Enormous Shakeup Of Visa And Immigration Rules

[LoveDaBlues]

I think the problem is at many embassies they will not issue the letter if one does NOT have a pension - as anything else is less certain. So I agree; emmigration don't care whether pension or other income - but hard to prove other income. Cheers!

The US Embassy will NOTORIZE a document. Surely the other Embassies will do the same? For a person NOT having a pension he can create a statement of income (from whatever source) notorized by his Embassy. As the Thai Immigration don't seem to put much weight on this form anyway (in my opinion) they would most likely accept this.

To me it's pretty simple; Immigration wants to see the required money in the Thai bank and proof that it came from a foreign source.

Farangs have been playing 'move the money' (from account to account to account etc.) and Thai Immigration is tired of it so they are tightening things up.

I have posted this same response a number of times at various places in this forum regarding the retirement visa and a Thai bank account, so I am sorry if you have read it before.

I renewed my retirement visa in Chiang Mai for the 3rd time last month. I originally received my first one in the U.S. So I am now on my FOURTH visa.

I have NEVER had a sum in the Thai Bank coming anywhere near the listed amounts. The requirements are EITHER/OR.......

For my first renewal I took proof of pension to the U.S. Emabassy, as stated in many posts above they were not too interested in the proof but gave me the affidavit attesting to my claimed income.

To say that Thai Immigration does not give much weight to this letter is LUDICROUS! That is the ONLY thing they have checked for my income requirements in the past three renewals. Thai Immigration told me the first time I applied that I could just copy that letter for each subsequent renewal, that I did not need a new letter each year, and that is what I have done. Last month I had a meager 30,000 baht in my Thai Bank Account and although they do want a copy of the bank book I had absolutely no problems as my pension made up for the rest of the 800,000 baht.

I have seen so many OP talk about the REQUIRED money in a Thai Bank and this is absolutely false if you can show the other income to make up the difference.

My pension is "average" for an American and there is nothing else "outstanding" about my application that would lead me to beleive I am being treated any different than anyone else who meets the requirements. My last renewal (extension of stay) with a multiple entry permit took 2 hours to process.

You're right. I should have been more specific. In MY EXPERIENCE Thai Immigration at Nong Khai gives this letter little weight. Perhaps at Chiang Mai they (or a particular officer) places great weight on this letter. As TiT we all need to remember that what's correct can vary greatly depending on location and the specific person dealt with.

I think my whole point has been missed. IMO.....from what I'm seeing/hearing......Immigration wants to move out those here on 'short money' and they are starting to tighten up the rules/checking concerning foreign money being brought in.

BTW; I've brought in 2.6 million baht (verifiable) in the past 11 months and was TURNED DOWN ORIGINALLY for my retirement visa. The reason? I didn't have the 800K baht in my account at the time of application and I didn't have a monthly history of transferring in 65K per month. Luckily, I applied to a different officer/location using the EXACT SAME PAPERWORK and was approved. The officer was sympathetic 'this time' but made it clear to me that next year they want to see the monthly history of xfers from my foreign bank account into my Thai bank account.

All one can do is relate his PERSONAL EXPERIENCES and if they differ from someone else's.......oh well...........TiT.......

silverhawk_usa - with all respect; based on my experiences I could say your post is ludicrous. You're comparing apples and oranges (Chiang Mai Imm. & Nong Khai Imm.). I will in the future try to remember to post which Immigration office my experiences relate to.

[Noel]

Excuse me once again, but I see NO EVIDENCE that immigration is now requiring the 800K to be in the bank account 3 months in advance for those retirees providing a document about their income source. Or did I get this wrong?

No, you did not get it wrong as far as I can glean.

If you look at Page 8 in Sunbelt's excellent document in the link above [ Paragraph 7.21 (5) refers], the evidence of income appears to be standalone.

It strikes me, rightly or wrongly, that the authorities are out to plug the loophole that allowed applicants relying on capital alone to transfer the 800k in and out.

I do however believe that initially they will not penalize those applying for repeat renewals, although next year may be a different story.

That said, I somehow doubt if your passbook shows that you have played within the 'spirit' of the rules there will not be a requirement to have the full amount there three months in advance.

The above is of course only my guess: we shall have to wait and see...

[wolfmanjack]

In case of the applicant who is married to a Thai wife, one of them or both of them need to have the total annual income that is averaged out not less than 40,000 Baht per month except for the case that the said foreign national has entered Thailand before this Order is enforced and the foreign national has been permitted to stay in the Kingdom by the result of having married to a Thai wife, then if the applicant does not have the said income, then, the latest 3 months records of the account book of any Bank in Thailand with the account name of either or both parties need to have the amount of money not less than 400,000 Baht.

So is that actually saying that now a forigener can be supported by his Thai wife if she can show 40,000 bhat a month income. If so any idea if they would let you change over even if you qualified for the 400,000 in the bank bit previously

Yes you can change over to income from your wife. They are quite clear on that point, it is allowed.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

I am on a business visa now. Do i have to leave the country to get a type "O" or can I just go to immigration and switch over ? How many months do you have to show the 40,000 before you apply ??

[barryofthailand]

Replying to GPage.

In order to get a retirement visa, you must begin with a Non-Immigrant "O" visa, obtained outside Thailand. When I got my RV, I got a 90 day Non-IMM O in Singapore. You might be able to get one in LA. Call the Thai embassy there and tell them what you want to do. 12 month Non_Imm O may also be an option.

http://www.thaivisa.com/318.0.html

(Some people have said they converted tourist visas into RV's but that is not what the rule states. Do it right the first time.

Once in Thailand, bring the money in from the US immediately. I use Bangkok Bank and have been very pleased with their service.

The new rules have not been clearly established. But if I was chasing my first RV, I'd bring more than B1,000,000 in and live off that money, leaving B800,000 after the 90 day period.

If you have the Non-Imm O, you do not have to leave Thailand again and can apply for the RV.

In fact, my Non-Imm O was single entry only.

Stay close to this board and listen only to those who clearly know what they're talking about. ( I am NOT one of them! Take what I have written with a grain of panic)

Listen to Lopburi3, Dr. Patpong, and Sunbelt Asia. The rules could always change and these 3 are closer to the regulations than anyone.

Forget the coup and come on over!

Twin

When I first moved to Thailand I had a tourist visa because in Los Angeles theirs only two ways to get a non o visa. First is to be married to a Thai with proof of mariage, and if you married in the states you must get your mariage certificate translated into Thai. The second is a retirement visa, and if you can p[rove to the Thai consulate in LA that you have a monthly income of 65,000 baht per month, or put the equivilant of 800,000 baht in a bank account in the states then they will issue you a non o visa. Once you get to Thailand you have 90 days to get the one year extension from the immigration dept. where you live.

In my case I got married after I arrived in Thailand to live permanantly, so I was able to change my tourist visa to a non o at the main immigration dept. in Bangkok third floor.

Barry

[wolfmanjack]

You don't get an automatic right to live in any country just because you are married to someone..

wrong.

In all civilized countries you get the right to stay in the country if you are (genuinely) married to one of its citizens, and thats is usually based on the constitution. You might wanna take a look there first.

I am an american citizen. My wife and the mother of our children, both or which are also American citizens, is thai. She does not have the right to stay in the USA even though she is married to an american and is the mother of 2 american citizens. The problem is the income requirement. We have to show 3 years tax records showing $US27,000 per year. i can not do this since i have only been making 35,000 baht per month here in thailand for the last 7 years.

[ray23]

Replying to GPage.

In order to get a retirement visa, you must begin with a Non-Immigrant "O" visa, obtained outside Thailand. When I got my RV, I got a 90 day Non-IMM O in Singapore. You might be able to get one in LA. Call the Thai embassy there and tell them what you want to do. 12 month Non_Imm O may also be an option.

http://www.thaivisa.com/318.0.html

(Some people have said they converted tourist visas into RV's but that is not what the rule states. Do it right the first time.

Once in Thailand, bring the money in from the US immediately. I use Bangkok Bank and have been very pleased with their service.

The new rules have not been clearly established. But if I was chasing my first RV, I'd bring more than B1,000,000 in and live off that money, leaving B800,000 after the 90 day period.

If you have the Non-Imm O, you do not have to leave Thailand again and can apply for the RV.

In fact, my Non-Imm O was single entry only.

Stay close to this board and listen only to those who clearly know what they're talking about. ( I am NOT one of them! Take what I have written with a grain of panic)

Listen to Lopburi3, Dr. Patpong, and Sunbelt Asia. The rules could always change and these 3 are closer to the regulations than anyone.

Forget the coup and come on over!

Twin

When I first moved to Thailand I had a tourist visa because in Los Angeles theirs only two ways to get a non o visa. First is to be married to a Thai with proof of mariage, and if you married in the states you must get your mariage certificate translated into Thai. The second is a retirement visa, and if you can p[rove to the Thai consulate in LA that you have a monthly income of 65,000 baht per month, or put the equivilant of 800,000 baht in a bank account in the states then they will issue you a non o visa. Once you get to Thailand you have 90 days to get the one year extension from the immigration dept. where you live.

In my case I got married after I arrived in Thailand to live permanantly, so I was able to change my tourist visa to a non o at the main immigration dept. in Bangkok third floor.

Barry

Ran into the same thing in L.A. when I came here yet I know two people nopw who have gotten a non O without eithre requiremen go figure. Some things must not be any diffferent there.

[Maestro]

I am on a business visa now. Do i have to leave the country to get a type "O" or can I just go to immigration and switch over ? How many months do you have to show the 40,000 before you apply ??

If things are the same as last week, you do not have to travel abroad to get a new visa. You submit a new application for extension of stay, this time indicating as reason for extension “to support Thai wife”.

If you have your salary slips and a record of tax payment on your salary, you do not need to wait. Apply immediately and show your salary slips for the past few months. I believe I saw a specific period mentioned but cannot recall if it was three or six months. If the employment is new, I figure that a copy of the employment contract or confirmation letter of the employer will suffice.

---------------

Maestro

[Naam]

" So I agree; emmigration don't care whether pension or other income - but hard to prove other income."

why hard to prove? your bank can issue (if need be even notarized, certified and what not) a document which states your income.

[dereklev]

I phoned Suan Plu today about extending my "Marriage Visa" the officer I spoke to just kept repeating same as last year to each question I asked.

When I asked does the money have to be in the account 3 months in advance and remain untouched until the extension is granted he just repeated for you the same as last year!!

Now I am even more confused!!

The Immigration officer on the phone is "low-level" was the answer I got today, when I asked in person, "why some people were getting conflicting information on visas."

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Sunbelt are you saying that the 400k has to be in the bank 3 months before I apply for my next extension and remain untouched until the extension is granted??

Also can I use my overseas income, far in excess of 40k, and not bother about the 400k??

I will be applying for my 4th extension next March.

[Sunbelt Asia]

Sunbelt are you saying that the 400k has to be in the bank 3 months before I apply for my next extension and remain untouched until the extension is granted??

7.17 (6) states The latest 3 months records of the account book of any Bank in Thailand with the account name of either or both parties need to have the amount of money not less than 400,000 Baht. .... This is only for foreigners that now are applying for the renewal or just started the process of the extension before Oct 1st 2006. They are exempt from the income requirement.

Also can I use my overseas income, far in excess of 40k, and not bother about the 400k??

Yes but in case the officer feels different, keep 400K handy to be on the safe side but do not disclose it unless you have to. The law states you have the option as you are going for the renewal.

Excuse me once again, but I see NO EVIDENCE that immigration is now requiring the 800K to be in the bank account 3 months in advance for those retirees providing a document about their income source. Or did I get this wrong?

Correct.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[KhunDennis]

I went to Chiang Mai this morning to get my fourth renewal on a retirement visa. I had all the paper work in apple pie order as allways, with over a million and a half Baht in the bank. They refused it because they no longer accept a joint bank account , with my wife of fourteen years. Now I am forced to play thier bullshit games, with the bank books, which really pisses me off!!!!!!!

[Sunbelt Asia]

As one poster said, the new marriage visa laws work in his favor because his wife supports him. So, am I correct in thinking that...

if a foreign man is legally married to a Thai woman who makes over 40,000 baht per month, he does not have to work or declare any money or have money in the bank and can simply apply for a Non Immigrant O Visa by showing her income and tax slips??? Is it really that easy or is there a catch?

correct. It is that easy.

So all such a man like that has to do is get on a plane to Penang, apply for a Non Immigrant O Visa with the required papers and basically declare that he is getting supported by her?

No need to get on the plane. Just apply at Immigration. The paperwork is the same as if you as the foreigner was the breadwinner.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[dereklev]

I phoned Suan Plu today about extending my "Marriage Visa" the officer I spoke to just kept repeating same as last year to each question I asked.

When I asked does the money have to be in the account 3 months in advance and remain untouched until the extension is granted he just repeated for you the same as last year!!

Now I am even more confused!!

There is no change for you because you already are in the 400k system and will remain able to use it. Only those making first application are likely to be hit with the 40k income requirement. The 3 month may well be something they tell you to do on your next renewal but believe it will only be closely checked for those who are suspect (no money until application and then gone).

Thanks lopburi, there is always a steady flow of money through the account but effectively tying up 400k for about 5 months would be a little painful.....

But I am still confused as Sunbelt seems to imply the money must be in the account for 3 months and remain untouched until the extension is granted! !

[amarka]

hello jap

surely it cannot be right if a westener earns less than 30,000bht a month - thats only 600euros or so....

if they earn so little and pay no tax or insurance what happens when they reach pension age.. who pays for them then?

it seems like a serious problem to me and better for them and for thailand if they leave now and go and get a proper job and join in society again.

amarka

Sir,

I am repeating myself, but it pertains here. Thousands of foreigners (thousands!!!) are working legally, meaning with teaching license and work permit, for under 30K per month and paying taxes on that. Even for those dong a bit better and making 40K, it's hardly an amount of money to get all excited about.

It's a anomaly that sticks out like a sore thumb, and any discussion about minimum income/cash requirements for foreigners is distorted without somehow factoring in the reality of the 30K Engarishe Teacher. Are you suggesting that these people go home?

Aloha,

Rex

Also consider a retiree who is unable to work now or would never get a job back home due to his age and physical inabilities. Many living here manage very well on less than the 800K Baht per year. So how could they now go home, and if so to what ?? I for one could not afford to live back in the UK, way too expensive for my pension to cope with and one of the reasons I chose to retire here. I have worked hard and honestly all my life but lost most of my pension and equity on 2 divorces and moved here with enough money left to buy a property in Thailand and live on my 650K Baht a year pension with a small amount of capital left over. I am sure I am one of hundreds living here the same way who cannot just go back home and get a job. I have worked for over 40 years and now I feel have earned my retirement and choosing to do so here actually helps the Thai people a lot too creating jobs and improving the economy here.

Like many I decided honestly to settle in Thailand for my retirement rather than live in squalor and cold in the UK. I have never had a problem with the immigration people and show them my pension letter and my Thai bank account with enough but never a lot in it. They have always been helpful and never awkward or obstructive. Long may this continue. At least in less than 4 years my state pension steps in and I will not need the extra capital for my visa. If you are unlucky enough not to have sufficient capital to top up your pension then surely most have still got a UK/USA/Euro credit card they can use for an easy loan to give them sufficient funds. Okay I know the interest charge is verging on legal theft but it is a way round the problem if needed. Still think they should let you use your property here as proof of the needed additional capital as after all you then will not be having to outlay say 10K-15K Baht a month in rent for a start.

One word of advice I was given by a helpful Thai Immigration officer is to keep hold of the retirement visa and do not change to a marriage spouse visa even if you do get married. As someone said here what happens if your Thai wife leaves you and anyway the retirement visa is a lot easier to get and renew as well as safer for all the reasons mentioned.

Still think the Thai authorities have made a huge blunder as usual, this will cost Thailand dearly with lost potential wealth form investors and retirees who now are looking elsewhere. Why do they make such stupid ill thought out policies and ruin what should be an excellent country and place to live ? One sometimes wonders at the level of education the so called ruling class here have ever received as some of their actions are those of low IQ and/or grossly uneducated people who should not be in powerful positions or else they otherwise have ulterior motives like racism maybe !! Fingers crossed the new regime are well educated and have moral motives and thus will see the light .. sorry did I see a pig flying overhead !!

hello Rayw...

i think if you have and can declare 800k per year and you are over 50 then you can qualify for a retirement visa.... you should be ok

obviously life is cheaper here in thailand.... but it does not mean that the thai authorities want all the poor people from europe here - adding to the burden!

what the thai authorities are trying to do is to clean the visa system a bit and stop the abuse.

there are visa's for each type of applicant and a tourist visa is what is says it is and should not be used for any other purpose.

too many people are only trying to find loopholes in the system to abuse the system again...and again!

its a real shame because they make life harder for eveyone....

if people are working then they should get a work permt and the correct visa! and pay some taxes and insurance..never mind pension contributions.....

you should be ok though.... if you have the money to show the authorities.....i think 800k is a reasonable ammount and most U.K pension holders should be able to show this...they are then genuine cases and will be accepted...

amarka

[amarka]

I went to Chiang Mai this morning to get my fourth renewal on a retirement visa. I had all the paper work in apple pie order as allways, with over a million and a half Baht in the bank. They refused it because they no longer accept a joint bank account , with my wife of fourteen years. Now I am forced to play thier bullshit games, with the bank books, which really pisses me off!!!!!!!

hello kuhndennis...

i guess one million and a half divided by 2 is 750,000bht.... so not enough?

is that the way things are calculated now.... i guess all the money is really yours anyway...

sounds a bit silly to me....

amarka

[teacher]

I was talking to someone today here in Pattaya who has just applied for a retirement visa. He could not show three months previous records 800,000 bt being in the bank so they actually gave him a one month provisional visa. He must return back in 30 days where he must show his bank book, then again a month later. They have said to him that as long as 500,000 plus is still in his account then they will issue him with a futher 9 months retirment visa. Making up the full year!!!!!!

[silverhawk_usa]

I think the problem is at many embassies they will not issue the letter if one does NOT have a pension - as anything else is less certain. So I agree; emmigration don't care whether pension or other income - but hard to prove other income. Cheers!

The US Embassy will NOTORIZE a document. Surely the other Embassies will do the same? For a person NOT having a pension he can create a statement of income (from whatever source) notorized by his Embassy. As the Thai Immigration don't seem to put much weight on this form anyway (in my opinion) they would most likely accept this.

To me it's pretty simple; Immigration wants to see the required money in the Thai bank and proof that it came from a foreign source.

Farangs have been playing 'move the money' (from account to account to account etc.) and Thai Immigration is tired of it so they are tightening things up.

I have posted this same response a number of times at various places in this forum regarding the retirement visa and a Thai bank account, so I am sorry if you have read it before.

I renewed my retirement visa in Chiang Mai for the 3rd time last month. I originally received my first one in the U.S. So I am now on my FOURTH visa.

I have NEVER had a sum in the Thai Bank coming anywhere near the listed amounts. The requirements are EITHER/OR.......

For my first renewal I took proof of pension to the U.S. Emabassy, as stated in many posts above they were not too interested in the proof but gave me the affidavit attesting to my claimed income.

To say that Thai Immigration does not give much weight to this letter is LUDICROUS! That is the ONLY thing they have checked for my income requirements in the past three renewals. Thai Immigration told me the first time I applied that I could just copy that letter for each subsequent renewal, that I did not need a new letter each year, and that is what I have done. Last month I had a meager 30,000 baht in my Thai Bank Account and although they do want a copy of the bank book I had absolutely no problems as my pension made up for the rest of the 800,000 baht.

I have seen so many OP talk about the REQUIRED money in a Thai Bank and this is absolutely false if you can show the other income to make up the difference.

My pension is "average" for an American and there is nothing else "outstanding" about my application that would lead me to beleive I am being treated any different than anyone else who meets the requirements. My last renewal (extension of stay) with a multiple entry permit took 2 hours to process.

You're right. I should have been more specific. In MY EXPERIENCE Thai Immigration at Nong Khai gives this letter little weight. Perhaps at Chiang Mai they (or a particular officer) places great weight on this letter. As TiT we all need to remember that what's correct can vary greatly depending on location and the specific person dealt with.

I think my whole point has been missed. IMO.....from what I'm seeing/hearing......Immigration wants to move out those here on 'short money' and they are starting to tighten up the rules/checking concerning foreign money being brought in.

BTW; I've brought in 2.6 million baht (verifiable) in the past 11 months and was TURNED DOWN ORIGINALLY for my retirement visa. The reason? I didn't have the 800K baht in my account at the time of application and I didn't have a monthly history of transferring in 65K per month. Luckily, I applied to a different officer/location using the EXACT SAME PAPERWORK and was approved. The officer was sympathetic 'this time' but made it clear to me that next year they want to see the monthly history of xfers from my foreign bank account into my Thai bank account.

All one can do is relate his PERSONAL EXPERIENCES and if they differ from someone else's.......oh well...........TiT.......

silverhawk_usa - with all respect; based on my experiences I could say your post is ludicrous. You're comparing apples and oranges (Chiang Mai Imm. & Nong Khai Imm.). I will in the future try to remember to post which Immigration office my experiences relate to.

Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers "Love Da Blues", perhaps ludicrous was too strong a word, but it was you painting with the broad brush refering to Immigration in general, therefore I also related my PERSONAL EXPERIENCES specifically in Chiang Mai. The head person and staff have changed over the years at Chiang Mai but they seem to be consistant in how they interpret the law.

It seems to me they are specific that they are looking for a verifiable REGULAR income equalling 65,000 bt a month. I could see where a large sum brought in MAY not meet that requirement. If that sum is subsequently spent, what guarantee is there that one can get more?

MY main point was that it seems it gets posted many times that one must meet the criteria of money in a Thai bank as the deciding factor in a retirement visa. That is not the case, IF you meet the other criteria the bank account can become almost a mute point, IN MY EXPERIENCE.

[amarka]

I think the problem is at many embassies they will not issue the letter if one does NOT have a pension - as anything else is less certain. So I agree; emmigration don't care whether pension or other income - but hard to prove other income. Cheers!

The US Embassy will NOTORIZE a document. Surely the other Embassies will do the same? For a person NOT having a pension he can create a statement of income (from whatever source) notorized by his Embassy. As the Thai Immigration don't seem to put much weight on this form anyway (in my opinion) they would most likely accept this.

To me it's pretty simple; Immigration wants to see the required money in the Thai bank and proof that it came from a foreign source.

Farangs have been playing 'move the money' (from account to account to account etc.) and Thai Immigration is tired of it so they are tightening things up.

I have posted this same response a number of times at various places in this forum regarding the retirement visa and a Thai bank account, so I am sorry if you have read it before.

I renewed my retirement visa in Chiang Mai for the 3rd time last month. I originally received my first one in the U.S. So I am now on my FOURTH visa.

I have NEVER had a sum in the Thai Bank coming anywhere near the listed amounts. The requirements are EITHER/OR.......

For my first renewal I took proof of pension to the U.S. Emabassy, as stated in many posts above they were not too interested in the proof but gave me the affidavit attesting to my claimed income.

To say that Thai Immigration does not give much weight to this letter is LUDICROUS! That is the ONLY thing they have checked for my income requirements in the past three renewals. Thai Immigration told me the first time I applied that I could just copy that letter for each subsequent renewal, that I did not need a new letter each year, and that is what I have done. Last month I had a meager 30,000 baht in my Thai Bank Account and although they do want a copy of the bank book I had absolutely no problems as my pension made up for the rest of the 800,000 baht.

I have seen so many OP talk about the REQUIRED money in a Thai Bank and this is absolutely false if you can show the other income to make up the difference.

My pension is "average" for an American and there is nothing else "outstanding" about my application that would lead me to beleive I am being treated any different than anyone else who meets the requirements. My last renewal (extension of stay) with a multiple entry permit took 2 hours to process.

You're right. I should have been more specific. In MY EXPERIENCE Thai Immigration at Nong Khai gives this letter little weight. Perhaps at Chiang Mai they (or a particular officer) places great weight on this letter. As TiT we all need to remember that what's correct can vary greatly depending on location and the specific person dealt with.

I think my whole point has been missed. IMO.....from what I'm seeing/hearing......Immigration wants to move out those here on 'short money' and they are starting to tighten up the rules/checking concerning foreign money being brought in.

BTW; I've brought in 2.6 million baht (verifiable) in the past 11 months and was TURNED DOWN ORIGINALLY for my retirement visa. The reason? I didn't have the 800K baht in my account at the time of application and I didn't have a monthly history of transferring in 65K per month. Luckily, I applied to a different officer/location using the EXACT SAME PAPERWORK and was approved. The officer was sympathetic 'this time' but made it clear to me that next year they want to see the monthly history of xfers from my foreign bank account into my Thai bank account.

All one can do is relate his PERSONAL EXPERIENCES and if they differ from someone else's.......oh well...........TiT.......

silverhawk_usa - with all respect; based on my experiences I could say your post is ludicrous. You're comparing apples and oranges (Chiang Mai Imm. & Nong Khai Imm.). I will in the future try to remember to post which Immigration office my experiences relate to.

Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers "Love Da Blues", perhaps ludicrous was too strong a word, but it was you painting with the broad brush refering to Immigration in general, therefore I also related my PERSONAL EXPERIENCES specifically in Chiang Mai. The head person and staff have changed over the years at Chiang Mai but they seem to be consistant in how they interpret the law.

It seems to me they are specific that they are looking for a verifiable REGULAR income equalling 65,000 bt a month. I could see where a large sum brought in MAY not meet that requirement. If that sum is subsequently spent, what guarantee is there that one can get more?

MY main point was that it seems it gets posted many times that one must meet the criteria of money in a Thai bank as the deciding factor in a retirement visa. That is not the case, IF you meet the other criteria the bank account can become almost a mute point, IN MY EXPERIENCE.

hi ..

so ..... no problem getting a visa if you meet the retirement requirements..... 65k a month or 800k in the bank....

i am wondering.... does anyone who has a real job and proper paperwork have a problem ???

or are all the problems beause of visa abuse..... i.e tourists working or staying without making any declarations.....

sorry.. but i am beggining to think the thai authorities have got this one right.....and they just want to sort out the genuine applicants from the false......sure there will be some exceptions... there always are!

talk about a crash in the property market because of illigal stayers being asked to leave is rather silly in my view...

amarka

[Independent]

Enormous shakeup of visa and immigration rules

Most farangs will be affected

What began as a restriction on the number of 30 day visas on arrival has turned out to be a major reshuffling of immigration regulations, most of which were framed as far back as 1979. The new rules apply to short term and long term tourists and farang residents and cover yearly extensions of various types, investment visas and even work permits.

The fact that it was announced on September 24 that the national immigration bureau chief lieutenant general Suwit Thamrongsrisakul has been transferred to an inactive post is not thought to have any bearing on visa matters. None the less, Pattaya Today stresses that the changes described below were accurate as of September 26, when we went to press, with an anticipated implementation date of October 1.

“Living” in Thailand on 30 day visas.

As previously announced, it will no longer be possible to “live” in Thailand simply by travelling to the border of a neighbouring country and receiving indefinitely the 30 day visa on arrival.

In future, foreigners will only be able to “live” in Thailand on visas on arrival only for up to 90 days (three months) in any 180 (six months) day period. Effectively, this means three consecutive runs to the border post (30+30+30) are the limit. The most commonly used border posts for Pattaya based visa runners are Aranyaprathet, Pong Nam Ron and Pailin in Cambodia.

Foreigners wishing to go on “living” in Thailand for the next three months would need to obtain a prior tourist visa at a Thai consulate or embassy in another country – not at a border post. The most likely destination for the budget traveller is Penang where the Thai consul general is currently awarding single entry tourist visas. These used to be valid for a stay of up to 60 days but from October 1 they are valid for a stay of 90 days. They cannot be extended.

The presumption is that, after that 90 days has elapsed using the Penang visa, foreigners would then be free to take visa runs to the Cambodian border for a further three months (30+30+30) before needing to return again to Penang or wherever

Foreigners travelling to Penang are advised to go and return by air. Some travellers have experienced difficulties on the Thai side of the Malaysian border when trying to return by train, even with a new visa.

The immigration bureau has confirmed that there is no limit to the number of 30 day visas on arrival for an individual, provided that he or she is “living” not in Thailand for longer than 90 days in any block of 180 days.

The logic behind the new rules about visas on arrival is to discourage their use as a kind of cheap residence permit.

Extensions to 30 day visas.

In an important new ruling, the former 15 day extension of a 30 day visa on arrival at Thai immigration offices has been changed to 7 days only. You may also have a 7 days stamp placed in your passport if the immigration authority refuses your application for a retirement or married man’s visa or if you are deemed to have made too many visa runs to the Cambodian border. If you get such a stamp, you must quit Thailand within one week or risk arrest for overstay.

Abolition of investment visa.

This visa allowed foreigners to reside in Thai for a year provided they placed 3 million baht in a Thai bank or in bonds. It was often used by foreigners under 50 who did not yet qualify in age for a retirement visa but wished to be based in Thailand. The understanding is that existing applications and renewals will be accepted, but that no new applications can be made from the beginning of October 2006.

The so called retirement visa.

This allows foreigners aged 50 and over to extend a non-immigrant visa for up to 12 months from the date of the last entry into Thailand. It requires either 800,000 baht in a Thai bank or a combination of cash in the bank and proof of pension paid in the home country. A letter from the respective embassy is required for proof of pension. From now on, the immigration officer will need to see proof that the 800,000 baht has been there for three months prior to the visa being issued. This is to stop the practice of moving money into a bank account, and promptly out again, once the visa is granted.

The old regulation, however, that you must produce an annual medical certificate for this visa has been withdrawn.

The so called married man’s visa.

This allows the foreign, legal spouse of a Thai national to extend a non-immigrant visa for up to 12 months from the date of the last entry into Thailand. The minimum cash in a Thai bank is 400,000 baht. As with the retirement variant, checks will be made in future to ensure that the cash is not simply put in a bank and then removed. This visa is issued in Bangkok only and, during the waiting period, checks can be made by immigration police at your bank to see if there has been a big cash withdrawal! If the funds have disappeared, you may be ordered to leave Thailand in 7 days. Local immigration officers will also visit your home to verify that you really do live together as man and wife.

Work permit regulations.

We are advised that work permits with the term “Consultant” in the title will not be accepted in future. It is felt the term is too vague and potentially condones work related activity contrary to the alien labour act. Obviously, work permit holders need to consult their lawyers about the detail.

Those applying for work permits for the first time will first require a non-immigrant business (type “B”) visa from a Thai consulate or embassy abroad. This will only be granted if the applicant has a Wp3 work permit receipt form from the Labour Office, photocopy of all limited company registration papers, all official paperwork showing company stamp, invitation letter from the limited company advising on your potential role and stating salary, photocopy of your passport, two passport size photos.

Multiple entry visas.

Many Thai consulates in the Pacific rim, specifically Penang, have now issued statements that they will issue only single entry visas in future. This ruling is irrespective of type. However, if foreigners choose to return to the country of their passport (say Europe, USA, Australia) they may find that multiple entry visas, both tourist and non-immigrant, are still being awarded. The reasoning seems to be that if you need a double, triple or multiple entry visa, then go back to your own country.

-- Pattaya Today 2006-10-02

[rayw]

hello jap

surely it cannot be right if a westener earns less than 30,000bht a month - thats only 600euros or so....

if they earn so little and pay no tax or insurance what happens when they reach pension age.. who pays for them then?

it seems like a serious problem to me and better for them and for thailand if they leave now and go and get a proper job and join in society again.

amarka

Sir,

I am repeating myself, but it pertains here. Thousands of foreigners (thousands!!!) are working legally, meaning with teaching license and work permit, for under 30K per month and paying taxes on that. Even for those dong a bit better and making 40K, it's hardly an amount of money to get all excited about.

It's a anomaly that sticks out like a sore thumb, and any discussion about minimum income/cash requirements for foreigners is distorted without somehow factoring in the reality of the 30K Engarishe Teacher. Are you suggesting that these people go home?

Aloha,

Rex

Also consider a retiree who is unable to work now or would never get a job back home due to his age and physical inabilities. Many living here manage very well on less than the 800K Baht per year. So how could they now go home, and if so to what ?? I for one could not afford to live back in the UK, way too expensive for my pension to cope with and one of the reasons I chose to retire here. I have worked hard and honestly all my life but lost most of my pension and equity on 2 divorces and moved here with enough money left to buy a property in Thailand and live on my 650K Baht a year pension with a small amount of capital left over. I am sure I am one of hundreds living here the same way who cannot just go back home and get a job. I have worked for over 40 years and now I feel have earned my retirement and choosing to do so here actually helps the Thai people a lot too creating jobs and improving the economy here.

Like many I decided honestly to settle in Thailand for my retirement rather than live in squalor and cold in the UK. I have never had a problem with the immigration people and show them my pension letter and my Thai bank account with enough but never a lot in it. They have always been helpful and never awkward or obstructive. Long may this continue. At least in less than 4 years my state pension steps in and I will not need the extra capital for my visa. If you are unlucky enough not to have sufficient capital to top up your pension then surely most have still got a UK/USA/Euro credit card they can use for an easy loan to give them sufficient funds. Okay I know the interest charge is verging on legal theft but it is a way round the problem if needed. Still think they should let you use your property here as proof of the needed additional capital as after all you then will not be having to outlay say 10K-15K Baht a month in rent for a start.

One word of advice I was given by a helpful Thai Immigration officer is to keep hold of the retirement visa and do not change to a marriage spouse visa even if you do get married. As someone said here what happens if your Thai wife leaves you and anyway the retirement visa is a lot easier to get and renew as well as safer for all the reasons mentioned.

Still think the Thai authorities have made a huge blunder as usual, this will cost Thailand dearly with lost potential wealth form investors and retirees who now are looking elsewhere. Why do they make such stupid ill thought out policies and ruin what should be an excellent country and place to live ? One sometimes wonders at the level of education the so called ruling class here have ever received as some of their actions are those of low IQ and/or grossly uneducated people who should not be in powerful positions or else they otherwise have ulterior motives like racism maybe !! Fingers crossed the new regime are well educated and have moral motives and thus will see the light .. sorry did I see a pig flying overhead !!

hello Rayw...

i think if you have and can declare 800k per year and you are over 50 then you can qualify for a retirement visa.... you should be ok

obviously life is cheaper here in thailand.... but it does not mean that the thai authorities want all the poor people from europe here - adding to the burden!

what the thai authorities are trying to do is to clean the visa system a bit and stop the abuse.

there are visa's for each type of applicant and a tourist visa is what is says it is and should not be used for any other purpose.

too many people are only trying to find loopholes in the system to abuse the system again...and again!

its a real shame because they make life harder for eveyone....

if people are working then they should get a work permt and the correct visa! and pay some taxes and insurance..never mind pension contributions.....

you should be ok though.... if you have the money to show the authorities.....i think 800k is a reasonable ammount and most U.K pension holders should be able to show this...they are then genuine cases and will be accepted...

amarka

Thanks for your reply but I did not make clear that I have been living here for 3.5 years now on a retirement visa. My annual pension is currently about 650K per year and goes up each year being indexed linked. I am 61 and in 4 years get an extra roughly 300K per year state pension too so will be well over the figure by then unless they move the goal posts (probably not for existing reitrees already here). I was saying that many Europeans come here to live amongst many other reasons because they can afford to live nicely in Thailand or Malaysia etc and not be poor, whereas with the high cost of living in many European countries they would definitely be poor living in Falangland. I used to earn good money before I retired a couple of years early after having a replacment knee operation from acute arthritis in the joint. So with my reasonable but modest pension and my capital from selling my share of a UK house I can meet the requirements okay. I have in fact brought a property here with a good part of my capital and feel that the authorities should take the value of that into account too like they do in Malaysia.

What I was saying is I believe you can still live very well here on much less than 800K Baht pa unless you are a big drinker, smoker and bar finer and good luck to those that enjoy and can afford such activities in excess. I accept their figure of 800K PA though as that is their perogative and seems not to be excessive. I also accept that they are trying to regularise the visas and stop people abusing the rules living here on tourist visas. BUT they would have been better ensuring anyone with sufficient funds and an honest clean criminal record should be able to get a long stay non-immigrant visa with little difficulty instead of them having to be a tourist visa runner. Would be good for the Thai economy too. The new rules hit many good honest folk hard just because they are under 50, or maybe work in neighboring countries and like to visit here for long weekends when they get some time off. I do feel for those honest folk that are seriously affected by these visa changes. VOA's should never have been uised to stay here permanently so I can understnd that hole being plugged, just need sensible and attainable alternatives put in place .

The comment about the US embassy letter confirming income I see in another post it has now been made clear that the US letter states that the applicant only DECLARED that he has income of XXXX. The UK letter from the Brit Embassy actually states that the applicant has "Provided evidence showing he/she receives an annual pension/income of xxxx gross or xxx per month" So this may explain why some folk get treated differently at the immigration office. If I was a Thai immigration officer I would not apply much weight to the US letter cinsidering the wording of it and therefore ask to see their money instead. With a UK Embassy letter or I believe from most other falang Embassies here, the confirmation of them having seen evidence would carry all the weight and proof that the regulations require. So you cant have it all ways. The US Embassy are therefore not being daft or dishonest at all as they are only stating truthfully the fact that the applicant has only declared their income and NOT proved it with sound evidence.

Sorry if this went off topic as it was not intended as a US knocking exercise at all, just to query the validity of embassy letters of income confirmation. However I want as a final comment to correct two points raised even though as stated off topic .. sorry for this Mr Moderator but could not leave it there.

1. The US system of justice is indeed good because it is primarily based on the very old establish UK system of innocent until proven guilty. In fact it is the British Justice system not the US one that is held in the highest regard internationally. The British justice system goes back a long way well before the USA was even on the map. Of course the US system is based on the British one as after all it was the Brits in the main who colonised much of the North Americas originally. In the history of the world and it's cultures indeed the USA are just figuratively out of diapers, but hey that is not necessarily a bad thing either though it can make them a little naive at times. I must sincerely add thoguh that they are mainly really good guys from the States and most of them good to know.

2. I do not think that all non US citizens were born with the WRONG passport as someone comment quite unnecessarily arrogantly I thought. I found this a little offensive to be honest. This is a common misconception by many US citizens that everyone wants to hold a US passport rather than ANY other. Not true at all by a long chalk. I am proud of my British one and my German friend is proud of his and my Australian friend loves his Ozzy one, and of course many of my yankee friends love theirs too etc etc. I personally would not swap my passport for a US one, no way and would not expect my Asutralian mates to want to swap for a Brit one either. So lets stop this silly ill conceived idea that only the US passport is worth owning. Sure it is great to be a yank, or to be a Brit or to be an Australian, German, French, Dutch, Canadian, Danish, Jap etc etc. I am proud to be British but also proud to be a citizen of the world too. As Carlos Santana said in Bangkok in 2003, " We represent the other face of America and we say 'God bless HUMANITY' "... nice thought

So that is enough said on this off topic discussion, it was only raised in respect to the implications of the various embassy income letters and getting or extending a retiement visa. We are all expat cousins together here trying to help each other sort out our visa extensions and how we can over come these new difficulties that affect many of the folk here.

Good luck to all

RayW

Edited October 4, 2006 by rayw

[luangtom]

"if she has an ID card and Tabien Baan she could apply for a Thai Passport in the US and use that to enter Thailand, then there is no need for a visa for her"

the U.S. does not allow dual citizenship as far as Thailand is concerned.

The US will not allow travel on the Thai passport without an entry-visa for the US. She is a

US-citizen and they will not issue a visa for re-entry for a US-citizen, as she has a US passport

to travel on. Their rules, not mine.

My original question was, "does she need a Thai-visa for extended-stay, or , does she automatically

get added to mine, with all of the same funds used for both of us?"

[sbk]

"if she has an ID card and Tabien Baan she could apply for a Thai Passport in the US and use that to enter Thailand, then there is no need for a visa for her"

the U.S. does not allow dual citizenship as far as Thailand is concerned.

The US will not allow travel on the Thai passport without an entry-visa for the US. She is a

US-citizen and they will not issue a visa for re-entry for a US-citizen, as she has a US passport

to travel on. Their rules, not mine.

My original question was, "does she need a Thai-visa for extended-stay, or , does she automatically

get added to mine, with all of the same funds used for both of us?"

No, she does not automatically get added to yours.

The US does allow dual citizenship, so your wife can get a Thai passport in the US and therefor she does not need a visa to stay in Thailand. She leaves the US on her US passport, enters Thailand on her Thai one, and vice versa.

[Axel]

At check-in always show both p/ports to the airline - staff as proof that no visa is reuqired.

They are used to this.

[wolfmanjack]

hello jap

surely it cannot be right if a westener earns less than 30,000bht a month - thats only 600euros or so....

if they earn so little and pay no tax or insurance what happens when they reach pension age.. who pays for them then?

it seems like a serious problem to me and better for them and for thailand if they leave now and go and get a proper job and join in society again.

amarka

Sir,

I am repeating myself, but it pertains here. Thousands of foreigners (thousands!!!) are working legally, meaning with teaching license and work permit, for under 30K per month and paying taxes on that. Even for those dong a bit better and making 40K, it's hardly an amount of money to get all excited about.

It's a anomaly that sticks out like a sore thumb, and any discussion about minimum income/cash requirements for foreigners is distorted without somehow factoring in the reality of the 30K Engarishe Teacher. Are you suggesting that these people go home?

Aloha,

Rex

hello Aloha,

yes i realise that thousands of foreigners are either illigal or earning very little.

the bar is being lifted in thailand and the thai authorities clearly do not want these people to stay in thailand and are going to make life difficult for them.

yes i would suggest that they go home and earn a decent wage and visit thailand on holidays if they want to..... and perhaps build up a decent pension and retire in thailand ?

i realise that a lot of these people are in a very sticky situation because they have commitments and family in thailand and will not want to leave...

but .......... what it the future for them? only 30,000bht a month a family to support? i feel very sorry for them and dont know how they do it.. and then when they actually retire what happens then - i assume they have no pension or at least not enough to qualify for a visa....

to me its just a big mess and staying in thailand on such a salary with such a future only makes it worse......

sorry guys - your time is up.....

do what is best for yourselves.........

amarka

Those of us that are working and making around 30,000 baht per month are making enough to live here. In my case my house is paid for and I do not have to pay rent. I have 2 pickup trucks 1 of which is only a year old and a motorcycle that is only 2 years old. I have fruit trees and a garden for vegetables. I am paying for social insurance which does include a pension. My wife owns land in the mountains and by time I retire i should be able to have apretty nice house built in the mountains with enough fruit trees, coffee plants etc to live. Also the pension from the thai gov should be enough to pay monthly expenses in the mountain. Also the sale of my home in chiang mai should allow me to do any extra curricular activities that i want. What is wrong with this scenario ?? The thai gov might not allow it by the time I retire.

[yuyi]

My dad always taught me that when you are a guest in another person's house, you ask permission before getting a beer out of the refridgerator. We, those of us living here are guests. I would encourage us to live quietly and peacefully. Let our "Jai rohn" tempers settle, and be pragmatic about the situation.

My 2 satang

Peace

Guests don't pay. You are closer to being a 'customer' in this country than a 'guest'.

Exactly, a guest would not have to pay, so it is only polite to ask before taking something out the fridge.

But how do you do it in a hotel, where you pay for the room and all services? Do you go down to the receiption every time you want to open the fridge to take out what you pay for anyway? I imagine them staring at you ....

And how about the in-laws. Does your son in law really have to ask you if he wants to take a beer out of the fridge he's paid for, in the house he's paid for, where he lives with your daughter whose cost of living he pays for, and your grandson (in whose production he was physically involved) whose cost of living and education he pays for, just because the house he paid for stands on your land, which you refuse to sell him so it is only in his wife's = your daughter's name, despite that the money to pay for it was from him.

I'm always amazed that some think that such an in-law is just a guest, and not a family member, not equal to the other family members.

Now my parents did teach me by example otherwise. They treat their children-in-law just like their own. They would feel offended if one of them asks if he can take something out of the fridge, even if they (the child-in-law) didn't pay for it.

[wolfmanjack]

I am on a business visa now. Do i have to leave the country to get a type "O" or can I just go to immigration and switch over ? How many months do you have to show the 40,000 before you apply ??

If things are the same as last week, you do not have to travel abroad to get a new visa. You submit a new application for extension of stay, this time indicating as reason for extension “to support Thai wife”.

If you have your salary slips and a record of tax payment on your salary, you do not need to wait. Apply immediately and show your salary slips for the past few months. I believe I saw a specific period mentioned but cannot recall if it was three or six months. If the employment is new, I figure that a copy of the employment contract or confirmation letter of the employer will suffice.

---------------

Maestro

I am now only making 35,000 baht per month and i still have a b visa that is good for 10 more months. I was wondering when I had to start paying taxes on 40,000 baht per month. Also I would rather have the visa on supporting my children since they are more likely to be around. I was informed that if I had a support of wife visa and my wife was killed in a motorcycle accident then my visa would no longer be valid. If my children get killed in a motorcycle accident I will no longer care about a visa.

[lopburi3]

If you have an extension for job and lose job the extension ends. If you have a wife extension and the marriage end the extension ends. But if you have other qualifications you can immediately change to that. You do not have to "prepare" for everything.

[BlackJack]

i wonder who's the number cruncher in all this

ie who decided that 800K PA or 65K PM is a nice amount for foreigners to live on

If we look at the basic Thai PM income of 5K then the foreigner is spending 13 times what the thai is spending - so what public servant worked this one out as, if you are retired here then you know local prices and so would not be spending 13 times what the thai spends.

Perhaps this is why for the married to a thai person you only need 400K PA as mrs thai knows where to shop better than farang does - how absurd -most foreigners are better hagglers than Thais

Plus most people retiring here would buy a retirement property - so no need to pay rent.

Therefore we now need to change the equation as the thai would pay approx 2K PM for rent leaving 3K - whereas the foreigner doesnt pay rent (but maintenance fee -)

So the foreigner is spending approx 21.6 times PM what the thai spends PM

God no wonder thais think weez rich. Oh here comes farang charge him more as he can afford it.

I certainly dont spend 65K per month and I am sending money to the in laws and paying for College schooling for 2 others

Perhaps the Thai IMmigration Authorities can check their figures as I certainly cant work them out

Bottom line if you own somewhere to live then you dont need to bring in 800K.

Is the next step in this big plan to front to Immigration every 90 days and show that you have spent your 195K (with receipts) = just kidding

I love Thailand until I have to do something

[Thaiquila]

i wonder who's the number cruncher in all this

ie who decided that 800K PA or 65K PM is a nice amount for foreigners to live on

If we look at the basic Thai PM income of 5K then the foreigner is spending 13 times what the thai is spending - so what public servant worked this one out as, if you are retired here then you know local prices and so would not be spending 13 times what the thai spends.

Perhaps this is why for the married to a thai person you only need 400K PA as mrs thai knows where to shop better than farang does - how absurd -most foreigners are better hagglers than Thais

Plus most people retiring here would buy a retirement property - so no need to pay rent.

Therefore we now need to change the equation as the thai would pay approx 2K PM for rent leaving 3K - whereas the foreigner doesn't pay rent (but maintenance fee -)

So the foreigner is spending approx 21.6 times PM what the thai spends PM

God no wonder thais think weez rich. Oh here comes farang charge him more as he can afford it.

I certainly dont spend 65K per month and I am sending money to the in laws and paying for College schooling for 2 others

Perhaps the Thai IMmigration Authorities can check their figures as I certainly cant work them out

Bottom line if you own somewhere to live then you dont need to bring in 800K.

Is the next step in this big plan to front to Immigration every 90 days and show that you have spent your 195K (with receipts) = just kidding

I love Thailand until I have to do something

I think you make an excellent point!

The government of Mexico has a totally different financial requirment for foreign retirees who OWN THEIR HOME versus those who don't. Also, buying a home (OK all we can securely buy are condos) is a sign of stability and commitment as well, and certainly eliminates the need to pay rent.

But looking for "logic" is a bit of an unreasonable demand, as many have learned.

[yuyi]

Legally speaking when arrested for a crime in the US, you are neither innocent nor guilty, you are a 'suspect'. You are not presumed innocent, otherwise there would be no authority to arrest. You aren't innocent until the case is closed and verdict of 'not guilty' is entered into the record. Same as in most countries.

You often hear Americans contrast their legal system with the 'Napoleonic Code' (early legal basis for French law and passed on to most Latin American countries today) in a manner that suggests Napoleonic law presumed guilt, but that's another myth. Even under period-perfect Napoleonic Code, the legal structure did not encode a de jure presumption of guilt, e.g., the juror's oath explicitly recommended that the jury not betray the interests of the defendants, and there was much attention paid to the means of defense.

Just another couple of great American myths.

You have ever been in Napoleon's country?

There the judges themselves did rally in the streets not so long ago to protest against the enforcing of the "presumption of innocence", with the main argument that it would be too much work for them, it would be easier just to lock up any suspect, regardless of any proof, just based on the accusation.

No American myth needed, just reality in Napoleon's country, for centuries.