Interview about new Chiangmai Immigration office

[connda]

So....when my retirement extension comes up in January, I should be able to go when the office opens, get a number and having all my paperwork ready to go, be served a few hours later and out the door. Is this correct?

If immigration has in fact opened its own "agent service," doesn't that indicate that they are purposefully not aiming to serve expats and tourists as a matter of course? I mean if their operations are run smoothly and efficiently, there would be little or no need for any agents.

As for the comment about finding a student to stand in line for me, or get married and have the wife do it, well, that's only a topical solution -- we need to cure the patient.

By the way, two thoughts:

1. What is the need by government to have expats report every 90 days? Has this ever prevented a crime or solved one? Has it benefited either the foreigner or the government in any meaningful way?

2. Why do we have to submit copies of every Thai immigration-stamped page of our passports? What does immigration actually do with all that paper -- which they have had copies of since 2006 in my case? What could possibly be the point of having nine sets of copies of my passport?

Why, during these interviews with immigration, are these basic questions never brought up?

I'm surprised more people haven't questioned the requirement for expats reporting to immigration every 90 days. I asked one of the immigration officers about this requirement a couple of years ago. He stated, it enables immigration officers to locate foreigners that are here illegally or wanted by their home countries.

Thailand does attract some people who are on the run from law enforcement but somehow I can't imagine any of these people would comply with this requirement nor can I imagine a person being in this country illegally would show up at immigration for their 90 day report.

I believe the 90 day requirement along with all the copies from our passports are as mind boggling to immigration as it is to expats, because none of them really knows the reasoning behind these requirements either. In spite of this, Chiang Mai, is still a great retirement destination.

I'll bring this up again as a comparison.

Some Thai man was convicted of a crime in Phuket fairly recently, corruption or something of that nature. His sentence was decrease from jail time to parole, and his parole was to report to his parole officer 3 times a year. A convict, a felon, and parolee reports 3 times a year. A foreigner? Reports 5 times a year: 4 address reports and a visa renewal. They just had an article in the news in the last couple of day about how 10% or 30,000 out of 300,000 parolees skip parole each year.

1. So, in anyone's right mind, who is the actual biggest risk?
2. And who does Thailand perceive as the biggest risk?

Answer 1: Convicted felons on parole are the actual biggest threat to societal security

Answer 2: Foreigners are perceived as the biggest threat to societal security

Maybe instead of sending the police out to check all the foreigners at their homes like they did in a knee-jerk reaction to the Erawan bombing, their time would be better spent checking all the convicted felons who are on parole and actually pose a risk to Thai society.

Amazing Thailand.

[connda]

I offer my experience today at Chiang Mai Immigration on getting a retirement extension.

0250: The time that No. 1 man said he had arrived. He said he was alone for about an hour before anyone else showed up.

0400: Second person appeared.

0430: Third one showed.

0445: Fourth (me) I arrived. These counts were for farangs wanting retirement extensions; there were 12 people in total waiting for all Immigration services.

When I arrived at Promenada around 0430, there were barricades at all vehicle entrances to the parking areas. I circled the whole block once looking for an open entrance and found none ('twould have been crazy to back up on Rte 3029); so I stopped where I had started, at the entrance on the Middle Ring Road (Rte 3029), moved the barricades, drove in (and did not replace the barricades), found the underbuilding parking roped off, so parked outside beside the entrance to that sheltered car park. The other people present at that hour I learned had come on motorbikes which allowed them the freedom to simply go around the barricades. Those using red pickup taxi service didn't start arriving till around 0545 --- they said the trucks simply weren't available any earlier.

At Promenada, the lights didn't go on until they weren't needed: simply put, it was DARK. NO security was ever evident. There was an unsecured power extension cord across one walkway and one water hose --- good tripping points in the dark. The Immigration Office appears, at least this morn, to have been in the lee of the building, so mosquitoes were bad. We had already sorted out which of us were going for retirement extensions and in what order, so it was possible to leave the immediate area and go to the middle of the concourse where there was a breeze to flush away the mosquitoes.

0545: The 16th person arrived for a retirement extension.

At this point, there was no organization amongst those waiting; but there were enough people to make it worth while to form lines. There were four signs on stands for various categories of immigration service turned to the wall. We turned them around. Took chairs and seated ourselves in proper order in front of the sign titled 'retirement / medical case', to wait (with four youthful placeholders then making their purpose known by filling in, I think, positions 7 through 10, to make the 20 in the quota). Others wanting other categories of immigration services followed our example, so much as was allowed by the categories on the three additional signs. With regard to 'medical cases' in our line, I saw none.

0600: A coffee bar opened adjacent to the waiting area outside Immigration. An iced latte was B65.

0700: The Tom-Tom coffee-restaurant on the next level up supposedly opened for Immigration customers, offering a 10% discount (that showed on an advertising sign adjacent to the waiting area). The coffee at the bar was sufficient for me. But all one had to do to claim the 10% discount upstairs was to flash a passport: that, of course, works fine until you've left your passport for processing and want a 10% discount breakfast after.

0800: The photo / copy shop to the west side of Immigration appeared to open.

0815?: Immigration staff came out to issue numbers. 20 were issued for retirement extensions. Those with numbers 11 through 20 were told that they would be processed after lunch. There were probably another 15 behind them who were told to stand by, that perhaps more help would be coming from the old office and they could be processed too. That didn't occur and they were eventually told to come back tomorrow.

There was a desk outside where one could get one's paperwork pre-checked. That included gluing in the mandatory photo.

0830: The office opened on time, except that retirement extension customer No. 1 didn't get called till about 0900.

As I mentioned above, the sign behind which we had queued in the early morn read 'retirement / medical case': two categories on one sign. There were two desks inside, side-by-side, one labeled 'retirement' and the other 'medical case'. At those desks, the retirement extension processing day started with an Immigration Officer at each, but one almost immediately disappeared with a pile of paper for 15-20 minutes. The person who was being processed had not been in our queue: it turned out that there may or may not be an on-line reservation system in place now --- however there had been one in place back whenever, for making reservations for today, 16 October, and those with reservations got first access. The queue customers started processing around 0900 --- when the second Immigration Officer had returned. The on-line types got processed at the 'retirement' desk, while we queue-types got processed at the 'medical case' desk. So two officers were processing retirement extensions, and each should have been able to handle a quota of 20, for a total of 40 processed by the office each day (regardless of however many less than 20 might have received on-line reservations). Assuming rumors are true that the on-line reservation system has now been stopped, and when the backlog of reservations has been worked through, then the first 40 to appear in person on any morn should expect to be processed that day.

0945: I, No. 4, was called. Paperpushing was swift, very swift, done in 10 minutes. Under such circumstances, I wasn't concerned that the officer was distant: he was efficient and I hadn't come for exchanging niceties anyway. I had included a copy of my driver's license as proof of residence: that obviously wasn't required for it was immediately handed back to me. Another five minutes for a checker, who seemed to also be the office computer guru, and his time was divided between checking my paperwork and getting a reluctant printer to perform. A sign near the Immigration entrance advised that 20-30 minutes should be allowed for processing each retirement extension request. So, assuming about 20 minutes per request, that works out to three an hour, or ten (or 11) in the morn and the same in the PM, which meets the quota of 20 per day stated in various locations.

1000: I was done, except that I had to come back at 1300 to pick up my processed passport (the staff member with signature authority started the day at the old office). So, note that the sign over the entrance reading 'One stop service' is wrong, at least at present. It also occurred to me after leaving that I had been issued no receipt for my passport, paperwork, and B1900 (when I got back and checked with others, the story was the same); but passport and receipt were properly provided in the afternoon.

1300: Passport was ready. I don't know when those with numbers 11 through 20 who were to be processed after lunch received their passports.

Retrospective: Last year, I appeared at the old Immigration Office at 0545 to be No. 33 in that day's queue. The daily cutoff then for retirement extension 'walk-ins' was 35; and there was an additional input from on-line registration, whatever that might be --- possibly up to 10, but usually less because that process covered all categories of visa processing. Now, at Promenada, it's just 20 for 'walk-ins', plus, again, an unknown number who have reserved from on-line. I guess it's reasonable to assume that the second desk can process the same number of 20, so capacity is now 40 per day (but it must be assumed that the second desk is not being fully utilized since on-line reservations would still have been limited to 10, for all categories). And that combined capacity would appear to approximately match the number being processed last year at this time; ie, 35 plus, say, an average of five from on-line each day. So, not much has changed, but the location. The PA system is relatively intelligible --- better than before, though there are no numbers displayed overhead. Lighting is good. The place is clean and reasonably neat. I don't recall seeing any standup writing tables for filling out forms. Forms are available inside.

The one complaint I heard was from two separate people who had to go back to the old office for additional documentation which was not yet being processed at the Promenada location. And with that cleared up, they could again have the privilege of queuing up at four or five on another morning for Immigration services. No doubt there were other complaints that I didn't hear.

BTW, my thanks to ThaiVisa contributors for keeping Immigration requirements current.

In reading this over, I see that I'm not unhappy with the results of Immigration having moved its services to Promenada; however in actual fact, I should be complaining bitterly about a very basic item that hasn't been at all affected by the move: the need to queue up at such an early hour in order to ensure the processing of routine governmental requirements in a timely manner. It is absurd. I was aghast when it was first deemed necessary however many years ago, but I concede that I've been worn down since. But, with a fresh look just now, I see it as still absurd, and insulting.

Thanks for the detailed info!

[cyberfarang]

So....when my retirement extension comes up in January, I should be able to go when the office opens, get a number and having all my paperwork ready to go, be served a few hours later and out the door. Is this correct?

If immigration has in fact opened its own "agent service," doesn't that indicate that they are purposefully not aiming to serve expats and tourists as a matter of course? I mean if their operations are run smoothly and efficiently, there would be little or no need for any agents.

As for the comment about finding a student to stand in line for me, or get married and have the wife do it, well, that's only a topical solution -- we need to cure the patient.

By the way, two thoughts:

1. What is the need by government to have expats report every 90 days? Has this ever prevented a crime or solved one? Has it benefited either the foreigner or the government in any meaningful way?

2. Why do we have to submit copies of every Thai immigration-stamped page of our passports? What does immigration actually do with all that paper -- which they have had copies of since 2006 in my case? What could possibly be the point of having nine sets of copies of my passport?

Why, during these interviews with immigration, are these basic questions never brought up?

I'm surprised more people haven't questioned the requirement for expats reporting to immigration every 90 days. I asked one of the immigration officers about this requirement a couple of years ago. He stated, it enables immigration officers to locate foreigners that are here illegally or wanted by their home countries.

Thailand does attract some people who are on the run from law enforcement but somehow I can't imagine any of these people would comply with this requirement nor can I imagine a person being in this country illegally would show up at immigration for their 90 day report.

I believe the 90 day requirement along with all the copies from our passports are as mind boggling to immigration as it is to expats, because none of them really knows the reasoning behind these requirements either. In spite of this, Chiang Mai, is still a great retirement destination.

I'll bring this up again as a comparison.

Some Thai man was convicted of a crime in Phuket fairly recently, corruption or something of that nature. His sentence was decrease from jail time to parole, and his parole was to report to his parole officer 3 times a year. A convict, a felon, and parolee reports 3 times a year. A foreigner? Reports 5 times a year: 4 address reports and a visa renewal. They just had an article in the news in the last couple of day about how 10% or 30,000 out of 300,000 parolees skip parole each year.

1. So, in anyone's right mind, who is the actual biggest risk?
2. And who does Thailand perceive as the biggest risk?

Answer 1: Convicted felons on parole are the actual biggest threat to societal security

Answer 2: Foreigners are perceived as the biggest threat to societal security

Maybe instead of sending the police out to check all the foreigners at their homes like they did in a knee-jerk reaction to the Erawan bombing, their time would be better spent checking all the convicted felons who are on parole and actually pose a risk to Thai society.

Amazing Thailand.

I can answer this.

The Thais, criminals or otherwise are the devils they know. Foreigners are the devils they don`t know. We are strangers in their mist and they are cautious of us.

[NancyL]

Actually, it would be a good idea to let your Embassy and Consulate know about incidents of elder abuse at Chiang Mai Immigration. Being told by the staff to arrive at 4 am to be sure to be served and then not leaving with your visa extension and re-entry permit until 5 pm is surely a form of elder abuse. Especially if you watch visa agents jump the queue.

As Connda pointed out, these conditions don't exist in other provinces and our Embassies and Consulates don't treat Thai citizens this way when they come to our facilities to conduct business.

Yes, it is time to let our Embassies and Consulates know about the treatment we're enduring in this province.

You're right, EvenStevens, the Embassies and Consulates don't have a right to ask Thailand to change their Immigration laws, but they can ask for equal and humane enforcement.

[JaseTheBass]

It's not obvious from the Original Post, but it wasn't Don from Don's Life in Thailand blog who conducted the Interviews with the manager of Promenada Mall and the head of CM Immigration. I did and reported it in the newsletter of the Chiang Mai Expats Club on September 14th: https://madmimi.com/p/b65ba6?fe=1&pact=33054517539 Scroll down thru the newsletter for the complete article.

Don copied the interview and put it in his own newsletter and that's what got posted here in ThaiVisa.

Now, to answer the question about "Surely renting space at Promenada costs more than using space they own/rent?"

Immigration is full at their office near the airport. They don't have unused space available. I am under the impression that Promenada mall extended a very good rental rate to the Immigration office, because in the interview Col. Rutjapong mentioned that other provinces are considering similar arrangements with malls. Why own and operate buildings when you can rent more cheaply?

You conveniently forgot to remember the huge place immigration have across the road from Promenada. Wouldn't using that be cheaper than renting at Promenada and maybe using the airport site for regional immigration services?

[Tywais]

It's not obvious from the Original Post, but it wasn't Don from Don's Life in Thailand blog who conducted the Interviews with the manager of Promenada Mall and the head of CM Immigration. I did and reported it in the newsletter of the Chiang Mai Expats Club on September 14th: https://madmimi.com/p/b65ba6?fe=1&pact=33054517539 Scroll down thru the newsletter for the complete article.

Don copied the interview and put it in his own newsletter and that's what got posted here in ThaiVisa.

Now, to answer the question about "Surely renting space at Promenada costs more than using space they own/rent?"

Immigration is full at their office near the airport. They don't have unused space available. I am under the impression that Promenada mall extended a very good rental rate to the Immigration office, because in the interview Col. Rutjapong mentioned that other provinces are considering similar arrangements with malls. Why own and operate buildings when you can rent more cheaply?

You conveniently forgot to remember the huge place immigration have across the road from Promenada. Wouldn't using that be cheaper than renting at Promenada and maybe using the airport site for regional immigration services?

If you remember, at the old office when all the migrant workers had to use it also and the chaos with it in crowding and parking they then shifted them to the adjacent building then out to near Promenada. As such, sharing it may present its own set of problems and more complaints from members.

[hml367]

You conveniently forgot to remember the huge place immigration have across the road from Promenada. Wouldn't using that be cheaper than renting at Promenada and maybe using the airport site for regional immigration services?

Don't forget the beautiful, relatively new Immigration office near Huay Tung Tao.

Edited November 1, 2015 by hml367

[JaseTheBass]

It's not obvious from the Original Post, but it wasn't Don from Don's Life in Thailand blog who conducted the Interviews with the manager of Promenada Mall and the head of CM Immigration. I did and reported it in the newsletter of the Chiang Mai Expats Club on September 14th: https://madmimi.com/p/b65ba6?fe=1&pact=33054517539 Scroll down thru the newsletter for the complete article.

Don copied the interview and put it in his own newsletter and that's what got posted here in ThaiVisa.

Now, to answer the question about "Surely renting space at Promenada costs more than using space they own/rent?"

Immigration is full at their office near the airport. They don't have unused space available. I am under the impression that Promenada mall extended a very good rental rate to the Immigration office, because in the interview Col. Rutjapong mentioned that other provinces are considering similar arrangements with malls. Why own and operate buildings when you can rent more cheaply?

You conveniently forgot to remember the huge place immigration have across the road from Promenada. Wouldn't using that be cheaper than renting at Promenada and maybe using the airport site for regional immigration services?

If you remember, at the old office when all the migrant workers had to use it also and the chaos with it in crowding and parking they then shifted them to the adjacent building then out to near Promenada. As such, sharing it may present its own set of problems and more complaints from members.

Agreed. That's why I suggested the 'Burmese' use the airport office and 'we' use the office opposite Promenada.

[connda]

Actually, it would be a good idea to let your Embassy and Consulate know about incidents of elder abuse at Chiang Mai Immigration. Being told by the staff to arrive at 4 am to be sure to be served and then not leaving with your visa extension and re-entry permit until 5 pm is surely a form of elder abuse. Especially if you watch visa agents jump the queue.

As Connda pointed out, these conditions don't exist in other provinces and our Embassies and Consulates don't treat Thai citizens this way when they come to our facilities to conduct business.

Yes, it is time to let our Embassies and Consulates know about the treatment we're enduring in this province.

You're right, EvenStevens, the Embassies and Consulates don't have a right to ask Thailand to change their Immigration laws, but they can ask for equal and humane enforcement.

I'm thinking that once Ambassador Stevens gets settled in, we should provide him with a summary of our situation here in Chiang Mai, as compared with all the other immigration districts. I believe we have a unique set of issues that do not plague the foreigners at the other Immigration Districts throughout Thailand, and because are collective situation is unique, it may actually get the attention of the Ambassador. And while the Ambassador settles in, Chiang Mai Immigration has the time to complete the transfer of their operations, after which we can more accurately assess the problems, and see if they improve. This is going to take some time and patience.

[cyberfarang]

Bangmai, the special Saturday session at Immigration in September was well received by the members of the Japanese Chiangmai Longstay Life Club (CLL), Chiangmai Expats Club (CEC) and CM Immigration who participated. However, Immigration has been tasked with increased enforcement tasks since the Bangkok bombings -- some reported here on Thai visa -- and they have said they can't spare the manpower for a Saturday session, at least for a while. So, we haven't set a schedule for future sessions.

So, at this time, we don't know if or when a future special session will be scheduled.

just selling u more porky pies

a very nice late afternoon to all

evenstevens, I don't know if you're saying the CEC is selling porky pies or Immigration is.

immigration

BTW while i got u on the phone

any embassy or consulate have no right to interfere with the operations at the zoo, so another mission impossible

keep the good work up, but be warned u will only wear yourself to a frazzle with the zoo

a lovely morning to all

What are the alternatives to show our displeasure at the way we are being treated in Chiang Mai? Are you prepared to turn up at immigration with a sword and a banner or go to the newspapers protesting for a service that offers us more respect?

At least someone is doing something that may have the affect of spreading the word what is happening here. Something is better then nothing and those that are doing nothing have no rights to question the methods of those who are sticking their necks out on our behalf trying to do something.

One way is to form a group specifically designed to deal with grievances and represent expats with immigration problems. Will you be our leader evenstevens?

[northernjohn]

Actually, it would be a good idea to let your Embassy and Consulate know about incidents of elder abuse at Chiang Mai Immigration. Being told by the staff to arrive at 4 am to be sure to be served and then not leaving with your visa extension and re-entry permit until 5 pm is surely a form of elder abuse. Especially if you watch visa agents jump the queue.

As Connda pointed out, these conditions don't exist in other provinces and our Embassies and Consulates don't treat Thai citizens this way when they come to our facilities to conduct business.

Yes, it is time to let our Embassies and Consulates know about the treatment we're enduring in this province.

You're right, EvenStevens, the Embassies and Consulates don't have a right to ask Thailand to change their Immigration laws, but they can ask for equal and humane enforcement.

I'm thinking that once Ambassador Stevens gets settled in, we should provide him with a summary of our situation here in Chiang Mai, as compared with all the other immigration districts. I believe we have a unique set of issues that do not plague the foreigners at the other Immigration Districts throughout Thailand, and because are collective situation is unique, it may actually get the attention of the Ambassador. And while the Ambassador settles in, Chiang Mai Immigration has the time to complete the transfer of their operations, after which we can more accurately assess the problems, and see if they improve. This is going to take some time and patience.

Nothing to assess we already know their is a lack of staff. Also I doubt but you can try that the Ambassador is going to be able to do any thing about it. Bangkok has their own agenda. The very fact that the Promenada is helping out shows that immigration in Chiang Mai is not high on their list.

Besides I believe that the conciliates have spoken with them about it.

[cyberfarang]

OK, evenstevens, (you condescending ****) so you're saying that the embassies and consulates have no right to interfere with the operations at "the zoo"?

Hmm, even when their actions constitute human rights abuses?

Besides, evensteven, I don't understand why you follow and participate in these Immigration threads. You're all smug in your belief that everyone should just use a visa agent. Yes, you do use a very good one -- O.S. Thai Visa. My husband uses them. But the point is that people shouldn't HAVE to use a visa agent to conduct their business.

condensing??? no not at all

u are,!!!!! as my first post said, that you were being sold porky pies( very politely i might add) ,which has resulted in the above very disstateful post in which you have changed the the goal posts around

nancy, i will follow any thread and reply accordingly to my wishes, under the rules of the forum,and do not need your above insane advice, not to do so

and furthermore what right on this forum do u have????, in telling me to butt out of any zoo thread, please advise me . and will act accordingly

are the porky pies, the fatty variety???the zoo just luvs selling them to you,and i can understand why enjoy them

a midnite to all

It seems you are good at critisising others opinions, but shy at committing yourself by independently expressing your own.

No one has changed the goal posts around, and if you are dissatisfied with certain people`s explanations, then why don`t you get off your high cross, charge down to immigration and lay it on the line? Then report back to us with the real facts after you have extracted an account of the situation out of them.

[MilesofSmiles]

To the older guys who have real physical trouble with the standing, waiting, whole debacle of dealing with the immigration office & process....

--- why don't you use a visa agent and save yourself the hassle ?

[NancyL]

To the older guys who have real physical trouble with the standing, waiting, whole debacle of dealing with the immigration office & process....

--- why don't you use a visa agent and save yourself the hassle ?

This is a good alternative for those who can spare the extra money for a visa agent. Not everyone can.

Also, it's a shame that conditions at the office are such that this alternative is necessary. It's not necessary for other dealings with Thai gov't agencies, like applying for a drivers license or obtaining a tax I.D. number and submitting tax forms. I've not had personal experience in dealing with other Thai gov't agencies, but I have the impression one doesn't wait hours and hours to get a work permit either.

[CharlieH]

A quantity of "Bickering" posts between two members has been removed.

Anyone, purposely and deliberately antagonising another member WILL be given a posting Holiday.

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

8) You will not post disruptive or inflammatory messages, vulgarities, obscenities or profanities.

9) You will not post inflammatory messages on the forum, or attempt to disrupt discussions to upset its participants, or trolling. Trolling can be defined as the act of purposefully antagonizing other people on the internet by posting controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

[Thailand]

OK, evenstevens, (you condescending ****) so you're saying that the embassies and consulates have no right to interfere with the operations at "the zoo"?

Hmm, even when their actions constitute human rights abuses?

Besides, evensteven, I don't understand why you follow and participate in these Immigration threads. You're all smug in your belief that everyone should just use a visa agent. Yes, you do use a very good one -- O.S. Thai Visa. My husband uses them. But the point is that people shouldn't HAVE to use a visa agent to conduct their business.

condensing??? no not at all

u are,!!!!! as my first post said, that you were being sold porky pies( very politely i might add) ,which has resulted in the above very disstateful post in which you have changed the the goal posts around

nancy, i will follow any thread and reply accordingly to my wishes, under the rules of the forum,and do not need your above insane advice, not to do so

and furthermore what right on this forum do u have????, in telling me to butt out of any zoo thread, please advise me . and will act accordingly

are the porky pies, the fatty variety???the zoo just luvs selling them to you,and i can understand why enjoy them

a midnite to all

It seems you are good at critisising others opinions, but shy at committing yourself by independently expressing your own.

No one has changed the goal posts around, and if you are dissatisfied with certain people`s explanations, then why don`t you get off your high cross, charge down to immigration and lay it on the line? Then report back to us with the real facts after you have extracted an account of the situation out of them.

Not happening! He would get his sooper dooper visa agent to do it for him.

[connda]

To the older guys who have real physical trouble with the standing, waiting, whole debacle of dealing with the immigration office & process....

--- why don't you use a visa agent and save yourself the hassle ?

The obvious answer?

฿฿฿฿฿฿฿฿฿฿฿฿฿฿฿฿฿฿

Many older folk are on a fixed income and live in Thailand to maximize their spending power of the pensions that they do get. Not all older folk can afford it. For my marriage extension the least expensive quote I got was approximately 8K if I remember correctly. I can afford that, but not everyone can. That's about $225 USD, which in the case of a US expat only drawing social security, could be a significant chunk of change. I'm not sure what the cheapest prices are for Retirement extensions. But I believe it's a money issue with some older expats. If they are that infirm, they may also be shelling out a lot of money on an annual basis for medical care, so their funds may be really tight. However, with that said, there is LannaCareNet. NancyL might be able to let the forum know if LCN volunteers could help older expats with real medical issues, such as standing in line and doing some of the waiting. Which would also bring up the issue of, how many TV members would be willing to volunteer their time to help assist an elderly expat to navigate a full day at CM Immigration to get their annual visa. Any takers?

Edited November 2, 2015 by connda

[connda]

To the older guys who have real physical trouble with the standing, waiting, whole debacle of dealing with the immigration office & process....

--- why don't you use a visa agent and save yourself the hassle ?

This is a good alternative for those who can spare the extra money for a visa agent. Not everyone can.

Also, it's a shame that conditions at the office are such that this alternative is necessary. It's not necessary for other dealings with Thai gov't agencies, like applying for a drivers license or obtaining a tax I.D. number and submitting tax forms. I've not had personal experience in dealing with other Thai gov't agencies, but I have the impression one doesn't wait hours and hours to get a work permit either.

I went to the work permit office earlier this year. Four staff waiting to assist, and no customers. Large waiting area and air conditioned.

The longest waits I've had at a Thai-run institution was at Maharaj hospital when I was getting my eye's checked by an ophthalmologist which I do yearly. That's a four hour wait virtually every time I go, but in an air-conditioned facility with chairs. Busy? Yep. Uncomfortable. Not really. Why go there? I have my personal reasons. I go to RAM for other stuff like dermatology which I also do yearly.

Car license? Longest I've waited was 2 1/2 hours last year. This year? 10 minutes.

Wife's social security/saving plans? Maybe 1 hour at the huge government complex out toward Mai Rim. Plenty of seating and parking. We do that locally in Lamphun now and there is manybe a 15 minute wait.

Filing taxes when I use to work. Maybe 30 minutes at the tax office. Not many customers paying taxes here in the LOS, lol.

Provincial hospital in Maeta, Lamphun. They have an efficient system that would put many Western hospitals to shame. 1 hour max to see a doctor, but generally about 30 minutes on average. Only have to wait if they order same day tests which may add an extra hour to two hours. Plenty of seating, TV, comfortable, small store, food shops across the street, and very friendly staff, and our doctor rocks. The best small hospital I've been too both inside and outside of Thailand.

Then, CM Immigration? What an embarrassment to Thailand. The Puuyai in charge should feel that way, although at times I have my doubts.

[Trujillo]

It seems to me that there is a ThaiVisa member who is highly connected to the Chiang Mai Expats' Club. I don't know if this organization is more of a club for fellowship or bringing together bridge players or has any influence over anything, but if it does have teeth, it might be more productive to have the head of this group create the necessary portfolio of interviews, photographs and related materials (not just anecdotal hearsay stories) of the issues regarding the Chiang Mai immigration office and present it to the U.S. Consul General in Chiang Mai (there is no embassy in Chiang Mai).

I doubt this would result in any action being taken (in fact, it could backfire; we've all seen the childish behavior of adults who retaliate against good advice by doing the exact opposite), but it's certainly worth running it up the flagpole. **

The building across the road from Promenada that hosts the Burmese workers is enormous. Chiang Mai immigration uses probably only one-third of the space. The question is: Do they rent all the building or only a portion? This building, if used completely by immigration, could accommodate all aspects of immigration with room to spare.

If the Grand Poobah of immigration -- who must sign off on key document submissions -- does not actually work at the Promenada office, then it begs the question: Is the most important work and volume of work really still being done at the airport office location?

I am not an authority on this, but I seem to recall that the airport office was still handling marriage-related matters. What else I don't know. But would it not be reasonable to presume that tourists, workers and retirees might make up the lion's share of those needing to meet immigration's requirements, and therefore necessitating having a full-time "boss" on hand?

The (sad) irony here is that you can be 100 percent certain that every worker at immigration, from the top to the bottom (and including the student volunteers), know and understand EXACTLY what is going on with foreigners and immigration issues. It isn't that they don't understand the problem; it is, as has been said before, that they simply don't care. They get paid the same, have to do the same work and life goes on whether some legal alien is inconvenienced or not.

**This is why I suspect that complaining from a U.S. government representative would only outrage the Thai supervisors. "How dare you point out the fact that we don't care! If you want to know what 'don't care' is, just you wait, now you'll see...."

[Tywais]

"What else I don't know. But would it not be reasonable to presume that tourists, workers and retirees might make up the lion's share of those needing to meet immigration's requirements, and therefore necessitating having a full-time "boss" on hand?"

They also handle business, work, and education extensions at the old office.

[connda]

It seems to me that there is a ThaiVisa member who is highly connected to the Chiang Mai Expats' Club. I don't know if this organization is more of a club for fellowship or bringing together bridge players or has any influence over anything, but if it does have teeth, it might be more productive to have the head of this group create the necessary portfolio of interviews, photographs and related materials (not just anecdotal hearsay stories) of the issues regarding the Chiang Mai immigration office and present it to the U.S. Consul General in Chiang Mai (there is no embassy in Chiang Mai).

I doubt this would result in any action being taken (in fact, it could backfire; we've all seen the childish behavior of adults who retaliate against good advice by doing the exact opposite), but it's certainly worth running it up the flagpole. **

The building across the road from Promenada that hosts the Burmese workers is enormous. Chiang Mai immigration uses probably only one-third of the space. The question is: Do they rent all the building or only a portion? This building, if used completely by immigration, could accommodate all aspects of immigration with room to spare.

If the Grand Poobah of immigration -- who must sign off on key document submissions -- does not actually work at the Promenada office, then it begs the question: Is the most important work and volume of work really still being done at the airport office location?

I am not an authority on this, but I seem to recall that the airport office was still handling marriage-related matters. What else I don't know. But would it not be reasonable to presume that tourists, workers and retirees might make up the lion's share of those needing to meet immigration's requirements, and therefore necessitating having a full-time "boss" on hand?

The (sad) irony here is that you can be 100 percent certain that every worker at immigration, from the top to the bottom (and including the student volunteers), know and understand EXACTLY what is going on with foreigners and immigration issues. It isn't that they don't understand the problem; it is, as has been said before, that they simply don't care. They get paid the same, have to do the same work and life goes on whether some legal alien is inconvenienced or not.

**This is why I suspect that complaining from a U.S. government representative would only outrage the Thai supervisors. "How dare you point out the fact that we don't care! If you want to know what 'don't care' is, just you wait, now you'll see...."

I'm not being coy, this is a legitimate question that you've brought up.

What do you (and others) think that the worst 'retaliation' could be if expats started to ask their Ambassadors to pressure the head administrators within the Thai Immigration system to get answers and push for changes? At this point, this really is a rhetorical question, but an interesting one.

My thoughts?

• Well, annual extensions are taking close to all day, with some folk being asked to come back the next day to complete the process, so I don't think they could be anymore inefficient in the 'foot-dragging' department then they are right now.
• Force expats into the arms of visa agents if they don't wish to wait all day. Ok, I'm already planning on getting a visa agent next year. No problem.
• They could send immigration staff or police to your residence to 'inspect', but they already do that, and after the Erawan bombing we all got a 'visit'. So hassling me at home? Bring it on. I'm retired and having a 'visit' would spice up the day. All my documents are in order. My dogs would love to grope Thai officials which I would encourage. No problem. Come every week.
• 'Lose' your passport. A minor inconvenience, and one that would adversely reflect on them.
• Demand documentation outside of what is legally mandated? That would be a sea-change for this office, unlike the stories we've heard from other Thai Immigration districts. But I'll have an agent, so what would I care. It's the agent's problem, not mine. Anyway, I have money in the bank for my visa, and I have all the possible documentation that they'd need. I read the stories from other districts, and if I hear that another immigration district is imposing 'new' fanciful rules, I make sure I have that paperwork in my 'immigration folder' at home. No problem.
• Make it impossible for me to become a Permanent Resident even though I've been marriage to a Thai national for almost eight year, and I would like to become a Permanent Resident. They already do that.
• Do something blatantly illegal and corrupt? What can you do if they go to those extremes? I'm not losing sleep over it. That's out of my personal circle of control, so I'll kick it out of my circle of concern.

Can you think of other retaliatory measures they could take? What can they really do that doesn't reflect right back on them in a negative manner, just adding fuel to the fire.

And for those who think that contacting your Ambassador is a waste of time. If enough people are bringing up the same issues and problem to the attention of Ambassadors in multiple foreign embassies, the problem would be difficult to ignore. The US Ambassador may look like a figure-head, but the US is a major world super-power and holds a massive amount of clout as does it's allies in the Western world. And the US Ambassador, alone, could wield massive pressure if he, with the US administration's backing, were to apply it. In our own countries, discrimination is not tolerated. Nor, from a US view, are non-democratically elected governments. So if a large number of expats and Western visitors are having problems at only one of all the immigration districts in Thailand, that should raise a red-flag. Regardless of the official size of Chiang Mai compared to other cities in Thailand, Chiang Mai is one of the most visited cities in this country. Call it a concern for the security and welfare of it's citizens that would spur Ambassador's to take action if enough expats and visitor contact them to express their concern over the lack of services, provided by CM Immigration as compares to all other immigration districts in Thailand, or for that matter, the inability to get service (sorry, but no more queue number today...come back tomorrow at 4am, you try again - 40 expats and agents trying to get one of 20 queue numbers. I've read one account of an expat being physically pushed out of line by a group of Thai agents, so if queue numbers are in such a high demand that expats are risking being assaulted in line¹, that's a major problem!).

Personally I do not think that contacting your Ambassador is a waste of time. But with that said, I personally am willing to wait until CM Immigration has completed their move, settled in, and given time to stabilize the services they offer. If in six to eight months there are still major problems with their services, like having to wait all day starting at 5am, or being unable to obtain a queue number, then a note to my Ambassador may be warranted. Time will tell.

¹Source: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/851500-90-day-reports-by-mail-stopping/page-2#entry9793893

Edited November 2, 2015 by connda

[northernjohn]

It seems to me that there is a ThaiVisa member who is highly connected to the Chiang Mai Expats' Club. I don't know if this organization is more of a club for fellowship or bringing together bridge players or has any influence over anything, but if it does have teeth, it might be more productive to have the head of this group create the necessary portfolio of interviews, photographs and related materials (not just anecdotal hearsay stories) of the issues regarding the Chiang Mai immigration office and present it to the U.S. Consul General in Chiang Mai (there is no embassy in Chiang Mai).

I doubt this would result in any action being taken (in fact, it could backfire; we've all seen the childish behavior of adults who retaliate against good advice by doing the exact opposite), but it's certainly worth running it up the flagpole. **

The building across the road from Promenada that hosts the Burmese workers is enormous. Chiang Mai immigration uses probably only one-third of the space. The question is: Do they rent all the building or only a portion? This building, if used completely by immigration, could accommodate all aspects of immigration with room to spare.

If the Grand Poobah of immigration -- who must sign off on key document submissions -- does not actually work at the Promenada office, then it begs the question: Is the most important work and volume of work really still being done at the airport office location?

I am not an authority on this, but I seem to recall that the airport office was still handling marriage-related matters. What else I don't know. But would it not be reasonable to presume that tourists, workers and retirees might make up the lion's share of those needing to meet immigration's requirements, and therefore necessitating having a full-time "boss" on hand?

The (sad) irony here is that you can be 100 percent certain that every worker at immigration, from the top to the bottom (and including the student volunteers), know and understand EXACTLY what is going on with foreigners and immigration issues. It isn't that they don't understand the problem; it is, as has been said before, that they simply don't care. They get paid the same, have to do the same work and life goes on whether some legal alien is inconvenienced or not.

**This is why I suspect that complaining from a U.S. government representative would only outrage the Thai supervisors. "How dare you point out the fact that we don't care! If you want to know what 'don't care' is, just you wait, now you'll see...."

I'm not being coy, this is a legitimate question that you've brought up.

What do you (and others) think that the worst 'retaliation' could be if expats started to ask their Ambassadors to pressure the head administrators within the Thai Immigration system to get answers and push for changes? At this point, this really is a rhetorical question, but an interesting one.

My thoughts?

• Well, annual extensions are taking close to all day, with some folk being asked to come back the next day to complete the process, so I don't think they could be anymore inefficient in the 'foot-dragging' department then they are right now.
• Force expats into the arms of visa agents if they don't wish to wait all day. Ok, I'm already planning on getting a visa agent next year. No problem.
• They could send immigration staff or police to your residence to 'inspect', but they already do that, and after the Erawan bombing we all got a 'visit'. So hassling me at home? Bring it on. I'm retired and having a 'visit' would spice up the day. All my documents are in order. My dogs would love to grope Thai officials which I would encourage. No problem. Come every week.
• 'Lose' your passport. A minor inconvenience, and one that would adversely reflect on them.
• Demand documentation outside of what is legally mandated? That would be a sea-change for this office, unlike the stories we've heard from other Thai Immigration districts. But I'll have an agent, so what would I care. It's the agent's problem, not mine. Anyway, I have money in the bank for my visa, and I have all the possible documentation that they'd need. I read the stories from other districts, and if I hear that another immigration district is imposing 'new' fanciful rules, I make sure I have that paperwork in my 'immigration folder' at home. No problem.
• Make it impossible for me to become a Permanent Resident even though I've been marriage to a Thai national for almost eight year, and I would like to become a Permanent Resident. They already do that.
• Do something blatantly illegal and corrupt? What can you do if they go to those extremes? I'm not losing sleep over it. That's out of my personal circle of control, so I'll kick it out of my circle of concern.

Can you think of other retaliatory measures they could take? What can they really do that doesn't reflect right back on them in a negative manner, just adding fuel to the fire.

And for those who think that contacting your Ambassador is a waste of time. If enough people are bringing up the same issues and problem to the attention of Ambassadors in multiple foreign embassies, the problem would be difficult to ignore. The US Ambassador may look like a figure-head, but the US is a major world super-power and holds a massive amount of clout as does it's allies in the Western world. And the US Ambassador, alone, could wield massive pressure if he, with the US administration's backing, were to apply it. In our own countries, discrimination is not tolerated. Nor, from a US view, are non-democratically elected governments. So if a large number of expats and Western visitors are having problems at only one of all the immigration districts in Thailand, that should raise a red-flag. Regardless of the official size of Chiang Mai compared to other cities in Thailand, Chiang Mai is one of the most visited cities in this country. Call it a concern for the security and welfare of it's citizens that would spur Ambassador's to take action if enough expats and visitor contact them to express their concern over the lack of services, provided by CM Immigration as compares to all other immigration districts in Thailand, or for that matter, the inability to get service (sorry, but no more queue number today...come back tomorrow at 4am, you try again - 40 expats and agents trying to get one of 20 queue numbers. I've read one account of an expat being physically pushed out of line by a group of Thai agents, so if queue numbers are in such a high demand that expats are risking being assaulted in line¹, that's a major problem!).

Personally I do not think that contacting your Ambassador is a waste of time. But with that said, I personally am willing to wait until CM Immigration has completed their move, settled in, and given time to stabilize the services they offer. If in six to eight months there are still major problems with their services, like having to wait all day starting at 5am, or being unable to obtain a queue number, then a note to my Ambassador may be warranted. Time will tell.

¹Source: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/851500-90-day-reports-by-mail-stopping/page-2#entry9793893

Well I don't keep up with all the different offices but from what I have heard there are no real problems in any of the others that compare to Chiang Mai's. so the Ambassador would be going in and putting in a plea for only Chiang Mai. Personally I don't think it would change things but I have no problem with people contacting him and putting pressure on him. It will just be old news to Immigration in Bangkok the source of the policy.

[Trujillo]

So what you are saying, Tywais, if I read it right, is that most of immigration's workload is based at the old, airport facility?

I'm not sure what you mean by, "They also handle business, work, and education extensions at the old office." Aren't "business and work" the same thing?

But let's assume that the Promenada facility does not handle the majority of foreigners. If NancyL is correct, and there is not a permanent supervisor of the level to sign off on submitted documentation at Promenada, why?

No matter how you slice it, something's squirrely about this arrangement. "We are going to move to a new and "better" office to service the needs of foreigners, but we will not post a full-time supervisor there to be able to process the workflow in a timely and efficient manner?" Huh?

The bottom line here is that something has gone wrong over time with CM immigration and it appears to be something happening here and not elsewhere (that we have reports on).

A special report in one of the pull-out magazines from the Bangkok Post or the Nation would be the one thing that would not only make certain Thais take notice, but would be something tangible to point to when addressing the issues with "higher-ups."

Edited November 2, 2015 by Trujillo

[Trujillo]

You are missing the point. Should we be forced by circumstances to hire an agent and pay him four times the cost of our water bill to have it paid? Or to get a new driver's license?

You forget that we PAY to stay here, and we are required to have a steady income from abroad or to keep almost a million baht in the country as proof that we do not work. We are not freeloaders and 99 percent are law abiding citizens that contribute in some way to the nation.

Healthy or fit, all we want is a modicum of respect and decency from the country we are a guest in.

[cyberfarang]

To the older guys who have real physical trouble with the standing, waiting, whole debacle of dealing with the immigration office & process....

--- why don't you use a visa agent and save yourself the hassle ?

This is a good alternative for those who can spare the extra money for a visa agent. Not everyone can.

Also, it's a shame that conditions at the office are such that this alternative is necessary. It's not necessary for other dealings with Thai gov't agencies, like applying for a drivers license or obtaining a tax I.D. number and submitting tax forms. I've not had personal experience in dealing with other Thai gov't agencies, but I have the impression one doesn't wait hours and hours to get a work permit either.

Hi Nancy

I would like to give my opinion, hopefully not irritating like some I won`t mention.

I consider the agents as both the good and the bad. Very distressing to read your account of the 2 elderly gentlemen you mentioned. I think for the people that have health problems, elderly and maybe immobile, those not certain how to fill in their paperwork should use the services of an agent. The total fees of up to 8000 baht that includes the 1900 baht for the visa extension, only once a year, is not a fortune and if there are expats who can`t afford that (without prejudice) maybe should not be retiring in Thailand, because I don`t think immigration has obligations to cater for expats on low incomes, it`s not their problem. The tragic circumstances that led up to the deaths of the gentlemen you mentioned would not had happened if they had used agents. I think for people in some circumstances it`s a matter of needs must. I think that for the types of people described, should be encouraged to use agents.

On the other hand, I am able to afford an agent, know how to complete my paperwork and all that is required of me and still fit and healthy. But I hate the 2 options of either paying an agent or persons unknown that have the powers to get priority queue slots and hold my hand during the process when I am fully capable of going to immigration and doing the business myself but having to suffer many hours of discomfort and stress at the zoo as you call it, that sounds about as exciting as being in a car crash.

Think I have mentioned that we all have a duty to ensure our paperwork is in order, it is not the duty of immigration staff to do it all for us and if some get turned away or told to go and get their documentations in order, who`s fault is that?

If people prefer to use an agent no one should put them down for doing so, it`s their prerogative. What I don`t like is that people like me who prefer not to use agents are being pushed to use agents, the alternative being spending a day at the zoo in sufferance.

Hope I`ve not confused you with my logic, my intentions not to wind anybody up, but to see all sides of the argument.

[Tywais]

So what you are saying, Tywais, if I read it right, is that most of immigration's workload is based at the old, airport facility?

I'm not sure what you mean by, "They also handle business, work, and education extensions at the old office." Aren't "business and work" the same thing?

But let's assume that the Promenada facility does not handle the majority of foreigners. If NancyL is correct, and there is not a permanent supervisor of the level to sign off on submitted documentation at Promenada, why?

When I was there a few weeks ago getting my extension based on work it wasn't heaving as before but most seats were taken but not overflowing outside. Hard to say with just the one visit. May be more or may be less on other days. I have a friend who went in about the same time but had to queue dark o'clock and didn't get done until afternoon. He couldn't do his re-entry permit as no time and came back the next day. I had an online queue number so it was pretty smooth for me.

There is a distinction between work and business, though that may be a matter of paperwork. Work would be like myself on contract with the university. Business would be those who own or run their own company.

Bottom line, it appeared to be significantly more at the old office then the new one based on the photos and reports I've seen.

[thai006]

how much for an agent for 60 day extension at old immi ?

[Greydog]

I am doing my yearly extension based on marriage in about 3 weeks. For the last 4-5 years I have had an appointment via the Online Que, but this year that isn't possible. From what I have read in this thread/topic I should go to the Old Immigration location, right? But does anyone know WHEN I should be there - how early - to get a number for that day. I know it probably varies from day to day, but a "ballpark" time would be nice. 4 AM? 5 AM? 6 AM? I would hate to, for instance, arrive 2 hours earlier than nessessary... Thanx!

[Trujillo]

Bottom line, it appeared to be significantly more at the old office then the new one based on the photos and reports I've seen.

Interesting. So does that mean that immigration isn't going to "move" in the sense of leaving the airport facility and Promenada is just overflow? Or are they really thinking to move all existing operations to Promenada and put old wine in a new bottle?

[NancyL]

In the interview "published" in the OP, Col. Rutjapong said he intended to move all operations out of the old airport office and consolidate them at Promenada, with Education visas being the next, within 4 weeks. That interview was in mid-September and so far, there is no sign of ED visas moving to Prom. Marc, the Prom. mgr who I also interviewed was very keen on ED visas moving and the mall traffic that would generate. Since then, he's resigned from his position at Prom. and perhaps the new people don't care whether or not Imm. brings another 30 - 40 younger, potential customers to Prom. each day.

So, I don't know if Col. Rutjapong has changed the plan about consolidating operations at Prom. or not. As we see with the new indoor waiting area, the mall mgt, is willing to give over more space currently used for retail to Imm., so don't think that their operations are constrained by the current size of the Imm. office at Prom.