'Playing dead' isn't playing it right

[jayboy]

Actually it does matter what Thaksin's motives were & still are - power & enrichment. Thais have been politicised for decades and have voted in decent numbers in elections. The only difference since 2001 is that that politicisation is for or against Thaksin. And if you include vote buying, intimidation (red shirt villages for example), and brainwashing (2010 for example) it's not a very thoughtful politicisation.

The so-called elites. These are everywhere, within PTP & without, in Bangkok and locally throughout Thailand. Some are called influential people. I don't deny that there are those outside the scope of this debate. Pity though that some seem to view only one elite which tends to be used as a big stick to boost weak arguments.

In summary, no, Thaksin has not been any sort of catalyst for real change within Thailand. In truth he is a barrier to opening up the country politically & will continue to be so while he continues to interfere in its affairs.

You clearly belong to the simple minded school that believes Thailand's current problems can broadly be explained by the activities of one "bad man".This is quite a common perception especially among the Sino Thai urban middle class, not on the whole a group given to serious reflection.It is not however a view that can be sustained by anyone with a knowledge or understanding of Thai culture and history.The old elites themselves understand much better what is involved but to date they have failed, mainly because of dismal leadership, to pursue any sense of enlightened self interest which would give them a long term opportunity to preserve their wealth and influence.

I am not going to spend time refuting your comments since they contain, surprisingly in such a short post, many of the the lazy and intellectually bankrupt assumptions that have been demolished many times on this forum over the years.Suffice it to say your views on corruption and vote buying are not connected to reality.

The position, fort hose who are not blinded by ignorance and prejudice, is well summarised by Patrick Jory of the University of Queensland.

"The essence of the political conflict remains unchanged since it began in late 2005, when a

movement backed by Thailand’s conservative elite ousted the elected government of the

popular Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra. Today, a power bloc — consisting of the military, the

bureaucracy, and Sino–Thai banking and industry continues its struggle to preserve its political supremacy. This power

bloc is threatened by the politicisation of Thailand’s rural and urban working classes — whose

political potential Thaksin was the first to recognise and exploit.

The power bloc wages this struggle in ideological terms in the name of ‘reform’. But what is

endlessly debated in the pro-establishment media and by conservative intellectuals as a moral

issue — how to solve the problem of corrupt politicians, vote-buying, ignorant voters — is in reality

a political issue: how to accommodate the entry of millions of Thai citizens into Thailand’s

political process. The draft constitution’s oft-stated desire to rid Thai politics [3] of the former is

really an attempt to block the latter."

The slightly strange aspect is that these views are not considered the slightest bit controversial outside Thailand on all shades of political thought.One could expect the left wing/liberal side to come up with these conclusions but I have seen very similar sentiments expressed by the late Lee Kwan Yew.

..but of course only Thais (and reactionary "expats") can understand Thailand.

[khunken]

Actually it does matter what Thaksin's motives were & still are - power & enrichment. Thais have been politicised for decades and have voted in decent numbers in elections. The only difference since 2001 is that that politicisation is for or against Thaksin. And if you include vote buying, intimidation (red shirt villages for example), and brainwashing (2010 for example) it's not a very thoughtful politicisation.

The so-called elites. These are everywhere, within PTP & without, in Bangkok and locally throughout Thailand. Some are called influential people. I don't deny that there are those outside the scope of this debate. Pity though that some seem to view only one elite which tends to be used as a big stick to boost weak arguments.

In summary, no, Thaksin has not been any sort of catalyst for real change within Thailand. In truth he is a barrier to opening up the country politically & will continue to be so while he continues to interfere in its affairs.

You clearly belong to the simple minded school that believes Thailand's current problems can broadly be explained by the activities of one "bad man".This is quite a common perception especially among the Sino Thai urban middle class, not on the whole a group given to serious reflection.It is not however a view that can be sustained by anyone with a knowledge or understanding of Thai culture and history.The old elites themselves understand much better what is involved but to date they have failed, mainly because of dismal leadership, to pursue any sense of enlightened self interest which would give them a long term opportunity to preserve their wealth and influence.

I am not going to spend time refuting your comments since they contain, surprisingly in such a short post, many of the the lazy and intellectually bankrupt assumptions that have been demolished many times on this forum over the years.Suffice it to say your views on corruption and vote buying are not connected to reality.

The position, fort hose who are not blinded by ignorance and prejudice, is well summarised by Patrick Jory of the University of Queensland.

"The essence of the political conflict remains unchanged since it began in late 2005, when a

movement backed by Thailand’s conservative elite ousted the elected government of the

popular Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra. Today, a power bloc — consisting of the military, the

bureaucracy, and Sino–Thai banking and industry continues its struggle to preserve its political supremacy. This power

bloc is threatened by the politicisation of Thailand’s rural and urban working classes — whose

political potential Thaksin was the first to recognise and exploit.

The power bloc wages this struggle in ideological terms in the name of ‘reform’. But what is

endlessly debated in the pro-establishment media and by conservative intellectuals as a moral

issue — how to solve the problem of corrupt politicians, vote-buying, ignorant voters — is in reality

a political issue: how to accommodate the entry of millions of Thai citizens into Thailand’s

political process. The draft constitution’s oft-stated desire to rid Thai politics [3] of the former is

really an attempt to block the latter."

The slightly strange aspect is that these views are not considered the slightest bit controversial outside Thailand on all shades of political thought.One could expect the left wing/liberal side to come up with these conclusions but I have seen very similar sentiments expressed by the late Lee Kwan Yew.

..but of course only Thais (and reactionary "expats") can understand Thailand.

A short refutation of all that 'it's all the 'elites' rigmarole which some academics like the one you quote always cite.

That is the real lazy and basically ignorant take which you portray just like your refusal to accept that blatant vote buying and intimidation and amazingly corruption is either non existant or a 'small' problem. Even your quoted academic cites it but doesn't address a solution to it.

Citing Lee Kwan yew as a source for anything to do with democracy is the most unintelligent thing you have written so far & that says a lot.

But of course only those that ignore or distort the mess that Thaksin has got this country into are the intelligentsia that can 'save' the country. There you have the real simple minded and arrogant school of bar-stool 'thinking' which you seem to be a part of.

Edited September 26, 2015 by khunken

[jayboy]

Actually it does matter what Thaksin's motives were & still are - power & enrichment. Thais have been politicised for decades and have voted in decent numbers in elections. The only difference since 2001 is that that politicisation is for or against Thaksin. And if you include vote buying, intimidation (red shirt villages for example), and brainwashing (2010 for example) it's not a very thoughtful politicisation.

The so-called elites. These are everywhere, within PTP & without, in Bangkok and locally throughout Thailand. Some are called influential people. I don't deny that there are those outside the scope of this debate. Pity though that some seem to view only one elite which tends to be used as a big stick to boost weak arguments.

In summary, no, Thaksin has not been any sort of catalyst for real change within Thailand. In truth he is a barrier to opening up the country politically & will continue to be so while he continues to interfere in its affairs.

You clearly belong to the simple minded school that believes Thailand's current problems can broadly be explained by the activities of one "bad man".This is quite a common perception especially among the Sino Thai urban middle class, not on the whole a group given to serious reflection.It is not however a view that can be sustained by anyone with a knowledge or understanding of Thai culture and history.The old elites themselves understand much better what is involved but to date they have failed, mainly because of dismal leadership, to pursue any sense of enlightened self interest which would give them a long term opportunity to preserve their wealth and influence.

I am not going to spend time refuting your comments since they contain, surprisingly in such a short post, many of the the lazy and intellectually bankrupt assumptions that have been demolished many times on this forum over the years.Suffice it to say your views on corruption and vote buying are not connected to reality.

The position, fort hose who are not blinded by ignorance and prejudice, is well summarised by Patrick Jory of the University of Queensland.

"The essence of the political conflict remains unchanged since it began in late 2005, when a

movement backed by Thailand’s conservative elite ousted the elected government of the

popular Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra. Today, a power bloc — consisting of the military, the

bureaucracy, and Sino–Thai banking and industry continues its struggle to preserve its political supremacy. This power

bloc is threatened by the politicisation of Thailand’s rural and urban working classes — whose

political potential Thaksin was the first to recognise and exploit.

The power bloc wages this struggle in ideological terms in the name of ‘reform’. But what is

endlessly debated in the pro-establishment media and by conservative intellectuals as a moral

issue — how to solve the problem of corrupt politicians, vote-buying, ignorant voters — is in reality

a political issue: how to accommodate the entry of millions of Thai citizens into Thailand’s

political process. The draft constitution’s oft-stated desire to rid Thai politics [3] of the former is

really an attempt to block the latter."

The slightly strange aspect is that these views are not considered the slightest bit controversial outside Thailand on all shades of political thought.One could expect the left wing/liberal side to come up with these conclusions but I have seen very similar sentiments expressed by the late Lee Kwan Yew.

..but of course only Thais (and reactionary "expats") can understand Thailand.

A short refutation of all that 'it's all the 'elites' rigmarole which some academics like the one you quote always cite.

That is the real lazy and basically ignorant take which you portray just like your refusal to accept that blatant vote buying and intimidation and amazingly corruption is either non existant or a 'small' problem. Even your quoted academic cites it but doesn't address a solution to it.

Citing Lee Kwan yew as a source for anything to do with democracy is the most unintelligent thing you have written so far & that says a lot.

But of course only those that ignore or distort the mess that Thaksin has got this country into are the intelligentsia that can 'save' the country. There you have the real simple minded and arrogant school of bar-stool 'thinking' which you seem to be a part of.

The summary I provided was for the benefit of those with critical faculties intact.

I note your latest retort has descended into incoherence but to pick out one egregious error, the issue of vote buying has been been covered very thoroughly.No serious source now supposes that vote buying in Thailand has any effect on the outcome of elections.

You have completely missed the point of my reference to LKY which was to emphasise the almost universal consensus on the old vested interests attempting to block the newly politicised majority.

There is no shame in being out of your depth but I would politely suggest your time would be better repaid by some quiet homework on basics before attempting another half thought out response.

[erobando]

Actually it does matter what Thaksin's motives were & still are - power & enrichment. Thais have been politicised for decades and have voted in decent numbers in elections. The only difference since 2001 is that that politicisation is for or against Thaksin. And if you include vote buying, intimidation (red shirt villages for example), and brainwashing (2010 for example) it's not a very thoughtful politicisation.

The so-called elites. These are everywhere, within PTP & without, in Bangkok and locally throughout Thailand. Some are called influential people. I don't deny that there are those outside the scope of this debate. Pity though that some seem to view only one elite which tends to be used as a big stick to boost weak arguments.

In summary, no, Thaksin has not been any sort of catalyst for real change within Thailand. In truth he is a barrier to opening up the country politically & will continue to be so while he continues to interfere in its affairs.

You clearly belong to the simple minded school that believes Thailand's current problems can broadly be explained by the activities of one "bad man".This is quite a common perception especially among the Sino Thai urban middle class, not on the whole a group given to serious reflection.It is not however a view that can be sustained by anyone with a knowledge or understanding of Thai culture and history.The old elites themselves understand much better what is involved but to date they have failed, mainly because of dismal leadership, to pursue any sense of enlightened self interest which would give them a long term opportunity to preserve their wealth and influence.

I am not going to spend time refuting your comments since they contain, surprisingly in such a short post, many of the the lazy and intellectually bankrupt assumptions that have been demolished many times on this forum over the years.Suffice it to say your views on corruption and vote buying are not connected to reality.

The position, fort hose who are not blinded by ignorance and prejudice, is well summarised by Patrick Jory of the University of Queensland.

"The essence of the political conflict remains unchanged since it began in late 2005, when a

movement backed by Thailand’s conservative elite ousted the elected government of the

popular Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra. Today, a power bloc — consisting of the military, the

bureaucracy, and Sino–Thai banking and industry continues its struggle to preserve its political supremacy. This power

bloc is threatened by the politicisation of Thailand’s rural and urban working classes — whose

political potential Thaksin was the first to recognise and exploit.

The power bloc wages this struggle in ideological terms in the name of ‘reform’. But what is

endlessly debated in the pro-establishment media and by conservative intellectuals as a moral

issue — how to solve the problem of corrupt politicians, vote-buying, ignorant voters — is in reality

a political issue: how to accommodate the entry of millions of Thai citizens into Thailand’s

political process. The draft constitution’s oft-stated desire to rid Thai politics [3] of the former is

really an attempt to block the latter."

The slightly strange aspect is that these views are not considered the slightest bit controversial outside Thailand on all shades of political thought.One could expect the left wing/liberal side to come up with these conclusions but I have seen very similar sentiments expressed by the late Lee Kwan Yew.

..but of course only Thais (and reactionary "expats") can understand Thailand.

I think that view is not controversal in developed countries in the West because they aren't familiar with how things run in most developing countries, whether "democratic" or not. Politics is about people instead of policy and political parties are just groups of people who band together for when they think it benefits their goals of acheiving power. Plus, throw in the the military and police (really, factions within each) that act as political actors and the nuances of politics in developing countries makes little sense to them. Or, more likely, people reporting or giving opinions on politics here (politicians, academics, reports) understand the complexities but tend to phrase it in terms of an ideoligical struggle when it servers their own self-interests.

Thai politics -- at least among the Thai political parties -- in the dozen plus years have been pro-Thaksin and anti-Thaksin... but the fight isn't elites versus non-elites. It's those that support a old elite structure versus an newer elite structure based around Thaksin. The coups had nothing to do with idological policy. The coups occured to ensure that certain factions in the military retained power. They didn't care about "populist policy" one way or another but they cared a lot about attempts to restructure the military that would give Thaksin's allies more power and themselves less.

The voting hasn't been rural poor versus Bangkok elite. It has been geographical. Thaksin's party will keep on winning elections because his geographical support base (North and Northeast) is more populous than the also rural South. TRK/PPP/PTP fares better in Central Thailand, including Bangkok, than in the South. And In Bangkok, you'll do a lot better guessing how someone will vote based upon the geography of their family roots than their socio-economic class.

The problem with Thai electoral politics is that the priimary focus is on whether or not Thaksin (and other banned officials) can return to politics. Things like the health care scheme and accessibiliy to loans did make a difference to poorer people. But those things happened during the TRK's first term well over a decade ago.

The current military junta's interests are more complicated. Yes, they are anti-Thaksin. But many of their actions are also related to internal power/political struggles with other factions within the military.

Edited September 26, 2015 by erobando

[DavisH]

The military were politically active well before Thaksin did so. They blame him for the last 10 or more years, who do they blame for the previous 60 years? Thaksin also, because black magic told them he was coming?

The military are the biggest problem and they way they have imposed their views on the country has caused most of the problems present today and the attitude where the elite believe they are above any law.

Totally agree. Military should keep out of politics once and for all. Let the political parties duke it out at the polls....then let their voters duke it out in the street. Let there be a revolution. It's the only way to bring about long term change....it that does not work we will need to go back to an absolute monarchy.

[Reigntax]

The military were politically active well before Thaksin did so. They blame him for the last 10 or more years, who do they blame for the previous 60 years? Thaksin also, because black magic told them he was coming?

The military are the biggest problem and they way they have imposed their views on the country has caused most of the problems present today and the attitude where the elite believe they are above any law.

Reigntax ......How long have you been living here in Thailand.... you are a Farang... Thai politics has absolutely nothing to do with us. If you cannot see that Thaksin was a thief, cheat and complete swindler, then you are blind.

That man has the morals of a street dog......

And as for stating that " the elite believe they are above any law." Unless you are reading from a different page from me, They are above the law.... So, if you like living in Thailand, get on with it..!

And a wee secret, Don't believe all your wife tell you..!

I am unsure from you post wherher you agree or not.

No worries about me listening to the wife, she is like most others and brainwashed to believe those more powerful or older. Worst part is they dont realise it but you would know that, or maybe not.

Thaksin being the only criminal and the focus of the military is just propaganda. They are all in it for themselves but Thaksin became a threat because he was too popular and the military realised if he stayed in power much longer they would have more problems ever removing him from office.

See how well propaganda works. Is your husband the same because surely you dont wear the pants in the family?

[Reigntax]

The military were politically active well before Thaksin did so. They blame him for the last 10 or more years, who do they blame for the previous 60 years? Thaksin also, because black magic told them he was coming?

The military are the biggest problem and they way they have imposed their views on the country has caused most of the problems present today and the attitude where the elite believe they are above any law.

QFT. I find it impossible to believe that reasonably educated people can look at the evidence and not see that. Junta apologists will constantly point to the Shinawatras as though somehow their level of corruption is worse than an unelected government siezing power and suppressing freedom of speech... But what about the previous 17 coups?

So what you really mean is that because other people have not been convicted for corruption then nobody should be convicted for corruption.

How you conclude that statement from this post only you will ever know but im sure it makes sense.. to you.

When was the last member of the military was investigated for corruption other than a particular extremely wealthy one whos relations had a falling out with some high fliers.

What government would take on corruption while facing the barrel of a gun?

If the military's job is to maintain sovereignty, why is it in such a bad state?

The answers are clear for anyone who can see past the rhetoric but that requires people to look at facts and form their own conclusion, not just agree with what they are told.

[billd766]

"The Shinawatras are tainted, and the more Thaksin attempts to attach his family name to "democracy", the more difficult it will be for Thailand to become a true democracy. Everyone wants to get back to democratic rule, but the mere mention of his name makes too many people cringe."

The sooner the PTP sever links with Thaksin the better for everyone. His family are now a liability and IMO the PTP will have more success at the next election without TS's next proxy.

Sadly it will be difficult for the PTP to sever the links with Thaksin as he OWNS the PTP lock, stock and 2 smoking barrels.

IMHO the UDD should set itself up as a political party independent from Thaksin and the TRT/PPP/PTP and whatever the next Thaksin party will be called.

Then they can honestly say that they are the party of the poor in Thailand.

Who knows, they might even win in an election in 20xx.

[billd766]

Thaksin advising his lieutenants to "play dead" means that Thailand's vicious cycle is sure to continue...

This reporter is so far off base he is clueless. The cycle will continue no matter what Thaksin says or does or even if he and his entire family were no longer on this earth. The problems will continue because the problems are far deeper than one family. The Bangkok elite or yellow shirts just use Thaksin as an excuse. If he were gone they would find something else to justify their taking over the country even though they are a minority.

You might like to remember that there are countless examples of rural poor and low income, red supporters etc., who have somehow become the village headman etc., and suddenly their behaviors change and they become the elite.

The head man in the village where my family live is elected, and easily removed at the next election, as there is always opposition - if the headman are upgrading it is with the knowledge and blessing of the other villagers, who perhaps await their turn, or appreciate the way the village is funded and run - a strange concept though this may be to some

AFAIR the Pu Yai Ban after being elected has until he is to to stay in the job. Once he is elected there is no 4 or 5 year term limit though he probably can be removed for corruption etc through the courts.

[billd766]

Bring Thaksin back and let the people have their own say. Thailand is not the general's, it belongs to the people.

And it certainly does not belong to Thaksin.

I agree that Thaksin should come back and complete his 2 year jail sentence and face the other 15 charges against him too.

However much you want him back unless he is guaranteed a 100% pardon for all his past and future crimes he will not return except in a box for a Thai funeral that will outshine almost any other funeral rites in Thailand in the last 50 years.

[elviajero]

"The Shinawatras are tainted, and the more Thaksin attempts to attach his family name to "democracy", the more difficult it will be for Thailand to become a true democracy. Everyone wants to get back to democratic rule, but the mere mention of his name makes too many people cringe."

The sooner the PTP sever links with Thaksin the better for everyone. His family are now a liability and IMO the PTP will have more success at the next election without TS's next proxy.

Sadly it will be difficult for the PTP to sever the links with Thaksin as he OWNS the PTP lock, stock and 2 smoking barrels.

IMHO the UDD should set itself up as a political party independent from Thaksin and the TRT/PPP/PTP and whatever the next Thaksin party will be called.

Then they can honestly say that they are the party of the poor in Thailand.

Who knows, they might even win in an election in 20xx.

You're right about TS's control over the party and that the UDD should form separate party, which they probably want to do. The TS parties support base hasn't changed much since 2005. How many of those are still loyal to him verses the UDD is anyones guess. IMO splitting the existing party in two would probably result in a hung parliament with the Dems possibly winning the most seats. Some interesting back room deals would follow and it's anyones guess how the resulting coalition would look. Whatever happens a split would not give UDD the control they no doubt want.

[Linzz]

The military were politically active well before Thaksin did so. They blame him for the last 10 or more years, who do they blame for the previous 60 years? Thaksin also, because black magic told them he was coming?

The military are the biggest problem and they way they have imposed their views on the country has caused most of the problems present today and the attitude where the elite believe they are above any law.

Reigntax ......How long have you been living here in Thailand.... you are a Farang... Thai politics has absolutely nothing to do with us. If you cannot see that Thaksin was a thief, cheat and complete swindler, then you are blind.

That man has the morals of a street dog......

And as for stating that " the elite believe they are above any law." Unless you are reading from a different page from me, They are above the law.... So, if you like living in Thailand, get on with it..!

And a wee secret, Don't believe all your wife tell you..!

Oh how original. Another guy beating his chest proclaiming "how long have you been in thailand" !!! Kind of fits the bullying profile of all military supporters.

Call Thaksin whatever you want. But being farang or not doesn't change the fact that he was the man and party that was chosen by the majority of thais to lead the country. And not just once.

Chosen by fair ballot or bribery? My wife was given money to vote for him but she didn't.