Applying for a child's UK passport

[brewsterbudgen]

I'm in the middle of applying for my 8 month old son's UK passport.

His mother is Laotian and we are not married, nor has the birth been registered in the UK. Therefore, as I read it, I cannot sign the declaration (Section 9), even though I'm shown as the father on his Thai birth certificate and his mother must sign it. It seems strange for her to sign a declaration as she has very limited English reading ability!

Is this right?

[brewsterbudgen]

The declaration also refers to the signatory holding a UK passport which is obviously not the case if she's Laos!

Can she sign?

[Richard W]

I believe you may be able to sign, though your doing so might create problems, for the official first checking the signature will not know Thai law. The relevant sentence in the guidance notes, on p9, starts, "The father can sometimes give permission but usually only if he:". The key word is 'usually'. Under Thai law, do you have the full set of parental rights? There is some convoluted Thai process of making you 'legally the father'. It seems that the Thai birth certificate itself does not suffice! I fear you would have to supply the relevant documents and an explanation of Thai law.

It's probably a lot less hassle to get the mother to sign, especially as your son's case is not straightforward (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/798995-uk-citizenship-clearify-the-term-british-by-desent).

I can find nothing about the signatory of the declaration (I presume you refer to Section 9) having to be hold a British passport. Are you referring to the declaration, "I, or the person named in section 2 of this application (if different), am a British national and have not lost or given up my national status"? If so, the child's mother should be able to sign, for your son is the person named in Section 2, you think your son is British and she trusts your opinion. Unfortunately, your son's getting a British passport won't prove he is British - it will just demonstrate that someone at the passport office thinks he is British. It can always be challenged later.

[brewsterbudgen]

Thanks. I'm fairly sure that under Thai law I have no parental rights and even though the passport office in Liverpool might not know Thai law, I am not minded to sign a declaration that declares I have "parental responsibility" as it could come back to hurt me! I do think it's rather ambiguous though.

I think I might use a visa service as it's not proving as straightforward as I thought.

[primary tiff]

Yes,she can sign it, the person in section 2 is your child and as such is a British national. I did this recently and it is on this forum what i supplied with the application, as I am not married or live in Thailand she signed the declaration (I cannot see where it says they need to be a British passport) and I took it to Trendy all straight forward, I would not pay for a company to do it.

The declaration also refers to the signatory holding a UK passport which is obviously not the case if she's Laos!

Can she sign?

[Richard W]

Yes,she can sign it, the person in section 2 is your child and as such is a British national. I did this recently and it is on this forum what i supplied with the application, as I am not married or live in Thailand she signed the declaration (I cannot see where it says they need to be a British passport) and I took it to Trendy all straight forward, I would not pay for a company to do it.

The declaration also refers to the signatory holding a UK passport which is obviously not the case if she's Laos!

Can she sign?

Actually, there are complications. I hope Brewsterbudgen's son's mother can provide evidence of an address in Thailand - she's not Thai. Brewsterbudgen may end up having to register his son as British - under Section 3(2) - on the basis of his own long residence in Britain, and that may be cheaper (and quicker) than establishing in the British courts that he himself is British other than by descent rather than merely being British by descent. The law in their circumstances may be undecided rather than merely obscure.

[brewsterbudgen]

Yes,she can sign it, the person in section 2 is your child and as such is a British national. I did this recently and it is on this forum what i supplied with the application, as I am not married or live in Thailand she signed the declaration (I cannot see where it says they need to be a British passport) and I took it to Trendy all straight forward, I would not pay for a company to do it.

The declaration also refers to the signatory holding a UK passport which is obviously not the case if she's Laos!

Can she sign?

Actually, there are complications. I hope Brewsterbudgen's son's mother can provide evidence of an address in Thailand - she's not Thai. Brewsterbudgen may end up having to register his son as British - under Section 3(2) - on the basis of his own long residence in Britain, and that may be cheaper (and quicker) than establishing in the British courts that he himself is British other than by descent rather than merely being British by descent. The law in their circumstances may be undecided rather than merely obscure.

I have a rental contract for the house I rent for my family in Pattaya but it's in my name not hers. That said, I was going to put my condo address in Bangkok, which I own, as the address in section 2, as that is where our home is likely to be when the rental contract finishes.

Surely applying for a UK passport is going to be quicker and cheaper than using UK courts? I live and work full-time in Thailand. I am confident (ok, hopeful!) that my registration as a UK citizen in 1968 makes me British Otherwise than by Descent.

Edited November 8, 2015 by brewsterbudgen

[Richard W]

I have a rental contract for the house I rent for my family in Pattaya but it's in my name not hers. That said, I was going to put my condo address in Bangkok, which I own, as the address in section 2, as that is where our home is likely to be when the rental contract finishes.

See https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/462243/OS_Guidance_Gp2_09.15.PDF Table A. Remember, she's the one signing unless you make the effort to make yourself the 'legal father' in Thai law.

Surely applying for a UK passport is going to be quicker and cheaper than using UK courts? I live and work full-time in Thailand. I am confident (ok, hopeful!) that my registration as a UK citizen in 1968 makes me British Otherwise than by Descent.

I was looking at what happens if the Passport Office refuses a passport because they don't believe your son is British. I am now slightly worried that the Passport Office might grant him a passport as a child and then, when he is an adult and therefore cannot be registered as British, subsequently refuse to renew his passport because they have changed their mind about whether he is British. You might mitigate that by making sure you record your parents on the first passport application, so that you cannot be accused of concealing the fact that you have always been British.

It has occurred to me that you and your son might actually be Zimbabwean citizens under the latest version of the Zimbabwean constitution, but I presume you are not interested in investigating that reserve option. That option, if not exercised, evaporates for your son at his 19th birthday if he doesn't renounce his other nationalities.

[brewsterbudgen]

I have a rental contract for the house I rent for my family in Pattaya but it's in my name not hers. That said, I was going to put my condo address in Bangkok, which I own, as the address in section 2, as that is where our home is likely to be when the rental contract finishes.

See https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/462243/OS_Guidance_Gp2_09.15.PDF Table A. Remember, she's the one signing unless you make the effort to make yourself the 'legal father' in Thai law.

Surely applying for a UK passport is going to be quicker and cheaper than using UK courts? I live and work full-time in Thailand. I am confident (ok, hopeful!) that my registration as a UK citizen in 1968 makes me British Otherwise than by Descent.

I was looking at what happens if the Passport Office refuses a passport because they don't believe your son is British. I am now slightly worried that the Passport Office might grant him a passport as a child and then, when he is an adult and therefore cannot be registered as British, subsequently refuse to renew his passport because they have changed their mind about whether he is British. You might mitigate that by making sure you record your parents on the first passport application, so that you cannot be accused of concealing the fact that you have always been British.

It has occurred to me that you and your son might actually be Zimbabwean citizens under the latest version of the Zimbabwean constitution, but I presume you are not interested in investigating that reserve option. That option, if not exercised, evaporates for your son at his 19th birthday if he doesn't renounce his other nationalities.

For the address I propose to enclose proof of my address in Bangkok, which is also our "family"residence and is a condo I own, and proof that we rent a house in Pattaya which is our "holiday" residence (a one year rental contract). However, my girlfriend's name is not on either document as both are in my name. Her name is on all the hospital records for the birth of our son, so I will also include them.

I'm hoping my status as British Otherwise than by Descent is clearer than you describe. Rhodesia was a British colony when I was born and only declared independence (unilaterally) in the mid-60s. I was on my mother's passport until I was 7. I remember my parents joking that by becoming a registered citizen of the UK in 1968, I could no longer be called up to fight in Ian Smith's Rhodesian army. My Registration certificate shows both my parents' names and states that they are both British. Obviously if they refuse to issue him with a UK passport I will have to explore other options!

[Richard W]

I'm hoping my status as British Otherwise than by Descent is clearer than you describe. Rhodesia was a British colony when I was born and only declared independence (unilaterally) in the mid-60s. I was on my mother's passport until I was 7. I remember my parents joking that by becoming a registered citizen of the UK in 1968, I could no longer be called up to fight in Ian Smith's Rhodesian army. My Registration certificate shows both my parents' names and states that they are both British. Obviously if they refuse to issue him with a UK passport I will have to explore other options!

As I said in the earlier thread, the problem is that by Section 14.1.b.i of the British Nationality Act 1981, you are a British citizen by descent. To avoid an accusation of deceit, it should be apparent from the passport application that you are (also?) British by descent. Does your registration certificate state or imply how your parents were British?

I don't believe one can be both British by descent and British otherwise than by descent. You do. For example, if you had to make your son British by registering him under Section 3(2), you couldn't simply make him British otherwise than by descent by moving your family to the UK and then registering him under Section 3(5). Section 14.1.a would ensure that he remained British by descent. I have read that parents considering registering a child under Section 3(2) may be advised to wait until they move to the UK and then register the child under Section 3(5) so that the child will be British otherwise than by descent.

[Richard W]

The relevant Nationality Instruction is Chapter 20 of Nationality Instructions: Volume 1. I believe you were registered under Section 7 of the British Nationality Act 1948, and it seems that in the eyes of UKVI it had no effect on you. The text is far from clear. The only get-out I can see is if but for your registration as a CUKC you would have lost citizenship of the UK and Colonies when Zimbabwe became independent. As Ian Smith retained British citizenship, I think this is unlikely.

[brewsterbudgen]

Thanks. All I can do is apply for his passport and see what happens. So far the Liverpool passport office have been quite helpful and told me to send in my Rhodesian birth certificate and my UK Registration document.

[brewsterbudgen]

As an update to this thread, my 9-month old son's UK passport was issued without any problems, despite me being born in Rhodesia and only having a Rhodesian birth certificate, and my Laotian girlfriend living in Thailand. My registration as a British Citizen in 1968 was obviously enough to make me British Otherwise Than By Descent.

[Richard W]

I'm glad to be wrong. Thanks for the update.