Thai editorial: In teaching English, say it first, grammar later

[JAG]

ALL languages are learned in spoken form long before any writing or reading is seriously inserted. Further, all languages were spoken before a written form evolved. We even think Neanderthals had a spoken language.

They did, in fact in some of the more remote areas of the West Country it is still spoken!

[noahvail]

When I first met my wife, I discovered that her spelling, grammar, and vocabulary were excellent. She ran an NGO, and is quite intelligent with a network of contacts across the country. Her spoken English, though, was horrendous, to the point of being very difficult to understand. After being with me a while now, she can pronounce most English words properly.

When I met her high school English teacher (6 years with the same lady...yes, a little town in Isaan), I could not understand a single sentence the teacher spoke in English. That didn't seem to bother the teacher, who is still teaching.

It will take two generations...about 40 years...to improve that situation. Of course, that's if the current and future crops of college students of English students go out into the wild armed with good conversational skills.

[Jeremy50]

You can't communicate effectively unless you know how to change the verb to match context - eat, eats, ate, has eaten, is eating, was eating, will eat, is going to eat, will have eaten, had eaten etc. Grammar is essential otherwise people speak like bar girls - you eat mango today, you eat mango tomorrow, you eat mango now and that's just about it.

'Bar girl English' is better than no English, it's when you hear their western 'husbands' speaking like a bar girl that is really tragic.

'you no give me enough money'

'I no have money, you ask money too much!'

'we go ATM'

'here no have ATM'

[Muirton]

Most of the kids around here don't give a d2mn about English! They probably don't understand why they should be learning it, when in fact it's the rest of the world that should be learning Thai.

But there was one kid here last year that could speech very good conversational English....which I though would auger well for him in the future.

"... which I though would auger well for him in the future." This is not correct English. You should be using "augur". My point being "Who Cares?" If you verbally get across to someone what you intend to communicate, you're way ahead of the grammarian jumping all over you for using the rong wurd.

[writeshack]

I am amazed by how many people posting here, criticizing Thais for speaking and writing poor English, quite obviously cannot write good English.

[Loaded]

I have talked to plenty of Uni students. My wife runs a private tutoring school and so I interact with most of her students. Generally their grammar is excellent but they can't reply if I ask them what their name is ! I don't have an accent either...

The simple fact remains, dump them on their own in the middle of London or New York, 95% would be hard pressed to book into a hotel and get a meal.

I'm not sure what you are criticising here: the Thai education system or your wife's language school.

[gandalf12]

I wonder how many foreigners can Read, Write and Speak fluent Thai? Not many if any on TV

[cornishcarlos]

I have talked to plenty of Uni students. My wife runs a private tutoring school and so I interact with most of her students. Generally their grammar is excellent but they can't reply if I ask them what their name is ! I don't have an accent either...

The simple fact remains, dump them on their own in the middle of London or New York, 95% would be hard pressed to book into a hotel and get a meal.

I'm not sure what you are criticising here: the Thai education system or your wife's language school.

When they 1st start with her, but I think you knew that...

She focuses mainly on conversation and they do improve rapidly

[eliotness]

I have talked to plenty of Uni students. My wife runs a private tutoring school and so I interact with most of her students. Generally their grammar is excellent but they can't reply if I ask them what their name is ! I don't have an accent either...

The simple fact remains, dump them on their own in the middle of London or New York, 95% would be hard pressed to book into a hotel and get a meal.

I'm not sure what you are criticising here: the Thai education system or your wife's language school.

In most tourist areas of England you would be hard pressed to find staff in hotels and food outlets that speak English as a first language.

[farangmick]

You can't communicate effectively unless you know how to change the verb to match context - eat, eats, ate, has eaten, is eating, was eating, will eat, is going to eat, will have eaten, had eaten etc. Grammar is essential otherwise people speak like bar girls - you eat mango today, you eat mango tomorrow, you eat mango now and that's just about it.

Sorry, I disagree. I was "taught" French the traditional way and like many friends who were not gifted in languages, we simply switched off. We were taught Latin (ok, a dead language) in a new way developed by Cambridge University. Basically a series of stories about a Romano/British family getting progressively more complex. Started at 11yrs, and by 16 I could read Pliny and Tacitus. No endless hours conjugating verbs. Educated Thais are very good at English grammar, but seem terrified of making a mistake when speaking. Let kids start by saying "I go toilet now" without being scared of getting the wrong tense, and then gradually get them to say "I am going to the toilet", or "I have been to the toilet."

[DavisH]

I wonder how many foreigners can Read, Write and Speak fluent Thai? Not many if any on TV

No, but they did not have 12 years of formal education in english under their belt. Many of my friends managed to become competent in a foreign language after 3 to 5 years of their secondary schooling. What can't high school Thai students cope with saying a few grammatically correct sentences in english? Unfortunately I've only ever met one Thai teacher who would communicate in english with their students. Mind you, this was a bilingual program, so they students were much better than the regular program students. It's all about exposure to communicative english from a young age. For a number of reasons, Thai students are much less shy to speak english with foreign teachers, as opposed to Thai teachers.

[Suttisan]

I only learned grammar when I was a teacher, I was never taught grammar at school, didn't even know what an adverb was until ten years ago. The grammar books I had to use in Thai government schools were incorrect anyway, having studied linguistics it is clear that a grammar based on many different languages is not easy to understand, the kids need to be reading and speaking.

[NeverSure]

Trust me, I'm a Doctor - a retired Professor of Languages.

Why would I trust a doctor? Isn't becoming a doctor another term for getting brainwashed?

Doctors have ruined our education system and you're wrong. Immersion is the best way to learn a language.

[z42]

Lots of interesting theories here. But simply put the goals need to be clearer.

There are lots of gifted and highly motivated students in Thai schools. But a toxic mix of abysmal administration, misguided perceptions from up high about the role of English, and general school / classroom woes all come together to limit the potential to improve overall English ability.

Til these problems are addressed any other new methods will have little impact, if any

[Fookhaht]

The internet is a very democratic institution: it allows everyone to participate in discussing any topic -- whether or not they have any knowledge or expertise about that topic.

Unfortunately, almost all the responses to and opinions expressed about this topic reveal a complete ignorance about the process of learning a second language.

1. Comparing the learning of one's native language to learning a second language is a false analogy. You are immersed in your first language from birth, 24 hours a day Starting to learn a second language around the age of 7 of 8 years of age in the classroom for even one hour a day will ensure that progress is painfully slow. Two years in a classroom is equivalent to one week in the country of the target language.

2. Those who advocates "speak first; grammar can come later" fail to realise that even the simplest phrases ("Hello, how are you") are based on correct grammar. There are three goals of language learning: reading, writing and speaking. The last one (speaking) is the hardest to acquire and requires years and years of practice.

3. Without some study of grammar all second-language speakers will speak fractured English -- O.K. for everyday communication, but a handicap when aiming for better-paying jobs (e.g. hotel receptionist).

4. To conduct an intelligent conversation in a second language requires approx. 3000 hours of study and practice -- that is, 10 hours a week for six years. Individual results may vary (some people have a "knack" for languages), but the average person will never speak truly fluently with a wide vocabulary without years of study and/or years spent in the country. How many farang do you know who speak fluent Thai? What percentage of the total number of permanent residents do they represent?

Trust me, I'm a Doctor - a retired Professor of Languages.

Doctor, can a person who does not speak a language teach it?

Thank God he's retired. Hopefully the theory will die with him.

Attacking someone personally (it's called an "ad hominem" argument) does not invalidate the opinions that person expressed. "Ad hominem" attacks are employed by people who are either ignorant or immature or who have no counter-argument. It is better to keep quiet in order not to embarrass oneself.

The arguments have already been effectively made. No need to rehash. But nice try, trying to hang posters on your logic.

[NeverSure]

Doctor, can a person who does not speak a language teach it?

Thank God he's retired. Hopefully the theory will die with him.

Attacking someone personally (it's called an "ad hominem" argument) does not invalidate the opinions that person expressed. "Ad hominem" attacks are employed by people who are either ignorant or immature or who have no counter-argument. It is better to keep quiet in order not to embarrass oneself.

It seems that the more "experts" are allowed to permeate the system, the worse education becomes. That's the pattern for my whole life. I totally disagree with you from life experience. Have you ever done anything other than go to school and teach?

[lkv]

I wonder how many foreigners can Read, Write and Speak fluent Thai? Not many if any on TV

That's a bad comparison, English is an universal language. When a tourist lands in a foreign country they don't start talking in Thai do they?

I'm European, English is not my native language, took me many years of solid grammar first and about 8 years of travelling around SE Asia to become fluent in English and to sound natural (albeit with a small accent). So I could do it, other Asian people could do it, don't see any reason why Thai people couldn't or shouldn't.

Edited September 23, 2015 by lkv

[attrayant]

Soooo... How did we all learn our native languages? In a classroom studying grammar?

No, we learned from our mothers and others and we could speak and listen long before we saw a classroom. The grammar doesn't begin to make sense until one knows the language just a bit.

The author is absolutely correct about methods, and that the present system doesn't work as proved by the clear fact that Thai children can't speak English after 12 years of it.

Google "1st language aquisition" and "2nd language learning". They are a not the same and we should avoid comaparing 2nd language learning to 1st language aquisition.

There's also L2 acquisition; something I experienced myself when I was left with a Vietnamese babysitter after school from age 6-9. It was only a couple hours a day but I became functionally conversant with zero formal teaching and to this day still have no understanding of Vietnamese grammar. Had I gone on to pursue the grammar in my early teens, I'd probably be fully literate as well as fluent.

[Cake Monster]

In order to speak, and to listen to English to a level of competence that is acceptable, there is a major " module " of learning that many of the children are never subjected too, in either their School day, are home life.

It is probably the most important module, and that is the use of " Phonics " in the speaking of English.

" Phonics " is the " tool " of speaking and listening to English, and are taught as the very first thing that young children learn in the UK schools establishments at the age of 2 or 3.

Without this " tool ", there is very little chance that many of the children in Thailand will ever speak an acceptable level of English, and those that do speak English, will continue to speak a very awkward level of the language, that portrays poor education and teaching to the world.

[spiritrace]

I find it curious that Thai people can not learn English while at the same time Chinese people are driven to learn. I met a girl (self taught English) who learned from watching the Sopranos. She spoke with a New Jersey accent. I loved talking with her. We spent hours on the phone.

Another one I met, also self taught spoke perfectly. Like talking to a neighbor.

The one thing they all had in common was a great desire to learn English.

Here at our University there are a number of Chinese grad student and others who are University staff. All their children refuse to speak Chinese, only English. The kids all say English is easier and more descriptive with less words. All the kids go to classes set up by the parents to continue learning Chinese.

With Thai people, there is no incentive or desire to learn. No reason to learn. At the same time the Chinese see English as the universal language, the language of business and science. Also, most of them prefer American English as opposed to British English. American English is smoother and more descriptive and has a lot more meaningful slang and much easier to understand. English is also not just a British or American thing. Other nations use it as well.

These are not my opinions but what many Chinese have told me.

[inutil]

Phonics is important, but i cant imagine teaching an M1-M3 class A A Apple. B B Bear...

They probably need it though. Around the second month of teaching my class, id started to become deeply suspicious that they couldnt read, so i gave them a reading test. The intention was to use a passage from the previous year textbook (so M2 would read a short passage from M1, M3 from M2 and so on). The rationale was that without coaching theyd certainly struggle a little, but should be able to at least say the more common words. It turned out i had been wildly overestimating their reading ability. By the middle of the first class it had become apparent that this plan was out the window, so i switched it down for the next class. Then down again. Eventually i settled on a P4 text. Almost all of the students struggled. Only M3 could read with any competence and fluency. Though i perhaps overstate this a little.

The amazing thing though was that all the students could easily read their current textbook and in particular the passage they'd most recently been exposed to. To a man and woman, it was near flawless. The conclusion could only have been that they'd spent agonising lessons repeating and memorising the text like a mantra without reading a single word. Arguably theyd spent their entire Middle school lives doing exactly this (possibly in the name of "speaking"), moving from one unintelligible text to another. Listen-repeat - Listen-repeat - Memorise - Regurgitate.

Again your left with the sense that people tasked with understanding the difference between reading and repeating should have picked this up in the 3 or so years they had with these kids. My worry and concern is that perhaps they have, but the test isnt really geared toward this distinction? Maybe understanding and (actual) reading skill is a kind of luxury given that middle school teachers are faced with a new intake of students every year that simply dont have the foundation skills necessary for middle school English. Possibly its just too much to fix, so they go with the easiest solution: faking it.

There are so many moving parts... its sort of hard to know where you need to jam in the crowbar to make the machinery stop without the whole thing falling apart. Is middle school English simply failing to pick up and address the failures of Primary school English, and in turn, is primary school English focusing too much on mirroring and preparing the students for the processes and methods of middle school? It seems to be a bit of a feedback loop.

Edited September 24, 2015 by inutil

[toybits]

I taught my kids English. They Aced their TOEFL exams. I am not an English teacher.

Well done. A good result. Now try it with a mixed ability class of 37 12 year olds, 2 0f whom are at different levels on the asperges/autism spectrum and one who is in tears because her puppy died last night. I'm not disparaging what you did - but it's not the same as "teaching".

Which part of not an English Teacher did you NOT understand? Learning English starts at home. If their parents do not speak to there kids in English, it is more challenging to learn that language. Mass media is also not tuned in to English. There are hardly any sources where children can learn or practice their skill outside of the classroom. So in most cases, once the kids leave the classroom, they leave their English there as well.

Edited September 24, 2015 by toybits

[toybits]

Burmese speak better English as well...

Oh, that's because those jolly nice chaps from the "Empire Upon Which The Sun Never Set", were there to make their lives more interesting and worthwhile.

So how do you explain the Cambodians, an ex French colony, being better at english.

POL POT?

Edited September 24, 2015 by toybits

[JAG]

I taught my kids English. They Aced their TOEFL exams. I am not an English teacher.

Well done. A good result. Now try it with a mixed ability class of 37 12 year olds, 2 0f whom are at different levels on the asperges/autism spectrum and one who is in tears because her puppy died last night. I'm not disparaging what you did - but it's not the same as "teaching".

Which part of not an English Teacher did you NOT understand? Learning English starts at home. If their parents do not speak to there kids in English, it is more challenging to learn that language. Mass media is also not tuned in to English. There are hardly any sources where children can learn or practice their skill outside of the classroom. So in most cases, once the kids leave the classroom, they leave their English there as well.

Calm down. I was merely pointing out that your actions with your children, whilst praiseworthy, are not a solution to the problems and suggestions raised in the OP, nor are they applicable to the vast majority of children in the Thai education system.

If you choose to take it as a flame, so be it...

[toybits]

I taught my kids English. They Aced their TOEFL exams. I am not an English teacher.

Well done. A good result. Now try it with a mixed ability class of 37 12 year olds, 2 0f whom are at different levels on the asperges/autism spectrum and one who is in tears because her puppy died last night. I'm not disparaging what you did - but it's not the same as "teaching".

Which part of not an English Teacher did you NOT understand? Learning English starts at home. If their parents do not speak to there kids in English, it is more challenging to learn that language. Mass media is also not tuned in to English. There are hardly any sources where children can learn or practice their skill outside of the classroom. So in most cases, once the kids leave the classroom, they leave their English there as well.

Calm down. I was merely pointing out that your actions with your children, whilst praiseworthy, are not a solution to the problems and suggestions raised in the OP, nor are they applicable to the vast majority of children in the Thai education system.

If you choose to take it as a flame, so be it...

Let me break this down for you. Teaching does not have to be limited to only the class room. The students continue to learn even when they are outside of the classroom such as when they are at home. When their home is a kind of environment where there is absolutely no English spoken, then they are at a disadvantage. If their parents do not talk to them in English, they will have a harder time learning English. If their peers do not ....dada... nothing will reinforce their English education.

Then, there is the Teaching and Learning experience. A teacher or parent actively instructs their student/children on English skills. The student/children if properly motivated learns these skills. If the environment does not provide opportunities for learning English, how can you expect them to speak English?

How can you say that what I did with my kids in not the same as Teaching? Am I missing something here? Is there a minimum number of persons required for it to be called Teaching? If a grandmother shows her grandchild how to weave and the grandchild later on picks up the skill - is that not teaching?

[JAG]

In return let me break my post down. I said it was not "teaching" (note the inverted commas) in a classroom environment such as I described. What you have described, both in what you did with your children, and in the examples you have given, is not "teaching" in that sense. Again I have to insist that I am not belittling what you achieved in the slightest. Very few children have the parental support and input which your children enjoyed, and which you have just described, quite rightly, would benefit others. Those that do will of course thrive. The vast majority here do not. That is why this topic is discussing how to improve the teaching of English in Thai Schools.

[toybits]

The teaching-learning experience CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be limited to ONLY the classroom environment. Students MUST be given as many opportunities as possible to practice their English.

I understand that many parents of Thai Students cannot speak English like those of us who post on TVF. So how do you enhance that? How can those opportunities be increased? Where does experiential learning come in? Isn’t that what this is all about? Say it first – grammar later?

Where will they pick up the words if there are no words to pick? Where will those words come from? There is almost nothing on Thai Media – mainstream or alternative media which students can rely on. Not even Sesame Street is available to them.

If the Thai Education Ministry thinks they do not have to do anything and learning English in the classroom is enough– then they and those who agree with the Ministry are completely wrong.

There is no Political Will to change this. If so – then so be it. Majority of Thai Students will NOT learn English.

[JAG]

I agree.

[MaxYakov]

maybe if they actually left tv programs in english and had thai text under it they would pick it up a lot easier, translating every single tv show into thai is pretty bad, even in the west they leave some programs in the original language and use english text. Problem is everyone in Thailand thinks that the thai language is simply yhr only one in the world worth speaking, until they realize they are not as important as they think they are and start to leave shows in the original language with thai text they will continue to be english illiterate as they simply do not hear enough of it spoken in everyday life.

I theorized that they dubbed the movies to Thai instead of employing Thai subtitles because there were many illiterates that could not read Thai. Another advantage, though, is that they don't have to watch the screen to read the subtitles to follow the story. Finally, however, maybe they just don't want to have English permeating their entertainment audio and they get control of content by dubbing to Thai.

A notable exception to the dub-to-Thai rule was the Star Movie channel on cable that left the English soundtrack and supplied very good Thai subtitles.

Edited September 25, 2015 by MaxYakov

[GinBoy2]

I remember my Grandma telling me as a young boy, that when she first came to the US from Mexico, English was an easy language to speak badly. So long as she knew the word, she could string it together exactly as she would say it in Spanish, may of sounded weird, but it would be understood.

Ultimately she spoke perfect English, but it wasn't through studying English grammar books thats for sure