Soutpeel Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 'Thrown in jail' is also an opinion. Much more likely a foreigner working online (not taking jobs from Thais) would get the lighter side of the penalty, a cash fine then released. That's what happened to the 17 foreign teachers in Chiang Mai (physically working in Thailand, so worse). Section 51 of the Aliens Act of Thailand says that's 2000 Baht. Its not an opinion in the least, there is a provsion in the law to do exactly that so not a question of can or cant, its a question of will or wont Yeah I didn't say they can't, I said it's more likely to be a 2k fine, and provided an anecdote of that happening, the teachers in Chiang Mai. Just like the anecdote earlier of being told 'no problem for you' when they explained they work online but don't sell anything in Thailand. You guys don't have much to go on other than 'working is working' in the Alien Labor act. See you in the next 10 threads debating this (as we've been doing for a year or two now) I have some emails to answer No you said it was an "opinion " its not an "opinion".... its a "provision" its a fact; they can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeHere Posted September 9, 2015 Author Share Posted September 9, 2015 OK... read all of this going back and forth, and although I was convinced at my last post that it was NOT allowed to work here according to my OP... now I am almost back to my original question again... Firstly, cheers for all the replies... I never thought this would reach 5 pages (but this IS TV after all!), the amazing response is greatly appreciated! To answer the unstated: I am a would be consultant, I would occasionally consult for western companies based 'somewhere' in the 'western' domain I'm a citizen of two countries, permanent resident of one other I have (would be, of course) clients from all over... they need advice from time to time... I would provide this. No one else can do what I do without lots and lots of training and/or experience (which I could provide locally (IF I had a WP)) I love Thailand and have been here for more than several years (several means over two but not many. Many might be five or fifty for all I know <deleted>) I stay here with my Thai GF, and our time together we both enjoy immensely (we've been together for well over 4 years, she's never worked in a bar (she's an accountant) but she loves the whiskey I buy) and she's never asked me for a <deleted>' penny, bless her heart. Despite that, she's convinced me to give my all, and I do without any hesitation whatsoever (maybe I am stupid (I don't think so)) I've had a work permit here previously (for over 3 years), have two cars purchased during that time; one paid for, one still is in finance The company I would consult for doesn't care where I live, whether it's here or Lagos... I prefer Thailand... What makes me happy makes my client happy (not that that matters in this discussion) I might think for 0-6 hours in any single day, could be 0-6 days a week, depending on the query... 7th day is for the purge! I might document my thinking with diagrams, text, specs, or photos... maybe even complete 3d generated model data and documentation to support all. I enjoy my consulting more than most things (most things excludes pussy (nonetheless) and vodka) I'm not a teacher, but I love to teach... makes my life easier (wish I could get a commission on that 555) For me, with my life, I feel every day is a holiday I hope that clarifies anything in regards to my pending situation 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickenrunCM Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 "I'm just trying to confirm... is it legal or not to work online for an overseas company and live in Thailand, receiving pay from that overseas company in a Thai bank account?" Simple. It's illegal. You cannot work in Thailand without a work permit and you cannot get a work permit for the work you describe. If you truly want the answer then don't listen to anything posted here and go along to your local Labour Office. Ask them the same question. You won't like the answer. The Labour Department is the only authority that can give you permission to work. It is not illegal!!! as nobody in Thailand can give you a work permit for working for foreign companies outside Thailand. as no work permit can be issued wor cant be illegal! because if you would get a work permit you could work in Thailand for Thai companies, you would be able to get health insurance aso and millions of people would break the law and work illegal because they answer company emails, prepare contracts, answer telefon calls, make company decision, fire staff, order goods, selling goods, shares, a much more, how long you work only with your brain and the outcome is only intellectual property of you, than you do not need a work permit, otherwise it would means you would have to apply for a work permit for use your brain and store thoughts! you not have to pay tax also, only for income made in Thailand. If you not work for a company in Thailand and not for Thai customers, and you produce only so called intellectual property, you do nothing illegal!!!!!!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickenrunCM Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I don't understand why people try to convince other people that their random, irrelevant and arbitrary layman interpretation of the law is actually the law. What on earth does being on 'hoilday/vacation' have to do with anything - where is the law that even treats someone differently if they are on 'holiday/vacation'? seancbk introduced claiming to be on perpetual holiday was a way to circumvent the law. Right, so think we're in agreement that there is no legal distinction between whether or not an activity is 'work' regardless of the length of stay and visa status of the individual in question. Thai law simply says 'working is working' so therefore what is 'work' for someone who stays in Thailand for 5 years must logically also be 'work' for someone who stays for 5 days, 1 - If someone stays in Thailand for 5 days and spends 10 minutes a day dealing with business related emails, are they working? 2 - If someone stays in Thailand for 5 years and spends 8 hours a day dealing with business related emails, are they working? 3 - If the answers to 1 and 2 differ, why is that and upon what legal basis? Your questions are irrelevant to the OP. He has claimed himself that he will be "working" and living in Thailand. The only question is whether or not he needs a work permit. We can all agree that if he was working for a Thai company he would need the right visa and work permit. The relevant question is does working for a foreign employer exclude him from Thai labour law. In my opinion and with advice from Thai authorities it doesn't. I believe a senior immigration officer did go public and say that someone on holiday can "work" at their business while on holiday in Thailand. If you or anyone else want to argue with the Labour department about what constitutes a genuine holiday I wish you the very best of luck. so people here so clever and smart, how you show on court that somebody work outside thailand? there is no work permit what can be issued for such a work, no country can give a work permit for work outside their territory! your work must only fit the law and the conditions in the country where your work is for, if you write a book in your condo, then IMO can you arrest? if you paint a picture in your condo and somebody outside Thailand offers you to buy it, you get arrested? if you write a blog about anything on a webpage and you get money from google adds, you get arrested? if you make a video of your cat on your condo balcony, you put it on youtube and you are lucky and you get 100.000.000 likes and a lot of money from youtube, you are working and you get arested? NEVER EVER!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickenrunCM Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 That is the whole point - unless you are employed by a Thai company and paid by them in Thailand you don't need a WP. If you are 100% employed outside of Thailand and paid 100% outside of Thailand, you are not working here, even if living here. Because again how can they stop you answering work emails and replying whilst on holiday? They can't. Being paid is irrelevant. You could work for free while in Thailand but you still need the right visa and a work permit. The OP is not someone on "holiday". He is talking about being resident here and working. Big difference. he cant be resident, he can be only on a non O or tourist visa, and for sure it is relevant if you are paid or not, I am with 8 other foreigners in the parents board of an international school, we meet twice a month, we doing differnet projects, like fairs, sportsday, partys, selling food aso, so you really dont want to say that we are working and we need a work permit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickenrunCM Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Given the OP stated catagorically he intends working in Thailand can we state catagorically he needs a WP ? But the thing is there is clarity, there is a list of occupations a foreigner cant do under any circumstances and there is a recently published list of circumstances where a WP is not needed..... couple that with the standing rules that one needs a work permit to work in Thailand which further states where one is paid or even if one gets paid has no bearing on the defintion of work It seems to me the intent is pretty clear in my opinion of course The other thing that needs to be addressed about not being able to get a WP for on line work ....yes one could if one set up a Thai limited company, and in fact know someone who has done exactly this and the core on line business has nothing to do with Thailand big difference between "cant" and "wont " I honestly don't think we can categorically state that, no - we have no guarantee that what the OP personally considers to be 'work' would also be considered 'work' for the purpose of Thai legislation by a judge. It might be, but it might not. I'm not really sure where you're going with the occupation list comment, it doesn't really cover anything pertaining to remote work that I can see - http://www.thailawonline.com/en/others/labour-law/forbidden-occupations-for-foreigners-jobs.html - nor does the 'list of circumstances where a WP is not needed' cover every other possible activity. I don't think we can infer that any other activity is allowed or disallowed just because it does not appear on either list. In regard the the WP for online work - yes by virtue of a Thai Ltd co and a lot of bureaucracy everyone 'can', the question remains whether they 'need', and I don't think anyone here can accurately determine that. Per your second paragraph where i am going is this, they have published a list stating which activites dont require a WP, we also have a list which prohibits certain activites for foreigners, given the list was published in 2015 and the DOL will be fully aware of people working on line, can we suggest seeing as on line work is not on that list, this suggests a work permit is required, as if it wasnt they would have put on line work on that list wouldnt they ? so everything what is not on the list is work and require a work permit? strange logic .... opening a door in a shoping center for a nice woman, painting your room, changing your light, changing your oil in your car/ motorbike, fixing your flat TV at your wall, pick up your son at school, driving your neighbour to the doctor, take the menu from the bar in restaurant, changing money for a friend, and millions other things, all not in list, so by your logic, everybody is working 24 hour in Thailand illegal because all activities are not on the list but for many people it means a paid job, painter, taxidriver, handy man, security guard, waitress, bank clerk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLCrab Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 So it sounds like the OP will be staying in Thailand on a tourist visa on which he declared that he will not be engaging in any profession or occupation while (whilst) in the Kingdom or that he did not disclose such 'Purpose of Current Visit' on some variation of the Visa Application Form in that he might be spending up to 6 hours on any give day consulting with his ex-Thai client. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwdrwdrwd Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) It sounds to me like his 'purpose of visit' is to spend time with his girlfriend. Edited September 9, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlock Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 lol- you'd think someone who worked online could use the search function. so happy to see this topic again it brings out the best in TV! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLCrab Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 It sounds to me like his purpose of visit is to spend time with his girlfriend. Sure -- during all those hours of the day when he is not working as a consultant. You seem to feel making a false statement on this type of form and signing your name with a date and passport information is a trivial matter. It most likely is. But it is also making a false statement to a Thai official which could be considered a misdemeanor under the Thai Penal Code. Up to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwdrwdrwd Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) No, I think his purpose of visit is to visit his girlfriend. He is not physically entering Thailand as a precondition to earning income. When I work on a plane, it does not mean that I am on the plane for the purpose of work. In terms of the 'occupation' aspect of the form, that form is not issued everywhere, and even in the places it does it brings us back to the question of sending an email and whether that counts as 'engaging in an occupation' or not. Can easily be interpreted to mean offering services in Thailand. Edited September 9, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLCrab Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) No, I think his purpose of visit is to visit his girlfriend. He is not physically entering Thailand as a precondition to earning income. When I work on a plane, it does not mean that I am on the plane for the purpose of work. I think you are right until come 'competent person' asks him what he did today and if he leaves out the fact that he spent up to 6 hours that day consulting that competent person would say that he was engaging on a profession or occupation in Thailand for which you are is being paid which you specifically declared that you will not do while you are in The Kingdom or was not the intent of your visit as a tourist. Likely to happen probably not but have you ever hear of a 'paper trail'? As per the above: No, I think his purpose of visit is to visit his girlfriend. No, his purpose was stated in the Topic Heading that he intends to "Work online for an overseas company..." Edited September 9, 2015 by JLCrab 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post rwdrwdrwd Posted September 9, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) That still does not mean it is his purpose for visiting Thailand, unless it is a requirement that he operates from Thailand. Whilst my opinion is that the OP cannot 100% be assured of whether or not they require or do not require a WP, and whether or not what they doing is legal (and indeed whether that is dependent upon the specific application form they originally signed), I would agree that operating without a WP in this manner places one in a much more risky position if one comes to the attention of authorities. OP you have 2 or 3 choices really, depending on your tolerance for risk: 1 - Set up a Thai company, employ 4 Thai people. Given your clients are all offshore, you could also open a business in HK for example, and have the Thai co as a service company that employs you - then you would only need to invoice from Thai co to HK co just enough to fulfli Thai minimum income requirements and Thai co operating costs. The remainder could be paid as dividends to a personal account outside of Thailand and remitted to Thailand tax free in the subsequent tax year. 2 - Use an umbrella service, such as http://iglu.in.th/freelance/ - you could still take the HK co route as well. 3 - Take the risk of being the first person with online income prosecuted in Thailand for earning income online. Edited September 9, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLCrab Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I would suggest in his present circumstances to go with # 3 above. My only dog in this hunt is not WP or Labor Ministry concerns but signing a statement saying to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs that you are not doing exactly what you are doing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 "I'm just trying to confirm... is it legal or not to work online for an overseas company and live in Thailand, receiving pay from that overseas company in a Thai bank account?" Simple. It's illegal. You cannot work in Thailand without a work permit and you cannot get a work permit for the work you describe. If you truly want the answer then don't listen to anything posted here and go along to your local Labour Office. Ask them the same question. You won't like the answer. The Labour Department is the only authority that can give you permission to work. It is not illegal!!!as nobody in Thailand can give you a work permit for working for foreign companies outside Thailand. as no work permit can be issued wor cant be illegal! because if you would get a work permit you could work in Thailand for Thai companies, you would be able to get health insurance aso and millions of people would break the law and work illegal because they answer company emails, prepare contracts, answer telefon calls, make company decision, fire staff, order goods, selling goods, shares, a much more, how long you work only with your brain and the outcome is only intellectual property of you, than you do not need a work permit, otherwise it would means you would have to apply for a work permit for use your brain and store thoughts! you not have to pay tax also, only for income made in Thailand. If you not work for a company in Thailand and not for Thai customers, and you produce only so called intellectual property, you do nothing illegal!!!!!!!! Funny that i have a buddy who only does work on line for companies outside thailand, and guess what he managed to get a WP The rest of your post is just poop 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 That is the whole point - unless you are employed by a Thai company and paid by them in Thailand you don't need a WP. If you are 100% employed outside of Thailand and paid 100% outside of Thailand, you are not working here, even if living here. Because again how can they stop you answering work emails and replying whilst on holiday? They can't. Being paid is irrelevant. You could work for free while in Thailand but you still need the right visa and a work permit.The OP is not someone on "holiday". He is talking about being resident here and working. Big difference. he cant be resident, he can be only on a non O or tourist visa, and for sure it is relevant if you are paid or not, I am with 8 other foreigners in the parents board of an international school, we meet twice a month, we doing differnet projects, like fairs, sportsday, partys, selling food aso, so you really dont want to say that we are working and we need a work permit? Yes one can be " resident" Per the current defintions money or being paid has nothing to do with it Technically speaking you are being a volunteer and a WP is required for being a volunteer 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loptr Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Not this chestnut again... Keep your head down and don't tell anyone what you are doing, especially farang... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLCrab Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Not this chestnut again... Keep your head down and don't tell anyone what you are doing, especially farang... Yes and it would probably have soon been off the front page if you hadn't bumped it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubonjoe Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 After having to remove some posts that were just trying to start a bickering session this topic is now closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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