Koh Tao murders: 2 DNA profiles from alleged murder weapon do not match defendants' DNA

[StealthEnergiser]

I hope the Miller's get their justice and can have closure on their terrible loss.

I think that they are privy to something that we don't know about - maybe something revealed to them by the UK police in their capacity of observing the investigation, of which cannot be given out to the public. Otherwise, why would they want the B2 to go down if they they were not truly convinced of their guilt?

As others have said their is no need for you to continue talking about this it has been answered many times today if you don't agree thats ok but it is not necessary to keep going on about it.

[TheCruncher]

I hope the Miller's get their justice and can have closure on their terrible loss.

I think that they are privy to something that we don't know about - maybe something revealed to them by the UK police in their capacity of observing the investigation, of which cannot be given out to the public. Otherwise, why would they want the B2 to go down if they they were not truly convinced of their guilt?

Well you are conviced of their guilt purely because the Millers are. So your own view indicates how easy it is to be misled.

You cannot be convinced because of evidence because there is none.

The Millers were only told what the rtp wanted them told. Dna match perfect. But now we know the claim was rubbish.

I don't believe the UK police, who observed the investigation, told the Miller family what the RTP wanted them to tell.

[StealthEnergiser]

Guilt not shown in Koh Tao trial

October 13, 2015 1:00 am

A defendant in the Koh Tao rape and murder of two British tourists said he was beaten into confessing.

To demonstrate that genuine rule of law exists in Thailand, justice must be not only be done, but must be seen to be done. Thai Criminal Code S134/4 stipulates that, for any statement given by a suspect to be admissible in court, he must first have been informed of his right to silence and to legal counsel during interrogation. Also, he cannot be tortured or misled.

So the prosecution should provide video of the entire interrogation that shows the suspect's lawyer was present throughout, and require the lawyer to swear under oath as to the video's veracity. But such proof of its compliance with S134/4 has not been provided.



Burin Kantabutra

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Guilt-not-shown-in-Koh-Tao-trial-30270711.html

Edited October 13, 2015 by metisdead
Edited as per fair use policy.

[StealthEnergiser]

I hope the Miller's get their justice and can have closure on their terrible loss.

I think that they are privy to something that we don't know about - maybe something revealed to them by the UK police in their capacity of observing the investigation, of which cannot be given out to the public. Otherwise, why would they want the B2 to go down if they they were not truly convinced of their guilt?

Well you are conviced of their guilt purely because the Millers are. So your own view indicates how easy it is to be misled.

You cannot be convinced because of evidence because there is none.

The Millers were only told what the rtp wanted them told. Dna match perfect. But now we know the claim was rubbish.

I don't believe the UK police, who observed the investigation, told the Miller family what the RTP wanted them to tell.

Interesting

[TheCruncher]

Guilt not shown in Koh Tao trial

October 13, 2015 1:00 am

A defendant in the Koh Tao rape and murder of two British tourists said he was beaten into confessing.

To demonstrate that genuine rule of law exists in Thailand, justice must be not only be done, but must be seen to be done. Thai Criminal Code S134/4 stipulates that, for any statement given by a suspect to be admissible in court, he must first have been informed of his right to silence and to legal counsel during interrogation. Also, he cannot be tortured or misled.

So the prosecution should provide video of the entire interrogation that shows the suspect's lawyer was present throughout, and require the lawyer to swear under oath as to the video's veracity. But such proof of its compliance with S134/4 has not been provided.

Burin Kantabutra

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Guilt-not-shown-in-Koh-Tao-trial-30270711.html

The accused might well be guilty of the rape and murder, but the evidence presented doesn't prove it. To show that justice has been done, and thus preserve Thailand's image, both defendants must be freed.

Burin Kantabutra

So Burin Kantabutra supports to have murderers been freed because the prosecution didn't provide enough evidence?

[joebrown]

To : lucky 11

In a previous post you made some derogatory remarks about Khun Pornthip and her relationship with the Thai police.

My understanding of Dr Pornthip's relationship with Thai police was that she had the annoying habit of finding and then revealing the 'uncomfortable' truth which contradicted the police version of events in several otherwise 'perfect' investigations.

When one sees the obvious 'stage managed' beach crime scene from the few (non-police) photos available, it's no surprise she was overlooked, in favour of the Keystone Cops. Had she been there she wouldn't have had much difficulty in uncovering more 'uncomfortable' truths.

BTW, whilst on the topic of 'crime scene' maybe you could explain why Mon knew where the hoe should have been situated, before the gardener moved it to his garden?

[smedly]

Lets get one thing straight, the Millar familiy confirmed that a phone provided by the prosecution/police had an IMEI number that matched Davids, the Millar family have no idea where the phone was found - only the Thai police can confirm that, and just like the DNA there should have been a COC for all phones found connected to this investigation, bagged tagged with all serial numbers recorded, we only have the word of the police which phone they claim was found smashed at B2 residence and which phone was found at the crime scene, it is also claimed that Hannahs phone was not found at the crime scene and that her friend had it in their room

So we only have the word of RTP which phone was which and if it is assumed that B2 are scapegoats then it is not beyond the realms of possibility that RTP manipulated the phones, there was always confusion over phones from a long time ago - it is no surprise to me that UK police decided not to get involved with the phone issue.

I will say this however, the phone that was found in the sand (in the dark) was likely lost within hours of it being found by Wei as I am sure someone would have discovered it during the daytime of the previous day on the busy beach, so that particular phone was likely lost on the beach by someone that night/morning, it is also worth noting that a phone would be very difficult to spot on the sand in the dark

[Linky]

I hope the Miller's get their justice and can have closure on their terrible loss.

I think that they are privy to something that we don't know about - maybe something revealed to them by the UK police in their capacity of observing the investigation, of which cannot be given out to the public. Otherwise, why would they want the B2 to go down if they they were not truly convinced of their guilt?

Well you are conviced of their guilt purely because the Millers are. So your own view indicates how easy it is to be misled.

You cannot be convinced because of evidence because there is none.

The Millers were only told what the rtp wanted them told. Dna match perfect. But now we know the claim was rubbish.

I don't believe the UK police, who observed the investigation, told the Miller family what the RTP wanted them to tell.

The ONLY thing the UK police could tell them is what the rtp told them.

[fritzzz25]

I hope the Miller's get their justice and can have closure on their terrible loss.

I think that they are privy to something that we don't know about - maybe something revealed to them by the UK police in their capacity of observing the investigation, of which cannot be given out to the public. Otherwise, why would they want the B2 to go down if they they were not truly convinced of their guilt?

I hope the Miller and Witherdige family get justice. Why do you think there are so many passionate posters on here? Because we all want justice, but we want it done properly. If they want real justice, they will not find it in the work of the RTP. They will find with investigators who know what to look for, and know HOW to do it.

There is DNA out there that will match the evidence in the possession of the police. If you know the techniques on how to get it, it is pretty darn easy to get. The KT police have written themselves a blank cheque for many years by ignoring who the real suspects are.....

[Gweiloman]

To : lucky 11

In a previous post you made some derogatory remarks about Khun Pornthip and her relationship with the Thai police.

My understanding of Dr Pornthip's relationship with Thai police was that she had the annoying habit of finding and then revealing the 'uncomfortable' truth which contradicted the police version of events in several otherwise 'perfect' investigations.

When one sees the obvious 'stage managed' beach crime scene from the few (non-police) photos available, it's no surprise she was overlooked, in favour of the Keystone Cops. Had she been there she wouldn't have had much difficulty in uncovering more 'uncomfortable' truths.

BTW, whilst on the topic of 'crime scene' maybe you could explain why Mon knew where the hoe should have been situated, before the gardener moved it to his garden?

A little correction there, if I may.

We can't be sure that Mon knew where the hoe should have been, as he apparently instructed the gardener/cleaner to put the hoe back where he (the gardener/cleaner) originally saw it.

The question should be how did Mon know a hoe was involved?

[Linky]

There are a couple of posters on here who have difficulty understang what has occired and therefore are posting misleading comments based on wrong sets of facts.

This thread has over 2300 posts.

I suggest those few posters go to post number 1 and continue reading until you get to the end.

It will save the rest of us the time and effort of continually proving you wrong.

[Gweiloman]

I hope the Miller's get their justice and can have closure on their terrible loss.

I think that they are privy to something that we don't know about - maybe something revealed to them by the UK police in their capacity of observing the investigation, of which cannot be given out to the public. Otherwise, why would they want the B2 to go down if they they were not truly convinced of their guilt?

As others have said their is no need for you to continue talking about this it has been answered many times today if you don't agree thats ok but it is not necessary to keep going on about it.

Answered many times today!! where? when? why are you attempting to stifle me?

Keep going on about it!! you deem a maximum of 2 posts on the subject in question persistent? It seems that if I throw a spanner in the works that you retort with these absurd phrases in a collective attempt to stifle me. Well, I am sorry to disappoint you but it won't work as I have just the same right to air my views as you do in a Democratic society!! I thought that forums were supposed to be a platform for discussion on differing views and not a propaganda tool by bully boys.

Otherwise, why would they want the B2 to go down if they they were not truly convinced of their guilt?

Interesting statement. I can give the Miller family the benefit of the doubt, that they believe the B2 to be guilty, based on information provided to them by the relevant authorities. None of us here know what such information could have been.

However, most of us here are privy to the information that has been released via social media etc. And with a few exceptions, most of us (not only here on TV but even a journalist for the Nation) are convinced that the B2 are not guilty. So why is it that some here remain so convinced as to their guilt? Are they privy to "special" information such as that supplied to the Miller family? I doubt it. So the only logical conclusion has to be that they have a secret agenda.

I don't believe in karma but there are days when I wish that it exists.

[stephenterry]

To : lucky 11

In a previous post you made some derogatory remarks about Khun Pornthip and her relationship with the Thai police.

My understanding of Dr Pornthip's relationship with Thai police was that she had the annoying habit of finding and then revealing the 'uncomfortable' truth which contradicted the police version of events in several otherwise 'perfect' investigations.

When one sees the obvious 'stage managed' beach crime scene from the few (non-police) photos available, it's no surprise she was overlooked, in favour of the Keystone Cops. Had she been there she wouldn't have had much difficulty in uncovering more 'uncomfortable' truths.

BTW, whilst on the topic of 'crime scene' maybe you could explain why Mon knew where the hoe should have been situated, before the gardener moved it to his garden?

A little correction there, if I may.

We can't be sure that Mon knew where the hoe should have been, as he apparently instructed the gardener/cleaner to put the hoe back where he (the gardener/cleaner) originally saw it.

The question should be how did Mon know a hoe was involved?

I think the follow-up question is why did he want it replaced? Or was it a red-herring? And in that case what weapon was used to butcher Hannah's face? I would hope the UK autopsy would shed some light on that.

By rights, if genuine, the hoe handle should have the perp's DNA on it in abundance. But, no, only the victims in the main, with an unidentified male sample and a partial sample, as testified by Ms Pornthip.

It's an unanswered mystery.

[Gweiloman]

There are a couple of posters on here who have difficulty understang what has occired and therefore are posting misleading comments based on wrong sets of facts.

This thread has over 2300 posts.

I suggest those few posters go to post number 1 and continue reading until you get to the end.

It will save the rest of us the time and effort of continually proving you wrong.

If there are posters who are genuinely mistaken or has misunderstood any part of this trial, there are many here (myself included) who would be more than willing and patient enough to try and explain our views and opinions and to try and back it up with reported sources.

The problem is that some are deliberately trying to cloud the issue and to twist words into their own spin.

[joebrown]

According to the defense, and they would say that, wouldn't they? It's the only thing they have, imply that the DNA results are wrong; they passed on the offer to do a retest though, after asking for months for it, too risky to have the results verified I suppose.

Not necessarily risky to have DNA re-tested, but the re-testing would be under the auspices of the RTP and at the least, the DNA and the newer results would have been handled (given to, retrieved, transported by) the RTP. The same RTP who have shown repeatedly they can't be trusted with DNA. The same RTP who have shown how eager and quick they can be at skewing (or making up) DNA results to fit their agenda. The same RTP who have shown they lose things, and make announcements about DNA when they haven't even done the lab work.

I wouldn't want a hungry cougar babysitting little chicks any more than I'd want RTP typing and handling crucial DNA in a murder case.

The same RTP that provided the hoe and other items to be retested and the defense didn't raise any objections about those.

Yes, it's the same police who also inexplicably failed to check Hannah's clothes for DNA. Maybe you could offer an opinion as to why such an 'oversight' was made in this high profile case.

According to the police the hoe was of such insignificance not to warrant a professional forensic check, despite being the alleged murder weapon, and then surprise, surprise 3 sets of DNA are found. The police case is based solely on the unverified semen/DNA allegedly found on Hannah. I assume they felt able to release the hoe for testing, because of the unlikely event of semen/DNA being found on it.

It's obvious to anyone of minimal intelligence that the hoe was not the only weapon, if in fact it was used on David. If, as the police say, it was used to kill him, why has only Hannah's blood been found on it?

[SamuiLoner]

Talking of phones, I wonder what time the last call or message was from either David or Hannah and what was the content.

[fritzzz25]

Talking of phones, I wonder what time the last call or message was from either David or Hannah and what was the content.

A competent police force would have done a "cell tower dump" of every tower on the island and the neighbouring islands. This would have shown every phone connected to the networks, and what time. It would show where they handed off to each tower, thus "tracing" a path of people. Geolocating with cell phones is a common thing these days used in various investigations.

I have worked some cases - one a homicide where a senior was mowed down by a car - and we did a cell tower dump in the location to narrow down suspects. Once we closed the "window" to the few phones in the area, we conducted surveillance, and obtained a warrant to seize pieces of the suspect's car which had paint that matched some left at the scene.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/man-arrested-in-deadly-north-vancouver-hit-and-run-1.762741

[Scott]

Some posts have been reported and removed, some have been allowed to remain and numerous members are on suspension.

Continue with off-topic, inflammatory remarks to other members at your own peril.

[stephenterry]

Notwithstanding there are thousands of report pages for the judges to plough through, plus closing statements by both sets of lawyers what are the chances of an aquittal?

The RTP have stated they have semen samples extracted from female victim and that matches the B2 DNA. They have not provided this evidence to the court, and have refused to permit a defence forensic expert to examine their records. The UK autopsy contradicts the Thai autopsy, by stating there is no evidence of rape, nor bite marks, and providing photos to substantiate it.

How will the judges play this out? As it stands, the prosecution haven't proved this aspect of their case beyond reasonable doubt. However, what has not been revealed to anyone on here is the complete trial record and the judges summation of what the witnesses testified.

I consider Ms Pornthip's testimony will swing the decision to a not guilty verdict - but TIT, so who can tell.

[Thaidream]

It doesn't matter who found the phone- it proves nothing. However , what was on the phone could provide a clue as to what happened. The prosecution has proved nothing- they have not supplied a sufficient motive; they have not supplied a chain of custody log so the DNA evidence is worthless and has to be tossed out; The confessions are worthless because the use of an interpreter taken off the street without any legitimacy stains the confessions. The examination of the police investigation shows leads were not followed; the crime scene was tainted and they presented no type of logical sequence of events. Then there is the question of torture and all that involves. In addition, in everything I have read- nothing has been disclosed as to what happened at the AC bar when the deceased were there and what were the times they were there and left. Were any witnesses identified who were there and what were their statements. There was one witness who came forward on this board and claimed he saw nothing but he never provided times; who else was there; how many people were there at the time or any real information. There is a reason for this deafening silence.

Based on what I have read- there is no case against the defendants or at least it is not been proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

[RWA]

Guilt not shown in Koh Tao trial

October 13, 2015 1:00 am

A defendant in the Koh Tao rape and murder of two British tourists said he was beaten into confessing.

To demonstrate that genuine rule of law exists in Thailand, justice must be not only be done, but must be seen to be done. Thai Criminal Code S134/4 stipulates that, for any statement given by a suspect to be admissible in court, he must first have been informed of his right to silence and to legal counsel during interrogation. Also, he cannot be tortured or misled.

So the prosecution should provide video of the entire interrogation that shows the suspect's lawyer was present throughout, and require the lawyer to swear under oath as to the video's veracity. But such proof of its compliance with S134/4 has not been provided.

Burin Kantabutra

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Guilt-not-shown-in-Koh-Tao-trial-30270711.html

WOW

hut's off ... THAT is some guy, Khun Burin Kantabutra !!!

[balo]

I would say 99% certainly they will be found guilty as otherwise certain very influential people will lose face, not gonna happen in this country.

I would also say 99% certainly, that they didn't do it & the guys that did are still wandering around Koh Tao doing whatever they like knowing that they will always be protected.

TIT

The probable only way to get true justice if anyone cared enough would be to sink to their level & organise a hit... Sad but true...

With the present evidence I do not agree with you.

Remember the "whole world" is watching , they will not be guilty of murder but they could later end up with another charge, maybe no work permits so they will face deportation or possibly a prison sentence .

As to the influential people like the headmans family , they rely on tourism and even if they lose face they will still try to continue their business whatever that might be.

[RWA]

Guilt not shown in Koh Tao trial

October 13, 2015 1:00 am

A defendant in the Koh Tao rape and murder of two British tourists said he was beaten into confessing.

To demonstrate that genuine rule of law exists in Thailand, justice must be not only be done, but must be seen to be done. Thai Criminal Code S134/4 stipulates that, for any statement given by a suspect to be admissible in court, he must first have been informed of his right to silence and to legal counsel during interrogation. Also, he cannot be tortured or misled.

So the prosecution should provide video of the entire interrogation that shows the suspect's lawyer was present throughout, and require the lawyer to swear under oath as to the video's veracity. But such proof of its compliance with S134/4 has not been provided.

Burin Kantabutra

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Guilt-not-shown-in-Koh-Tao-trial-30270711.html

The accused might well be guilty of the rape and murder, but the evidence presented doesn't prove it. To show that justice has been done, and thus preserve Thailand's image, both defendants must be freed.

Burin Kantabutra

So Burin Kantabutra supports to have murderers been freed because the prosecution didn't provide enough evidence?

YES baby!!!

Precisely THAT!

That is simply what the LAW is all about!

[AleG]

Notwithstanding there are thousands of report pages for the judges to plough through, plus closing statements by both sets of lawyers what are the chances of an aquittal?

The RTP have stated they have semen samples extracted from female victim and that matches the B2 DNA. They have not provided this evidence to the court, and have refused to permit a defence forensic expert to examine their records. The UK autopsy contradicts the Thai autopsy, by stating there is no evidence of rape, nor bite marks, and providing photos to substantiate it.

How will the judges play this out? As it stands, the prosecution haven't proved this aspect of their case beyond reasonable doubt. However, what has not been revealed to anyone on here is the complete trial record and the judges summation of what the witnesses testified.

I consider Ms Pornthip's testimony will swing the decision to a not guilty verdict - but TIT, so who can tell.

The prosecution has presented the DNA evidence in court, this is a fact; just because you don't like it you can't pretend it is not true.

Also they haven't refused to have the evidence reexamined, the defense declined to re test it, again just because you would rather prefer something to be true doesn't make it so.

You are entitled to your own opinions but not to your own facts.

When the verdict is read in December the judge will use the evidence that you say doesn't exists to arrive to a conclusion, in the meantime if you want to remain in denial suit yourself, but try to refrain from spreading misinformation.

[AleG]

Guilt not shown in Koh Tao trial

October 13, 2015 1:00 am

A defendant in the Koh Tao rape and murder of two British tourists said he was beaten into confessing.

To demonstrate that genuine rule of law exists in Thailand, justice must be not only be done, but must be seen to be done. Thai Criminal Code S134/4 stipulates that, for any statement given by a suspect to be admissible in court, he must first have been informed of his right to silence and to legal counsel during interrogation. Also, he cannot be tortured or misled.

So the prosecution should provide video of the entire interrogation that shows the suspect's lawyer was present throughout, and require the lawyer to swear under oath as to the video's veracity. But such proof of its compliance with S134/4 has not been provided.

Burin Kantabutra

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Guilt-not-shown-in-Koh-Tao-trial-30270711.html

The accused might well be guilty of the rape and murder, but the evidence presented doesn't prove it. To show that justice has been done, and thus preserve Thailand's image, both defendants must be freed.

Burin Kantabutra

So Burin Kantabutra supports to have murderers been freed because the prosecution didn't provide enough evidence?

I can hardly think of anything more removed from the concept of Justice than a statement like that; justice being done by letting people go free even if they are guilty of murder?

That's the "Justice" some people are rooting for?

[HUH]

Guilt not shown in Koh Tao trial

October 13, 2015 1:00 am

A defendant in the Koh Tao rape and murder of two British tourists said he was beaten into confessing.

To demonstrate that genuine rule of law exists in Thailand, justice must be not only be done, but must be seen to be done. Thai Criminal Code S134/4 stipulates that, for any statement given by a suspect to be admissible in court, he must first have been informed of his right to silence and to legal counsel during interrogation. Also, he cannot be tortured or misled.

So the prosecution should provide video of the entire interrogation that shows the suspect's lawyer was present throughout, and require the lawyer to swear under oath as to the video's veracity. But such proof of its compliance with S134/4 has not been provided.

Burin Kantabutra

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Guilt-not-shown-in-Koh-Tao-trial-30270711.html

Good piece. They accused are facing a death penalty, proof is essential beyond reasonable doubt.

[HUH]

I would say 99% certainly they will be found guilty as otherwise certain very influential people will lose face, not gonna happen in this country.

I would also say 99% certainly, that they didn't do it & the guys that did are still wandering around Koh Tao doing whatever they like knowing that they will always be protected.

TIT

The probable only way to get true justice if anyone cared enough would be to sink to their level & organise a hit... Sad but true...

With the present evidence I do not agree with you.

Remember the "whole world" is watching , they will not be guilty of murder but they could later end up with another charge, maybe no work permits so they will face deportation or possibly a prison sentence .

As to the influential people like the headmans family , they rely on tourism and even if they lose face they will still try to continue their business whatever that might be.

I tend to agree with you there currently unless anything else significant comes up. The accused will be found not guilty of rape and murder but will then be held in custody until they are deported after having been found guilty or work permit and theft charges. As far as I know theft at night is far more serious than theft in the daytime.

[stephenterry]

Notwithstanding there are thousands of report pages for the judges to plough through, plus closing statements by both sets of lawyers what are the chances of an aquittal?

The RTP have stated they have semen samples extracted from female victim and that matches the B2 DNA. They have not provided this evidence to the court, and have refused to permit a defence forensic expert to examine their records. The UK autopsy contradicts the Thai autopsy, by stating there is no evidence of rape, nor bite marks, and providing photos to substantiate it.

How will the judges play this out? As it stands, the prosecution haven't proved this aspect of their case beyond reasonable doubt. However, what has not been revealed to anyone on here is the complete trial record and the judges summation of what the witnesses testified.

I consider Ms Pornthip's testimony will swing the decision to a not guilty verdict - but TIT, so who can tell.

The prosecution has presented the DNA evidence in court, this is a fact; just because you don't like it you can't pretend it is not true.

Also they haven't refused to have the evidence reexamined, the defense declined to re test it, again just because you would rather prefer something to be true doesn't make it so.

You are entitled to your own opinions but not to your own facts.

When the verdict is read in December the judge will use the evidence that you say doesn't exists to arrive to a conclusion, in the meantime if you want to remain in denial suit yourself, but try to refrain from spreading misinformation.

Not bothering to go over the same ground time and again. I'll let someone else point out the misinformation contained in the above response to my factual statement.

[RWA]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy

democracy - noun

: a form of government in which people choose leaders by voting

: a country ruled by democracy

: an organization or situation in which everyone is treated equally and has equal rights

Did you forget what happened May 22 2014?

No I don't - it was one of the best days in Thailand's history where a dictatorial regime was replaced due to abusing the democratic process!!

We can all look forward to a true democracy in 2016/17.

AMEN !!!

[catsanddogs]

Talking of phones, I wonder what time the last call or message was from either David or Hannah and what was the content.

It was reported in the press that Mr Miller said he had spoken recently with his son not long before his death.