Koh Tao murders: 2 DNA profiles from alleged murder weapon do not match defendants' DNA

[CharlieH]

Off topic/ derailing posts and responses removed. This thread is not about " French man Dimitri ".

9) You will not post inflammatory messages on the forum, or attempt to disrupt discussions to upset its participants, or trolling. Trolling can be defined as the act of purposefully antagonizing other people on the internet by posting controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

[cyberfarang]

Whether the B2 are involved or not, I also believe there are killers on the lose, probably one or more people very prominent on the island. I think that if not for all the international attention the case has received, the B2 would have conveniently been laid to rest long ago.

My feelings reach out to the families, it is just horrible and can only hope that they receive true justice.

I doubt the families may ever receive any justice whatsoever,

for they don't seem to actively seek it out

I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes, neither do you or anyone else.

All I know is that the families on all sides must be going through hell and of course they must be seeking justice for their children. Yours is a ridiculous statement.

[HUH]

Andy Hall ‏@Atomicalandy 3h3 hours ago

@AirTerminal101 but a lot of the torture alleged in form of humiliation/verbal threats to instill fear. Much torture without wounds too.

Andy Hall ‏@Atomicalandy 3h3 hours ago

@AirTerminal101 Zaw Lin's chest... Medical professionals, even prosecution witnesses acknowledged bruising/pain on Zaw Lin's chest.

[Nigeone]

I have friends live in koh tao. Their say burma boys no kill the farang

Mmmm do your friends by any chance say who did ??

[berybert]

I am amazed that a few people are now beginning to think the Burmese are keeping quiet and are prepared to take the fall for some Thai mafia.

And the reason for this is they will do a few months jail then be freed with big bucks. All with the backing of the RTP.

And the Burmese are playing along with this because they have belief and faith in the word of the RTP.

You people really need to stand back a bit and have a rethink.

[Basil B]

I have friends live in koh tao. Their say burma boys no kill the farang

You are not the first and probable not the last to quote the "jungle drums" of Koh Tao...

Unfortunately without hard facts, and locals who are not prepared to tell all they know, this IMHO is heading for probably one of the greatest miscarriages of justice in the history of Thailand.

[Darkknight666]

YOU are talking about Koh Tao being a dangerous place to visit. I am simply comparing the dangers of going to Koh Tao as to visiting the US.

It is a fair comparison to make - put it this way, where would you feel safer, walking around or drinking in a bar in Koh Tao or in the heart of gangster territory in the Bronx?

Rather be in Compton, Watts, Oakland etc than Koh Tao... At least their crimes like these take priority and we nail the animals 9/10 times.

Thing about Koh Tao is, obviously, some folks are above the (barely existent) law.

Yes I'll take the Bronx. Or even queens.

[balo]

If new member mokeem can contribute with more than one post to tell us more about his friends on KT, I am sure it will be appreciated.

[smedly]

YOU are talking about Koh Tao being a dangerous place to visit. I am simply comparing the dangers of going to Koh Tao as to visiting the US.

It is a fair comparison to make - put it this way, where would you feel safer, walking around or drinking in a bar in Koh Tao or in the heart of gangster territory in the Bronx?

The dangers are not comparable. If I was a pretty young female I would heed the UK advice and avoid koh tao because of the dangers of rape and murder. I also wouldn't go anywhere near a gangster environment in case I got caught in the crossfire. On balance I would avoid both.

How many people can you name that have been murdered or raped in Koh Tao.

All of my research came up with 2 people murdered and 1 rape.

Koh Tao now, is one of the safest Thai Islands you could go to.

and you believe it would all be reported - are you really that naive, 99.9999% of people posting here all understand and have had first hand experience of serious crimes here that go unreported - some you cannot hide when there are bodies found on a beach on a beautiful island bashed to a pulp, the muggings the night before are not worth a mention....right

[RWA]

Whether the B2 are involved or not, I also believe there are killers on the lose, probably one or more people very prominent on the island. I think that if not for all the international attention the case has received, the B2 would have conveniently been laid to rest long ago.

My feelings reach out to the families, it is just horrible and can only hope that they receive true justice.

I doubt the families may ever receive any justice whatsoever,

for they don't seem to actively seek it out

I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes, neither do you or anyone else.

All I know is that the families on all sides must be going through hell and of course they must be seeking justice for their children. Yours is a ridiculous statement.

I said ACTIVELY seeking Justice! (not just blindly and quietly EXPECTING some )

What I mean is that I would perhaps try to fund-rise another amount of money to cover at least an initial costs for a private investigation to try to obtain certain DNA samples material (not that difficult though), witness and expert-professional's statements / evaluations.

Asking me WHY, would be a ridiculous question.

I may even try to send an open letter to the PM, asking humbly for his help to investigate certain prosecution (professional officials) perjuries during the court hearings

I may even try to co-operate with the defense, asking humbly for certain subpoenas to be issued to get my daughter's clothes that she wore when found on the beach, my son's iPhone for forensic expertise, along with a certain CCTV footage, phone call records, airport passenger boarding list of certain early morning flights, certain witness police reports (French and others), .... many, many, a way too many other things I would certainly do in order to get a justice in this case ...

Wouldn't you ...?!

Edited October 15, 2015 by RWA

[ttthailand]

We can all think what we want but we really don't know anything. DNA does it match or not ? Running man, we think we know who it is but can't prove. Call history, bank records, video who left island..... We don't really know anything. The RTP and news papers give so much misinformation that it gets all twisted.

It is them (Thais) against farangs and about saving face and cover ups. I have given up all hope of the truth being found on this or anything Thai.

[Dogmatix]

For the sake of clarification I don't think I was suggesting that British police were involved in Thai police corruption in this thread. I was referring to their cooperation with RTP. Which has already been admitted, eg the several police forces that interviewed potential witnesses on behalf of RTP and kept the results of those investigations secret under a confidentiality agreement, despite the fact they were assisting in a capital murder investigation. I was suggesting that, following the outcry about police and the FCO apparently assisting a foreign police force in a capital murder case, both would be more wary of providing open assistance explaining why the official involvement in the last minute presentation of the unverified and possibly irrelevant even if it had been verified phone evidence could only have come from the Thai Embassy, not from UK authorities, even if the latter were involved behind the scenes.

I don't really think it is likely that British police were paid off. I think it is more likely that a decision was made high up to treat them as if they were confreres from a respectable first world police force, ignoring copious evidence to the contrary, in the interests of good relations and future cooperation. Later they argued that this line of least resistance approach was somehow in the public interest.

[happy Joe]

I have friends live in koh tao. Their say burma boys no kill the farang

Your friends would be therefore the real killers?

[Dogmatix]

It seems unfortunate that the defence had to place so much emphasis on the allegations of torture, which, although undoubtedly true, could no more be proven beyond a reasonable doubt than the defendants' commission of the rape and murders. That highlights the utterly unsound basis of this trial. The forced confessions were not only retracted but were inadmissible under Thai law, as pointed out by Ajarn Burin in his oped piece, because the defendants were not informed of their rights to remain silent and to have lawyers present.

The defence lawyers presumably knew that the prosecution would present the forced confessions as one of the two main planks of their case, along with the police's unverifiable DNA match from the tape that didn't take place.

They were also aware that the court would routinely accept forced confessions without Miranda rights, since this must be an every day occurrence in Thai courts.

In addition they were severely hampered in performing what should have been their main task of proving that the defendants could not have committed the crimes by the refusal by prosecutors and police to allow them access to the most critical evidence. That would include the DNA samples, the crime scene photographs, the victims' clothing, the CCTV footage etc etc.

[Dogmatix]

If the defence can secure an acquittal in such an unsound trial where they had to labour against two main pieces of evidence, the forced confessions and the unverified DNA match, both of which should clearly have been inadmissible, and in spite of the enormous 'national interests' pressure to convict, it will be nothing short of a miracle.

I think it far more likely that the judges will take the line of least resistance and convict and sentence to death, relying on the 'integrity' of police evidence, which, after all, is the norm in courts up and down the country.

Then they can kick the can down the road to the appellate and supreme courts. if the defendants and the defence live long enough and still have enough money and energy to secure acquittals from either of these more sophisticated courts, it will be several years hence. The public will have forgotten about the murders and new big shots will be in charge of the police and the government. Moreover the real perpetrators will be quite safe by then, as the chances of reopening an effective investigation will be nil.

But, meanwhile, how many more young foreign tourists will have to die to appease this god of impunity?

Edited October 15, 2015 by Dogmatix

[fritzzz25]

If the defence can secure an acquittal in such an unsound trial where they had to labour against two main pieces of evidence, the forced confessions and the unverified DNA match, both of which should clearly have been inadmissible, and in spite of the enormous 'national interests' pressure to convict, it will be nothing short of a miracle.

I think it far more likely that the judges will take the line of least resistance and convict and sentence to death, relying on the 'integrity' of police evidence, which, after all, is the norm in courts up and down the country.

Then they can kick the can down the road to the appellate and supreme courts. if the defendants and the defence live long enough and still have enough money and energy to secure acquittals from either of these more sophisticated courts, it will be several years hence. The public will have forgotten about the murders and new big shots will be in charge of the police and the government. Moreover the real perpetrators will be quite safe by then, as the chances of reopening an effective investigation will be nil.

But, meanwhile, how many more young foreign tourists will have to die to appease this god of impunity?

Here is my take on it.

The prosecution knows the case is full of fatal flaws. If the judge convicts, the case stays main stream. It will get dragged out and looked over at a higher level. There will be greater scrutiny there, and a CHANCE that justice would prevail. Then, there would be some cops and prosecutors being looked at.

Also, I am sure there would be some surreptitious gathering of evidence from "others" such as their DNA from a discarded butt, a dirty napkin, a tossed away bottle, etc by some people who want the REAL killers found to be handed over to the defence team.

An acquittal at the lowest level would make it "all go away" and just be left as a "whodunnit" while the cops keep collecting $$$$$ to keep quiet for years and years.....

[mookem]

I have friends live in koh tao. Their say burma boys no kill the farang

Mmmm do your friends by any chance say who did ??

Friends of I. Their say everyone no it is big family has big power very strong. But every body to be scary

[mookem]

If new member mokeem can contribute with more than one post to tell us more about his friends on KT, I am sure it will be appreciated.

I name mookem. I be a woman. Friends of i. Their open restaurent in koh tao.

[mookem]

I have friends live in koh tao. Their say burma boys no kill the farang

Your friends would be therefore the real killers?

mookem sorry. English of i no very good. Firends of i. Their no kill the farang too.

[Nigeone]

I have friends live in koh tao. Their say burma boys no kill the farang

Your friends would be therefore the real killers?

mookem sorry. English of i no very good. Firends of i. Their no kill the farang too.

Thank you Mookem...for your efforts to tell...can you say why you say this please?

[Nigeone]

Mookem...You not live on Koh Tao??...just your friends..yes ?

[Nigeone]

If the defence can secure an acquittal in such an unsound trial where they had to labour against two main pieces of evidence, the forced confessions and the unverified DNA match, both of which should clearly have been inadmissible, and in spite of the enormous 'national interests' pressure to convict, it will be nothing short of a miracle.

I think it far more likely that the judges will take the line of least resistance and convict and sentence to death, relying on the 'integrity' of police evidence, which, after all, is the norm in courts up and down the country.

Then they can kick the can down the road to the appellate and supreme courts. if the defendants and the defence live long enough and still have enough money and energy to secure acquittals from either of these more sophisticated courts, it will be several years hence. The public will have forgotten about the murders and new big shots will be in charge of the police and the government. Moreover the real perpetrators will be quite safe by then, as the chances of reopening an effective investigation will be nil.

But, meanwhile, how many more young foreign tourists will have to die to appease this god of impunity?

Here is my take on it.

The prosecution knows the case is full of fatal flaws. If the judge convicts, the case stays main stream. It will get dragged out and looked over at a higher level. There will be greater scrutiny there, and a CHANCE that justice would prevail. Then, there would be some cops and prosecutors being looked at.

Also, I am sure there would be some surreptitious gathering of evidence from "others" such as their DNA from a discarded butt, a dirty napkin, a tossed away bottle, etc by some people who want the REAL killers found to be handed over to the defence team.

An acquittal at the lowest level would make it "all go away" and just be left as a "whodunnit" while the cops keep collecting $$$$$ to keep quiet for years and years.....

You could be right..certainly a way out with as you say minimum problem..always assuming the defense has sufficient funds if it did go to appeal...I'm 100% sure it's a hot potatoe in Thai circles and while individuals I'm sure don't give a toss the PM will be concerned I'm sure with everything else going on ie human rights fishing etc. He had he not committed and endorsed this perfect case !! might have been dealing with this matter differently...Its sad when 'Face' means more than 2 people's lives and the possibility of jailing the real perps..

[StealthEnergiser]

If new member mokeem can contribute with more than one post to tell us more about his friends on KT, I am sure it will be appreciated.

I name mookem. I be a woman. Friends of i. Their open restaurent in koh tao.

Hello Mookem

name of the person ?

[RWA]

I have friends live in koh tao. Their say burma boys no kill the farang

Your friends would be therefore the real killers?

???! ... what a weird conclusion, Happy Joe?!

[Nigeone]

PM sent to person with story to tell....maybe?! I'm sure you all can read between this rather cryptic message.

[smedly]

It seems unfortunate that the defence had to place so much emphasis on the allegations of torture, which, although undoubtedly true, could no more be proven beyond a reasonable doubt than the defendants' commission of the rape and murders. That highlights the utterly unsound basis of this trial. The forced confessions were not only retracted but were inadmissible under Thai law, as pointed out by Ajarn Burin in his oped piece, because the defendants were not informed of their rights to remain silent and to have lawyers present.

The defence lawyers presumably knew that the prosecution would present the forced confessions as one of the two main planks of their case, along with the police's unverifiable DNA match from the tape that didn't take place.

They were also aware that the court would routinely accept forced confessions without Miranda rights, since this must be an every day occurrence in Thai courts.

In addition they were severely hampered in performing what should have been their main task of proving that the defendants could not have committed the crimes by the refusal by prosecutors and police to allow them access to the most critical evidence. That would include the DNA samples, the crime scene photographs, the victims' clothing, the CCTV footage etc etc.

This is going to sound like a weird post and I will try and explain what I mean as best as I can -

Apart from the interviews (torture as you put it) were the accused had no legal council (illegal IMO) no recordings.....nothing

Court proceedings basically come down to arguments - the prosecution present their case and the defense try to argue against it on behalf of the defendants - ok so we all know that, if you haven't been in court you have seen a fairly good representation on TV

In order for the defense council to do their job they must be presented with a factual case to argue against presented by the prosecution, lets take that thought to an extreme and work backwards, suppose the prosecution in this case stood up in court and said - the accused were on the beach that night (we all agree) and therefore they must be guilty, the only possible reply to that from defense council is confirmation - yes they were on the beach that night

So in very simplistic terms the prosecution has made their case and the defense have made theirs, they all agree so they must be guilty.

Expanding on that - prosecution say we have a DNA match connecting the accused to the victim, defense say show us the DNA we want to test and verify that evidence - oh sorry we no longer have that at which point a Judge should intervene and say - sorry that is not admissible in my court (replace DNA with GUN and you will get my meaning)

The point being and again very basic and simplistic, this case in terms of arguments left the defense council with very little to actually argue against because the prosecution didn't present anything viable, yes the defense and accused testified and covered the illegal interviews (which were illegal - fact) but in all honesty there was little else for defense council to do, it was a case of how do we fill in time here, ok we can get the accused to testify the last 2 days (which I said before was a mistake), we can get Pontip (expert) to test the Hoe for DNA ok all well and good but there was little else for them to do, how do you argue against a case when there is no real argument presented

We had the gun and it was a match but we worked so hard on it there is nothing left - it was exhausted

Oh the phone found at the crime scene did not belong to any of the victims so we never tested it

The murder weapon was missing when we arrived at the scene, what murder weapon ? the hoe, we left it right there and when we arrived back the gardener had removed it, we made him put it back

[happy Joe]

I have friends live in koh tao. Their say burma boys no kill the farang

Your friends would be therefore the real killers?

???! ... what a weird conclusion, Happy Joe?!

Apart from investigators only credible information come from murderers or their direct confidants.

All other notices that they come from neighbors or forum detectives are only pure speculation.

[HUH]

Your friends would be therefore the real killers?

???! ... what a weird conclusion, Happy Joe?!

Apart from investigators only credible information come from murderers or their direct confidants.

All other notices that they come from neighbors or forum detectives are only pure speculation.

The biggest pile of pure s@it speculation I've seen for a long while

[Nigeone]

I have friends live in koh tao. Their say burma boys no kill the farang

Your friends would be therefore the real killers?

???! ... what a weird conclusion, Happy Joe?!

Apart from investigators only credible information come from murderers or their direct confidants.

All other notices that they come from neighbors or forum detectives are only pure speculation.

I'm sorry Happy Joe..but that is factually incorrect....and especially in a crime like this that's gone on for so long and has been noticeable by the silencing of witnesses and media...along with the threats well documented and witnessed on national news..

[B166ER]

.... if one has studied the history of the land you'd find that cover/frame ups are no stranger to it. Albeit to many others as well of course. There is one in particular that sticks in my mind and as far as importance goes you can't get much higher. If it can happen there.....what chance does this case have? They will have a conviction one way or another.

"what we wish, we readily believe , and what we ourselves think, we imagine others think also" ....