Liquorice Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Obviously a New Zealander practicing the 'haka dance' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KamalaRider Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 NancyL: "...and did his little performance for the camera." He surely did not know or expect that he was being filmed; who would? Unless you are Russian. ----------------------------------- Anyway, come on! Are you telling me that you haven't done the same thing, more or less? You've never flipped someone off in a car? You've never gotten out and told someone to fornicate off? Or both? This is probably slightly ill-advised in SE Asia because the guy in the car might not only have a dashcam, but also a loaded pistol. Not everyone reacts with temper, some of us have resigned and don't react much anymore to st...d a.. h... in traffic. *I think I have started to become one myself, an a.. h... in traffic*, my wife have started threaten me to not go with me anymore, I don't know if it's a punishment though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anto Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Anyone here admit to knowing him ? I do know that stretch of road very well as i live a little bit further on . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywais Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Remember undertaking is not permitted anywhere and in most other countries the law is adhered to. Not correct. From the Land Traffic Act B.E. 2522 Section 45 (400-1000B) No driver shall overtake another vehicle from the left-side unless: a. the vehicle to be overtaken is making a right turn or has given a signal that he is going to make a right turn. b. the roadway is arranged with two or more traffic lanes in the same direction. Since when does it need to be two lanes or people using right turn signal? I don't get it, is it there any law/traffic rule about it? For those who are interested - Land Traffic Act.pdf My reply was to a misinformed post. Enforcement is a whole different matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Muton Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 A lot of you seem to be assuming that the Thai driver with the dashcam is a man. This is not the case according to my wife, who read the original, Thai post. This IMO makes the clown not only an uncouth idiot but a cowardly uncouth idiotic bully. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESmith Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 A lot of you seem to be assuming that the Thai driver with the dashcam is a man. This is not the case according to my wife, who read the original, Thai post. This IMO makes the clown not only an uncouth idiot but a cowardly uncouth idiotic bully. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Cowardly? I wouldn't want to get a Thai woman p!$$ed off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cesarm001 Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 This are the type of people that should never come to Thailand they should be on there own countries no respect they still think they can do what they want and insult us. Is not just a gesture is an insult and I will kick his back side very quickly no worries then maybe understand ..... but maybe not .... must be one of those left overs from there own countries .... PO mate go home not here. We do not need people like that. Just a guy that love and respect this country with all their faults ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESmith Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 This are the type of people that should never come to Thailand they should be on there own countries no respect they still think they can do what they want and insult us. Is not just a gesture is an insult and I will kick his back side very quickly no worries then maybe understand ..... but maybe not .... must be one of those left overs from there own countries .... PO mate go home not here. We do not need people like that. Just a guy that love and respect this country with all their faults ..... How about Thai drivers respecting other drivers, instead of hiding behind their 80% black tinted windows & acting like a$$h0les? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickyJB Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 This are the type of people that should never come to Thailand they should be on there own countries no respect they still think they can do what they want and insult us. Is not just a gesture is an insult and I will kick his back side very quickly no worries then maybe understand ..... but maybe not .... must be one of those left overs from there own countries .... PO mate go home not here. We do not need people like that. Just a guy that love and respect this country with all their faults ..... How about Thai drivers respecting other drivers, instead of hiding behind their 80% black tinted windows & acting like a$$h0les? so true...never in my life had to drive on the roads surrounded by morons like ive seen in this country... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Muton Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 A lot of you seem to be assuming that the Thai driver with the dashcam is a man. This is not the case according to my wife, who read the original, Thai post. This IMO makes the clown not only an uncouth idiot but a cowardly uncouth idiotic bully. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Cowardly? I wouldn't want to get a Thai woman p!$$ed off Well I can certainly think of one that it's better for me to try to keep on the right side of!Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trujillo Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 He should be charged with sexual assault/battery of whatever the local law permits. Are you serious? What litiginous knee-jerk society are you from? People who are saying what a moron and all....who cares? He grabbed his balls, did not expose anything, and flipped the guy/woman off? So? Sexual assault? Battery? Jesus! Lighten up. The guy got cut off and made his play. Hey, "No harm, no foul." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESmith Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 A lot of you seem to be assuming that the Thai driver with the dashcam is a man. This is not the case according to my wife, who read the original, Thai post. This IMO makes the clown not only an uncouth idiot but a cowardly uncouth idiotic bully. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Maybe he couldn't see through their windscreen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiengmaijoe Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Anyone here admit to knowing him ? I do know that stretch of road very well as i live a little bit further on . I already posted here that I know him. Harry. In some respects his reputation precedes him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godden Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 for once i'm lost for words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicog Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 This are the type of people that should never come to Thailand they should be on there own countries no respect they still think they can do what they want and insult us. Is not just a gesture is an insult and I will kick his back side very quickly no worries then maybe understand ..... but maybe not .... must be one of those left overs from there own countries .... PO mate go home not here. We do not need people like that. Just a guy that love and respect this country with all their faults ..... How about Thai drivers respecting other drivers, instead of hiding behind their 80% black tinted windows & acting like a$$h0les? so true...never in my life had to drive on the roads surrounded by morons like ive seen in this country... Never driven in the Middle East then? Back in the day, my instructor once said "Think of the most absurd and nonsensical thing a person could do on the road and I will still guarantee you that you will see it". And oh how he was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianf Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 The guy in the camera car tried to overtake the Ford Ranger on the outside in the sharp left bend and then cut in front from the left. Dangerous and intimidating driving in a 'get out of my way' manner. It wasn't a guy. It was a woman. Like most Thais - no idea how to drive and use the road. But the Ford driver was moving all over the rad and I didn't spot any indication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquorice Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Remember undertaking is not permitted anywhere and in most other countries the law is adhered to. Not correct. From the Land Traffic Act B.E. 2522 Section 45 (400-1000B) No driver shall overtake another vehicle from the left-side unless: a. the vehicle to be overtaken is making a right turn or has given a signal that he is going to make a right turn. b. the roadway is arranged with two or more traffic lanes in the same direction. Since when does it need to be two lanes or people using right turn signal? I don't get it, is it there any law/traffic rule about it? For those who are interested - Land Traffic Act.pdf My reply was to a misinformed post. Enforcement is a whole different matter. Thank you Tywais, very interesting read. However, not once did I read the word 'mirrors'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundas Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 The headline did catch my eye, but I don't think I need to own up to anything at this stage. I only arrived here last night, on TG116. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazza40 Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 You f$&@ hypocrites!! This guy did what all you chicken f$&@ have wanted to do EVERYDAY but don't have the stones to do!! Who's the tosser and looser now? Apparently both you and he are class acts...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gemguy Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Í watched the vid.. the guy is an idiot.. but why the hell did he do it. It does not become clear from watching the vid. Did I miss something. Yes....he was in the left hand lane and turning left and while turning left he was also blending into the right hand lane.... Meantime the camera car was already in the right hand lane and also turning left while the pick up truck was ahead of him slightly in the lane to left and apparently believes he has the right away if he is ahead of the camera car and moving over into the right lane and in effect cutting in front of the camera car to get into the right hand lane ...but the camera car kept on going and did not allow the pick up truck to continue to move over into the right lane while the pick up truck more or less had to slightly swerve back into the left hand lane that the pick truck was trying to move out of. So the pick up truck driver was pissed because the camera car driver did not give way and let him make his move into the right hand lane. The pissed off pick up truck driver is driving just like the Thais drive where they make a move and rely on every other person driving to see the move they make and then accommodate that move...... or the other drivers are forced to accommodate the move or there could be a collision. By the book: If you are in the left lane and turning left ...as seen in the video..... you are required to stay in that left lane and complete the turn to the Ieft while staying in your left hand lane until the left hand turn is fully executed and you are now going straight ahead in the left lane, then you would use your right hand signal and signal to move over into the right hand lane. Regardless if the vehicle in the left hand lane is slightly ahead of the vehicle in the right hand lane the vehicle already occupying the right hand lane has right of way and does not have to give way to any vehicle trying to move into the right hand lane in front of him...rather the vehicle in the left lane, trying to move over to the right lane, has to wait until the right hand lane vehicle or vehicles pass by and leave appropriate distance and then the vehicle in the left lane can move over to the right hand lane......safely..... and fall in behind the passing vehicles in the right hand lane. Naturally, if the vehicle in the left hand lane is far ahead or a safe distance ahead of the vehicle(s) in the right hand lane then the left hand lane vehicle can move over into the right hand lane safely and uninhibited. That is by the book.... as we know it...but meaningless here in Thailand as they quickly chuck that out the window along with the repair manual as soon as they start driving. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESmith Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Í watched the vid.. the guy is an idiot.. but why the hell did he do it. It does not become clear from watching the vid. Did I miss something. Yes....he was in the left hand lane and turning left and while turning left he was also blending into the right hand lane.... Meantime the camera car was already in the right hand lane and also turning left while the pick up truck was ahead of him slightly in the lane to left and apparently believes he has the right away if he is ahead of the camera car and moving over into the right lane and in effect cutting in front of the camera car to get into the right hand lane ...but the camera car kept on going and did not allow the pick up truck to continue to move over into the right lane while the pick up truck more or less had to slightly swerve back into the left hand lane that the pick truck was trying to move out of. So the pick up truck driver was pissed because the camera car driver did not give way and let him make his move into the right hand lane. The pissed off pick up truck driver is driving just like the Thais drive where they make a move and rely on every other person driving to see the move they make and then accommodate that move...... or the other drivers are forced to accommodate the move or there could be a collision. By the book: If you are in the left lane and turning left ...as seen in the video..... you are required to stay in that left lane and complete the turn to the Ieft while staying in your left hand lane until the left hand turn is fully executed and you are now going straight ahead in the left lane, then you would use your right hand signal and signal to move over into the right hand lane. Regardless if the vehicle in the left hand lane is slightly ahead of the vehicle in the right hand lane the vehicle already occupying the right hand lane has right of way and does not have to give way to any vehicle trying to move into the right hand lane in front of him...rather the vehicle in the left lane, trying to move over to the right lane, has to wait until the right hand lane vehicle or vehicles pass by and leave appropriate distance and then the vehicle in the left lane can move over to the right hand lane......safely..... and fall in behind the passing vehicles in the right hand lane. Naturally, if the vehicle in the left hand lane is far ahead or a safe distance ahead of the vehicle(s) in the right hand lane then the left hand lane vehicle can move over into the right hand lane safely and uninhibited. That is by the book.... as we know it...but meaningless here in Thailand as they quickly chuck that out the window along with the repair manual as soon as they start driving. Cheers couldn't be bothered to read everything you wrote, BUT the camera car was directly behind the Ford, in the same lane. The cam car then started to overtake as they both turned (not a good idea). The Ford was in front & making the same move into the right lane. Cam car should've given way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren84310 Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 The guy in the camera car tried to overtake the Ford Ranger on the outside in the sharp left bend and then cut in front from the left. Dangerous and intimidating driving in a 'get out of my way' manner. I totally disagree... nothing wrong with overtaking on the right of him. However, the idiot farang moves into his path for no apparent reason other than to ocupy the right hand lane (he wasn't turning right or doing a U-turn and there was nothing in the midle lane to overtake).... so he actually cut up the guy with the camera, hence why then the camera guy took him on the inside, probably assuming the idiot farang was going to slow down to turn right. Complete prick! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickJ Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 No cyberfang.......Most Americans know about guns....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gemguy Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Í watched the vid.. the guy is an idiot.. but why the hell did he do it. It does not become clear from watching the vid. Did I miss something. Yes....he was in the left hand lane and turning left and while turning left he was also blending into the right hand lane.... Meantime the camera car was already in the right hand lane and also turning left while the pick up truck was ahead of him slightly in the lane to left and apparently believes he has the right away if he is ahead of the camera car and moving over into the right lane and in effect cutting in front of the camera car to get into the right hand lane ...but the camera car kept on going and did not allow the pick up truck to continue to move over into the right lane while the pick up truck more or less had to slightly swerve back into the left hand lane that the pick truck was trying to move out of. So the pick up truck driver was pissed because the camera car driver did not give way and let him make his move into the right hand lane. The pissed off pick up truck driver is driving just like the Thais drive where they make a move and rely on every other person driving to see the move they make and then accommodate that move...... or the other drivers are forced to accommodate the move or there could be a collision. By the book: If you are in the left lane and turning left ...as seen in the video..... you are required to stay in that left lane and complete the turn to the Ieft while staying in your left hand lane until the left hand turn is fully executed and you are now going straight ahead in the left lane, then you would use your right hand signal and signal to move over into the right hand lane. Regardless if the vehicle in the left hand lane is slightly ahead of the vehicle in the right hand lane the vehicle already occupying the right hand lane has right of way and does not have to give way to any vehicle trying to move into the right hand lane in front of him...rather the vehicle in the left lane, trying to move over to the right lane, has to wait until the right hand lane vehicle or vehicles pass by and leave appropriate distance and then the vehicle in the left lane can move over to the right hand lane......safely..... and fall in behind the passing vehicles in the right hand lane. Naturally, if the vehicle in the left hand lane is far ahead or a safe distance ahead of the vehicle(s) in the right hand lane then the left hand lane vehicle can move over into the right hand lane safely and uninhibited. That is by the book.... as we know it...but meaningless here in Thailand as they quickly chuck that out the window along with the repair manual as soon as they start driving. Cheers couldn't be bothered to read everything you wrote, BUT the camera car was directly behind the Ford, in the same lane. The cam car then started to overtake as they both turned (not a good idea). The Ford was in front & making the same move into the right lane. Cam car should've given way. You are partly correct...but after both vehicles turning left the pick truck momentarily stayed in what quickly became a center lane ( as seen in the video ) while a right hand lane was presented and available. The left hand turn was made with one vehicle behind the other but once the left turn was made by both vehicles the pick truck momentarily stayed in what became the center lane while a right hand lane ( seen in the video ) is now there to be occupied if no other vehicle is already in the right hand lane coming through and from the intersection they both turned left at. The vehicle behind the pick up truck quickly began to occupy the now available and unoccupied right hand lane as it presented itself "before" the pick up truck started to also make his move to the right hand lane. You can see the cam car is already in the right hand lane while the pick truck was trying to do the same thing and in effect closely cut in front of him. Defensive driving says that the camera car should have given way to avoid an accident ...but he stubbornly figured he had right of way because he was already in the right hand lane BEFORE the pick up truck ( as seen in the Video ) But yes, that is a close call but still the camera car fully occupied the right hand lane before the pick up truck so the camera car would have the right of way. Just because the pick up truck is slightly ahead of the camera car does not give him right of way when also trying to move to the right when the right hand lane is already occupied. I surmise the pick up truck, while making the same move to the right did not immediately see the camera car quickly occupy the right lane before him and had to give way...as he should have ...as the lane was already occupied. * If that right hand lane was already occupied by another vehicle or vehicles that had come through the intersection the pick up truck and the cam car would have had to YEILD to the any vehicles already in the right hand lane...correct....so in effect.... who ever is already in that right hand lane has right of way...correct" The camera car driver can not read the mind of the pick up truck driver. The fact is that the pick up truck driver "lingered" in the center lane momentarily before the cam car driver immediately occupied the right hand lane before the pick up truck driver realized there was another vehicle already occupying the right hand lane. Now bear with me here: In theory, both vehicles should have momentarily stayed in what became the center lane and then signaled with their blinkers to cautiously move over to the right hand lane ...but the driver behind the pick up truck made a very fast maneuver as the opportunity presented itself and quickly occupied the right hand lane before the pick up truck ahead of it had a chance to move over to the right hand lane. So, again, defensive driving says both vehicles should have stayed momentarily moving ahead in the center lane while the camera car would have seen that the pick up truck was also making a move to the right hand lane and then allowed that pick up truck in front of the cam car to make its move while the cam car cautiously moved in behind the pick up truck more or less at the same time and behind the pick up truck. I effect both of them were driving like Thai drivers making a fast move while relying on the other driver to see the quick maneuver while some one has to give way or forced to give way. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESmith Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Í watched the vid.. the guy is an idiot.. but why the hell did he do it. It does not become clear from watching the vid. Did I miss something. Yes....he was in the left hand lane and turning left and while turning left he was also blending into the right hand lane.... Meantime the camera car was already in the right hand lane and also turning left while the pick up truck was ahead of him slightly in the lane to left and apparently believes he has the right away if he is ahead of the camera car and moving over into the right lane and in effect cutting in front of the camera car to get into the right hand lane ...but the camera car kept on going and did not allow the pick up truck to continue to move over into the right lane while the pick up truck more or less had to slightly swerve back into the left hand lane that the pick truck was trying to move out of. So the pick up truck driver was pissed because the camera car driver did not give way and let him make his move into the right hand lane. The pissed off pick up truck driver is driving just like the Thais drive where they make a move and rely on every other person driving to see the move they make and then accommodate that move...... or the other drivers are forced to accommodate the move or there could be a collision. By the book: If you are in the left lane and turning left ...as seen in the video..... you are required to stay in that left lane and complete the turn to the Ieft while staying in your left hand lane until the left hand turn is fully executed and you are now going straight ahead in the left lane, then you would use your right hand signal and signal to move over into the right hand lane. Regardless if the vehicle in the left hand lane is slightly ahead of the vehicle in the right hand lane the vehicle already occupying the right hand lane has right of way and does not have to give way to any vehicle trying to move into the right hand lane in front of him...rather the vehicle in the left lane, trying to move over to the right lane, has to wait until the right hand lane vehicle or vehicles pass by and leave appropriate distance and then the vehicle in the left lane can move over to the right hand lane......safely..... and fall in behind the passing vehicles in the right hand lane. Naturally, if the vehicle in the left hand lane is far ahead or a safe distance ahead of the vehicle(s) in the right hand lane then the left hand lane vehicle can move over into the right hand lane safely and uninhibited. That is by the book.... as we know it...but meaningless here in Thailand as they quickly chuck that out the window along with the repair manual as soon as they start driving. Cheers couldn't be bothered to read everything you wrote, BUT the camera car was directly behind the Ford, in the same lane. The cam car then started to overtake as they both turned (not a good idea). The Ford was in front & making the same move into the right lane. Cam car should've given way. You are partly correct...but after both vehicles turning left the pick truck momentarily stayed in what quickly became a center lane ( as seen in the video ) while a right hand lane was presented and available. The left hand turn was made with one vehicle behind the other but once the left turn was made by both vehicles the pick truck momentarily stayed in what became the center lane while a right hand lane ( seen in the video ) is now there to be occupied if no other vehicle is already in the right hand lane coming through and from the intersection they both turned left at. The vehicle behind the pick up truck quickly began to occupy the now available and unoccupied right hand lane as it presented itself "before" the pick up truck started to also make his move to the right hand lane. You can see the cam car is already in the right hand lane while the pick truck was trying to do the same thing and in effect closely cut in front of him. Defensive driving says that the camera car should have given way to avoid an accident ...but he stubbornly figured he had right of way because he was already in the right hand lane BEFORE the pick up truck ( as seen in the Video ) But yes, that is a close call but still the camera car fully occupied the right hand lane before the pick up truck so the camera car would have the right of way. Just because the pick up truck is slightly ahead of the camera car does not give him right of way when also trying to move to the right when the right hand lane is already occupied. I surmise the pick up truck, while making the same move to the right did not immediately see the camera car quickly occupy the right lane before him and had to give way...as he should have ...as the lane was already occupied. * If that right hand lane was already occupied by another vehicle or vehicles that had come through the intersection the pick up truck and the cam car would have had to YEILD to the any vehicles already in the right hand lane...correct....so in effect.... who ever is already in that right hand lane has right of way...correct" The camera car driver can not read the mind of the pick up truck driver. The fact is that the pick up truck driver "lingered" in the center lane momentarily before the cam car driver immediately occupied the right hand lane before the pick up truck driver realized there was another vehicle already occupying the right hand lane. Now bear with me here: In theory, both vehicles should have momentarily stayed in what became the center lane and then signaled with their blinkers to cautiously move over to the right hand lane ...but the driver behind the pick up truck made a very fast maneuver as the opportunity presented itself and quickly occupied the right hand lane before the pick up truck ahead of it had a chance to move over to the right hand lane. So, again, defensive driving says both vehicles should have stayed momentarily moving ahead in the center lane while the camera car would have seen that the pick up truck was also making a move to the right hand lane and then allowed that pick up truck in front of the cam car to make its move while the cam car cautiously moved in behind the pick up truck more or less at the same time and behind the pick up truck. I effect both of them were driving like Thai drivers making a fast move while relying on the other driver to see the quick maneuver while some one has to give way or forced to give way. Cheers You should ask the police for cctv footage from all intersections in CM for the last month. Should keep you busy for the rest of your life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daiwill60 Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Whilst acknowledging and thanking you for the PDF, which is something I have been trying to get my hands on for a while now ( purely out of curiousity and to see if such an item actually existed, I must also ask , and I know you have answered this already, in hindsight, was there any real point in doing so, to be honest? As we all know, there is no section in it that says these rules should be adhered to by all people, and any failure to do so, that results in any damage to a non-Thai, or their vehicle, is not covered by the rules in this "Guide to Driving on Thai Roads for Thai people". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberfarang Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 >>This unusual type of aggressive behavioral display has rarely been caught on film outside their native America.<< Is that a typical American jesture ?..........never seen it in the UK or Ireland where the two fingured jesture is more common . They appear similar, but it`s easy to distinguish the behavioral differences between the 3 species. Your typical Brit and Irishmen always have a bottle of beer in one hand and a cigarette in the other. Usually Leo for the Brit and a Guinness for the Irishman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunsetT Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 ......Been on holiday Gordie? .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiengmaijoe Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 No cyberfang.......Most Americans know about guns....... He is American, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyL Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 No cyberfang.......Most Americans know about guns....... He is American, actually. And what does he have to say for himself now that he's a topic of discussion on at least two internet forums? Did he know he was performing his little dance for a lady and that it would be caught on camera? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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