Interview about new Chiangmai Immigration office

[Sparkles]

NJ forget about 5 years ago .Go to wikipedia today and you will see the Chiang Mai Metropolitan Area has a population approaching 1 million repeat metroplitan area NOT PROVINCE

muang Chiang Mai has more than 1 Million people, it is for sure the second biggest city, also by universities and colleges

That sounds a lot more realistic than "200,000".

How often do they do a census here? Look at the student population, expat population for a start.

the last time I saw this subject was about 5 years ago and
I believe Chiang Mai was about number 7 on the list. Having lived in cities of a million I see nothing wrong with the 200,000 figure give or take on it. The province of Chiang Mai may have about a million. Can't comment on that as I have not seen it all.

[CMNightRider]

So....when my retirement extension comes up in January, I should be able to go when the office opens, get a number and having all my paperwork ready to go, be served a few hours later and out the door. Is this correct?

If immigration has in fact opened its own "agent service," doesn't that indicate that they are purposefully not aiming to serve expats and tourists as a matter of course? I mean if their operations are run smoothly and efficiently, there would be little or no need for any agents.

As for the comment about finding a student to stand in line for me, or get married and have the wife do it, well, that's only a topical solution -- we need to cure the patient.

By the way, two thoughts:

1. What is the need by government to have expats report every 90 days? Has this ever prevented a crime or solved one? Has it benefited either the foreigner or the government in any meaningful way?

2. Why do we have to submit copies of every Thai immigration-stamped page of our passports? What does immigration actually do with all that paper -- which they have had copies of since 2006 in my case? What could possibly be the point of having nine sets of copies of my passport?

Why, during these interviews with immigration, are these basic questions never brought up?

I'm surprised more people haven't questioned the requirement for expats reporting to immigration every 90 days. I asked one of the immigration officers about this requirement a couple of years ago. He stated, it enables immigration officers to locate foreigners that are here illegally or wanted by their home countries.

Thailand does attract some people who are on the run from law enforcement but somehow I can't imagine any of these people would comply with this requirement nor can I imagine a person being in this country illegally would show up at immigration for their 90 day report.

I believe the 90 day requirement along with all the copies from our passports are as mind boggling to immigration as it is to expats, because none of them really knows the reasoning behind these requirements either. In spite of this, Chiang Mai, is still a great retirement destination.

[MESmith]

So....when my retirement extension comes up in January, I should be able to go when the office opens, get a number and having all my paperwork ready to go, be served a few hours later and out the door. Is this correct?

If immigration has in fact opened its own "agent service," doesn't that indicate that they are purposefully not aiming to serve expats and tourists as a matter of course? I mean if their operations are run smoothly and efficiently, there would be little or no need for any agents.

As for the comment about finding a student to stand in line for me, or get married and have the wife do it, well, that's only a topical solution -- we need to cure the patient.

By the way, two thoughts:

1. What is the need by government to have expats report every 90 days? Has this ever prevented a crime or solved one? Has it benefited either the foreigner or the government in any meaningful way?

2. Why do we have to submit copies of every Thai immigration-stamped page of our passports? What does immigration actually do with all that paper -- which they have had copies of since 2006 in my case? What could possibly be the point of having nine sets of copies of my passport?

Why, during these interviews with immigration, are these basic questions never brought up?

I'm surprised more people haven't questioned the requirement for expats reporting to immigration every 90 days. I asked one of the immigration officers about this requirement a couple of years ago. He stated, it enables immigration officers to locate foreigners that are here illegally or wanted by their home countries.

Thailand does attract some people who are on the run from law enforcement but somehow I can't imagine any of these people would comply with this requirement nor can I imagine a person being in this country illegally would show up at immigration for their 90 day report.

I believe the 90 day requirement along with all the copies from our passports are as mind boggling to immigration as it is to expats, because none of them really knows the reasoning behind these requirements either. In spite of this, Chiang Mai, is still a great retirement destination.

And why the need for a photo, when they take a digital pic?

[cmsally]

So....when my retirement extension comes up in January, I should be able to go when the office opens, get a number and having all my paperwork ready to go, be served a few hours later and out the door. Is this correct?

If immigration has in fact opened its own "agent service," doesn't that indicate that they are purposefully not aiming to serve expats and tourists as a matter of course? I mean if their operations are run smoothly and efficiently, there would be little or no need for any agents.

As for the comment about finding a student to stand in line for me, or get married and have the wife do it, well, that's only a topical solution -- we need to cure the patient.

By the way, two thoughts:

1. What is the need by government to have expats report every 90 days? Has this ever prevented a crime or solved one? Has it benefited either the foreigner or the government in any meaningful way?

2. Why do we have to submit copies of every Thai immigration-stamped page of our passports? What does immigration actually do with all that paper -- which they have had copies of since 2006 in my case? What could possibly be the point of having nine sets of copies of my passport?

Why, during these interviews with immigration, are these basic questions never brought up?

I'm surprised more people haven't questioned the requirement for expats reporting to immigration every 90 days. I asked one of the immigration officers about this requirement a couple of years ago. He stated, it enables immigration officers to locate foreigners that are here illegally or wanted by their home countries.

Thailand does attract some people who are on the run from law enforcement but somehow I can't imagine any of these people would comply with this requirement nor can I imagine a person being in this country illegally would show up at immigration for their 90 day report.

I believe the 90 day requirement along with all the copies from our passports are as mind boggling to immigration as it is to expats, because none of them really knows the reasoning behind these requirements either. In spite of this, Chiang Mai, is still a great retirement destination.

I believe the 90 day thing has always been there on the books,but was never enforced years back. Can't remember when they started enforcing it but certainly 20 years ago it wasn't required.

[masuk]

When CM Immigration gave a presentation to the CM Expats last year, there were 200 requests for the 90 day reporting to be explained.

We were told that it was to control crime in the country.

As you will know, it's been outstandingly successful in areas such as Pattaya and Phuket.

[islandee]

I offer my experience today at Chiang Mai Immigration on getting a retirement extension.

0250: The time that No. 1 man said he had arrived. He said he was alone for about an hour before anyone else showed up.

0400: Second person appeared.

0430: Third one showed.

0445: Fourth (me) I arrived. These counts were for farangs wanting retirement extensions; there were 12 people in total waiting for all Immigration services.

When I arrived at Promenada around 0430, there were barricades at all vehicle entrances to the parking areas. I circled the whole block once looking for an open entrance and found none ('twould have been crazy to back up on Rte 3029); so I stopped where I had started, at the entrance on the Middle Ring Road (Rte 3029), moved the barricades, drove in (and did not replace the barricades), found the underbuilding parking roped off, so parked outside beside the entrance to that sheltered car park. The other people present at that hour I learned had come on motorbikes which allowed them the freedom to simply go around the barricades. Those using red pickup taxi service didn't start arriving till around 0545 --- they said the trucks simply weren't available any earlier.

At Promenada, the lights didn't go on until they weren't needed: simply put, it was DARK. NO security was ever evident. There was an unsecured power extension cord across one walkway and one water hose --- good tripping points in the dark. The Immigration Office appears, at least this morn, to have been in the lee of the building, so mosquitoes were bad. We had already sorted out which of us were going for retirement extensions and in what order, so it was possible to leave the immediate area and go to the middle of the concourse where there was a breeze to flush away the mosquitoes.

0545: The 16th person arrived for a retirement extension.

At this point, there was no organization amongst those waiting; but there were enough people to make it worth while to form lines. There were four signs on stands for various categories of immigration service turned to the wall. We turned them around. Took chairs and seated ourselves in proper order in front of the sign titled 'retirement / medical case', to wait (with four youthful placeholders then making their purpose known by filling in, I think, positions 7 through 10, to make the 20 in the quota). Others wanting other categories of immigration services followed our example, so much as was allowed by the categories on the three additional signs. With regard to 'medical cases' in our line, I saw none.

0600: A coffee bar opened adjacent to the waiting area outside Immigration. An iced latte was B65.

0700: The Tom-Tom coffee-restaurant on the next level up supposedly opened for Immigration customers, offering a 10% discount (that showed on an advertising sign adjacent to the waiting area). The coffee at the bar was sufficient for me. But all one had to do to claim the 10% discount upstairs was to flash a passport: that, of course, works fine until you've left your passport for processing and want a 10% discount breakfast after.

0800: The photo / copy shop to the west side of Immigration appeared to open.

0815?: Immigration staff came out to issue numbers. 20 were issued for retirement extensions. Those with numbers 11 through 20 were told that they would be processed after lunch. There were probably another 15 behind them who were told to stand by, that perhaps more help would be coming from the old office and they could be processed too. That didn't occur and they were eventually told to come back tomorrow.

There was a desk outside where one could get one's paperwork pre-checked. That included gluing in the mandatory photo.

0830: The office opened on time, except that retirement extension customer No. 1 didn't get called till about 0900.

As I mentioned above, the sign behind which we had queued in the early morn read 'retirement / medical case': two categories on one sign. There were two desks inside, side-by-side, one labeled 'retirement' and the other 'medical case'. At those desks, the retirement extension processing day started with an Immigration Officer at each, but one almost immediately disappeared with a pile of paper for 15-20 minutes. The person who was being processed had not been in our queue: it turned out that there may or may not be an on-line reservation system in place now --- however there had been one in place back whenever, for making reservations for today, 16 October, and those with reservations got first access. The queue customers started processing around 0900 --- when the second Immigration Officer had returned. The on-line types got processed at the 'retirement' desk, while we queue-types got processed at the 'medical case' desk. So two officers were processing retirement extensions, and each should have been able to handle a quota of 20, for a total of 40 processed by the office each day (regardless of however many less than 20 might have received on-line reservations). Assuming rumors are true that the on-line reservation system has now been stopped, and when the backlog of reservations has been worked through, then the first 40 to appear in person on any morn should expect to be processed that day.

0945: I, No. 4, was called. Paperpushing was swift, very swift, done in 10 minutes. Under such circumstances, I wasn't concerned that the officer was distant: he was efficient and I hadn't come for exchanging niceties anyway. I had included a copy of my driver's license as proof of residence: that obviously wasn't required for it was immediately handed back to me. Another five minutes for a checker, who seemed to also be the office computer guru, and his time was divided between checking my paperwork and getting a reluctant printer to perform. A sign near the Immigration entrance advised that 20-30 minutes should be allowed for processing each retirement extension request. So, assuming about 20 minutes per request, that works out to three an hour, or ten (or 11) in the morn and the same in the PM, which meets the quota of 20 per day stated in various locations.

1000: I was done, except that I had to come back at 1300 to pick up my processed passport (the staff member with signature authority started the day at the old office). So, note that the sign over the entrance reading 'One stop service' is wrong, at least at present. It also occurred to me after leaving that I had been issued no receipt for my passport, paperwork, and B1900 (when I got back and checked with others, the story was the same); but passport and receipt were properly provided in the afternoon.

1300: Passport was ready. I don't know when those with numbers 11 through 20 who were to be processed after lunch received their passports.

Retrospective: Last year, I appeared at the old Immigration Office at 0545 to be No. 33 in that day's queue. The daily cutoff then for retirement extension 'walk-ins' was 35; and there was an additional input from on-line registration, whatever that might be --- possibly up to 10, but usually less because that process covered all categories of visa processing. Now, at Promenada, it's just 20 for 'walk-ins', plus, again, an unknown number who have reserved from on-line. I guess it's reasonable to assume that the second desk can process the same number of 20, so capacity is now 40 per day (but it must be assumed that the second desk is not being fully utilized since on-line reservations would still have been limited to 10, for all categories). And that combined capacity would appear to approximately match the number being processed last year at this time; ie, 35 plus, say, an average of five from on-line each day. So, not much has changed, but the location. The PA system is relatively intelligible --- better than before, though there are no numbers displayed overhead. Lighting is good. The place is clean and reasonably neat. I don't recall seeing any standup writing tables for filling out forms. Forms are available inside.

The one complaint I heard was from two separate people who had to go back to the old office for additional documentation which was not yet being processed at the Promenada location. And with that cleared up, they could again have the privilege of queuing up at four or five on another morning for Immigration services. No doubt there were other complaints that I didn't hear.

BTW, my thanks to ThaiVisa contributors for keeping Immigration requirements current.

In reading this over, I see that I'm not unhappy with the results of Immigration having moved its services to Promenada; however in actual fact, I should be complaining bitterly about a very basic item that hasn't been at all affected by the move: the need to queue up at such an early hour in order to ensure the processing of routine governmental requirements in a timely manner. It is absurd. I was aghast when it was first deemed necessary however many years ago, but I concede that I've been worn down since. But, with a fresh look just now, I see it as still absurd, and insulting.

[rawhod]

In reading this over, I see that I'm not unhappy with the results of Immigration having moved its services to Promenada; however in actual fact, I should be complaining bitterly about a very basic item that hasn't been at all affected by the move: the need to queue up at such an early hour in order to ensure the processing of routine governmental requirements in a timely manner. It is absurd. I was aghast when it was first deemed necessary however many years ago, but I concede that I've been worn down since. But, with a fresh look just now, I see it as still absurd, and insulting.

Very well said...

If we were to ask the question "Why does Thailand allow aliens to retire in Thailand?"

I suspect that the answer must be that it is deemed to be beneficial to Thailand. Or surely they would not allow it.

My immediate thoughts are; to promote Thailand; to encourage investment in Thailand; to raise income for Thailand. In other words, for financial reasons.

So, you would think it would be in their best interest to pander a little to those "Retirees" to make their stay enjoyable and as little inconvenienced as possible. Thereby encouraging them to recommend Thailand as a retirement destination, as a tourist destination and as an expanding economy worthy of investment.

But what do they do...make it difficult to "ensure the processing of routine government requirements in a timely manner" and make it "absurd and insulting".

[Trujillo]

May I ask how old you are, Islandee? What about the other retirees?

Those with numbers 11 through 20 were told that they would be processed after lunch. There were probably another 15 behind them who were told to stand by, that perhaps more help would be coming from the old office and they could be processed too. That didn't occur and they were eventually told to come back tomorrow.

So if expats make a fair attempt to come to extend their visa, coming very much earlier than the immigration office opens, and are turned away because they didn't come in the middle of the night to stand in line, what kind of cruel and stupid Groundhog Day situation is this? It's demeaning and disrespectful. Thai society respects and looks up to the elderly? Yeah, right....

Why not have someone organize a real interview with real questions and follow-ups to the chief? And don't accept the pablum BS so many officials think we will willingly swallow.

Example:

When CM Immigration gave a presentation to the CM Expats last year, there were 200 requests for the 90 day reporting to be explained.

We were told that it was to control crime in the country.

Officials think this sort of vacuous and unsupported statement will be accepted whole cloth by Issan hayseeds, and that foreigners are similarly gullible and incurious but just have more money. It's insulting and the next "interview" should address this.

[NancyL]

May I ask how old you are, Islandee? What about the other retirees?

Those with numbers 11 through 20 were told that they would be processed after lunch. There were probably another 15 behind them who were told to stand by, that perhaps more help would be coming from the old office and they could be processed too. That didn't occur and they were eventually told to come back tomorrow.

So if expats make a fair attempt to come to extend their visa, coming very much earlier than the immigration office opens, and are turned away because they didn't come in the middle of the night to stand in line, what kind of cruel and stupid Groundhog Day situation is this? It's demeaning and disrespectful. Thai society respects and looks up to the elderly? Yeah, right....

Why not have someone organize a real interview with real questions and follow-ups to the chief? And don't accept the pablum BS so many officials think we will willingly swallow.

Example:

When CM Immigration gave a presentation to the CM Expats last year, there were 200 requests for the 90 day reporting to be explained.

We were told that it was to control crime in the country.

Officials think this sort of vacuous and unsupported statement will be accepted whole cloth by Issan hayseeds, and that foreigners are similarly gullible and incurious but just have more money. It's insulting and the next "interview" should address this.

Trujilio, it is not within the power of the Chief of CM Immigration to eliminate 90 day reports. I know you'd love to have a "real interview" with him with follow-up questions, but he didn't write the law and he didn't decide that it should be enforced after it had been ignored for a number of years.

Same thing about the need for all the photocopies or photo taken at the time of the interview when there's one already stuck on the form.

If someone has an opportunity to talk with him, wouldn't it be more productive to ask him questions about something within the Chief's area of control?

You're just demonstrating one reason why Immigration officials don't want to go out open meetings to take unfiltered questions. Their English isn't very good and they know they're going to be asked questions about policies and procedures over which they have no control.

P.S. Don't get wrong -- I agree that these policies and procedures don't make any sense, but to blame the Chief of CM Immigration for them is like blaming the local policeman in your hometown for the speed limits.

[NancyL]

I offer my experience today at Chiang Mai Immigration on getting a retirement extension.

0250: The time that No. 1 man said he had arrived. He said he was alone for about an hour before anyone else showed up.

0400: Second person appeared.

0430: Third one showed.

0445: Fourth (me) I arrived. These counts were for farangs wanting retirement extensions; there were 12 people in total waiting for all Immigration services.

When I arrived at Promenada around 0430, there were barricades at all vehicle entrances to the parking areas. I circled the whole block once looking for an open entrance and found none ('twould have been crazy to back up on Rte 3029); so I stopped where I had started, at the entrance on the Middle Ring Road (Rte 3029), moved the barricades, drove in (and did not replace the barricades), found the underbuilding parking roped off, so parked outside beside the entrance to that sheltered car park. The other people present at that hour I learned had come on motorbikes which allowed them the freedom to simply go around the barricades. Those using red pickup taxi service didn't start arriving till around 0545 --- they said the trucks simply weren't available any earlier.

At Promenada, the lights didn't go on until they weren't needed: simply put, it was DARK. NO security was ever evident. There was an unsecured power extension cord across one walkway and one water hose --- good tripping points in the dark. The Immigration Office appears, at least this morn, to have been in the lee of the building, so mosquitoes were bad. We had already sorted out which of us were going for retirement extensions and in what order, so it was possible to leave the immediate area and go to the middle of the concourse where there was a breeze to flush away the mosquitoes.

0545: The 16th person arrived for a retirement extension.

At this point, there was no organization amongst those waiting; but there were enough people to make it worth while to form lines. There were four signs on stands for various categories of immigration service turned to the wall. We turned them around. Took chairs and seated ourselves in proper order in front of the sign titled 'retirement / medical case', to wait (with four youthful placeholders then making their purpose known by filling in, I think, positions 7 through 10, to make the 20 in the quota). Others wanting other categories of immigration services followed our example, so much as was allowed by the categories on the three additional signs. With regard to 'medical cases' in our line, I saw none.

0600: A coffee bar opened adjacent to the waiting area outside Immigration. An iced latte was B65.

0700: The Tom-Tom coffee-restaurant on the next level up supposedly opened for Immigration customers, offering a 10% discount (that showed on an advertising sign adjacent to the waiting area). The coffee at the bar was sufficient for me. But all one had to do to claim the 10% discount upstairs was to flash a passport: that, of course, works fine until you've left your passport for processing and want a 10% discount breakfast after.

0800: The photo / copy shop to the west side of Immigration appeared to open.

0815?: Immigration staff came out to issue numbers. 20 were issued for retirement extensions. Those with numbers 11 through 20 were told that they would be processed after lunch. There were probably another 15 behind them who were told to stand by, that perhaps more help would be coming from the old office and they could be processed too. That didn't occur and they were eventually told to come back tomorrow.

There was a desk outside where one could get one's paperwork pre-checked. That included gluing in the mandatory photo.

0830: The office opened on time, except that retirement extension customer No. 1 didn't get called till about 0900.

As I mentioned above, the sign behind which we had queued in the early morn read 'retirement / medical case': two categories on one sign. There were two desks inside, side-by-side, one labeled 'retirement' and the other 'medical case'. At those desks, the retirement extension processing day started with an Immigration Officer at each, but one almost immediately disappeared with a pile of paper for 15-20 minutes. The person who was being processed had not been in our queue: it turned out that there may or may not be an on-line reservation system in place now --- however there had been one in place back whenever, for making reservations for today, 16 October, and those with reservations got first access. The queue customers started processing around 0900 --- when the second Immigration Officer had returned. The on-line types got processed at the 'retirement' desk, while we queue-types got processed at the 'medical case' desk. So two officers were processing retirement extensions, and each should have been able to handle a quota of 20, for a total of 40 processed by the office each day (regardless of however many less than 20 might have received on-line reservations). Assuming rumors are true that the on-line reservation system has now been stopped, and when the backlog of reservations has been worked through, then the first 40 to appear in person on any morn should expect to be processed that day.

0945: I, No. 4, was called. Paperpushing was swift, very swift, done in 10 minutes. Under such circumstances, I wasn't concerned that the officer was distant: he was efficient and I hadn't come for exchanging niceties anyway. I had included a copy of my driver's license as proof of residence: that obviously wasn't required for it was immediately handed back to me. Another five minutes for a checker, who seemed to also be the office computer guru, and his time was divided between checking my paperwork and getting a reluctant printer to perform. A sign near the Immigration entrance advised that 20-30 minutes should be allowed for processing each retirement extension request. So, assuming about 20 minutes per request, that works out to three an hour, or ten (or 11) in the morn and the same in the PM, which meets the quota of 20 per day stated in various locations.

1000: I was done, except that I had to come back at 1300 to pick up my processed passport (the staff member with signature authority started the day at the old office). So, note that the sign over the entrance reading 'One stop service' is wrong, at least at present. It also occurred to me after leaving that I had been issued no receipt for my passport, paperwork, and B1900 (when I got back and checked with others, the story was the same); but passport and receipt were properly provided in the afternoon.

1300: Passport was ready. I don't know when those with numbers 11 through 20 who were to be processed after lunch received their passports.

Retrospective: Last year, I appeared at the old Immigration Office at 0545 to be No. 33 in that day's queue. The daily cutoff then for retirement extension 'walk-ins' was 35; and there was an additional input from on-line registration, whatever that might be --- possibly up to 10, but usually less because that process covered all categories of visa processing. Now, at Promenada, it's just 20 for 'walk-ins', plus, again, an unknown number who have reserved from on-line. I guess it's reasonable to assume that the second desk can process the same number of 20, so capacity is now 40 per day (but it must be assumed that the second desk is not being fully utilized since on-line reservations would still have been limited to 10, for all categories). And that combined capacity would appear to approximately match the number being processed last year at this time; ie, 35 plus, say, an average of five from on-line each day. So, not much has changed, but the location. The PA system is relatively intelligible --- better than before, though there are no numbers displayed overhead. Lighting is good. The place is clean and reasonably neat. I don't recall seeing any standup writing tables for filling out forms. Forms are available inside.

The one complaint I heard was from two separate people who had to go back to the old office for additional documentation which was not yet being processed at the Promenada location. And with that cleared up, they could again have the privilege of queuing up at four or five on another morning for Immigration services. No doubt there were other complaints that I didn't hear.

BTW, my thanks to ThaiVisa contributors for keeping Immigration requirements current.

In reading this over, I see that I'm not unhappy with the results of Immigration having moved its services to Promenada; however in actual fact, I should be complaining bitterly about a very basic item that hasn't been at all affected by the move: the need to queue up at such an early hour in order to ensure the processing of routine governmental requirements in a timely manner. It is absurd. I was aghast when it was first deemed necessary however many years ago, but I concede that I've been worn down since. But, with a fresh look just now, I see it as still absurd, and insulting.

Islandee -- thank you for your excellent write-up

It really belongs in the pinned thread about Prom. Imm. at the top of the forum.

If I read what you've written correctly, it seems that the agents didn't start to show up until 6 am, at first light. It would seem that we foreigners are the ones making our own problems by coming early. If everyone would just wait until 6 am to come, everything would be OK.

Oh, incidentally as someone who helps out people with medical extensions from time-to-time, I think it was a big mistake to put the word "medical" in the sign for the retirement extension desk. They do very few medical extensions each day and when they do, they're very accommodating about working in the person when they arrive. Last time I assisted someone, it was the officer who does re-entry permits who processed the medical extension because he wasn't busy at the time.

[Trujillo]

NancyL:

It would seem that we foreigners are the ones making our own problems by coming early.

Wow. What an amazing statement. Blame the lambs for their own slaughter....

I did not say or intimate that the immigration chief could change things outside of his purview; however, as the high official of immigration, it is incumbent upon him to explain policy.

You're just demonstrating one reason why Immigration officials don't want to go out open meetings to take unfiltered questions. Their English isn't very good and they know they're going to be asked questions about policies and procedures over which they have no control.

"Unfiltered questions?" What an apologist for the obfuscation by high immigration officials.

I never said or implied that an interview with the chief should be conducted in English; that would be ridiculous and I would have assumed that was clearly understood, but as it apparently was not for you, I will state clearly that any interaction with the chief would be in the Thai language.

I also take issue with your notion that the chief has no control over the fact that people -- many elderly people -- have to stand in line at 3 or 4 in the morning JUST TO GET A NUMBER FOR THE DAY, and that the chief has no control over this.

I am 100 percent certain that a competent and independent evaluation of the workflow, allocation of personnel and resources would result in a more efficiently run immigration office. Seriously, if immigration was a real for-profit business in the private sector it would be an abject failure and would likely be bankrupt in no time.

I believe that NancyL has something to do with rubbing shoulders with those in the business community here. Are you willing to tell us that either one or a group of talented expats could not assess immigration and eliminate many of its issues?

It's not about saving face for the immigration chief, it's about making a government office (that affects all of us expats) run correctly and treats all with fairness and dignity, the same fairness and respect that a Thai expat could expect to receive in a Western country's immigration office.

[MESmith]

Even without an online appointments system, they could allow people to visit the office to make an appointment. This is the major failing in the system & can be easily corrected.

[CMNightRider]

I offer my experience today at Chiang Mai Immigration on getting a retirement extension.

0250: The time that No. 1 man said he had arrived. He said he was alone for about an hour before anyone else showed up.

0400: Second person appeared.

0430: Third one showed.

0445: Fourth (me) I arrived. These counts were for farangs wanting retirement extensions; there were 12 people in total waiting for all Immigration services.

When I arrived at Promenada around 0430, there were barricades at all vehicle entrances to the parking areas. I circled the whole block once looking for an open entrance and found none ('twould have been crazy to back up on Rte 3029); so I stopped where I had started, at the entrance on the Middle Ring Road (Rte 3029), moved the barricades, drove in (and did not replace the barricades), found the underbuilding parking roped off, so parked outside beside the entrance to that sheltered car park. The other people present at that hour I learned had come on motorbikes which allowed them the freedom to simply go around the barricades. Those using red pickup taxi service didn't start arriving till around 0545 --- they said the trucks simply weren't available any earlier.

At Promenada, the lights didn't go on until they weren't needed: simply put, it was DARK. NO security was ever evident. There was an unsecured power extension cord across one walkway and one water hose --- good tripping points in the dark. The Immigration Office appears, at least this morn, to have been in the lee of the building, so mosquitoes were bad. We had already sorted out which of us were going for retirement extensions and in what order, so it was possible to leave the immediate area and go to the middle of the concourse where there was a breeze to flush away the mosquitoes.

0545: The 16th person arrived for a retirement extension.

At this point, there was no organization amongst those waiting; but there were enough people to make it worth while to form lines. There were four signs on stands for various categories of immigration service turned to the wall. We turned them around. Took chairs and seated ourselves in proper order in front of the sign titled 'retirement / medical case', to wait (with four youthful placeholders then making their purpose known by filling in, I think, positions 7 through 10, to make the 20 in the quota). Others wanting other categories of immigration services followed our example, so much as was allowed by the categories on the three additional signs. With regard to 'medical cases' in our line, I saw none.

0600: A coffee bar opened adjacent to the waiting area outside Immigration. An iced latte was B65.

0700: The Tom-Tom coffee-restaurant on the next level up supposedly opened for Immigration customers, offering a 10% discount (that showed on an advertising sign adjacent to the waiting area). The coffee at the bar was sufficient for me. But all one had to do to claim the 10% discount upstairs was to flash a passport: that, of course, works fine until you've left your passport for processing and want a 10% discount breakfast after.

0800: The photo / copy shop to the west side of Immigration appeared to open.

0815?: Immigration staff came out to issue numbers. 20 were issued for retirement extensions. Those with numbers 11 through 20 were told that they would be processed after lunch. There were probably another 15 behind them who were told to stand by, that perhaps more help would be coming from the old office and they could be processed too. That didn't occur and they were eventually told to come back tomorrow.

There was a desk outside where one could get one's paperwork pre-checked. That included gluing in the mandatory photo.

0830: The office opened on time, except that retirement extension customer No. 1 didn't get called till about 0900.

As I mentioned above, the sign behind which we had queued in the early morn read 'retirement / medical case': two categories on one sign. There were two desks inside, side-by-side, one labeled 'retirement' and the other 'medical case'. At those desks, the retirement extension processing day started with an Immigration Officer at each, but one almost immediately disappeared with a pile of paper for 15-20 minutes. The person who was being processed had not been in our queue: it turned out that there may or may not be an on-line reservation system in place now --- however there had been one in place back whenever, for making reservations for today, 16 October, and those with reservations got first access. The queue customers started processing around 0900 --- when the second Immigration Officer had returned. The on-line types got processed at the 'retirement' desk, while we queue-types got processed at the 'medical case' desk. So two officers were processing retirement extensions, and each should have been able to handle a quota of 20, for a total of 40 processed by the office each day (regardless of however many less than 20 might have received on-line reservations). Assuming rumors are true that the on-line reservation system has now been stopped, and when the backlog of reservations has been worked through, then the first 40 to appear in person on any morn should expect to be processed that day.

0945: I, No. 4, was called. Paperpushing was swift, very swift, done in 10 minutes. Under such circumstances, I wasn't concerned that the officer was distant: he was efficient and I hadn't come for exchanging niceties anyway. I had included a copy of my driver's license as proof of residence: that obviously wasn't required for it was immediately handed back to me. Another five minutes for a checker, who seemed to also be the office computer guru, and his time was divided between checking my paperwork and getting a reluctant printer to perform. A sign near the Immigration entrance advised that 20-30 minutes should be allowed for processing each retirement extension request. So, assuming about 20 minutes per request, that works out to three an hour, or ten (or 11) in the morn and the same in the PM, which meets the quota of 20 per day stated in various locations.

1000: I was done, except that I had to come back at 1300 to pick up my processed passport (the staff member with signature authority started the day at the old office). So, note that the sign over the entrance reading 'One stop service' is wrong, at least at present. It also occurred to me after leaving that I had been issued no receipt for my passport, paperwork, and B1900 (when I got back and checked with others, the story was the same); but passport and receipt were properly provided in the afternoon.

1300: Passport was ready. I don't know when those with numbers 11 through 20 who were to be processed after lunch received their passports.

Retrospective: Last year, I appeared at the old Immigration Office at 0545 to be No. 33 in that day's queue. The daily cutoff then for retirement extension 'walk-ins' was 35; and there was an additional input from on-line registration, whatever that might be --- possibly up to 10, but usually less because that process covered all categories of visa processing. Now, at Promenada, it's just 20 for 'walk-ins', plus, again, an unknown number who have reserved from on-line. I guess it's reasonable to assume that the second desk can process the same number of 20, so capacity is now 40 per day (but it must be assumed that the second desk is not being fully utilized since on-line reservations would still have been limited to 10, for all categories). And that combined capacity would appear to approximately match the number being processed last year at this time; ie, 35 plus, say, an average of five from on-line each day. So, not much has changed, but the location. The PA system is relatively intelligible --- better than before, though there are no numbers displayed overhead. Lighting is good. The place is clean and reasonably neat. I don't recall seeing any standup writing tables for filling out forms. Forms are available inside.

The one complaint I heard was from two separate people who had to go back to the old office for additional documentation which was not yet being processed at the Promenada location. And with that cleared up, they could again have the privilege of queuing up at four or five on another morning for Immigration services. No doubt there were other complaints that I didn't hear.

BTW, my thanks to ThaiVisa contributors for keeping Immigration requirements current.

In reading this over, I see that I'm not unhappy with the results of Immigration having moved its services to Promenada; however in actual fact, I should be complaining bitterly about a very basic item that hasn't been at all affected by the move: the need to queue up at such an early hour in order to ensure the processing of routine governmental requirements in a timely manner. It is absurd. I was aghast when it was first deemed necessary however many years ago, but I concede that I've been worn down since. But, with a fresh look just now, I see it as still absurd, and insulting.

Thank you so much for taking the time to document what has been going on for several years. It is nothing short of pathetic, that anyone should have to show up in the wee hours of the morning just to get a queue to get into immigration. I wish more people like you would come forward to shine a spotlight on what expats have to go through to accomplish immigration requirements.

I have read so many posts where people repeatedly try to make excuses for immigrations inability to process expats in a timely manner. Some write how immigration are trying their best and how they were smiling while working or just give them a little more time. I am not visiting this office for some sort of social visit. I'm going to immigration to satisfy what is required of me to live in this country, and I expect immigration to do their part in processing me in a timely manner. This should not include having to get up at zero dark thirty in the morning, and spending the day with these people nor should it mean the only way I can get into immigration is to hire a visa agent. This is totally unacceptable on any number of levels.

The one positive thing immigration did do, was to throw us a bone, by initiating the "online queue system." This enabled us to show up at this circus with an appointment. I was very grateful for this, although there were only 10 slots available daily. Evidently, some people requested immigration to add more slots, and expressed their concern over having to be sitting at their computers at 12:00 am in order to receive an appointment. According to what I read, this "online queue system" was discontinued due to expat complaints. You have got to be kidding me.

After reading about the meeting Nancy had with immigration, I fully expect to have to resort to using a visa service this year in order to receive my one year retirement extension.

[true blue]

imho,immigration services in the past was not perfect but okay, one could get bye and achieve your needs (90 day ext of stay),until the do so called gooders,got on there band wagon,and started to make waves,thinking there way was more important than there hosts,thai culture do not like interference or be dictated to by a outsider,or questioned for that matter,just my two pennys worth.

[hml367]

imho,immigration services in the past was not perfect but okay, one could get bye and achieve your needs (90 day ext of stay),until the do so called gooders,got on there band wagon,and started to make waves,thinking there way was more important than there hosts,thai culture do not like interference or be dictated to by a outsider,or questioned for that matter,just my two pennys worth.

I agree.

[habfan]

imho,immigration services in the past was not perfect but okay, one could get bye and achieve your needs (90 day ext of stay),until the do so called gooders,got on there band wagon,and started to make waves,thinking there way was more important than there hosts,thai culture do not like interference or be dictated to by a outsider,or questioned for that matter,just my two pennys worth.

At present I totally agree!

I never had much of an issue with the old office, I knew the quirks and the expected wait times (a couple of hours now and then) and with online queue for extensions you could plan accordingly.

It now seems complaints to the immigration department and the questioning of their efficiency have led us to an even worse off situation.

[Trujillo]

the do so called gooders,got on there band wagon,and started to make waves,thinking there way was more important than there hosts,thai culture do not like interference or be dictated to by a outsider,or questioned for that matter

What is a "do so called gooders"?

It now seems complaints to the immigration department and the questioning of their efficiency have led us to an even worse off situation.

How does complaining about having to line up at 4am to maybe get a number to be served that day lead to "an even worse off situation"?

Are you inferring that immigration heard our complaints and are purposefully making things even more difficult? If you are right, it speaks volumes about the integrity of immigration....

Hey, all we are asking here is that this office run itself professionally and give some respect to those who are trying to do the right thing regarding immigration requirements.

I don't know what countries you people are from, but would this sort of behavior be tolerated there? Of course not.

Anyway, please explain what do-gooders are in relation to this situation, and how the immigration situation has worsened because of complaints and the questioning of their "efficiency."

[habfan]

the do so called gooders,got on there band wagon,and started to make waves,thinking there way was more important than there hosts,thai culture do not like interference or be dictated to by a outsider,or questioned for that matter

What is a "do so called gooders"?

It now seems complaints to the immigration department and the questioning of their efficiency have led us to an even worse off situation.

How does complaining about having to line up at 4am to maybe get a number to be served that day lead to "an even worse off situation"?

Are you inferring that immigration heard our complaints and are purposefully making things even more difficult? If you are right, it speaks volumes about the integrity of immigration....

Hey, all we are asking here is that this office run itself professionally and give some respect to those who are trying to do the right thing regarding immigration requirements.

I don't know what countries you people are from, but would this sort of behavior be tolerated there? Of course not.

Anyway, please explain what do-gooders are in relation to this situation, and how the immigration situation has worsened because of complaints and the questioning of their "efficiency."

My comment was referring to the fact that the explanation for the cancellation of the online queue for extensions was complaints.

I also thought the move to Promenada was to address the questioning of the old office's efficiency and from the many posts I've read this does not seem to be the case.

Speaking for myself living in another province (Lampang) certainly the cancellation of the online queue for extensions has definitely made things worse!

Fortunately twice a month a couple of Chiangmai immigration officers drive up to Lampang City to process 90 day reports for those of us in the vicinity.

[CMNightRider]

the do so called gooders,got on there band wagon,and started to make waves,thinking there way was more important than there hosts,thai culture do not like interference or be dictated to by a outsider,or questioned for that matter

What is a "do so called gooders"?

It now seems complaints to the immigration department and the questioning of their efficiency have led us to an even worse off situation.

How does complaining about having to line up at 4am to maybe get a number to be served that day lead to "an even worse off situation"?

Are you inferring that immigration heard our complaints and are purposefully making things even more difficult? If you are right, it speaks volumes about the integrity of immigration....

Hey, all we are asking here is that this office run itself professionally and give some respect to those who are trying to do the right thing regarding immigration requirements.

I don't know what countries you people are from, but would this sort of behavior be tolerated there? Of course not.

Anyway, please explain what do-gooders are in relation to this situation, and how the immigration situation has worsened because of complaints and the questioning of their "efficiency."

My comment was referring to the fact that the explanation for the cancellation of the online queue for extensions was complaints.

I also thought the move to Promenada was to address the questioning of the old office's efficiency and from the many posts I've read this does not seem to be the case.

Speaking for myself living in another province (Lampang) certainly the cancellation of the online queue for extensions has definitely made things worse!

Fortunately twice a month a couple of Chiangmai immigration officers drive up to Lampang City to process 90 day reports for those of us in the vicinity.

CM Immigration stated the reason they cancelled the "online queue" was because expats complained about it but that isn't the reason it was cancelled. The current sad state of affairs with CM immigration is no way the fault of expat complaints or immigration officials in Bangkok. All fingers point in one direction. Please read some of the earlier posts.

[northernjohn]

the do so called gooders,got on there band wagon,and started to make waves,thinking there way was more important than there hosts,thai culture do not like interference or be dictated to by a outsider,or questioned for that matter

What is a "do so called gooders"?

It now seems complaints to the immigration department and the questioning of their efficiency have led us to an even worse off situation.

How does complaining about having to line up at 4am to maybe get a number to be served that day lead to "an even worse off situation"?

Are you inferring that immigration heard our complaints and are purposefully making things even more difficult? If you are right, it speaks volumes about the integrity of immigration....

Hey, all we are asking here is that this office run itself professionally and give some respect to those who are trying to do the right thing regarding immigration requirements.

I don't know what countries you people are from, but would this sort of behavior be tolerated there? Of course not.

Anyway, please explain what do-gooders are in relation to this situation, and how the immigration situation has worsened because of complaints and the questioning of their "efficiency."

My comment was referring to the fact that the explanation for the cancellation of the online queue for extensions was complaints.

I also thought the move to Promenada was to address the questioning of the old office's efficiency and from the many posts I've read this does not seem to be the case.

Speaking for myself living in another province (Lampang) certainly the cancellation of the online queue for extensions has definitely made things worse!

Fortunately twice a month a couple of Chiangmai immigration officers drive up to Lampang City to process 90 day reports for those of us in the vicinity.

I think there were to many complaints about it not really being available to every one. Ten people a day is not every one. I know of one fellow who had two computers going at midnight in order to get a reservation. He got through on one and not the other.

[CMNightRider]

My comment was referring to the fact that the explanation for the cancellation of the online queue for extensions was complaints.

I also thought the move to Promenada was to address the questioning of the old office's efficiency and from the many posts I've read this does not seem to be the case.

Speaking for myself living in another province (Lampang) certainly the cancellation of the online queue for extensions has definitely made things worse!

Fortunately twice a month a couple of Chiangmai immigration officers drive up to Lampang City to process 90 day reports for those of us in the vicinity.

I think there were to many complaints about it not really being available to every one. Ten people a day is not every one. I know of one fellow who had two computers going at midnight in order to get a reservation. He got through on one and not the other.

Do you really believe shutting down the "online queue system" because some people asked immigration for more appointment slots, is an approipate response instead of improving this service? It is clear to figure out who looses by this decision. Try to think who benefits from this discontinued service. This is not rocket science or some sort of conspiracy theory as another poster suggested.

Apologising or condoning this ridicules response because some people asked immigration to improve this vital service, serves absolute no purpose other than to encourage immigration to continue making it more difficult for expats to abide by Thailand's requirements to live here.

My heart goes out to the elderly and disabled expats that are forced to spend the day or maybe two days sitting outside immigrations air-conditioned office, which generally takes immigration officers a few minutes to process their paper work. Somehow, this doesn't seem acceptable.

Pointing out how people waiting to be processed can simply enjoy the day dinning and shopping at Promenada is both insulting and condescending.

.

[MESmith]

My 2 appointments made on-line were successful at the first attempt.

[sappersrest]

As I stated in a previous post the first five que nos should b given to the elderly say over 75 and disabled people, not very hard to do, especially if the immigration authorities put up a large sign stating this.

[Sparkles]

This whole immigration farce has nothing to do with the location.I couldnt care less where they put it its the lack of staff to process what should be a simple procedure that is the isssue.As I posted before other Imm locations throughout the country are not experiencing "budget from Bangkok excuses"

CM has for the last few years been experiencing a tidal wave of new expat residents, of many nationalities, while the staff numbers have remained the same or maybe even less (what happened to Miss Curley for example who was a revalation on the 90 day desk)

How hard is to train up more staff ? its a simple clerical job that would require a few days training and the money keeps rolling in.

There is more to this issue that we will ever be told.Meanwhile Promenada must be very happy that they have a crowd of foreigners wandering around for the best part of a day waiting for the nod to be processed.They,Promenada, can allocate more space(more rental income) ,more chairs ,dancing girls its all about totally inadequate Immigration staffing levels and the opportunity for Agents to thrive on the unfortunate victims of the CM Immigration policy.

[CMNightRider]

This whole immigration farce has nothing to do with the location.I couldnt care less where they put it its the lack of staff to process what should be a simple procedure that is the isssue.As I posted before other Imm locations throughout the country are not experiencing "budget from Bangkok excuses"

CM has for the last few years been experiencing a tidal wave of new expat residents, of many nationalities, while the staff numbers have remained the same or maybe even less (what happened to Miss Curley for example who was a revalation on the 90 day desk)

How hard is to train up more staff ? its a simple clerical job that would require a few days training and the money keeps rolling in.

There is more to this issue that we will ever be told.Meanwhile Promenada must be very happy that they have a crowd of foreigners wandering around for the best part of a day waiting for the nod to be processed.They,Promenada, can allocate more space(more rental income) ,more chairs ,dancing girls its all about totally inadequate Immigration staffing levels and the opportunity for Agents to thrive on the unfortunate victims of the CM Immigration policy.

Great post. Thank you.

[true blue]

My 2 appointments made on-line were successful at the first attempt.

my last 3 on line appointments, and two for mates were achieved with the minimum of fuss,now its a f-ck-ing nightmare

[Dante99]

"About the on-line queue: Col. Rutjapong said it was discontinued because it can't accommodate two locations and generated many complaints."

If complaining is a reason to discontinue a service then a whole lot of people should shut up before more complaining shuts down more services. HELLO!

[rawhod]

My experience was similar...

My last two appointments for retirement extension were easily made on-line.

With the introduction of the on-line extension appointment system and then the on-line 90 day reporting, I thought that Thai immigration had, at last, put one foot into the 21st century.

The withdrawal of the on-line appointment service and the unreliability of the on-line 90 day reporting has totally reversed that step forward.

[ramrod711]

I had a queue online appointment for 14:00 at immigration yesterday Sept. 17, arrived just before 13:00. The doors opened a few minutes later, everyone sitting outside went inside, I was pleased to see chairs set up as I was under the impression that there was no waiting inside. I went to the information desk to tell them I was present, a young woman in uniform walked up to me and asked me to wait a moment, I told her that my appointment wasn't for another hour. She called me a few moments later, processed my paperwork, which was all in order, told me to return at 16:30 for my passport. I was out the door at 13:30, returned at about 16:20, was called at 16:30 and out the door. I have never hesitated to criticize immigration, but have to give credit for a job well done and a good experience. I should add that I don't live far from Promenada so it wasn't an inconvenience for me to return for my passport, others might not find it so.

[northernjohn]

This whole immigration farce has nothing to do with the location.I couldnt care less where they put it its the lack of staff to process what should be a simple procedure that is the isssue.As I posted before other Imm locations throughout the country are not experiencing "budget from Bangkok excuses"

CM has for the last few years been experiencing a tidal wave of new expat residents, of many nationalities, while the staff numbers have remained the same or maybe even less (what happened to Miss Curley for example who was a revalation on the 90 day desk)

How hard is to train up more staff ? its a simple clerical job that would require a few days training and the money keeps rolling in.

There is more to this issue that we will ever be told.Meanwhile Promenada must be very happy that they have a crowd of foreigners wandering around for the best part of a day waiting for the nod to be processed.They,Promenada, can allocate more space(more rental income) ,more chairs ,dancing girls its all about totally inadequate Immigration staffing levels and the opportunity for Agents to thrive on the unfortunate victims of the CM Immigration policy.

I believe what you say about the rest of the country not having the problems we do here in Chiang Mai. Other locations are not in need of bigger budgets. It is Chiang Mai experiencing so much more growth in the incoming expats that is in need of the money. Bangkok is not going to provide money for a new building that would be built with the proper amount of space to do the job plus allow for growth.

I recall a City Life interview with the past top man. He said Bangkok had approved the hiring of 14 more staff members but would not allow him to do it. Bangkok said they would. To be perfectly honest with you I don't believe the staff is any happier than we are about the way the system is now.