National Park Experience

[louse1953]

This is not unique to Thailand, many countries outside the Western world have this policy. India, Costa Rica, the list goes on. Don't see it as a Thai problem.

It is done to the tourists in Hawaii as well.

I find it hard to believe that a non native resident of Hawaii, one with a local issued state ID, is charged more based on their skin color and race.

No one really has a problem with residents v tourist prices for attractions. The problem is when the resident is defined by skin color alone (my Khmer ex who couldnt speak one word of Thai was routinely given the Thai price) not based on residency but based on race.

Depends whose on the gate.My Philapina friends were gunna get the Thai price until they opened their mouths.

[Beng]

They have no respect for the environment at the beach so I imagine it would be similar in the parks.

Your presumption is true.

The reason I don't visit Thai national parks anymore is not the entrance fee but my bleeding heart seeing how unawarely and disrespectfully most Thais use to treat their national heritages.

Rather like the American father who, while on vacation with his kids in Yellowstone National Park, carved his name into the wooden railing over one of the scenic vistas... Maybe the Austrian climbers who left their trash on a ledge while climbing in the Tyrol. Or the Chinese family who used a marking pen to write their names on a famous Shrine in Japan. Perhaps it's closer to the UK girls who entered the Chiang Mai temple wearing bikinis. Or maybe it was the French couple vacationing in the Maldives, and threw their empty plastic water bottles into the sea next to their bungalow. Could it be the German guy who decided that the ancient stone shrine he passed while trekking was really an outhouse? Or maybe it was .....

Fill in which ever nationality you'd like, then go and blame Thais for doing the same thing. Everybody is perfect except the Thais. Certainly YOUR countrymen would never behave like that...

I really wonder why some of you live here.You seem to dislike just about everything about Thailand and its people.

Well said. In you your last sentence I could not agree more. There is some really bitter miserable people living here. Wished the would go to the utopia they want to find. Mind you I think if they won lottery they would complain about the denomination of currency they were paid out in. Never ever happy. What a way to live life. See why the administration is try to be rid of us. They are fantastic ambassadors for foreigners (not).

I'm living here for 25 years and remember well when everyone paid the same at NP's. Then they charged Tourists more but let foreign residents with DL pay the normal fee. Now another change targeting foreigners living, working and retiring here. What' next ?

[louse1953]

This is not unique to Thailand, many countries outside the Western world have this policy. India, Costa Rica, the list goes on. Don't see it as a Thai problem.

It is done to the tourists in Hawaii as well.

I find it hard to believe that a non native resident of Hawaii, one with a local issued state ID, is charged more based on their skin color and race.

No one really has a problem with residents v tourist prices for attractions. The problem is when the resident is defined by skin color alone (my Khmer ex who couldnt speak one word of Thai was routinely given the Thai price) not based on residency but based on race.

The large majority of resident expats do NOT contribute to the upkeep nor maintenance of the parks. Why should we get to pay as little for entry as those who do?

Granted, the sign shouldn't read "Correct Skin Color Required," but with just a little bit of thought, we really do understand what is trying to be done here... unless one is really paranoid that the Thais are out to fleece foreigners. Personally, I don't think that's the case. If we want to play, we need to pay. Either though taxes or through higher entry fees.

[LivinLOS]

Which facts are in doubt..

For fiscal 2014 ended last Sept 30, VAT accounted for 41% of tax collected. .I am not supposed to link the source of that quote.. its easy to google.

I didn't ask for a newspaper quote. I asked for a citation. There really IS a difference, you know...

I just gave one.. Google the line I told you to and it comes up.. its not fault this forum bans links to the source material.

[louse1953]

Every expat pays tax through vat,which could range between 20-100k/year.This goes to general revenue\,which then part of may go to the NP budget.

[louse1953]

Another downside to the official two-tier price policy is that it sends a message to all Thais.

If the government does it, why can't we?

Exactly,perception becomes reality.

[joebrown]

Thought the Thai Driver License you pay same guess not TIT

I wonder if, instead of a Thai Driver's License, you had shown a Thai Work Permit? As a worker in Thailand, you pay Thai taxes. As a retired expat you don't. I can understand the desire to charge more to those who don't contribute to the upkeep of the park. When I had my business here in Chiang Mai, I would always bring my Work Permit booklet with me when we went to National Parks. Always paid the same rate as the Thais. Never any questions about it.

It's the same as a Resident Fishing License or Resident Hunting License being much less expensive than the Non-Resident ones, sometimes hundreds of dollars less. Or charging a higher tuition for classes in a state-run educational facility to someone from out of state. These are normal charges in most countries, but for some reason, folks here think that there is something unusual about them. If you help pay for the maintenance of the parks through taxes, you 'shouldn't' have to pay. If you do, then something is indeed wrong with the system. But just showing a Drivers License doesn't prove you are contributing to the system. It only means you live here.

Your final 2 sentences "But just showing a Drivers License doesn't prove you are contributing to the system. It only means you live here" is stated by you to infer that expats who live in Thailand don't pay taxes. Are you unaware of VAT and the taxes we pay on such purchases as Motor/Health Insurance, fuel etc. Even aliens departing Thailand are charged 700bht tax within the price of the air ticket! I think you forget that it's not just those who happen to be working in Thailand who are the only one's contributing to the country's tax coffers.

[LivinLOS]

Visit Phowiang Dinosaur Museum on Sunday. Foreign 60 baht, thai 20 baht. I showed my tax-payer card and asked how much tax they payed, just to show my anger. Result: I did not enter the museum. I will never enter any sights that charge double and triple price for foreigners. It is not at all about the money, it is all about the racism behind the scheme.

This policy is disrespectful to foreigners who live here in that they are being singled out for no just reason, but having said that, you still have to put it into context. Paying 60b to enter a park is a trivial amount, and probably represents good value for money, so spoiling a day out in that case would be a bit pointless, in my opinion.

So your principles are for sale then, its only a negotiation on how much they are worth at the time..

[brakar]

I have no problem with dual pricing. I want that Thai people also can afford to visit parks and temples. I'm pretty sure that if there was one price for all, the price will increase.

But I'm just a tourist visiting Thailand and other countries in S.E.A. 3 times each year and travel around approximately 4 weeks each time. The purpose is just to visit historic sites, parks and temples and I gladly pay what they demand.

Those of you who refuse to accept dual pricing, miss a lot of nice and interesting places.

If you visit Siem Reap in Cambodia, you will refrain from visiting Ankor Wat since farang have to pay $ 20 a day ($ 40 for 3 days pass) while people from Cambodia have free Access?

[Beng]

Another downside to the official two-tier price policy is that it sends a message to all Thais.

If the government does it, why can't we?

Exactly,perception becomes reality.

Yes, that is exactly what the Thais will think.

[LivinLOS]

Rather than constantly defend the idea of upkeep.. Why not look at how the money you pay gets managed..

http://www.thephuketnews.com/phi-phi-park-chief-moved-amid-b30mn-national-park-fee-fraud-probe-53786.php

“On May 17, one day prior to National Reform Council officials taking over operations at the park, the park entrance fees reported as collected was B80,360,” revealed Department of National Park ,Wildlife and Plant Conservation (DNP) Director Nipon Chotibal.

“But the next day, when NRC officials took over managing the accounts for the park (on May 18), the entry fees collected was recorded at B522,980.”

From May 18 to June 17, the NRC officials recorded a total of B8,069,190 collected as park entry fees at Phi Phi.

“That’s an average of B500,000 more per day, so about B30 million per month has not been accounted for,” Chief Nipon said.

But its a few resident forigners that are undermining the cost structure ??

[louse1953]

Having visited many National Parks in Thailand, I think you are using the wrong logic to justify pricing the parks the same for Thai and for foreigners. Thais should have the same right to visit the parks the same as foreigners, but if everyone paid the "Thai" price then there would not be enough money to maintain the parks and they would be rundown and not very desirable to foreigners anyway. The other side is if all Thai had to pay the "Farang" price, then most Thais could not afford to visit the park and they would become an "Elitist" enclave for only the wealthy (comparatively speaking). Dual pricing systems absolutely exist in the USA. I live in California and you can get discounts to many Attractions by having a local drivers license whereas you would have to pay full price if you don't and I do not see any difference between that and the pricing at Thai NPs.

I have a Thai fiancee and I have traveled to many national parks with her family paying the Thai price because we were all together and no Thai park ranger can out talk my fiancee or her sisters. So there are ways to work the system, but in general I just want to make sure the parks are well protected and cared for and the higher price should not be a burden for either the Thai or others to enjoy.

So you paid Thai price then,thanks to your future family of bullies.Thanks for your contribution to the park.

[rumbo1]

If I really want to go somewhere, I don't mind if it costs me 100 baht. I have been to parks where they didn't charge extra but I don't expect that to happen every time. If you don't want to pay, simply don't go to National Parks. One less tourist is no big deal as the parks are overcrowded during the holidays anyway.

Good idea , if you really want to go don't be tight , infact let's pay 5x more for beer , rent , food fuel etc if we really want to stay here , let's face it 1 less foreigner won't make any difference

[Chiengmaijoe]

Visit Phowiang Dinosaur Museum on Sunday. Foreign 60 baht, thai 20 baht. I showed my tax-payer card and asked how much tax they payed, just to show my anger. Result: I did not enter the museum. I will never enter any sights that charge double and triple price for foreigners. It is not at all about the money, it is all about the racism behind the scheme.

This policy is disrespectful to foreigners who live here in that they are being singled out for no just reason, but having said that, you still have to put it into context. Paying 60b to enter a park is a trivial amount, and probably represents good value for money, so spoiling a day out in that case would be a bit pointless, in my opinion.

So your principles are for sale then, its only a negotiation on how much they are worth at the time..

What an absurdly simplistic statement. If you would be happy standing on your principles outside a park whilst your family are inside enjoying a day out, good for you. I'd rather enjoy the time with my family than be a principled misery-guts for the sake of 40b. Watching my grandson enjoying seeing the dinosaurs would be priceless and certainly not worth missing for the sake of small change.

LivinLOS? What is that in your case, Land Of Scowls?

[louse1953]

The Thai dual pricing policy is still a HECK of a lot cheaper than you would pay in many other countries that also have dual pricing policies. Yet Farangs still complain. **sigh**

Some people refuse to understand it is not the price,it's the principle.I don't double park,i don't force other cars off the road because it's wrong,same as charging two entrance fees. It's just plain wrong,what ever country it happens in.

[louse1953]

Just a couple of simple points. Firstly I resent the suggestion that retired persons here pay no tax. I pay 15% on the interest on my bank deposits, part of which I am required to keep for immigration purposes.

Secondly. Just as a matter of window dressing, the Thai attitude would be easier to accept if it was presented as giving discounts. Hence local residents, monks, students, the elderly etc could be given favourable rates rather than simply stinging foreigners or persons with the wrong coloured skin.

You can get that 15% back you know,one of the few benefits for being old.

[Doc46]

This is a NO brainer,If you don't like the price ,,,,Don't pay and say thank you and go elsewhere,,,, works for me 100 %

[Mudcrab]

I went to Kho Sumed last week with my Thai family and friends. They paid 20 Baht to get into the NP which led to the beach and I had to pay 200 Baht! I gave the officer a mouthful about the discrimatory and racist policies that his department imposes on non-Thais, but also acknowledged that he was just following orders.My rels felt a little embarrassed and apologised to me for the discrimination. This was after paying 20 Baht "wharf tax" when we got off the ferry and 10 baht to use the toilet at the pier. I know the value of the fees is not much by western standards-it is the principle of double pricing that annoys me.

Perhaps you would feel better if you paid the difference for your Thai family and friends so that everyone paid the farang price.

No more double pricing to whine about then.

Problem solved.

[Fairynuff]

There are two categories of posters here. Those who can't/won't accept discrimination and overcharging and see it as wrong. Then there are those who choose to ignore those facts and see it as purely about the few baht.

For my part the money is totally irrelevant whether it's 2 baht or 2,000 baht,no difference. It's about right and wrong, no more no less. Discrimination is always wrong whatever the context and wherever it happens.

[Chiengmaijoe]

The Thai dual pricing policy is still a HECK of a lot cheaper than you would pay in many other countries that also have dual pricing policies. Yet Farangs still complain. **sigh**

Some people refuse to understand it is not the price,it's the principle.I don't double park,i don't force other cars off the road because it's wrong,same as charging two entrance fees. It's just plain wrong,what ever country it happens in.

Where did you get the idea that those who have a different opinion to you refuse to understand your argument? You'll be saying we don't have principles next, or that our principles are for sale (tick that one off, it's been used). Maybe some people see things different to you or just have different priorities and couldn't be bothered getting on a high-horse over things they don't care about too much, or ....... maybe they don't want to spend their life moaning and bitching and being unhappy. There is more than just black and white, right and wrong, good and bad in this world.

In my experience most people using the phrase 'It's not the price, it's the principle" are miserable, tight-fisted moaners and invariably the reverse is true - it is the price! I've never met a warm-hearted generous person that uses that expression.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Chiengmaijoe

[Chiengmaijoe]

There are two categories of posters here. Those who can't/won't accept discrimination and overcharging and see it as wrong. Then there are those who choose to ignore those facts and see it as purely about the few baht.

For my part the money is totally irrelevant whether it's 2 baht or 2,000 baht,no difference. It's about right and wrong, no more no less. Discrimination is always wrong whatever the context and wherever it happens.

Sure, life is black and white. Everything is right or wrong, people are all good or all bad, stupid or clever, nothing in-between.

There are lots of different categories of posters on here.

Open your eyes Fairy. 'Nuff said.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Chiengmaijoe

[Mudcrab]

This is not unique to Thailand, many countries outside the Western world have this policy. India, Costa Rica, the list goes on. Don't see it as a Thai problem.

Two tier pricing isn't confined to Thailand and it isn't a Thai problem at all.

For example To renew my passport in Bangkok the Australian Government is going to sting me 200 dollars more than it would cost to have it renewed in Australia. If they decide I am a non resident Australian taxpayer I lose a tax rebate of $6000 p.a.I have to pay to visit Ularu National Park in central Australia, the traditional people don't - I too feel discriminated against-This puts the couple of bucks extra I have to pay here occasionally in perspective.

In any case many of these shrines and places of interest have been maintained by the Thai people for many years and hold special significance for them. Keeping the price low for Thais and stinging the foreign visitor seems like a good idea to me. In fact it might deter the foreigners who disrespect places the Thais treated with reverence such as the Temple of the Emerald Buddha or at least help offset the costs of providing shawls and wraps for the western women who choose to visit the wat half naked.

However the self righteous ex patriots seem to see two tiered pricing as a violation of their human rights. In the context of the treatment of Afro Americans, Australian Aborigines Jews and the Irish it is trivial. My advice is not to go to these places if you aren't prepared to pay the entrance fee- no one forces you to.

I had to have a permit issued by the local aboriginal administration to allow to to enter,live and go to the town beach. Some beaches were totally off limits.

I had to apply for another if i actually wanted to drive out of town.

The road could be closed at a moments notice by the local clan chief.Too bad if you had planned on going on holidays. It's rather curious to live in a reverse apartheid situation.

Sate sanctioned racial discrimination, alive and well in Australia.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Mudcrab

[Mudcrab]

Dual pricing in National Parks thread....it must be Wednesday.

[farangmick]

Thought the Thai Driver License you pay same guess not TIT

I wonder if, instead of a Thai Driver's License, you had shown a Thai Work Permit? As a worker in Thailand, you pay Thai taxes. As a retired expat you don't. I can understand the desire to charge more to those who don't contribute to the upkeep of the park. When I had my business here in Chiang Mai, I would always bring my Work Permit booklet with me when we went to National Parks. Always paid the same rate as the Thais. Never any questions about it.

It's the same as a Resident Fishing License or Resident Hunting License being much less expensive than the Non-Resident ones, sometimes hundreds of dollars less. Or charging a higher tuition for classes in a state-run educational facility to someone from out of state. These are normal charges in most countries, but for some reason, folks here think that there is something unusual about them. If you help pay for the maintenance of the parks through taxes, you 'shouldn't' have to pay. If you do, then something is indeed wrong with the system. But just showing a Drivers License doesn't prove you are contributing to the system. It only means you live here.

We obviously see this from a residents point of view. But for a country desperately trying to increase tourist numbers, blatantly trying to screw them doesn't seem to make much sense. The scams will always be there, but tuk tuk drivers don't drive round with a sign saying "very special high price for farang tourists".

[FolkGuitar]

I think we should realize that anyone who wants to get upset about the pricing policy has the RIGHT to be upset!

And anyone who wants to become angry about the pricing policy has the RIGHT to be angry!

And similarly, anyone who wishes to take exception over the various problems has the RIGHT to take exception!

But it's also good to realize that the the Thais have the RIGHT not to give a damn about what you feel. If you don't like it, leave. It's their country.

Go back to the place where everything was so perfect for you, but for some reason, you couldn't wait to leave. Please don't change it for the rest of us. We like it here.

[Rimmer]

A post has been removed:

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

[Fairynuff]

There are two categories of posters here. Those who can't/won't accept discrimination and overcharging and see it as wrong. Then there are those who choose to ignore those facts and see it as purely about the few baht.

For my part the money is totally irrelevant whether it's 2 baht or 2,000 baht,no difference. It's about right and wrong, no more no less. Discrimination is always wrong whatever the context and wherever it happens.

Sure, life is black and white. Everything is right or wrong, people are all good or all bad, stupid or clever, nothing in-between.

There are lots of different categories of posters on here.

Open your eyes Fairy. 'Nuff said.

My eyes are wide open and yet I still can't see how your response is any way relevant to my post. I'm sure you know what you mean but all I see is an attempt to snipe at me. Whatever....

[losername]

Just a couple of simple points. Firstly I resent the suggestion that retired persons here pay no tax. I pay 15% on the interest on my bank deposits, part of which I am required to keep for immigration purposes.

Secondly. Just as a matter of window dressing, the Thai attitude would be easier to accept if it was presented as giving discounts. Hence local residents, monks, students, the elderly etc could be given favourable rates rather than simply stinging foreigners or persons with the wrong coloured skin.

You can get that 15% back you know,one of the few benefits for being old.

I did not know. Thank you. I thought it was either pay here or in UK.

[nemrut]

Why should foreigners in Thailand - mostly farang with 2-3x purchasing power of local population be allowed to pay the same price as Thais?

The locals are likely spending 1/3rd of a day's wages to bring their family to the park, and as a farang who can easily afford the higher entrance fee, why would you expect to pay the same price as them?

If everyone paid the same price, Thais and foreigners alike, the prices would inevitably increase faster than the local consumer could afford.

[luk AJ]

This is not unique to Thailand, many countries outside the Western world have this policy. India, Costa Rica, the list goes on. Don't see it as a Thai problem.

Yes but other countries use ID car and not race to charge the dual price.

Any Asian-Canadian or Asian-American that go in with a group of Thai will be charged the Thai price. !

Any Chinese inside a group of Thai in a car ....Thai price.

They just look in the car and see Asian face and that the only proof of Thai citizenship they need at the Park entrance.

As long as they use race to implement the dual pricing ...Visitor should keep complaining about it !

Is it true that Chinese and other asian people pay the Thai price?? Can somebody confirm? If so, it's indeed racism. To all the people on this forum who don't care that Foreigners pay xx times the Thai price I wanted to ask how they would react if tomorrow all highway tolls would be increased xxx times only for foreigners? Same same but different?