oncearugge Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 This will thin out many very questionable foreigners living and hiding here. It likely in the long term will improve things. Those who have a serious (REAL) relationship with a Thai woman that have not married it could hurt. That is a very small minority. I think its a great idea the only thing i question is the amount in a bank account for six months and the required hotel reservation. That is NUTS! Very easy to get married and apply for a visa/extension of stay based on marriage. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post tribalfusion001 Posted November 9, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted November 9, 2015 This will thin out many very questionable foreigners living and hiding here. It likely in the long term will improve things. Those who have a serious (REAL) relationship with a Thai woman that have not married it could hurt. That is a very small minority. I think its a great idea the only thing i question is the amount in a bank account for six months and the required hotel reservation. That is NUTS! Very easy to get married and apply for a visa/extension of stay based on marriage. Not everybody wants to get married, some may not believe in marriage or have been married before and don't fancy doing it again! It seems a bit extreme just to stay in an emerging/third world country... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitsune Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 This will thin out many very questionable foreigners living and hiding here. It likely in the long term will improve things. Those who have a serious (REAL) relationship with a Thai woman that have not married it could hurt. That is a very small minority. I think its a great idea the only thing i question is the amount in a bank account for six months and the required hotel reservation. That is NUTS! Very easy to get married and apply for a visa/extension of stay based on marriage. Not everybody wants to get married, some may not believe in marriage or have been married before and don't fancy doing it again! It seems a bit extreme just to stay in an emerging/third world country... Especially that divorce is apparently a PITA here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tribalfusion001 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 This will thin out many very questionable foreigners living and hiding here. It likely in the long term will improve things. Those who have a serious (REAL) relationship with a Thai woman that have not married it could hurt. That is a very small minority. I think its a great idea the only thing i question is the amount in a bank account for six months and the required hotel reservation. That is NUTS! Very easy to get married and apply for a visa/extension of stay based on marriage. Not everybody wants to get married, some may not believe in marriage or have been married before and don't fancy doing it again! It seems a bit extreme just to stay in an emerging/third world country... Especially that divorce is apparently a PITA here. In my case, the divorce was quick and pain free, didn't cost anything either and I didn't give her any money (that's because I didn't have any 555). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oncearugge Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 This will thin out many very questionable foreigners living and hiding here. It likely in the long term will improve things. Those who have a serious (REAL) relationship with a Thai woman that have not married it could hurt. That is a very small minority. I think its a great idea the only thing i question is the amount in a bank account for six months and the required hotel reservation. That is NUTS! Very easy to get married and apply for a visa/extension of stay based on marriage. Not everybody wants to get married, some may not believe in marriage or have been married before and don't fancy doing it again! It seems a bit extreme just to stay in an emerging/third world country... I would never suggest marrying in order to secure a visa. But those who have been maintaining a long term "relationship" on back to back tourist visas will have to think again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post JackThompson Posted November 9, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted November 9, 2015 This will thin out many very questionable foreigners living and hiding here. It likely in the long term will improve things. Those who have a serious (REAL) relationship with a Thai woman that have not married it could hurt. That is a very small minority. I think its a great idea the only thing i question is the amount in a bank account for six months and the required hotel reservation. That is NUTS! I think it will thin out the good people, who followed the rules, and got visas per the regulations. The "questionable" types don't bother with following rules - didn't before, won't now. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VBF Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) This will thin out many very questionable foreigners living and hiding here. It likely in the long term will improve things. Those who have a serious (REAL) relationship with a Thai woman that have not married it could hurt. That is a very small minority. I think its a great idea the only thing i question is the amount in a bank account for six months and the required hotel reservation. That is NUTS! I think it will thin out the good people, who followed the rules, and got visas per the regulations. The "questionable" types don't bother with following rules - didn't before, won't now. And therein lies the rub! If you're inclined to take a chance and break the law, you will regardless of what it says! Especially if not doing so makes life harder for you. However IF (repeat IF) the mooted but not yet enforced bans for getting caught overstaying are passed into law, that may make a lot of people very worried - the penalties for overstay then could be fierce. Edited November 9, 2015 by VBF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitsune Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 This will thin out many very questionable foreigners living and hiding here. It likely in the long term will improve things. Those who have a serious (REAL) relationship with a Thai woman that have not married it could hurt. That is a very small minority. I think its a great idea the only thing i question is the amount in a bank account for six months and the required hotel reservation. That is NUTS! I think it will thin out the good people, who followed the rules, and got visas per the regulations. The "questionable" types don't bother with following rules - didn't before, won't now. Or it will prove the good people who follow the rules, that there is no benefit from it, in this country. And they too will turn to illegality. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oncearugge Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 This will thin out many very questionable foreigners living and hiding here. It likely in the long term will improve things. Those who have a serious (REAL) relationship with a Thai woman that have not married it could hurt. That is a very small minority. I think its a great idea the only thing i question is the amount in a bank account for six months and the required hotel reservation. That is NUTS! I think it will thin out the good people, who followed the rules, and got visas per the regulations. The "questionable" types don't bother with following rules - didn't before, won't now. I have followed the rules for years. I have no intention of being "thinned" out and there is no reason why I should be. The others, those who treat the "rules" with disdain are the ones who will suffer the consequences of their behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post JackThompson Posted November 9, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted November 9, 2015 I for one truely feel sorry for the under 50,s that came to los and followed the rules. Visa exempt,tourist visas etc. During that time here have made friends also maybe in a relatiinship etc. Now its al changed. Easy for me to not care as currently can stay here basically forever.. i wonder how people like myself on non imm o based on retirement might feel if rules changed. I seriously am sadbout folk that this has effected. Please dont talk anout genuine tourists . If thailand was so stupid or desperate to allow past legal methods of living here....then do a backflip. I love thailand but they do the most stupid things. Your friends may have been "legal" to the letter of the law but not to the spirit of the law which provided tourist visas not cheap residency visas ! Tourists come, see, enjoy and then go home as many of your friends may now have to do. Laws are regulations on human-activity written by other people with power. There is no diety involved - no spirit. One obeys laws for one of two possible reasons: 1. The consequences of not obeying are the use of force against oneself (would be 'foolish'). 2. It is not something one wanted to do anyway (would be 'wrong'). For me, violence, theft, and stealing jobs from people in their homeland fall into the 2nd category - removing laws on this would not change my behavior one whit. Those things are 'wrong'. But Immigration restrictions upon self-supporting persons with foreign-sourced income fall into the first category - the only reason to comply, is because the consequences for not obeying make disobedience 'foolish'. There is nothing inherently "wrong" with this activity - it even benefits the locals. Therefore, if the "rules" say there is no limit on "being in Thailand" while on TVs, then there is nothing at all 'wrong' or 'foolish' by doing so, IMO. I am puzzled by the opinions of others whom, it would seem, find it 'wrong' to do this. I cannot find any logical reason why it would be 'wrong'. There is no victim, and no "rule" has been broken. As an aside, there is a third case - when 'the law' mandates one do something 'morally wrong' - a long tangent not relavent to this discussion, though. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oncearugge Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I for one truely feel sorry for the under 50,s that came to los and followed the rules. Visa exempt,tourist visas etc. During that time here have made friends also maybe in a relatiinship etc. Now its al changed. Easy for me to not care as currently can stay here basically forever.. i wonder how people like myself on non imm o based on retirement might feel if rules changed. I seriously am sadbout folk that this has effected. Please dont talk anout genuine tourists . If thailand was so stupid or desperate to allow past legal methods of living here....then do a backflip. I love thailand but they do the most stupid things. Your friends may have been "legal" to the letter of the law but not to the spirit of the law which provided tourist visas not cheap residency visas ! Tourists come, see, enjoy and then go home as many of your friends may now have to do. Laws are regulations on human-activity written by other people with power. There is no diety involved - no spirit. One obeys laws for one of two possible reasons: 1. The consequences of not obeying are the use of force against oneself (would be 'foolish'). 2. It is not something one wanted to do anyway (would be 'wrong'). For me, violence, theft, and stealing jobs from people in their homeland fall into the 2nd category - removing laws on this would not change my behavior one whit. Those things are 'wrong'. But Immigration restrictions upon self-supporting persons with foreign-sourced income fall into the first category - the only reason to comply, is because the consequences for not obeying make disobedience 'foolish'. There is nothing inherently "wrong" with this activity - it even benefits the locals. Therefore, if the "rules" say there is no limit on "being in Thailand" while on TVs, then there is nothing at all 'wrong' or 'foolish' by doing so, IMO. I am puzzled by the opinions of others whom, it would seem, find it 'wrong' to do this. I cannot find any logical reason why it would be 'wrong'. There is no victim, and no "rule" has been broken. As an aside, there is a third case - when 'the law' mandates one do something 'morally wrong' - a long tangent not relavent to this discussion, though. I would suggest that those who "do nothing wrong" attempt to do it in Australia by entering with a tourist visa and then staying for as long as they wish. Would that work out OK ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AYJAYDEE Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I for one truely feel sorry for the under 50,s that came to los and followed the rules. Visa exempt,tourist visas etc. During that time here have made friends also maybe in a relatiinship etc. Now its al changed. Easy for me to not care as currently can stay here basically forever.. i wonder how people like myself on non imm o based on retirement might feel if rules changed. I seriously am sadbout folk that this has effected. Please dont talk anout genuine tourists . If thailand was so stupid or desperate to allow past legal methods of living here....then do a backflip. I love thailand but they do the most stupid things. Your friends may have been "legal" to the letter of the law but not to the spirit of the law which provided tourist visas not cheap residency visas ! Tourists come, see, enjoy and then go home as many of your friends may now have to do. Laws are regulations on human-activity written by other people with power. There is no diety involved - no spirit. One obeys laws for one of two possible reasons: 1. The consequences of not obeying are the use of force against oneself (would be 'foolish'). 2. It is not something one wanted to do anyway (would be 'wrong'). For me, violence, theft, and stealing jobs from people in their homeland fall into the 2nd category - removing laws on this would not change my behavior one whit. Those things are 'wrong'. But Immigration restrictions upon self-supporting persons with foreign-sourced income fall into the first category - the only reason to comply, is because the consequences for not obeying make disobedience 'foolish'. There is nothing inherently "wrong" with this activity - it even benefits the locals. Therefore, if the "rules" say there is no limit on "being in Thailand" while on TVs, then there is nothing at all 'wrong' or 'foolish' by doing so, IMO. I am puzzled by the opinions of others whom, it would seem, find it 'wrong' to do this. I cannot find any logical reason why it would be 'wrong'. There is no victim, and no "rule" has been broken. As an aside, there is a third case - when 'the law' mandates one do something 'morally wrong' - a long tangent not relavent to this discussion, though. you are misusing the meaning of the word "spirit" in this case. and just because there is an unintended loophole in a written law that can be used legally despite the fact it wasnt intended to be used that way doesnt make it moral. The use of loopholes like that is what lawyers do. lawyers dont recognize morality. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jspill Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 you are misusing the meaning of the word "spirit" in this case. and just because there is an unintended loophole in a written law that can be used legally despite the fact it wasnt intended to be used that way doesnt make it moral. The use of loopholes like that is what lawyers do. lawyers dont recognize morality. Who defines what is a loophole and what isn't? Sounds like something a lawyer would do. I would suggest that those who "do nothing wrong" attempt to do it in Australia by entering with a tourist visa and then staying for as long as they wish. Would that work out OK ? Health wise, yes, given deaths in Thailand's IDC are relatively frequent. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AYJAYDEE Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 you are misusing the meaning of the word "spirit" in this case. and just because there is an unintended loophole in a written law that can be used legally despite the fact it wasnt intended to be used that way doesnt make it moral. The use of loopholes like that is what lawyers do. lawyers dont recognize morality. Who defines what is a loophole and what isn't? Sounds like something a lawyer would do. I would suggest that those who "do nothing wrong" attempt to do it in Australia by entering with a tourist visa and then staying for as long as they wish. Would that work out OK ? Health wise, yes, given deaths in Thailand's IDC are relatively frequent. the person who wrote the law of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oncearugge Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 you are misusing the meaning of the word "spirit" in this case. and just because there is an unintended loophole in a written law that can be used legally despite the fact it wasnt intended to be used that way doesnt make it moral. The use of loopholes like that is what lawyers do. lawyers dont recognize morality. Who defines what is a loophole and what isn't? Sounds like something a lawyer would do. I would suggest that those who "do nothing wrong" attempt to do it in Australia by entering with a tourist visa and then staying for as long as they wish. Would that work out OK ? Health wise, yes, given deaths in Thailand's IDC are relatively frequent. You have the evidence for that assertion ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jspill Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) You have the evidence for that assertion ? http://oxmofm.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Inhuman-Detention-Conditions-in-Bangkok.pdf http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/78424-farang-prince-dies-in-thai-jail/ http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/780211-my-experience-at-idc-for-overstaying/page-5#entry8741823 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Thailand#Deaths_relating_to_the_2003_war_on_drugs https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/09/01/thailand-migrant-children-locked http://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/filmmaker-visits-detention-centers-01072015171346.html/ the person who wrote the law of course So it's not a loophole if Thailand hasn't defined a clear limit on tourist visa stay. Edited November 9, 2015 by jspill 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tribalfusion001 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) You have the evidence for that assertion ? http://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/filmmaker-visits-detention-centers-01072015171346.html/ http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/780211-my-experience-at-idc-for-overstaying/page-5#entry8741823 http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/78424-farang-prince-dies-in-thai-jail/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Thailand#Deaths_relating_to_the_2003_war_on_drugs https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/09/01/thailand-migrant-children-locked Freelance writers always know a source Edited November 9, 2015 by tribalfusion001 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post whitemouse Posted November 9, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted November 9, 2015 You miss my point.......as usual . Blind freddy could forsee no rule about the limit to back to back tv being just blank cheque to abuse. I am over this. Thai set up these rules and guess what.....they now see that the rules that THEY made are stupid. The solution....introduce another stupid visa. METV. Most brainless mob you could nit invent 'Brainless' being the key word. And it applies to everything here.Look at Singapore, geographically few hundred kilometers away, but light years ahead of Thailand in every economic measure. There is no comparison. Why is that? Other South East Asian nations have legitimate reasons for laggig behind rest of the world, Vietnam was burnt to the grownd, Cambodia a devastating civil war. Thailand has enjoyd peace and prosperity. But look at it. And now look at Singapore. These are neighbouring nations, yet they seem far apart as Nigeria and Denmark. This latest immigration disaster fits the patern of gross mismanagement and incompetence here perfectly! Apply logic and reason, and then do the opposite! We speculate here what may have been the rational behind this new METV, and we are trying to come up with answers, doing it is waste of time. There is no logic here. Things just happen here, and logic is not a word in dictionaries here. Economic growth, and countries development are not in minds of people coming up with rules here. Nothing drastic will happen as a result of this new rule, maybe few less Thais learning English, few less dollars being spent to benefit Thai economy. But add past decades of similarly poor decisons in every field, the staggering, unbelievable incompetence, and it becomes clear why Thailand is where it's at today, and Singapore is what it is. Again, other than management, and few hundred miles separate these two nations, yet in terms of Human Development Index (HDI) they can't even be compared. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post whitemouse Posted November 9, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted November 9, 2015 This will thin out many very questionable foreigners living and hiding here. It likely in the long term will improve things. Those who have a serious (REAL) relationship with a Thai woman that have not married it could hurt. That is a very small minority. I think its a great idea the only thing i question is the amount in a bank account for six months and the required hotel reservation. That is NUTS! Who are those 'questionable' foreigners, that need to be thinned out, please? No names please, just describe the type, what makes some foreigners questionable to you? What about the foreigners who are hiding here. Who are they, and hiding from who? Playing hide and seek with their Thai family, while not legally married, and now finally law catches up with them, and you get your revenge? At what age does a man becomes so sad, so pathetic, that he finds pleasure in other mans misery, do you know? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tribalfusion001 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 This will thin out many very questionable foreigners living and hiding here. It likely in the long term will improve things. Those who have a serious (REAL) relationship with a Thai woman that have not married it could hurt. That is a very small minority. I think its a great idea the only thing i question is the amount in a bank account for six months and the required hotel reservation. That is NUTS! Who are those 'questionable' foreigners, that need to be thinned out, please? No names please, just describe the type, what makes some foreigners questionable to you? What about the foreigners who are hiding here. Who are they, and hiding from who? Playing hide and seek with their Thai family, while not legally married, and now finally law catches up with them, and you get your revenge? At what age does a man becomes so sad, so pathetic, that he finds pleasure in other mans misery, do you know? The funny thing is that these bitter types are just at the mercy of the government as anyone on a tourist visa, after all any type of visa can be changed or scrapped. If these types love the country so much and don't like "questionable" foreigners, then why not go down the citizenship route and have a say as a Thai citizen? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLCrab Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Conversely I get tired of reading posts from persons who claim that, if the Thai Visa/Immigration rules do not conform to their immediate needs, they must be stupid and "Don't they realize that fill-in-the-blank?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post bbi1 Posted November 9, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted November 9, 2015 This will thin out many very questionable foreigners living and hiding here. It likely in the long term will improve things. Those who have a serious (REAL) relationship with a Thai woman that have not married it could hurt. That is a very small minority. I think its a great idea the only thing i question is the amount in a bank account for six months and the required hotel reservation. That is NUTS! "This will thin out many very questionable foreigners living and hiding here." Really? If I recall, about a year ago there was a big notorious Russian mafia figure arrested in Pattaya & deported back to Russia living on a retirement visa. So next that should be cancelled is the retirement visa to get rid of those "very questionable foreigners living and hiding here." 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbi1 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 This will thin out many very questionable foreigners living and hiding here. It likely in the long term will improve things. Those who have a serious (REAL) relationship with a Thai woman that have not married it could hurt. That is a very small minority. I think its a great idea the only thing i question is the amount in a bank account for six months and the required hotel reservation. That is NUTS! I think it will thin out the good people, who followed the rules, and got visas per the regulations. The "questionable" types don't bother with following rules - didn't before, won't now. Exactly. African drug dealers are still going to be here all over the place. Business as usual for them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLCrab Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) I am actually intrigued by this one year METV visa as it may prove an alternative should rules change and I can no longer obtain a one-year extension of stay without depositing 800K baht (or maybe more) in a Thai bank account. I usually go back each year to USA anyway for 3 weeks and I live close enough to a border point that the 60 day entry wold not be a problem. Edited November 9, 2015 by JLCrab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbi1 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 rules here. Nothing drastic will happen as a result of this new rule, maybe few less Thais learning English, few less dollars being spent to benefit Thai economy. But add past decades of similarly poor decisons in every field, the staggering, unbelievable incompetence, and it becomes clear why Thailand is where it's at today, and Singapore is what it is. Again, other than management, and few hundred miles separate these two nations, yet in terms of Human Development Index (HDI) they can't even be compared. How will the new METV make less Thais want to learn English. I don't get it, please explain? Seems to me lots of Thais want to learn English.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tribalfusion001 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 rules here. Nothing drastic will happen as a result of this new rule, maybe few less Thais learning English, few less dollars being spent to benefit Thai economy. But add past decades of similarly poor decisons in every field, the staggering, unbelievable incompetence, and it becomes clear why Thailand is where it's at today, and Singapore is what it is. Again, other than management, and few hundred miles separate these two nations, yet in terms of Human Development Index (HDI) they can't even be compared. How will the new METV make less Thais want to learn English. I don't get it, please explain? Seems to me lots of Thais want to learn English.... Lack of teachers who work on tourist visas I think he meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoicccc Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) In Savannakhet now, no queues here. Around 10 people here at consulate opening hour. The dude in front of me wanted to pay for DETV but for some reason they only gave him single entry after flipping through the passport full of visas. He didn't argue it either and they just handed the other 1000 baht back. Not sure if I missed something but found it a bit weird. He also didn't write "2 entries" on the application like I suggested and like I did. On my turn I said "double entry please", and they took my 2000 baht. Another guy was confused about the whole tourist visa thing in general, he asked for multientry visa, saying he wants to stay for 6 months. Was clearly his first time applying without looking into things at all. They said they don't have it, changes on Nov 13th. The guy asked "Where can I get it?", immigration officer replied "home country". Edited November 10, 2015 by stoicccc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leighd7 Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 All a bit crazy. If you go back a few years when there was political problems. They decided to give doubles entries away for free to boost tourists. One end of the scale to another. One day they will get it right, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotheruser Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 I think it is pretty obvious the Thai elite visa is there for anybody wishing to get a visa that doesn't have a retirement visa or a work permit. I used to think people were snobs who said this but seriously if you can't stump up the 500k to get the elite visa you really can't afford to be over here. They should get rid of the 20,000 limit for over staying and charge 500 a day with no limit at all. The elite visa is around 300 a day it is cheaper than that would be. If you can not afford 300 Baht a day then Thailand really doesn't need you and the argument about how much you bring into the economy is a moot point. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanook Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 This will thin out many very questionable foreigners living and hiding here. It likely in the long term will improve things. Those who have a serious (REAL) relationship with a Thai woman that have not married it could hurt. That is a very small minority. I think its a great idea the only thing i question is the amount in a bank account for six months and the required hotel reservation. That is NUTS! Very easy to get married and apply for a visa/extension of stay based on marriage. Not everybody wants to get married, some may not believe in marriage or have been married before and don't fancy doing it again! It seems a bit extreme just to stay in an emerging/third world country... Not to mention even if you marry, there are other hurdles and still no reasonable path to permanent residency or citizenship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.png.3b3332cc2256ad0edbc2fe9404feeef0.png)
.thumb.jpg.bc523c85a8d558dbc282dca7a2e602c9.jpg)
Recommended Posts