Forensic team to testify in Koh Tao murder trial

[fab99]

You mean like those secret document the Defense Team didn't let anyone see or talk about but were passed under the table to the Judges? Or as it was reported by the Media.

You're goner have to eat your words regarding the documents because they have significant dislcosure

Oh? So what are they then? You talk like you know. Perhaps you can share with the rest of us then.

I don't know what they are but in a fair and transparent trial I never heard of secret documents being passed around where the other side can't even contest them, as they don't know what they are. Have You?

I will remind you GB don't worry.

Unfortunately there is some legal considerations being taken into account as the coroner's have taken it upon themselves to interject some information that would otherwise be disclosed at the inquest in the hope that the B2 get a fair trial.

It obviously hasn't sat easily with either coroner so they have allowed the defence to hand their findings to the court. I cant tell you if It will be made public but its on record in the event of an appeal. I do hope it is as I am sure you are.

Why would this be on anyone's record when it can't be argued in a court of law and can't be verified.

If the Official Legal Stance of the UK Justice System is to not provide evidence in a trial that carries Capital Punishment then this is their Law and should remain in force. So if this Forensic Expert who preformed an Autopsy on Hannah provided any information concerning this case without prior permission from the government their, which appears to be the case, then she broke the law and in my books she should be punished for that.

As far as I can see this would only give the UK Justice System a Big Black Eye as far as any other future dealings with the Thai Justice System. After this disclosure, as you call it, I wouldn't trust them either.

GB you seem truly angry at the British forensics for providing additional information to the defense that seem to contradict the prosecution. The autopsy made by them couldn't be tempered with as there was no ill intent intermediary and that worries you, because it seems to contradict the lies that have been cooked up about what happened to the two innocent victims.

It made me smile when you said this transmission of information to the judge made the trial not fair.... Do you really think the trial is fair ??? The prosecution have failed to provide things to the defense countless times but it seems like it is normal to you, as long as it is not the other way around.

You prove to be a lot less clever than AleG and you don't help your cause with your repeated messages full of mistakes.

For instance, you seem to confuse Hannah's and David's DNA (that is probably available to the defense and can't be tampered with) with the DNA of the rapists and/or murders (which has never been sent to an independent testing facility but stayed in control of the RTP and now can't be retested because it is "used up", which would be comical if it wasn't so tragic).

The independent testing of the hoe has shown a different story from the one told by the RTP and contradicts the reenactment of the B2, lies can't last forever, the truth usually comes out, I sure hope it will in this case, not like so many other cases here before like Kirsty Jones murder in Chiang Mai that showed how far the RTP can go.

What you and AleG don't get is that all of us "speculators" want justice for the two innocent victims that were so savagely murdered, I can't accept the idea of the beasts that did it going away with it and as far as I have seen, there is no way the B2 did it,?

There is just too much bullshit around this investigation for it to be "perfect" as it was claimed to be.

[saminoz]

There have been many conflicting reports of what has been said...statements retracted...contradicted....and blatently false delivered in the courtroom as reported in media and then minutely detailed by the heavy hitters in this thread.

Stealth loonodingle mad aussie etc...care to re entertain said reports? If we had proper recording mechanisms this would all be put to bed but i do remember you blowing your trumpet over the last year about waiting for the trial. Sir...this trial is full of shit. I believe you are a pretty smart guy. Answer khun Matt's questions please.

Conflicting statements and reports, as you pointed out, reported by the media; more often than not originating with the defense team who obviously has an incentive to discredit the investigation as much as possible and inflate any little fact or event in their favour.

As for khunmatts questions, first of I have already answered the questions, secondly by his past interactions with Balo I determined that he is not interested in an honest discussion, thirdly the moderators have repeatedly reminded that the discussion is not about forum members, it's about a court case and finally his questions are based on lies some people have been maliciously spreading about me.

In short, he is all the attention he deserves.

there's one under oath

• From the trial: Under oath Lieutenant Colonel Somsak Nurod stated he had spoken to the pathologist on the 2nd and 3rd Oct but after that had no further contact with him. The defense then produced a statement from the pathologist stating that Lieutenant Colonel Somsak Nurod had made two separate trips to meet him in late Oct and another on 18th Nov. The pathologist’s statement confirmed they talked about the hair found in Hannah’a hand. When challenged about this Lieutenant Colonel Somsak Nurod then admitted he had had further discussions with the pathologist but would not reveal what was said between them. http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/news/senior_police_officers_give_contradictory_evidence_at_hannah_witheridge_murder_trial_1_4215995?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

Aleg...that is perjury sir. You have to admit.

You're asking AleG about perjury?

You may as well ask the Thai Tourism Authority or a Koh Tao Trip Advisor review writer, they have about the same degree of subject knowledge and credibility.

That is pretty damn funny!!!

[happy Joe]

A prolific poster of months gone by has gone silent in the defence of the RTP. It appears that poster is living up to the old saying of "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.".

Unfortunately a couple of posters are proving this adage is correct........

The abundance of useless words is a clear sign of mental inferiority state.

You and some others here should apply this other adage to your own account...

Already more than 11 pages since the reopening of the trial. 11 pages of speculation, called into question, more or less coarse assumptions and allegations at limit of insulting anyone who dares suggest a diverging opinion.

In brief 11 pages of nothing, an absolute vacuum. This is normal because the defense itself indicates that important revelations will be presented later.

Clearly the show is in the hall where armchair detectives brew the air with unrelenting constancy in the pretentious vacuity

[GOLDBUGGY]

One thing is crystal clear. If the rtp had a DNA match there wouldn't have been all this subterfuge. They would have placed it on the table and let the defence independently test it. It beggars belief that anyone believes the rtp.

They did allow the defense to independently test it, the defense refused to do so.

Sigh! You keep repeating this, and I need to keep correcting what may mislead the casual reader. The RTP did not offer independent testing of the semen sample. They claimed (unconvincingly) that it was "all used up". They offered degraded replicated DNA from an intermediate stage in the testing process that cannot be shown with confidence to have any relationship to any original semen sample.

Well, with 2 DNA Samples collected from the 2 Accused in Court, and the UK Forensics having Hannah's DNA, then the Defense should easily be able to prove they don't match. Hannah's Body was returned home shortly after the autopsy in Thailand so all things should be still the same. I would think.

So let them prove it on their own terms then.

If they don't then why not?

[fritzzz25]

A prolific poster of months gone by has gone silent in the defence of the RTP. It appears that poster is living up to the old saying of "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.".

Unfortunately a couple of posters are proving this adage is correct........

The abundance of useless words is a clear sign of mental inferiority state.

You and some others here should apply this other adage to your own account...

Already more than 11 pages since the reopening of the trial. 11 pages of speculation, called into question, more or less coarse assumptions and allegations at limit of insulting anyone who dares suggest a diverging opinion.

In brief 11 pages of nothing, an absolute vacuum. This is normal because the defense itself indicates that important revelations will be presented later.

Clearly the show is in the hall where armchair detectives brew the air with unrelenting constancy in the pretentious vacuity

The abundance of useless words is a clear sign of mental inferiority state ------> "unrelenting constancy in the pretentious vacuity" <--- like the pot calling the kettle black.

So instead of you providing some quality information, you decided to post the above. What was your previous handle before you were banned.....

[saminoz]

Well for one thing it was you who claimed I would eat my words like you knew something. Not me!

But to be totally honest, if what she has to say isn't brought out in court as evidence, then I really don't care what she has to say at all.

For every Psychiatrist who takes the stand to say the accused was crazy at the time of the murder, you will find another that will say he was not. For every Forensic Expert who takes the stand and says this happened or that, you will find another to say it didn't happen that way at all.

From what I understand the DNA Testing Equipment doesn't think or lie. It just prints out if it matches or it doesn't. Now it is up to the Defense Team to try and prove why it didn't do that, if it didn't.

Oh dear dear me....but is totally reliant on information supplied and where from !! When the Prosecution and/or RTP show how they obtained and passed on that same DNA I will believe the findings if it's shown to be above reproach...They haven't done that yet and I wonder why?! As it must be so easy to do if everything is above board.

Both coroners have taken accurate DNA profiles. There is a record Nige. They carried out Forensic grade Autopsy's. That is extremely thorough. I think you will find Hannah was identified by her DNA to avoid the family having to suffer the horror of the ID.

Sorry I think you misunderstood mate...I'm referring to the prosecutors DNA that doesn't seem to have made a appearance yet! I have know doubt about the authenticity of UK DNA collection etc. Goldbuggy was basing his comments on the defense discrediting the RTP DNA I thought...if I'm wrong about what he was saying so be it lol...not saying sorry

The defence doesn't really have to discredit the prosecutions DNA evidence. The RTP and prosecution have managed to do that all by themselves.

[IslandLover]

These photographs definitely appear to be showing a hammer underneath the hoe.

A hammer?

I've only had a small glass of wine. To the right of the hoe blade there appears to be the pointed part of the metal end of a hammer and to the left of the hoe blade there appears to be a wooden hammer handle. It's as thought the metal part is not attached to the handle. The sort of hammer like the pic I'm attaching. Surely someone else can see this?!

abso-bloody-lutely!

@catsanddogs - I honestly can't tell from that picture of the hoe in the vegetable garden but wasn't it mentioned in court testimony earlier in the trial that a hammer was also used as a murder weapon?

[saminoz]

A wider angle for you..

Hannah-Witheridge-FB-v2-hoe-web.jpg

Thanks. But so you see the sharp edges/angles on that piece of wood that was lying there and the police picked up? And compare that to the other photos where the wood appears to have been rounded at the edges? And the angle that the wood is lying is different on the different pics. Makes me wonder why the police were happy to have that little bit of investigating filmed?

Personally I don't' think that there was a hammer in either picture and that the change in angle simply resulted in someone standing the hoe more upright against the fence and subsequently changing the perspective. I think the "rounding" of the edges is a trick of light.

Surely, what is more telling is that the alleged murder weapon is still to be found there, in the garden, caked in blood, how many hours after the crime was discovered? It was certainly long enough to assemble many film crews and journalists and to get that "bigwig" RTP showman to the island for his photoshoot!!

Should not the hoe have been bagged, tagged and taken away into evidence for safe storage and chain of custody process as soon as the first responders were on the scene? Certainly not hours later so that valuable evidence could possibly deteriorate or be compromised just so some RTP cretin can get his 15 minutes of fame?

A further example of how police work (sic) comes very much second to Thai politics and glory grabbing.

Edited September 23, 2015 by saminoz

[AleG]

Ok so you don't care, not a lot you do care about apart from a guilty verdict is there.

I care about the 2 True Victims in this case which is Hannah and David. Therefore I do not want to see 2 Accused Rapists and Murderers walk free until it is proven beyond a "Reasonable Doubt" they are in fact Innocent. Do you see where they have done that as I don't.

Someone who may have forgotten to put the correct date on a DNA Document does not convince me the 2 Accused are innocent. Nor is the UK Justice System who fail to provide written declaration that this Mobile Phone belongs to David, as by law they are not allowed to, even if they give a verbal confirmation. Even that this case wasn't handled perfectly with apparent blunders. But none so far that proves the DNA Match with Hannah is false, and why after a year the Defense is still trying to prove that today.

You on the other hand think the victims here are the 2 Accused. You base your judgement on a case that wasn't handled perfectly, which has only been reported about by the Defense Team since last November as the Prosecution has said very little. On 2 Baby Faced Accused Rapists and Murderers who simply said they didn't do it and were tortured into a confession, with no proof so far any of that is true, and when anyone accused with a crime like this would lie through their teeth to save their own skins.

The Defense has a chance this week to prove their case, so let's let them do their job.

Some people have lost the plot on what the crime under trial is, also that the maxim "Innocent until proven guilty" also applies to the people that investigated this crime, who are being accused of conspiring to frame two innocent men on the basis of rumors and propaganda.

Of course malfeasance by those that did the investigation and evidence analysis is the only plausible explanation of why the evidence would be false, the defense is of course not going to say that in the actual court since they would be expected to provide real evidence to support such claims; on the other hand, in the "Court of Public Opinion", on which they depend to finance their activities, everything goes.

[IslandLover]

"At the end of the wooden part of the hoe where the blade is attached seems to be a metal bit that protrudes out the back? Or is it a hammer lying underneath the hoe?"

YES! On this particular photo, there is indeed, a hammer underneath the hoe!

It is positioned just in the opposite direction, with the wooden handle pointing to 11o'clock, touching the the green leaf on the top (the blunt end of a hammer on the left side)

Thank you RWA! STRIKE!

This is pretty significant, another weapon in the mix that has not been tested and gone missing.

Mind you, I'm sure we'll have a troll come along soon and say leave this to the capable RTP detectives

Well I am not a troll and you are wrong in your assumptions. Another angle shows what you think is a claw to be a piece of concrete.

Brit3.jpg

It just looks like a piece of wood to me. The edges are too square/sharp to be the more rounded handle of a claw hammer.

[StealthEnergiser]

Burmese men defence lawyers challenge Thai police to revise murder theory after victims’ DNA found on murder weapon

Defence lawyers representing the two Burmese men accused of raping and killing Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge in Koh Tao last September have challenged Thai police to revise their theory of the murders, after only the victims’ DNA was found on the murder weapon.

A court ordered DNA retest of crucial evidence mid-trial found no DNA from the two accused killers on a garden hoe which is alleged to be the murder weapon.

Forensic Science Officer Worawee Waiyawuth, from the Central Institute of Forensic Science (CIFS) in Bangkok, which was charged with the re-testing, said their laboratory found most of the DNA on the handle of the hoe came from Ms Witheridge.

“She had obviously held the hoe for some time. Her DNA traces, which were not blood, were taken from the handle. Her blood was on the blade,” said Mr Waiyawuth.

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/burmese_men_defence_lawyers_challenge_thai_police_to_revise_murder_theory_after_victims_dna_found_on_murder_weapon_1_4242304

[Emster23]

Ok prediction time, given developments

B2 will get not guilty verdict. RTP will reinvestigate, and given David's DNA was found on handle, it is clear he murdered Hannah, then drown himself in remorse. Num nutts and friend were walking down the beach with a few golf clubs, it was night time and dark, and they just practiced some of their driving skills, not knowing they were mutilating corpses in murder-suicide crime scene. Case closed.

[Equalizer]

I think it's obvious that it is a different one and is broken across the blade.

What appears obvious for the majority of reasonable minded people such as a seriously flawed investigation and trial is not obvious for those who for whatever reason seem hell bent on backing the official RTP "story". Its worth noting however that such a minority of people who believe this story all seem to have connections to K.T.

Those two pics are the same hoe

[thailandchilli]

I think it's obvious that it is a different one and is broken across the blade.

What appears obvious for the majority of reasonable minded people such as a seriously flawed investigation and trial is not obvious for those who for whatever reason seem hell bent on backing the official RTP "story". Its worth noting however that such a minority of people who believe this story all seem to have connections to K.T.

Those two pics are the same hoe

Sorry not sure what pics your referring to but I've re posted the 2 separate hoes below.

[StealthEnergiser]

Follow

Jonathan Head‏@pakhead

At #kohtao murder trial today. Defence have Aust forensic expert but she can't testify till police show documents that back their DNA tests

[StealthEnergiser]

Follow

Jonathan Head‏@pakhead

#kohtao murder trial all attention still on police DNA tests - only evidence linking defendants to crime. Were tests reliable or not?

[somo]

I care about the 2 True Victims in this case which is Hannah and David. Therefore I do not want to see 2 Accused Rapists and Murderers walk free until it is proven beyond a "Reasonable Doubt" they are in fact Innocent. Do you see where they have done that as I don't.

Someone who may have forgotten to put the correct date on a DNA Document does not convince me the 2 Accused are innocent. Nor is the UK Justice System who fail to provide written declaration that this Mobile Phone belongs to David, as by law they are not allowed to, even if they give a verbal confirmation. Even that this case wasn't handled perfectly with apparent blunders. But none so far that proves the DNA Match with Hannah is false, and why after a year the Defense is still trying to prove that today.

You on the other hand think the victims here are the 2 Accused. You base your judgement on a case that wasn't handled perfectly, which has only been reported about by the Defense Team since last November as the Prosecution has said very little. On 2 Baby Faced Accused Rapists and Murderers who simply said they didn't do it and were tortured into a confession, with no proof so far any of that is true, and when anyone accused with a crime like this would lie through their teeth to save their own skins.

The Defense has a chance this week to prove their case, so let's let them do their job.

This typify's the bias being shown by some posters in favour of a conviction. It is for the prosecution to provide evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendants are guilty not for them to prove their innocence. So far they have clearly not done so or indeed provided any evidence other than to say "We know they did it" They have unfortunately lost or destroyed what evidence there was and given laughable reasons for doing so. In any western court the case would never have even reached the trial stage but I guess we will be subjected to the charade a while longer. It seems that for some here the mere accusation by the police is proof of guilt which demonstrates a ridiculously high level of trust in the RTP

[thailandchilli]

Follow

Jonathan Head‏@pakhead

At #kohtao murder trial today. Defence have Aust forensic expert but she can't testify till police show documents that back their DNA tests

Oh brilliant, how much more of this ludicrous situation can be taken and the families are there witnessing this for gods sake!!

Edited September 23, 2015 by thailandchilli

[retarius]

This baffles me....it is so simple...does the DNA match the semen found on the girl. The UK has the semen, why don't they test it? What about the court getting additional evidence before it decides? What on earth is that all about....aren't you supposed to present your case in court?

Overall this has been a shameful advert for Thailand's police and judicial procedures.

[Fat Haggis]

I don't care what it is unless it is some Trade Secret or a Military Secret which could harm Thailand. It should be made public in a public trial, if it can be used in any way. I don't care if these documents came from the Pope himself. If it was the Prosecution that did this everyone here would be jumping up and down and screaming how unfair this is. .

Ok so you don't care, not a lot you do care about apart from a guilty verdict is there.

I care about the 2 True Victims in this case which is Hannah and David. Therefore I do not want to see 2 Accused Rapists and Murderers walk free until it is proven beyond a "Reasonable Doubt" they are in fact Innocent. Do you see where they have done that as I don't.

Someone who may have forgotten to put the correct date on a DNA Document does not convince me the 2 Accused are innocent. Nor is the UK Justice System who fail to provide written declaration that this Mobile Phone belongs to David, as by law they are not allowed to, even if they give a verbal confirmation. Even that this case wasn't handled perfectly with apparent blunders. But none so far that proves the DNA Match with Hannah is false, and why after a year the Defense is still trying to prove that today.

You on the other hand think the victims here are the 2 Accused. You base your judgement on a case that wasn't handled perfectly, which has only been reported about by the Defense Team since last November as the Prosecution has said very little. On 2 Baby Faced Accused Rapists and Murderers who simply said they didn't do it and were tortured into a confession, with no proof so far any of that is true, and when anyone accused with a crime like this would lie through their teeth to save their own skins.

The Defense has a chance this week to prove their case, so let's let them do their job.

So you DON'T believe in the old saying "Innocent until PROVEN Guilty" then? not a single shred of evidence presented so far by the prosecution would convict these two... that is the whole point, a point you constantly argue against!!!

[BritTim]

Ok prediction time, given developments

B2 will get not guilty verdict. RTP will reinvestigate, and given David's DNA was found on handle, it is clear he murdered Hannah, then drown himself in remorse. Num nutts and friend were walking down the beach with a few golf clubs, it was night time and dark, and they just practiced some of their driving skills, not knowing they were mutilating corpses in murder-suicide crime scene. Case closed.

You forgot to mention that the running man CCTV, in retrospect, is the spitting image of the 1.90 m David, not as erroneously believed earlier the 1.49 m Burmese kid. David is running around in a distracted state just before inflicting multiple stab wounds to himself, banging himself on the left rear side of the head and then running into the sea to complete his suicide. Actually, why should the RTP not try to paint this scenario. Without all the attention the case has received, they would have got away with an equally ludicrous story.

[Scott]

Continued discussion about other members rather than sticking to the topic will result in suspension.

[fireplay]

Follow

45]

Jonathan Head‏@pakhead

At #kohtao murder trial today. Defence have Aust forensic expert but she can't testify till police show documents that back their DNA tests

Oh brilliant, how much more of this ludicrous situation can be taken and the families are there witnessing this for gods sake!!

Wait a second. Is this some sort of tactic to keep expert witnesses from testifying? Where are the damn documents? What the hell do the police have over there....this is i'm...utterly speechless.

I really hope this lame excuse doesn't work....

Please more commentary...why don't the defense have this documents already....and why do they need them? To show the lack of a match or what.

[phuketandsee]

I know I'm clutching at straws here - aren't we all? (well most of us) but I find it encouraging that the Witheridge family, representatives from the UK police, British embassy personnel and the BBC are at the trial this week. I pray this will encourage the judges to take their verdict very seriously.

I know, I know, TIT - but hope springs eternal

[thailandchilli]

Follow

45]

Jonathan Head‏@pakhead

At #kohtao murder trial today. Defence have Aust forensic expert but she can't testify till police show documents that back their DNA tests

Oh brilliant, how much more of this ludicrous situation can be taken and the families are there witnessing this for gods sake!!

Wait a second. Is this some sort of tactic to keep expert witnesses from testifying? Where are the damn documents? What the hell do the police have over there....this is i'm...utterly speechless.

I really hope this lame excuse doesn't work....

Please more commentary...why don't the defense have this documents already....and why do they need them? To show the lack of a match or what.

Its beyond words to express how outrageous this tactic is being played by the prosecution. Using every tool in their arsenal to stop a fair trial and ultimate justice for the victims

[Lorn]

I care about the 2 True Victims in this case which is Hannah and David. Therefore I do not want to see 2 Accused Rapists and Murderers walk free until it is proven beyond a "Reasonable Doubt" they are in fact Innocent. Do you see where they have done that as I don't.

Someone who may have forgotten to put the correct date on a DNA Document does not convince me the 2 Accused are innocent. Nor is the UK Justice System who fail to provide written declaration that this Mobile Phone belongs to David, as by law they are not allowed to, even if they give a verbal confirmation. Even that this case wasn't handled perfectly with apparent blunders. But none so far that proves the DNA Match with Hannah is false, and why after a year the Defense is still trying to prove that today.

You on the other hand think the victims here are the 2 Accused. You base your judgement on a case that wasn't handled perfectly, which has only been reported about by the Defense Team since last November as the Prosecution has said very little. On 2 Baby Faced Accused Rapists and Murderers who simply said they didn't do it and were tortured into a confession, with no proof so far any of that is true, and when anyone accused with a crime like this would lie through their teeth to save their own skins.

The Defense has a chance this week to prove their case, so let's let them do their job.

This typify's the bias being shown by some posters in favour of a conviction. It is for the prosecution to provide evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendants are guilty not for them to prove their innocence. So far they have clearly not done so or indeed provided any evidence other than to say "We know they did it" They have unfortunately lost or destroyed what evidence there was and given laughable reasons for doing so. In any western court the case would never have even reached the trial stage but I guess we will be subjected to the charade a while longer. It seems that for some here the mere accusation by the police is proof of guilt which demonstrates a ridiculously high level of trust in the RTP

It's not that there were a few blunders, it's that everything that could conceivably be done wrong, has been. The confession was obtained, without any video recording, using a dodgy translator, and has now been shown to bear 0 similarity to what actually transpired in the murder.

We have murder weapons not tested, important footage not watched or not asked for or available, clothing not tested or available. None of the police dealing with DNA recording their part correctly, it not even being sent to the right place to be tested independently, none of the police able to testify coherently. Is it really possible for every officer to be this incompetent, considering the best in the country were supposedly brought in to solve this case. And let's not forget that the prosecutor sent the file back to the police multiple times to sort out the problems in it. Yet despite them being made aware of the problems with the case and being told to fix them multiple times, this is the best they could come up with?

A conspiracy to frame these boys may sound "out there" to some, but is it really more reasonable to believe that the entire police force has 0 idea how to do even the basics of an investigation correctly and continues to do everything incorrectly throughout, despite their mistakes being pointed out to them time and time again?

P.S Of course let's not forget that for a while there seemed to be a very competent investigation going on, with strong leads such as suspects caught on film and a certain father saying his son had been on the island but had returned to university. Usually when i return to visit the place my parents live, they know about it. I don't think they've ever thought I went home for a visit when I actually didn't. Oh well I guess we will never know how much better the investigation would have gone if not for the unfortunate coincidence that that policeman, who seemed to be leading a very good investigation, was promoted to work elsewhere. I hope his promotion has led to him solving many equally high- profile cases, and that the mess those he left behind have made, doesn't show that it would have been far more prudent to delay his promotion.

[smedly]

They did allow the defense to independently test it, the defense refused to do so.

Sigh! You keep repeating this, and I need to keep correcting what may mislead the casual reader. The RTP did not offer independent testing of the semen sample. They claimed (unconvincingly) that it was "all used up". They offered degraded replicated DNA from an intermediate stage in the testing process that cannot be shown with confidence to have any relationship to any original semen sample.

Well, with 2 DNA Samples collected from the 2 Accused in Court, and the UK Forensics having Hannah's DNA, then the Defense should easily be able to prove they don't match. Hannah's Body was returned home shortly after the autopsy in Thailand so all things should be still the same. I would think.

So let them prove it on their own terms then.

If they don't then why not?

You are confused again I think, you say that the UK Forensics have HAnnah's DNA, yes they obviously do as they have made an autopsy, they have with no doubt HER DNA, but we don't know if they have the rapists DNA as the body was embalmed before it was sent back, it is the procedure, there is a good chance that they actually don't have the rapist's DNA in fact.

They could compare Hannah's DNA (like you wrote) and the B2's DNA and I can tell you with 100% certainty that there would be no match, first clue Hannah is a woman and the B2 are men, here you are, no match... so please be precise when you write something, you have confused Hannah's DNA and the DNA found in her body before, when you tried to spin the results of the hoe analysis.

One more time : Hannah's DNA (HER own DNA) is obviously avalaible for testing and hasn't been tempered with, what is more than suspect and what we don't agree on is the DNA found in Hannah's body and on other "selected" evidences.

By the way, why the f** the DNA found on cigarettes -located quite far from the scene- was seen as more relevant than the murder weapon or Hannah's clothes or the blood in the sand ??? this investigation could have been done in a way that would have prevented any doubt, giving strong and irrefutable evidences, if procedures had been followed, but it didn't happen for whatever reason (call us conspiracy theorists if you want, but there are so many mistakes here that it is difficult to just see that as unprofessional).

If you or AleG can't admit that, there is actually nothing more to say... you call us conspiracy theorist or speculators, but we all care about one thing : justice for the two innocent victims and proper punishment to the beasts who did this, What about your motivation ?

as usual you guys have it all wrong again, your blatant ignorance of how a basic court system works is astounding, it is not up to the defense to make a case, it is up to the prosecution and when they present that case in court it must be irrefutable and backed up with solid evidence to prove that dna matches - you have been told over and over that they have failed to do this, how many times

also this dna trace on the hoe is a real weird one, to me it sounds like someone has made an attempt to plant dna from the accused and failed

[BritTim]

This baffles me....it is so simple...does the DNA match the semen found on the girl. The UK has the semen, why don't they test it? What about the court getting additional evidence before it decides? What on earth is that all about....aren't you supposed to present your case in court?

Overall this has been a shameful advert for Thailand's police and judicial procedures.

The UK has the semen, why don't they test it?

Let me be clear about where I stand.

I think it unlikely the UK has a semen sample. Under normal circumstances, the body would be embalmed before being flown to the UK where the UK autopsies were performed. This will almost for sure have destroyed semen DNA. There is a small chance the RAF might have flown the bodies back without embalming, but I think we would know if this happened.

Assuming we trust the RTP's statements that a rape occurred, and that a semen sample did originally exist (likely, but cannot be uncritically assumed) then there is no logical reason why such a sample should not still exist. There is testimony in court that the semen sample was "used up", and no testimony to the contrary. One prosecution witness when asked about availability of samples for retesting stated that replicated DNA from an intermediate testing state was available. It is curious if the original samples still existed that this would not be mentioned, but it was perhaps considered "not relevant".

If, indeed, a semen sample does still exist, the judges should insist on an independent retesting of it, preferably by a world class international laboratory. If there are cost concerns, I (and I am sure many others) would be very happy to donate towards the cost. I want the truth.

[StealthEnergiser]

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Jonathan Head‏@pakhead

At #kohtao murder trial today. Defence have Aust forensic expert but she can't testify till police show documents that back their DNA tests

Oh brilliant, how much more of this ludicrous situation can be taken and the families are there witnessing this for gods sake!!

Wait a second. Is this some sort of tactic to keep expert witnesses from testifying? Where are the damn documents? What the hell do the police have over there....this is i'm...utterly speechless.

I really hope this lame excuse doesn't work....

Please more commentary...why don't the defense have this documents already....and why do they need them? To show the lack of a match or what.

Its beyond words to express how outrageous this tactic is being played by the prosecution. Using every tool in their arsenal to stop a fair trial and ultimate justice for the victims

This has really got the RTP in a corner and proven what everyone has been saying they have no evidence.

It has been a setup from the start if not the police would happily hand over their papers, how was this shambles ever allowed to go to trial ?

Thankfully we now have social media to expose these practices .

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I care about the 2 True Victims in this case which is Hannah and David. Therefore I do not want to see 2 Accused Rapists and Murderers walk free until it is proven beyond a "Reasonable Doubt" they are in fact Innocent. Do you see where they have done that as I don't.

Someone who may have forgotten to put the correct date on a DNA Document does not convince me the 2 Accused are innocent. Nor is the UK Justice System who fail to provide written declaration that this Mobile Phone belongs to David, as by law they are not allowed to, even if they give a verbal confirmation. Even that this case wasn't handled perfectly with apparent blunders. But none so far that proves the DNA Match with Hannah is false, and why after a year the Defense is still trying to prove that today.

You on the other hand think the victims here are the 2 Accused. You base your judgement on a case that wasn't handled perfectly, which has only been reported about by the Defense Team since last November as the Prosecution has said very little. On 2 Baby Faced Accused Rapists and Murderers who simply said they didn't do it and were tortured into a confession, with no proof so far any of that is true, and when anyone accused with a crime like this would lie through their teeth to save their own skins.

The Defense has a chance this week to prove their case, so let's let them do their job.

This typify's the bias being shown by some posters in favour of a conviction. It is for the prosecution to provide evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendants are guilty not for them to prove their innocence. So far they have clearly not done so or indeed provided any evidence other than to say "We know they did it" They have unfortunately lost or destroyed what evidence there was and given laughable reasons for doing so. In any western court the case would never have even reached the trial stage but I guess we will be subjected to the charade a while longer. It seems that for some here the mere accusation by the police is proof of guilt which demonstrates a ridiculously high level of trust in the RTP

It's not that there were a few blunders, it's that everything that could conceivably be done wrong, has been. The confession was obtained, without any video recording, using a dodgy translator, and has now been shown to bear 0 similarity to what actually transpired in the murder.

We have murder weapons not tested, important footage not watched or not asked for or available, clothing not tested or available. None of the police dealing with DNA recording their part correctly, it not even being sent to the right place to be tested independently, none of the police able to testify coherently. Is it really possible for every officer to be this incompetent, considering the best in the country were supposedly brought in to solve this case. And let's not forget that the prosecutor sent the file back to the police multiple times to sort out the problems in it. Yet despite them being made aware of the problems with the case and being told to fix them multiple times, this is the best they could come up with?

A conspiracy to frame these boys may sound "out there" to some, but is it really more reasonable to believe that the entire police force has 0 idea how to do even the basics of an investigation correctly and continues to do everything incorrectly throughout, despite their mistakes being pointed out to them time and time again?

P.S Of course let's not forget that for a while there seemed to be a very competent investigation going on, with strong leads such as suspects caught on film and a certain father saying his son had been on the island but had returned to university. Usually when i return to visit the place my parents live, they know about it. I don't think they've ever thought I went home for a visit when I actually didn't. Oh well I guess we will never know how much better the investigation would have gone if not for the unfortunate coincidence that that policeman, who seemed to be leading a very good investigation, was promoted to work elsewhere. I hope his promotion has led to him solving many equally high- profile cases, and that the mess those he left behind have made, doesn't show that it would have been far more prudent to delay his promotion.

"Is it really possible for every officer to be this incompetent" - yes.

"considering the best in the country were supposedly brought in to solve this case" - Define "best" in relation to "at what?"

Promotions in Thailand are through cronyism and paying money to get a higher rank. We know where the money comes from. Seniority does not reflect competence.

Maybe in this case "the best" means "the best" at obeying and not rocking the official story, which came out very early on from the top?