SURVEY: Is the government making a Sustainable dent in corruption?

[maidee]

faces change, corruption stays forever

[Shaunduhpostman]

Not sure how any of us would know the answer to that at this point. Seems anything we might answer would be based on a pretty narrow sample of what is going on in the country as a whole.

I know one thing though, the style of this government, does not show any understanding of the value of being transparent or clear about some or perhaps even many of their decrees etc. Confusion about what is what, no explanation for what they are doing, saying one thing and doing another all seem to me to be the makings of a great soil for a nice robust corruption harvest for all. There seems to be the same commitment to sowing confusion nationwide so that people can be picked off for violations for anything whenever it is convenient or lucrative.

But what would I know, I have not studied what is actually going on in Thailand in serious or systematic way, so I don't think I am going to "vote." And really, it is a good portion of the problem with all this, that such a question will likely never be taken up and seriously studied. You just don't go there is the way it seems to all work here.

I would rather answer the following: 1. According to your own perceptions, does the current administration, or whatever nice name for them we might want to use in all politeness, show any signs of knowing how to go about making Thailand a less corrupt society and country? 2. Do they seem to show signs of any sincerity towards being any different regarding corruption than previous regimes/governments etc? 3. Does the current administration appear competent to the extent that they could make the changes that will effectively help Thailand raise it's level regarding rule of law and fairness? Please rate on a scale of 1-10, with 1 meaning no and 10 meaning yes. I'd give question #1 about 2 or 3 depending on my mood, question 2 about a 1, and question #3 a 1.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Shaunduhpostman

[Thai at Heart]

They are busy trying to make a dent in the other sides corruption.

[gemguy]

No. The most corrupt department is the police force from the bottom up. What has been done ? Zero

There are several very high policemen arrested, guess you are new here?

True ...But......for the 25 years I have been here there always has been and always will be some people ( from many levels of Thai Society ) that are arrested and prosecuted and some go to jail for awhile and some even do somewhat lengthy prison terms.

Meantime the system (so to speak ) will never be anything other than a corrupt or corrupted system that pays off in the form of wealth and power which is a seemingly endemic part of Thai Culture and pursued vigorously...regardless of how that wealth and power are obtained and or the ramifications and or implications.

It is not particular only to Thai Culture, as everyone knows well enough, but the mindset and or mentality of a significantly higher percent of the Thai people is such that corruption and what ever corruption supposedly means and or its implications and or its social ramifications does not play on the conscience of those that are deemed as corrupt.....but deemed as corrupt by other people....who, if the truth be told or revealed could or would be just as corrupt if they themselves where in the same position to be corrupt or find themselves subjected to practices and conduct deemed to be corrupt and then participate rather than walk away from what they know is deemed as corrupt.

.The truth of the matters is you can not stop the corruption by singling out those that are more corrupt than others simply because they have profited from it more so than others when in reality everyone is more or less caught up in the corrupt system that has evolved while public participation is the bed rock of corruption in so many respects as to where does corruption originate ...so it is sort of like the chicken and the egg question as to which came first.

Does the corruption evolve by way of inherently corrupt officials or does corruption evolve from the common people that are all too often corrupt themselves and then further corrupt the officials as it evolves both ways and integral in sustaining corruption on all levels ....while both parties, when exposed, will always blame the other party or some other factor....although they are both guilty if you want to judge them strictly by the book.

When you think about it, the subject of corruption is most often not about moral values so much rather it is about how much money was involved and or how much gross malfeasance and manipulation of power did occur ...if and when it is exposed that pisses people off more so.

People ( nearly all people ) paying something extra to have a government service performed today, rather than next week, does not upset anyone....but when 1 billion Baht goes missing then that upsets people and the issue of corruption rears its ugly head once again while people try to fathom as to how did they pull that off or how could they pull that off.....??

In cases like that...is that corruption or out right theft?

Either way the present government is not making any significant dent in corruption.....but mean time, more people are seemingly being held accountable more so than ever before.

Cheers

[SantiSuk]

"you can not legislate morality, all you can do is create an environment where morality is culturally conducive because people will always take the path of list resistance".

Glib and I don't agree. Look at the US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. As one who has worked with corporate boards worldwide I can tell you they are petrified of it and will pay millions of consulting dollars to put systems in place in their global networks to flush it out. Large widely publicised penal fines have also helped.

But then the Thais would never think of even looking at models elsewhere.

The line between morality and law is widely debated in academic circles. There are clearly some areas of morality you cannot legislate - being a good neighbour, not gossiping behind backs. Corruption is easily defineable, easily spotted with the right controls and easily evaluated as to quantum of punishment. All factors that would suggest it should be legislated. Indeed without such you don't get off first base. We are all aware that Thais do not really understand what is corruption and what is normal business practice. A clear definition of what is corruption is a sine qua non

[NOC]

Show me the pudding.

[FangFerang]

I don't understand the survey. There is no corruption in Thailand since Thaksin left.

[Muirton]

No. The most corrupt department is the police force from the bottom up. What has been done ? Zero

Perhaps the Police come second to the Army. The Judiciary come in third perhaps,

[silent]

No, because every Thai person is against corruption for others.

When it comes to one's interest, everyone is happy to use corruption.

So you're saying land of smiles is generally a way of masking the land of corrupt Hippocrates? Have my vote.

[silent]

No. The most corrupt department is the police force from the bottom up. What has been done ? Zero

There are several very high policemen arrested, guess you are new here?

I think you will find that the highest profile arrest, the DSI head, had very little to do with corruption. Although I acknowledge, he was corrupt, that was not the primary motive for his arrest.

Cannot discus further.

No. Carry on, but don't use the title of the endless story or there might be monetary legal implications.

[ratcatcher]

No, because every Thai person is against corruption for others.

When it comes to one's interest, everyone is happy to use corruption.

So you're saying land of smiles is generally a way of masking the land of corrupt Hippocrates? Have my vote.

Why bring the ancient Greek physician's name into this discussion?

[abrahamzvi]

People will do what is need to get along with in a particular culture

I remember being in a country i will not mention as not to insult the otherwise good people of that country, I would wait on the Que for the bus, and when the bus arrived everyone would rush the bush in a mad dash to get in,and not wait for their turn. I waited for my turn, and as a consequence I would either not get on the bus or not get a seat

Quickly I learned , and i rushed the bush too, I conformed to the culture.

you can not legislate morality, all you can do is create an environment where morality is culturally conducive because people will always take the path of list resistance.

I don't think the current government has done this

I don't quite agree. The evidence that your theory his not entirely correct is Singapore, where there is practically no corruption, although some 75% of the population are Chinese and to say that China has no corruption would be the joke of the year!

If you ask me why it is so, my answer would be that Singapore has been taking the correct measures against corruption, i.e. on the one hand the people of authority (including the lower echelon like traffic policeman) are well paid - the Prime Minister is the best paid politician in the - and on the other hand any corruption is investigated and harshly punished. Admittedly, it does take time, but in my personal view this is the only way to successfully fight corruption.

The argument against my theory would be that the countries on top of the list of countries without corruption are the Scandinavian countries and New Zealand, where people of authority earn normal salaries. Possibly, the answer is a combination of the two opposing theories , i.e. corruption is a cultural trait, but it can be successfully fought against by applying the right measures , considering any cultural traits.

I know all the above are only theories and I sincerely believe that the present Thai government is seriously trying to fight corruption. I just hope they find the right ways for being successful.

[ianf]

Far too early to tell.

It takes time to implement, and even longer to see the results.

Since this anti-corruption drive there has only been one result: Corruption has become more expensive.

[lvr181]

Corruption? Where? When? No corruption in Thailand! Only western farang say that. Reporters and researchers will be punished for showing and suggesting corruption - naughty people!

[Waldkater41]

Haha, yes General Government fights it hard......thats why he put all his mates into key positions.

[lvr181]

.......you can not legislate morality, all you can do is create an environment where morality is culturally conducive because people will always take the path of list resistance.

I don't think the current government has done this

Legislated punishment could change morality. And those who lead, who make the laws and those whose job is to uphold the laws must all be be above any form of corruption and then, maybe, a culturally conducive environment may exist. Lead by example and expect the population to follow. Lack of trust in a country's institutions only brings about a dog eat dog immorality.

[waitforusalso]

Is the government making a sustainable dent in the level of corruption???

Corruption won't ever be solved, just REDIRECTED to serve whatever party is ruling...

Who the hell voted yes ??

EnglishJohn, djjamie, ginjag, rubi, baerboxer ...

[happy2go]

There has been some progress on corruption but nothing substantial will occur until government goes after all corruption officials regardless of party. To date it appears they have only eliminated some of the competition.

[soalbundy]

pay me and i'll tell you

[GAZZPA]

I think they will make some improvements but they will not last.

This has been a topic on and off for a long time and I guess I may be repeating myself. The only way to tackle corruption is head on and go to war starting with the people in power. There is also an education needed for everyone in Thai society explaining why corruption at every level is bad for everyone.

At the moment people see no problem in corruption, in fact I dont think it is seen as corruption, it is seen as a way to quickly earn money (which is good in their eyes) or to get out of trouble quickly.

Until people see this as wrong nothing will change, so it will take time. The government also need to run public awareness campaigns targeting teenagers and younger adults, they after all will shape the future.

Quick example: I recently bought some condos and in my dealings I had to communicate with the condo secretary who was translating a lot of the discussion between myself and the seller. Now of course she would get paid for this service as anyone should BUT she took it upon herself to try and "own" the sale, even though it was nothing to do with her. She delayed the purchase of the condos from this Thai family because she wanted to negotiate the commission rate she would be paid for the sale.. Now she did not find me as a buyer and neither did she agree to sell the condos in advance with the seller, she was simply asked to translate. She saw it as a quick and substantial pay day for doing nothing. Once I found out that the sellers delayed responses were because of her I took her out of the equation,,, she was more then annoyed at this as she saw nothing wrong with what she was doing.

A good example of how Thai people often view corruption.

[MaxLee]

The influential elite is so proud of corruption that they open up a museum FROM OUR TAXPAYERS" MONEY....

If that doesn't speak volumes, I don't know, man....

[LomSak27]

I do get nostalgic for those Nation Editorials and OP?ED rants. The fellow travelers here on TV. The hired cheerleaders who appear then disappear like the wind ...

.

Lets Reboot Thailand

We Deserve Better

Ahh seems like yesterday

[mike324]

As someone who has run a business here for 25+ years. I can say corruption has decrease considerably in my point of view. Believe it or not, when we import stuff, our shipping agent no longer asks for tea money because customs wants to do it by the books! Back then, even if you pay the tax, they won't release your goods until you pay them a little extra, or else they will come up with lame excuses to hold your goods. Same goes for paying yearly taxes, the tax man would come around every year demanding xxx, so far they are demanding less in fear of being targeted or singled out. Many are behaving more because they know they no longer hold the upper hand. All thanks to the General enforcing the law and actually arresting many high level civil servants.

Police are accepting bribes less nowadays too, but it seems like this bad habit will return, but due to everyone owning a smartphone, they are more afraid of taking bribes in fear of being shamed.

Its still a way of life for many, but at the same time, many are sick of it and are not as afraid to stand up to these officials.

For many of the folks here who are retired or work for X company, you may not feel the decrease in corruption. As a medium size business owner who deals with officials on a weekly / monthly basis, you will see and notice it.

[retarius]

The anti-corruption agenda of the government seems driven by political considerations rather then by a desire to clean up the country. The police tea-money scams are in full flow in my town, no change at all. From what I have seen a major police general and his family were targeted but it seems that there were political issues rather then corruption than brought them down and 'justice' was very swift indeed....now compare their fate to the 56 or so good folks involved in people trafficking. They were moved to other jobs or inactive posts...this seems a double standard to say the least.

Another issue is the ability of influential people to avoid justice even for serious crimes...I suppose we are shocked that Moo Ham finally got a jail sentence, but forgive me for being cynical, I don't actually believe he is behind bars in a real Thai prison.

[lovelomsak]

In thailand no one gets rid of corruption. What happens is they purge and replace with people that take over the corruption already in place and the money goes in a new pocket.

They use the excuse to rid of people that donot work well with them. Not an attitude adjustment but a reality check.

Edited September 24, 2015 by lovelomsak

[gemguy]

People will do what is need to get along with in a particular culture

I remember being in a country i will not mention as not to insult the otherwise good people of that country, I would wait on the Que for the bus, and when the bus arrived everyone would rush the bush in a mad dash to get in,and not wait for their turn. I waited for my turn, and as a consequence I would either not get on the bus or not get a seat

Quickly I learned , and i rushed the bush too, I conformed to the culture.

you can not legislate morality, all you can do is create an environment where morality is culturally conducive because people will always take the path of list resistance.

I don't think the current government has done this

I don't quite agree. The evidence that your theory his not entirely correct is Singapore, where there is practically no corruption, although some 75% of the population are Chinese and to say that China has no corruption would be the joke of the year!

If you ask me why it is so, my answer would be that Singapore has been taking the correct measures against corruption, i.e. on the one hand the people of authority (including the lower echelon like traffic policeman) are well paid - the Prime Minister is the best paid politician in the - and on the other hand any corruption is investigated and harshly punished. Admittedly, it does take time, but in my personal view this is the only way to successfully fight corruption.

The argument against my theory would be that the countries on top of the list of countries without corruption are the Scandinavian countries and New Zealand, where people of authority earn normal salaries. Possibly, the answer is a combination of the two opposing theories , i.e. corruption is a cultural trait, but it can be successfully fought against by applying the right measures , considering any cultural traits.

I know all the above are only theories and I sincerely believe that the present Thai government is seriously trying to fight corruption. I just hope they find the right ways for being successful.

Singapore is a somewhat unusual case and not really the best of examples...mainly because it is such a small country and such a small population...and much easier to control.

But your point is well regarded....but..meantime....... there is plenty of corruption there relative to the size of the country and its population.

And Singapore used to be a cesspool of sorts..... not so long ago.

Meantime...it is too late for Thailand in the sense that the country has been this way for at least 500 years while some of the Thais, who are corrupt, in every sense of the word, usually have power and influence and money and prestige and face and high or relatively high position in the Thai social hierarchy and respect ....loads of respect....so all of that supersedes this bothersome corruption thing that is being forced upon them by all the do gooders out there.

It is like they feel they are entitled to be so.

Cheers

Edited September 24, 2015 by gemguy

[EnglishJohn]

I get the impression that Prayuth is genuine in his desire to stop corruption. But nobody else is so he has no chance.

I think he has since narrowed his aims to try and implement a political system that cannot end up with yet another Parliament of cronies who sold their allegiance to a dictator so in return they were allowed to steadily bleed the country dry - with the ensuing massive corruption leading to more mass killing of protesters by those clinging to power.

He has given up on corruption. He would have started police reform already if he had any support.

[ikke]

I get the impression that Prayuth is genuine in his desire to stop corruption. But nobody else is so he has no chance.

I think he has since narrowed his aims to try and implement a political system that cannot end up with yet another Parliament of cronies who sold their allegiance to a dictator so in return they were allowed to steadily bleed the country dry - with the ensuing massive corruption leading to more mass killing of protesters by those clinging to power.

He has given up on corruption. He would have started police reform already if he had any support.

He's just a boy who plays every day with another toy !

Nothing done so far to stop corruption , Customs, Revenue department, Police and Army, they can all do as they want.

He is hunting Taksin and Taksin minded people that's all he does, no governing, nothing to stop corruption !

But You John, You love him so much that you don't see the picture !

[natway09]

Now I have filled my pockets & my wifes, we must put a stop to this.

[lvr181]

People will do what is need to get along with in a particular culture

I remember being in a country i will not mention as not to insult the otherwise good people of that country, I would wait on the Que for the bus, and when the bus arrived everyone would rush the bush in a mad dash to get in,and not wait for their turn. I waited for my turn, and as a consequence I would either not get on the bus or not get a seat

Quickly I learned , and i rushed the bush too, I conformed to the culture.

you can not legislate morality, all you can do is create an environment where morality is culturally conducive because people will always take the path of list resistance.

I don't think the current government has done this

I don't quite agree. The evidence that your theory his not entirely correct is Singapore, where there is practically no corruption, although some 75% of the population are Chinese and to say that China has no corruption would be the joke of the year!

If you ask me why it is so, my answer would be that Singapore has been taking the correct measures against corruption, i.e. on the one hand the people of authority (including the lower echelon like traffic policeman) are well paid - the Prime Minister is the best paid politician in the - and on the other hand any corruption is investigated and harshly punished. Admittedly, it does take time, but in my personal view this is the only way to successfully fight corruption.

The argument against my theory would be that the countries on top of the list of countries without corruption are the Scandinavian countries and New Zealand, where people of authority earn normal salaries. Possibly, the answer is a combination of the two opposing theories , i.e. corruption is a cultural trait, but it can be successfully fought against by applying the right measures , considering any cultural traits.

I know all the above are only theories and I sincerely believe that the present Thai government is seriously trying to fight corruption. I just hope they find the right ways for being successful.

Singapore is a somewhat unusual case and not really the best of examples...mainly because it is such a small country and such a small population...and much easier to control.

But your point is well regarded....but..meantime....... there is plenty of corruption there relative to the size of the country and its population.

And Singapore used to be a cesspool of sorts..... not so long ago.

Meantime...it is too late for Thailand in the sense that the country has been this way for at least 500 years while some of the Thais, who are corrupt, in every sense of the word, usually have power and influence and money and prestige and face and high or relatively high position in the Thai social hierarchy and respect ....loads of respect....so all of that supersedes this bothersome corruption thing that is being forced upon them by all the do gooders out there.

It is like they feel they are entitled to be so.

Cheers

The size of the country may make some difference but the BIG difference is that Thai leadership (past and present) does not have the nous to learn from others