Thai resident

[Chancery]

My daughter needs to choose her citizenship due to singapore's policy. In the event that she renounce her thai citizenship, I hear that she can apply for thai permanent residence. Any idea?

[ubonjoe]

There is no category for a Thai national to obtain permanent residency after giving up their Thai nationality.

She can could apply for one year extensions of stay based upon being a returning Thai national..

[Chancery]

Yes this has been a topic of confusion for me. santiban- the department for submitting citizenship says she can do it within 30 days and I checked with TM at the Immigration who said the same thing. That bus she can apply for PR once the letter of renounciation is out. I'm just trying to find someone in the same position to share. In case that there are any clause to this I am missing. He even said in this case, no need to have the standard 3 year stay that foreigners need

I'm in a dilemma of having my daughter take up Singapore or thai citizen. Initially we were prepared to give up sin as she's born and bred in Thailand. But after going for her university in UK and now pursuing her masters, she has a change of mind to opt for sin as she wants to try out working there. My fear is that if it doesn't work out, she wants to come back to Bkk and then things can be tricky if she does not have a job or enough experience to apply for one that gives work permit (. Trying to gather info at the moment

[ubonjoe]

There is no mention of that catgory here in the regulations for PR. http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/doc/residence/26122546_regulation_notice_en.pdf

[Chancery]

Yes, I have searched everything I can find in the websites and can't find anything on it.

But the Thai authorities say otherwise when I call.

I'm just afraid there are minor clauses that

I'm missing to get the PR back.

Probably need to make a trip to immigration.

Was hoping someone have the same experience to

Share

[Soutpeel]

Yes, I have searched everything I can find in the websites and can't find anything on it.

But the Thai authorities say otherwise when I call.

I'm just afraid there are minor clauses that

I'm missing to get the PR back.

Probably need to make a trip to immigration.

Was hoping someone have the same experience to

Share

Honestly cant see them giving her PR in Thailand if she formally gives up Thai citizenship

[Chancery]

Yes. I wonder about that too. But I called the immigration like 3 times and they say can. I need to make a trip down to see them personally

[THAIJAMES]

I pretty sure that if she is born in Thailand and her mother is Thai, then she can always claim back her citizenship.

[Chancery]

Thanks but not so easy. She can go thru that route if she married a foreignor, get divorce and wants to return back.

But if she gives it up on her own accord, then she has to come back as a foreignor

[Chancery]

Ok. I just found out. If renounce thai , she can

Apply for a document call bai dang Dow just to

Indicate she is ex Thai. But living here then

She has to go through the normal

Visa procedures like a Thai. Hmm.. What

Sd be the best? I'm in such a a dilemma

[Arkady]

Bai Dang Dow is an alien book. Permanent residents get one of these and a residence book. I was under the impression that people who formerly held Thai nationality are entitled to permanent residence but I can't find anything in writing about it. The Immigration Act has a provision Section 42.2 for formerly Thai women to get permanent residence outside the quotas but only, if they renounced Thai nationality to marry an alien.

42.2. A woman having Thai nationality by birth who has renounced Thai nationality in the case of
marriage to an alien.

(This provision was originally mainly for Thai Chinese women who automatically lost Thai citizenship to marry a Chinese national living in Thailand. The men didn't take up the Thai citizenship they were born with to avoid military service.)

However, if the Santibaan and Immigration both agree that she can get PR automatically on renunciation, there may be some other interpretation or some other regulations. Santibaan process applications to renounce citizenship. So they should know. You should ask them or Immigration for the reference to the applicable law or regulation.

I know a couple of people living in Singapore, who have half Singaporean children and they told me that the Sing government didn't ask them for evidence of renunciation of foreign citizenship. They ensured that their kids always used a Singapore passport to travel on, so there was no evidence of ever having activated the other nationality. But if your daughter is born and bred in Thailand, it may be obvious to Singapore she has activated her Thai nationality.

She should be aware that PR in Thailand doesn't give the right to work. PRs still need a work permit and need to meet the same requirements as any other foreigner.

A Singapore passport is better for travel but nothing beats Thai citizenship, if you live and work in Thailand. Maybe there is a similar provision to get PR in Singapore after renouncing citizenship. At least Singapore PR gives the right to work.

[Chancery]

Thanks for that. Yes the complication is that if she renounces, it will be on her own accord and thus the various visas needed to get back in will be complicating.

Singapore is not so easy. Once u renounce sin, we fear the opportunity to work there is minimized. We hear of ex Singaporeans being rejected employment passes esp males who skip NS. Not sure abt females. There again, they are clamping down on foreign employment as well. She will be a fresh grad applying for jobs and so that makes it tougher

I am totally stress as to what is the best for her although she thinks sin is the route for her now. as she has never lived there before other than visits to relatives few times a year , things will get complicated if she doesn't like it and wants to come back. There again , I would like her to stay with us, but that's the selfish side of me. Will I be limiting her job opportunities in sin.,. !? Wish I have a crystal ball

[oncearugge]

The young lady is a degree educated Adult.

Present the facts you have discovered , in a non manipulative/judgmental manner and allow her to make her own decision.

[DDbkh]

I would recommend she opt for the Singapore nationality. It is world renowned and respected and most countries accept Spore passports without visa restrictions. If AEC ever gets off the ground then she won't need a visa or work permit to work in Thailand.

[oncearugge]

I would recommend she opt for the Singapore nationality. It is world renowned and respected and most countries accept Spore passports without visa restrictions. If AEC ever gets off the ground then she won't need a visa or work permit to work in Thailand.

Agreed apart from the fact you seem to have misunderstood the nature of the ASEAN agreements which do not include "freedom of movement" , the removal of border controls or the need for visas/work permits.

[Chancery]

Yes, sin definitely the superior nationality to take plus better job opportunities. I guess I was just surprise at her sudden last minute change as we were expecting her to give up sin. She's naturally very Thai and so I'm afraid she'll struggle there. Her plus is her good education in a top tier uni in the UK. But the minus is the submissive nature of her character. I guess I'm just not ready to let her go. The thought that she may live away forever

[Chancery]

Yes, sin definitely the superior nationality to take plus better job opportunities. I guess I was just surprise at her sudden last minute change as we were expecting her to give up sin. She's naturally very Thai and so I'm afraid she'll struggle there. Her plus is her good education in a top tier uni in the UK. But the minus is the submissive nature of her character. I guess I'm just not ready to let her go. The thought that she may live away forever

Ps I don't think she can get PR if she does not take oath of citizenship. She has never lived there.

Appreciate all your comments though. I think AEC only works for certain industry without need of work permit. May not fall in her category which is likely finance or consulting

[paz]

By chances, is your daughter born in Singapore? If so, the following would apply.

The Constitution of Singapore is silent on a Singapore citizen who acquired citizenship by birth and is a foreign citizen by descent. So long as such a person refrains from exercising the rights of foreign citizenship, the Government has no grounds for depriving him of his Singapore citizenship and he may hold on to dual citizenship.^[11]

1. Articles 122(4) and 126(3) for Singaporean citizens by descent and registration respectively, no provision for Singaporean citizens by birth

[Chancery]

Thanks. She's born and bred in Thailand. Just afraid if she gives up sin, she will be blacklisted for job opportunities or future chance to live there if her destiny directs her there.

Extremely difficult decision. She's totally confuse at this stage. Wants to try working there first but have no clue if sin will be her future home

[paz]

Thanks. She's born and bred in Thailand. Just afraid if she gives up sin, she will be blacklisted for job opportunities or future chance to live there if her destiny directs her there.

Extremely difficult decision. She's totally confuse at this stage. Wants to try working there first but have no clue if sin will be her future home

Based on the evidence you may have collected, what is the the proof that Singapore wants about her renouncing her other nationality?

And, what would be the process for her to regain Thai citizenship in case she renounces it ?

I think that if the answer to either question is encouraging, the issue here is not that dramatic.

[blackcab]

^ What Paz said. Is anyone in Singapore formally requiring her to make a choice?

[Chancery]

Singapore has already sent a letter to inform her that she needs to take an oath if citizenship plus document proving renounciation before her 22 birthday or else she will cease to be citizen automatically. There is no escape.

The process of THai renounciation is extremely tedious. It will need to be announce on the Royal Gazette too. To reclaim citizenship, there are few ways. One is too look after thai parents. But this clause fails if parents are not around or if u renounce citizenship on ur own accord. It only works if u renounce citizenship to gat marry overseas and the marriage fails. U need documents for that. Second is if u marry overseas and marriage fail and if need to return to Thailand. Process takes a few years. My daughter not fall into these categories bec of the marriage factor. Otherwise , u will be regarded as a foreignor and need visas etc to stay here. Very troublesome. There is no way out. Need to choose .

[blackcab]

I suppose a marriage of convenience is out of the question?

[Chancery]

I think for Singapore, you need to be clean. Cannot escape. There's this issue of passport too if you have 2 passports, there's no escaping.

Unless, you stay in Singapore. Use sin passport and keep quiet about the other nationality. But if it's found out, you are legally against the law.my daughters record is already in ICA. Last year when she renewed her passport, they only gave it up to 22 bday

[Chancery]

I did think about marriage of convenience. Will Singaporeans be paid for that? It's just too much a hassle .

[blackcab]

I did think about marriage of convenience. Will Singaporeans be paid for that? It's just too much a hassle .

Well if she married a Singaporean and lived in Singapore she would reasonably be expected to choose Singaporean citizenship.

If it didn't work out she would have a route to claim her Thai citizenship back.

[samran]

The way I look at it is this way.

1) give up Thai. Keep Singapore.

Pros: access to higher paying labour market in Singapore, social welfare (of whaf exists in Singapore). Reasonable urban lifestyle. Singapore passport excellent for travel.

Ability in Thailand to comeback on a former Thai citizen visa and stay on that.

Con: more or less seems Thai citizenship is not redeemable given it wasn't given up due to marriage. It is gone and gone for good unless she wishes to go throfugh the whole process to get it back, just like any other foriegner. Many many years that will take. At which point singspore citizenship might need to be given up again. Loss of access to ability to buy property etc in Thailand.

Major con in my book, you have the right to live on one tiny island. And nowhere else.

2) give up Singapore, keep Thai

Con: loses benefits which derive from Singapore citizenship (see above).

Pro: you say your daughter is a smart cookie. That means she is plugged into the international economy anyway.

Singapore, despite recent rhetoric, is still very much an internstional city. I know plenty of Thai people exactly like your daugher who go to work in Singapore. They get EPs.PR in time. The best of both worlds so she can come and go between the two. She retains her rights in Thailand.

Someone like your daugher will never have an issue travelling on a Thai passport. They are the ones who get the multi entry visas for the west - embassies aren't worried about people like your daugher.

Neither choice is easy given Singapores stance on dual citizenship, but in my estimation path 2 gives the medium term possibility of a best of both worlds situation (Singapore PR, Thai passport), than the first choice does.

[blackcab]

If she keeps the Thai citizenship send her abroad to do her masters. I know several Thais who have an interational education up to masters level and they seem to be doing just fine in Thailand, thank you very much.

[paz]

Singapore has already sent a letter to inform her that she needs to take an oath if citizenship plus document proving renounciation before her 22 birthday or else she will cease to be citizen automatically. There is no escape.

I would not be 100% sure about that. Since the Thai process is not formally completed until announced on the Royal Gazette (which can require many months) what Singapore can reasonably demand before her 22nd birthday is only that the processed is initiated.

And on such an important decision, I believe the process can be cancelled until signed by an high authority.

Unless there is a post-fact fact finding process, again that is for you to ascertain.

Anyway, if it was me I would never suggest my children to renounce their truly natural citizenship, virtually under no circumstance. While it's also possible that Singapore could change citizenship law in the future.

[Chancery]

Thanks. I think I'm leaning towards Thai now. She's Thai in nature and personality with a international exposure. With an undergraduate degree and then a masters from elite schools in UK, I hope she should be able to find a good job here.

Lots of people will say stupid to give up sin as per the pros you mention and being a superior nation. But they don't know the family stress, the long term separation and traveling to and fro and emotional ties involve.

I live in Bkk for 25 years, married to a Thai. I have to shuttle to and fro to go visit in sin. The distance may be short, but the weekly travels when my mum was ill last year is not fun. I never once thought of uprooting my family to sin as both our careers are successful and raised my daughter as a Thai. Thus her recent urge to take up sin surprised me.

This is indeed a very tough decision. But I hope finally we make the right one

The one concern we have is the blacklisting of ex sin given EP and PRs. Many especially males have been rejected as they miss doing NS. I'm not sure about females. But there is this concern of biasness.