Thai Visa Application Form:

Attention for Tourist and Transit Visa Applicants :

I hereby declare that the purpose of my visit to Thailand is for pleasure or transit only and that in no case shall I engage myself in any profession or occupation while in the country.

Up to you.

All these rules on 'working' in Thailand were written when there was no such thing as online work, and when the Thais didn't have a clue about working remotely.

They still think that all workers must be sat in an office, a factory or a field. They still can't get their head around someone being allowed to work from home or wherever, and simply come into the office to drop off the finished work.

It would be nice if they would completely overhaul their definitions, but they like to keep things vague as it makes it easier to change the definition of a law that way (this applies to many laws in Thailand).

Be careful what you wish for, what happens the day they offically clarify catagorically that working on line is illegal ?

Then what ?

Are you really that naive to think they are going to say its ok for people to work here illegally long term on a non appropriate visa and not paying local income tax ?

BTW when was the last update of the applicable rules ? A few years ago a believe, so your suggesting on line work has only been on the go for less than 10 years ? Nice try but your factually wrong on your first point

[elviajero]

That is a multipurpose application form which clearly asks for the "Purpose of Current Visit"

Try applying for a tourist visa by stating the Purpose of Current Visa is work. !

People who earn income online don't generally visit Thailand for the purpose of work, since the location they are in at any given time is irrelevant to it.

Working Act aside. The Immigration Act seems pretty clear. Engaging in any occupation with any visa (temporary permit) needs authorisation.

"Section 37 : An alien having received a temporary entry permit into the Kingdom must comply with the following :

1. Shall not engage in the occupation or temporary or employment unless authorized by the Director General. or competent official deputized by the Director General . If , in any case , there is a law concerning alien employment provided hereafter , the granting of work privileges must comply with the law concerned."

[seancbk]

From Sunbelt (the law firm), Bearing in mind this was posted in 2012....

"While Thai law does require anyone working in Thailand to have a work permit we have been told by the Labor Department that they generally do not require a work permit for those checking emails and doing some work from home remotely. However, if you are selling on Ebay and have boxes of goods in your home this would be looked at in a different light and we have been told that they would expect you to have a company and work permit for this kind of exporting."

Then there is this info from earlier this year....

Effective March 13, 2015, the following activities will no longer require the work permit previously mandated for even short-term business activities, known as the “urgent work permit”:

• Attending a conference or seminar

• Visiting businesses or engaging in discussions with customers

• Attending exhibitions and trade shows

• Attending lectures, educational forums, training programs and seminars as an audience participant

• Attending board of directors meetings in his/her own company

Providing training, speaking at a conference and representing a company at a trade show, however, will still require an urgent work permit.

Source - http://msiimmigration.com/news/thailand-business-activities-longer-require-work-permit/


Given that they significantly relaxed rules for people coming to Thailand to do work type tasks (see list above) and given the statement by Sunbelt, I am of the opinion that their definition of 'work' although vague is only based on being employed and paid by someone in Thailand. Working online and being paid exclusively by an overseas entity does not fall within what they consider work.

I know plenty of people who's 'work' is only reading and replying to emails.... they are paid for their knowledge (consultants basically). If they can be based here working then what is the difference between them and someone doing web design, or managing remote servers for overseas clients, etc

Update from KPMG - The Thai Department of Employment issued an announcement on March 6, 2015, declaring the types of work-related activities that are not classified as “work” under Thailand’s Alien Working Act B.E. 2551 (2008).

https://home.kpmg.com/xx/en/home/insights/2015/03/flash-alert-2015-050.html

Still doesn't cover online, but I still think their definition of work is based on employment by someone or a Thai company in Thailand, and payment from that source in Thailand.

What they are more concerned about with online workers is that they are not on overstay, but do leave when required and go to pay for a fresh visa to re-enter.

And as we should all know, there is no limit to how many times you can enter Thailand as a tourist, so long as you leave when the visa is up. You can stay here for years just leaving and getting a new tourist visa then coming right back.

Edited September 9, 2015 by seancbk