UK citizenship clearify the term British by desent

[UncleT]

I'm going to apply for a British passport for my 9 months old half thai baby. I don't have a long requested birth certificate. I was born in 1961 in East Africa, under British colony. everyone in family have a British passport and a have found an old app. form with a number hand written starting with letter D----, with the old inkless circular stamp,with the British consulate details. At the bottom of the form another confirmation square stamp and signature of the british consular stating that my mother has been granted British citizenship. my dilama in that my dad's passed away, mothers got dementia and I don't have a so called citizenship certificate as such. Fourth five years ago there was no Visa system. just a voucher system which gave the rights to enter UK. I'm worried that with new boarder control and restrictions, am I going to be left high and dry.my passport shows me as a British citizen, is that enough? ?

[bobrussell]

Check:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/552969-british-citizenship-basics/

Your passport shows you are a British Citizen, not an overseas citizen therefore you should have no difficulties. Nitpicking but your child is 100% Thai and 100% British!!

[brewsterbudgen]

I had a similar query, as I will be applying for a UK passport for my (as yet unborn!) baby (mother from Laos) in a few months.

Like you, I was born in Africa (Rhodesia) in the early 1960s, although my parents (both British) brought me back to live in the UK when I was a baby and I have lived there ever since. In 1968 I was officially registered as a citizen of the UK and Colonies, under the British nationality Act 1948, and I have the original certificate. I've held a UK passport since 1968.

I am fairly sure that we both count as British citizens, but whether it's "by descent" or "otherwise than by descent" is crucial! I guess I might be in a better situation than you, as I have my Registration certificate.

Hopefully someone on the Forum might know the answer!

[7by7]

British by descent means that you inherited your British nationality from one or both of your parents; usually because you were born outside the UK or a qualifying territory (all the British overseas territories, except the sovereign base areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia in Cyprus).

British nationality can only descend one generation, so if you are British by descent then your children will only be British if they qualify in their own right by being born in the UK or a qualifying territory; unless their other parent is British otherwise than by descent.

British otherwise than by descent means that you are British in your own right; usually because you were born in the UK or a qualifying territory and at least one of your parents is British or is legally settled in the UK or the qualifying territory where you were born, or by some other means such as naturalisation or registration.

Brewsterbudgen, I am fairly sure that you are British otherwise than by descent as, regardless of your status prior, you were registered as British in 1968. To show this in any British passport application by your children produce your registration certificate.

Uncle T, I guess, and it is only a guess, that you may very well be, too. It depends, I think, on whether or not the country where you were born was at the time regarded as a qualifying territory under the nationality rules.

But, of course, you will need to provide proof of this to obtain a British passport for your children.

Sorry to be so vague, but British nationality is a complicated area.

I suggest that to be sure you email [email protected]

[petercool]

Two troll post removed plus one that quoted one of those.

[chiang mai]

The system is broken and beyond repair, it's all very tragic.

[Paul888]

Uncle T

Have you tried requesting a copy birth certificate online? Not sure how things worked in those days but your birth may have been registered by somebody.

You can do it online at https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

I got copies of mine there. It's not so hard. Cost is £9.25 per copy.

[brewsterbudgen]

Thanks 7by7, that's a very helpful and re-assuring answer, especially as no one else is suggesting otherwise.

I'm fairly confident that my registration as a UK citizen in 1968 qualifies me as British 'otherwise than by descent', but I will send a query to the advice email address you have provided.

[UncleT]

First I like to thanks..7by7 and Paul888 and others for taking their precious time to reply my humble enquiry. may God bless you and your loved ones.

I was born in a qualifying country kenya. I have tried both kenyan embassy in uk and bkk to get the original birth certificate, but they want a photo copy of what they supposed to b searching. which I don't have.

But I will try the Uk consulate directly. .big thanks to all

.v

[Richard W]

British by descent means that you inherited your British nationality from one or both of your parents; usually because you were born outside the UK or a qualifying territory (all the British overseas territories, except the sovereign base areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia in Cyprus).

<snip>

British otherwise than by descent means that you are British in your own right; usually because you were born in the UK or a qualifying territory and at least one of your parents is British or is legally settled in the UK or the qualifying territory where you were born, or by some other means such as naturalisation or registration.

Brewsterbudgen, I am fairly sure that you are British otherwise than by descent as, regardless of your status prior, you were registered as British in 1968. To show this in any British passport application by your children produce your registration certificate.

The problem is that Brewsterbudgen has always held the highest officially acknowledged tier of British nationality. ('By descent', 'having dual citizenship' and 'naturalised but Jewish' - because of the Law of Return - are not officially acknowledged as tiers.) If the principle of 'no upgrade' is upheld, then he is only a British citizen by descent. As an example of the principle of 'no upgrade', if his child were registered as British in infancy, the child would be British by descent, and could not be upgraded later, whereas if the family later moved to Britain and the child has not been registered as British, the child could ultimately be registered as British other than by descent.

Sorry to be so vague, but British nationality is a complicated area.

Indeed. Chapter 20 of the UK Visas and Immigration nationality instructions are explicitly unhelpful on registration under Section 7 of the 1948 act, which appears to be how Brewsterbudgen is registered.

[brewsterbudgen]

British by descent means that you inherited your British nationality from one or both of your parents; usually because you were born outside the UK or a qualifying territory (all the British overseas territories, except the sovereign base areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia in Cyprus).

<snip>

British otherwise than by descent means that you are British in your own right; usually because you were born in the UK or a qualifying territory and at least one of your parents is British or is legally settled in the UK or the qualifying territory where you were born, or by some other means such as naturalisation or registration.

Brewsterbudgen, I am fairly sure that you are British otherwise than by descent as, regardless of your status prior, you were registered as British in 1968. To show this in any British passport application by your children produce your registration certificate.

The problem is that Brewsterbudgen has always held the highest officially acknowledged tier of British nationality. ('By descent', 'having dual citizenship' and 'naturalised but Jewish' - because of the Law of Return - are not officially acknowledged as tiers.) If the principle of 'no upgrade' is upheld, then he is only a British citizen by descent. As an example of the principle of 'no upgrade', if his child were registered as British in infancy, the child would be British by descent, and could not be upgraded later, whereas if the family later moved to Britain and the child has not been registered as British, the child could ultimately be registered as British other than by descent.

Sorry to be so vague, but British nationality is a complicated area.

Indeed. Chapter 20 of the UK Visas and Immigration nationality instructions are explicitly unhelpful on registration under Section 7 of the 1948 act, which appears to be how Brewsterbudgen is registered.

Thanks 7by7 and Richard W.

I'm a bit confused by "The problem is that Brewsterbudgen has always held the highest officially acknowledged tier of British nationality." This doesn't sound like a problem!

[UncleT]

Just a slight twist to the whole nationality saga. ..

Being born before 1983 & in a qualifying country, before One of the parents were granted their british naturalisation. Please kindly someone with their knowledge and experience which category will this fall into? thanks

[7by7]

As far as I am aware, if neither of a person's parents were British when the person was born but one or both of them become British after the birth, then the person themselves does not automatically become British as well.

Certainly the case for my step daughter; who, in order to become British and being under 18 at the time, had to apply for registration as British when her mother applied for naturalisation.

But as said, this is a complicated area and a lot does depend not only on when you were born but also where.

Particularly if your were born in a former British colony prior to independence.

I am certainly outside my comfort zone so, as before, I suggest you email [email protected] with the full details of your birth and ask them.

Edited February 15, 2015 by 7by7

[Richard W]

Just a slight twist to the whole nationality saga. ..

Being born before 1983 & in a qualifying country, before One of the parents were granted their british naturalisation. Please kindly someone with their knowledge and experience which category will this fall into? thanks

Unfortunately, you'll have to rely on unqualified opinions, or, in all probability, have to purchase a qualified opinion.

You haven't quite explained how you became a British citizen. I am presuming that you became a British citizen when the status was created because you were a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (CUKC) with right of abode in the UK. On that basis, it would appear to depend on your father's citizenship when you were born.

If your father was, as it would appear that he was, a CUKC when you were born, then, like me, you were born a CUKC by birth and by descent. (In those days, 'by descent' did not mean 'by descent only', as it does now.) You therefore fall foul of Section 14.1.b.i of the British Nationality Act 1981 as being a CUKC by descent and being born outside the UK. This makes you a British citizen by descent. Note the British Overseas Citizens who are registered as British citizens automatically become British citizens by descent. Brewsterbudgen also falls foul of this clause.

Weirdly, if your father was not a CUKC when you were born, you would be a British citizen other than by descent! Like Brewsterbudgen, you're too British to pass on your nationality for free!

It's not inconceivable that there's a legal judgement that this was not parliament's intent.

One important caveat is that it is possible that your fathers were on Crown Service or similar when you were born. I suspect you are both aware of that get-out clause.

[Soutpeel]

Thanks 7by7, that's a very helpful and re-assuring answer, especially as no one else is suggesting otherwise.

I'm fairly confident that my registration as a UK citizen in 1968 qualifies me as British 'otherwise than by descent', but I will send a query to the advice email address you have provided.

You are most certainly a British citizen

[Richard W]

You are most certainly a British citizen

That is not in doubt. The question is whether the children will automatically be British, or whether British nationality would have to be bought for them. In Uncle T's case, the children would first have to move to the UK.

[brewsterbudgen]

You are most certainly a British citizen

That is not in doubt. The question is whether the children will automatically be British, or whether British nationality would have to be bought for them. In Uncle T's case, the children would first have to move to the UK.

I've emailed my

query to the address suggested. They say to allow 2 weeks, so when I get a reply I will post it here.

[ExPratt]

Have you been given this site

https://britishbydescent.wordpress.com/

If you want to talk to a UK based Immigration Lawyer let me know and I can pass on for you , Phone consultation and sunnary Email about 150 quid , but they'll put you straight

[brewsterbudgen]

Have you been given this site

https://britishbydescent.wordpress.com/

If you want to talk to a UK based Immigration Lawyer let me know and I can pass on for you , Phone consultation and sunnary Email about 150 quid , but they'll put you straight

I may well take you up on that, although I'm hoping my email query might answer my question.

Thanks for the link.

[brewsterbudgen]

You are most certainly a British citizen

That is not in doubt. The question is whether the children will automatically be British, or whether British nationality would have to be bought for them. In Uncle T's case, the children would first have to move to the UK.

I've emailed my

query to the address suggested. They say to allow 2 weeks, so when I get a reply I will post it here.

Well, 3 weeks later and I guess I shouldn't be surprised at their response - I don't think they'll be getting my £85! I will just apply for my son's UK passport, using my Rhodesian birth certificate and Certificate of British Citizenship, ans take it from there.

Here's their reply:

Dear xxxxxxxxxx,

Thank you for your correspondence requesting confirmation of status under British nationality law.

Since April 2009 our procedure for dealing with enquiries of this nature has changed.

A status letter gives an opinion about a person's British nationality status. All applications for a status letter must be submitted on form NS. A fee is charged for the issue of a status letter. Please note the current fee is £85. Status letters are not certificates of nationality. They merely record UKVI’s opinion that a person possesses a form of British nationality. Only the courts can determine conclusively whether that person is actually a British national. For this reason, great care should be taken when status letters are issued.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/application-for-confirmation-of-british-nationality-status-form-ns

Regards

Admin Officer 07

Customer Service Operations

UK Visas and Immigration

[Soutpeel]

Well, 3 weeks later and I guess I shouldn't be surprised at their response - I don't think they'll be getting my £85! I will just apply for my son's UK passport, using my Rhodesian birth certificate and Certificate of British Citizenship, ans take it from there.

give it a try they can only reject the application

however saying this you may have an issue for the following reason, this maybe true or not just relating what I was told at a British Embassy when I registered my daughters birth in SA many years ago

both parents were born in the UK, but naturalized as SA citizens i.e. both dual nationals

Daughter born in SA = SA citizen by birth, entitled to British citizenship/passport by direct descent

but what i was told was if my daughter stayed in SA, married another SA'er then her children, i.e. my grandchildren would not be entitled to British citizenship or passport.

If she lived in the UK then they would

I don't know how true it is what they told me this is, but seems if I am reading your posts correctly it may be a similar thing in your case ?

For me it's a moot point now as my daughter lives in the UK with my Ex-wife now anyway...

[brewsterbudgen]

Well, 3 weeks later and I guess I shouldn't be surprised at their response - I don't think they'll be getting my £85! I will just apply for my son's UK passport, using my Rhodesian birth certificate and Certificate of British Citizenship, ans take it from there.

give it a try they can only reject the application

however saying this you may have an issue for the following reason, this maybe true or not just relating what I was told at a British Embassy when I registered my daughters birth in SA many years ago

both parents were born in the UK, but naturalized as SA citizens i.e. both dual nationals

Daughter born in SA = SA citizen by birth, entitled to British citizenship/passport by direct descent

but what i was told was if my daughter stayed in SA, married another SA'er then her children, i.e. my grandchildren would not be entitled to British citizenship or passport.

If she lived in the UK then they would

I don't know how true it is what they told me this is, but seems if I am reading your posts correctly it may be a similar thing in your case ?

For me it's a moot point now as my daughter lives in the UK with my Ex-wife now anyway...

I don't think I'm in the same position. Although I was born in Rhodesia, I moved back to the UK with my British parents before I was 1 year old, and lived in the UK from then on. My parents never became Rhodesian citizens, in fact they only lived there for about 2 years.

[Soutpeel]

Well, 3 weeks later and I guess I shouldn't be surprised at their response - I don't think they'll be getting my £85! I will just apply for my son's UK passport, using my Rhodesian birth certificate and Certificate of British Citizenship, ans take it from there.

give it a try they can only reject the application

however saying this you may have an issue for the following reason, this maybe true or not just relating what I was told at a British Embassy when I registered my daughters birth in SA many years ago

both parents were born in the UK, but naturalized as SA citizens i.e. both dual nationals

Daughter born in SA = SA citizen by birth, entitled to British citizenship/passport by direct descent

but what i was told was if my daughter stayed in SA, married another SA'er then her children, i.e. my grandchildren would not be entitled to British citizenship or passport.

If she lived in the UK then they would

I don't know how true it is what they told me this is, but seems if I am reading your posts correctly it may be a similar thing in your case ?

For me it's a moot point now as my daughter lives in the UK with my Ex-wife now anyway...

I don't think I'm in the same position. Although I was born in Rhodesia, I moved back to the UK with my British parents before I was 1 year old, and lived in the UK from then on. My parents never became Rhodesian citizens, in fact they only lived there for about 2 years.

ah OK, think in your case you should be in the clear then and your son entitled to the PP, as using what I was told by the BE, you would be in effect in the same position as my daughter would have been in

so it wouldn't be a question of citizenship for your son, it may come into play with you son's children, dependent if they are living in the UK or not

they never make things easy do they so best of luck with this,

Had a good friend who was an Ex-Rhodie and the on paper his kids should have been entitled to British pp's, but he got that much of the run around by the British authorities, he give up, but found out they where entitled to Irish passports from either his mothers or fathers side of the family, cant remember which, and that what he got them in the end... Irish PP's

[7by7]

............both parents were born in the UK, but naturalized as SA citizens i.e. both dual nationals

Daughter born in SA = SA citizen by birth, entitled to British citizenship/passport by direct descent

but what i was told was if my daughter stayed in SA, married another SA'er then her children, i.e. my grandchildren would not be entitled to British citizenship or passport.

If she lived in the UK then they would

I don't know how true it is........

It is true; though you and her mother being naturalised as SA citizens is irrelevant.

As she was born outside of the UK or a qualifying territory, your daughter is British by descent.

British by descent means that you inherited your British nationality from one or both of your parents; usually because you were born outside the UK or a qualifying territory (all the British overseas territories, except the sovereign base areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia in Cyprus).

British nationality can only descend one generation, so if you are British by descent then your children will only be British if they qualify in their own right by being born in the UK or a qualifying territory; unless their other parent is British otherwise than by descent.

British otherwise than by descent means that you are British in your own right; usually because you were born in the UK or a qualifying territory and at least one of your parents is British or is legally settled in the UK or the qualifying territory where you were born, or by some other means such as naturalisation or registration.