Turkey 'shoots down' warplane near Syrian-Turkish border

[jomcondo]

this can't go unpunished

[Publicus]

 

It is of significance to mention a bit here about Nato and certain of its members as military powers of the world.

Of the world's top ten military forces and powers, five of 'em are in Nato. Here's how the five that are in Nato rank globally.....

USA - 1

UK - 5

France - 6

Germany - 8

Turkey - 10

Russia ranks number 2 of the world's military powers, the CCP China number 3. And the CCP Dictators in Beijing are definitely standing back from this one. Beijing is rather busy at the moment hollering about the US Navy having the CCP Boyz tied up in knots in the South China Sea.

Btw Israel globally is number 11.

Some of the other Nato members and their world's military strength rankings...

Canada - 14

Italy - 16

Poland - 19

http://www.globalfirepower.com/

(Yes Canada, 14th military power of the world. Most Canadians don't know it either.)

What would be more interesting would be how those rankings worked out in % of total world military strength???

Anyone interested in a particular measurement of military strength of Nato by nation would be welcome to visit the linked website and post his on-topic findings. Or from any website.

This poster researched and posted a particular military aspect of Nato vs Russia (and China) of interest to me and related to the topic/thread.

Rather than to presume to question this poster's individual interest and focus, you might just move on to your own interest to research and post thx. Good luck with that individual pursuit.

numbers mean nothing, it's about the ability to deploy, training and the level of technology

We saw during desert storm how the Iraq air force (Russian kit) was disabled/destroyed by the USAF in a couple of days, some managed to flee to Iran

Yes General Sir, we did see that Sir.

We also saw in 1991 how the Iraqi soldiers in the middle of the barren and desolate desert were stupefied when the US 1st Armoured Division rolled up in front of them. No roads there or anywhere for hundreds of miles. No cities around or along the route. Not even a tree to fix on to use as a reference point. Nuthin except GPS to get you where you wanted to be.

And General Swartzkopf's strategy of an end sweep through Iraq while feigning a frontal assault to Kuwait from SA while the US 1st Marine Division hung off the coast in a fleet of ships to pretend an amphibious invasion. The two head fakes caused Saddam to fix his forces in place in Kuwait while the 1st Armored Division cut off their escape route into the desert behind 'em.Slam bang war over as soon as it began. The Iraqi army's only escape route already well covered by the USAF immediately became known as "Death Highway." A turkey shoot.

Almost any military analyst will assert that Nato countries as measured against Russia have superior personnel, training, leadership, command, control and communications. Superior armament assets, technology, ready deployment and standby deployments, to include quality of reserve forces, history of successes;,more government and private armed forces academies which are diverse and of high quality; better systems of logistics and support; enlisted personnel who come from superior civilian education systems and the like.

Indeed, after General Patton defeated Marshal Erwin Rommel in the Battle of Kasserine Pass in North Africa, Patton stood on the plateau overlooking his victorious battle scene and remarked, "Rommel you ba*stard! I read your book."

General sir.

[nottocus]

It's gonna be WW3 boys. Better buckle up.

[manarak]

Indeed, after General Patton defeated Marshal Erwin Rommel in the Battle of Kasserine Pass in North Africa, Patton stood on the plateau overlooking his victorious battle scene and remarked, "Rommel you ba*stard! I read your book."

General sir.

huh?

Kasserine was a humiliating US defeat, and Patton wasn't even there...

[Chicog]

Which was is the wind blowing?

If it's heading West I'll just stay here, but if the fallout's coming my way, I'm starting my Xmas holidays early.

[Morch]

Sounds like a recipe for further escalating things rather than a finding a diplomatic solution.

Turkey is hardly a nobody. Location location location. and masses of refugees that would otherwise head to Europe, just to name two factors.

What would Russia gain at this time by opening yet another front?

Turkey has been playing a dirty game there for too long and particularly Erdogan has been extremely annoying in the past years with his Islamist agenda. He needs to be taught a lesson, I hope the Russians can do it without risk for stability.

Yes, I think Russia will ignore Turkey proper and instead annihilate the Turkmen militia in the region and maybe seize future opportunities to shoot down Turkish airplanes bombing Kurds.

I think Turkey will allow the militia to retreat inside Turkey, which could possibly force Russia to station ground troops there to keep the Turkey border region under control, otherwise the militias could just attack from Syria.

It wouldn't be a bad thing if Russia was controlling that border, because Turkey still lets many terrorists through to join rebel islamist ranks in Syria.

I don't think anyone, neither the Russians nor the coalition, really trusts Turkey or supports its actions. The Turks are simply in a position to do as they will, as long as its not overly obvious. Both the West (EU/NATO) and the Russians stand to lose too much by messing relationship with Turkey, which is why I think there will be nothing major. Then again, when you got the Middle East, Erdogan and Putin on the same OP, "volatile" is a mild way to describe things.

Concur Russia will not cease attacking in the area and Turkey allowing retreat into its territory. As for intercepting Turkish planes - maybe, but probably not as in actually shooting down, there are several ways to send a message without going that far. Russian ground troops on the border? Unlikely. Too much manpower, to much of an easy target for whomever. Also, this would further hurt Assad's already minimal prestige, so depends on which angle he is played.

I doubt Putin actually wants to maintain a massive long term ground presence in Syria - "Never get involved in a land war in Asia".

Okay, the question is on the table: who will secure that area once the Russians have bombed the shit out of everything there?

Because if the border is not tight, Turkey will likely knife Syria in the back.

I don't think Assad got enough manpower to keep the border tight.

That's assuming the border would mean much when the fighting is over. Syria coming out of this war the way it was on day 1 is not assured.

Doubt it will cease to be the smuggling free-for-all it always was, no matter who's in nominal control,

[Morch]

Russia is probably the most overrated country in the internet boards. Their military budget is mere 60 billion $ compared to 500 $ of the US. Heck even Turkeys military budget is 30 billion dollars. Their military technology is not that advanced either. They're nothing but hype. Yeah sure, they have nukes, but can they use it, especially on a country which shares a border with the EU? The only undisputed super power is the US.

In terms of that sizable Turkish defense budget being applied to fighting IS, things look less than impressive.

With all due respect to Turkish military might and the obligatory chest beating, they are no match for Russia on their own.

Russia is not the strongest military power, but it does enjoy relative freedom from domestic political constraints, public opinion and human rights considerations when it comes to employing it.

[Morch]

I was watching BBC about 15 minutes ago. They said that that sector of air space juts out into Syria. That seems odd that 1 country can claim the air space over a neighbour.

No country I know of has a straight line ....even the USA and Canadian border juts out to and fro.

Pilots have (necessarily) maps, and should have ATC/TacOps when flying armed over borders. This was deliberate.

Things are a bit more edgy even on relaxed days when it comes to the Middle East. An foreign aircraft flying too close to the border or flying in a vector heading to the border might get warned before actually crossing over. Next step would be flashing it (if military), or sending a couple of interceptors to shoo it away. Anything short of turning back or landing (under certain situations) stands a reasonable chance of being shot out of the sky.

Unless mistaken, the Turks earlier announced they consider the area adjacent to the border a security zone. Not going to argue over the legality of this action, it is what it is. While this could have been conceived as applying to ground forces, perhaps the Russian air campaign changed things.

Either way, especially under current circumstances, not playing it safe could turn nasty real quick, whether intentionally or not.

As an added consideration, having the technology is one thing. Combat experience is another. There are not many air forces with extensive combat experience, and even less so when it comes to active deployment in foreign parts. The Russians haven't been at it for years now, can't expect them to preform on par with USA and certain NATO countries.

[Morch]

About time. Hope Russia listens to issues regarding cross border incursions.

But it's ok for all and sundry to cross border incursion into Syria?

Under current circumstances, yes.

[Morch]

That Russian bomber must be a real piece of crap if it can be shot down by a 30 year old F-16 flown by a Turkish pilot.

Maybe because the Russian bomber happens to be a 40 year old one.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/873340-turkey-shoots-down-warplane-near-syrian-turkish-border/?p=10116957

[MobileContent]

Recep Tayip Erdogan's son "BILAL ERDOGAN" with his ISIS brothers

[Thongkorn]

America has had planes shot down for the same action , Pilots not going around pieces of land like fingers, trying to go across, so it's not just Russia who tends to push its bets.

[MobileContent]

The killer of the Russian pilots have been identified as a Turkish citizen Alparslan Çelik from Elazig who is the son of a Turkish mayor and not a Syrian Turkmen, but a member of Turkey's gray wolves.

[JemJem]

I had a bad feeling from the very beginning of the Syrian conflict when the so-called 'Syrian opposition meetings' were held many times in my country, Turkey. I had a feeling that this would drag Turkey into the Syrian mess and would have many negative consequences. My fears came true. Of course, another sad thing is that many Western countries supported these meetings. I think those meetings did nothing but help the Islamist groups get stronger and stronger.

Not only it is bad enough that my country is run by mollah-wannabe fascists but also very bad that the country's reputation throughout the world is sinking lower and lower.

Non-fascist Turks don't deserve this mess. By the way, many nationalist Turks also support the Islamist government in this latest issue. In Turkey, many times, Islamists and nationalists come together in force. Fascism-brotherhood.

[Morch]

Perhaps it's not matching your 'stars and stripes' rhetoric that you try to push ad nauseum...but it's not the first time a NATO force conducted strikes during the Syrian civil war.

In September 2013, 2 US ballistic missiles were fired from Spain and were heading to Damascus. The Russians intercepted one, and the other was guided and also neutralised above Mediterranean sea, just in front of Syrian coastline.

The Russians used 2 types of technologies in their missiles defensive system. NATO allies understood at that moment that Russian military technology was at least 15 years more advanced.

Defeating frontline of the Turkmen doesn't require high-tec weaponry. It's a question of time when the Syrian Army of Assad will join the Kurdish frontline.

Idem dito for the Golan heights, but this time it's the Hezbollah vs Al Nusra and what some people call 'the moderate' rebels. I expect some irritation from Israeli IDF.

Turkey will also be isolated and gets as per OP already irritated...

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1448447334.442604.jpg

"In September 2013, 2 US ballistic missiles were fired from Spain and were heading to Damascus. The Russians intercepted one, and the other was guided and also neutralised above Mediterranean sea, just in front of Syrian coastline.

The Russians used 2 types of technologies in their missiles defensive system. NATO allies understood at that moment that Russian military technology was at least 15 years more advanced."

Or perhaps....

Israel Was Testing a Missile, Not the Waters

Amos Harel Sep 04, 2013 6:00 AM

The routine missile test Israel conducted Tuesday morning as part of its Homa missile defense strategy unintentionally placed it into the regional and inter-power tensions surrounding a possible U.S. action in Syria. The Russian early-warning system that first detected the launch mistakenly identified it as an event related to preparations to attack Syria. More than an hour passed from the Russians’ mistaken announcement until Israel clarified the facts.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.545250

And...

Russia Reprimands Israeli Military Attache Over Ballistic Missile Test

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.545994

[ace]

I doubt any overt military response into Turkey from Russians. This represents a great opportunity for them to isolate Turkey further from NATO which would be highly beneficial tactically for their southern theatre. Also they can use the incident domestically to bash NATO, and in the Vienna negotiations too. Its such a gift its almost too gpod to be true....

[manarak]

Okay, the question is on the table: who will secure that area once the Russians have bombed the shit out of everything there?

Because if the border is not tight, Turkey will likely knife Syria in the back.

I don't think Assad got enough manpower to keep the border tight.

That's assuming the border would mean much when the fighting is over. Syria coming out of this war the way it was on day 1 is not assured.

Doubt it will cease to be the smuggling free-for-all it always was, no matter who's in nominal control,

From my point of view, the opposite is true: as long as there is fighting in Syria, that border is important, because if it remains porous, new enemies can enter Syria that way.

[OJAS]

Putin is right Turkey assist ISIS they buy their stolen oil and feed reinforcements across their border, disgusting.

And how long before Erdogan welcomes ISIS with open arms into vast swathes of Turkey as an extension of their "caliphate", I wonder?

[mcfish]

Private pilots, a hundred thousand or more per day globally deal with imaginary borders that surround airports. You learn that at the most basic level. In the air force especially in a war zone they would know it within a 100 meters

Sent from my SC-01D using Tapatalk

[mpa]

Foreign Minister of Russia, Mr Lavrov:

"Turkish planes violate Greece's airspace some 1,500 times a year.

As for the recommendations to our citizens not to visit Turkey, this is not revenge, this was not the off-the-cuff decision. We assessed the presence of the terrorist threat in Turkey without bias."

RT today's article:

They know how it’s done’: Turkey violated Greek airspace 2,244 times in 2014 alone

All borders are routinely tested.....I think we all know that.

Routinely tested you said? Sure.

[Publicus]

Perhaps it's not matching your 'stars and stripes' rhetoric that you try to push ad nauseum...but it's not the first time a NATO force conducted strikes during the Syrian civil war.

In September 2013, 2 US ballistic missiles were fired from Spain and were heading to Damascus. The Russians intercepted one, and the other was guided and also neutralised above Mediterranean sea, just in front of Syrian coastline.

The Russians used 2 types of technologies in their missiles defensive system. NATO allies understood at that moment that Russian military technology was at least 15 years more advanced.

Defeating frontline of the Turkmen doesn't require high-tec weaponry. It's a question of time when the Syrian Army of Assad will join the Kurdish frontline.

Idem dito for the Golan heights, but this time it's the Hezbollah vs Al Nusra and what some people call 'the moderate' rebels. I expect some irritation from Israeli IDF.

Turkey will also be isolated and gets as per OP already irritated...

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1448447334.442604.jpg

In September 2013, 2 US ballistic missiles were fired from Spain and were heading to Damascus. The Russians intercepted one, and the other was guided and also neutralised above Mediterranean sea, just in front of Syrian coastline.

The Russians used 2 types of technologies in their missiles defensive system. NATO allies understood at that moment that Russian military technology was at least 15 years more advanced.

Citations and sources plse to this claim thx.

Cites and sources are requested for the obvious reasons.

1) There are right wing whack job media claims that have had Mossad stealing US Jupiter missiles that have made high power kiloton hits in Syria. Nothing on this of course has ever appeared in the MSM anywhere in any country of the world. There have been no statements of any such thing by the Assad government or by anyone in Syria of any stripe or cause.

http://www.johnkettler.com/nuclear-strikes-two-more-vs-syria/

2) There are rightwing whack job media that have reported Israel has in fact made an additional four missile attacks on Syria which no one in all of Syria seems to know of regardless of their position or cause in Syria. There is the link below however which states facts the lunar right has expanded of an actual event into things unrecognizable by anyone outside of the rightwingnutosphere.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-uses-17-tons-of-explosives-to-destroy-syrian-reactor/

3) Then there is the account presented in the post which rewrites fact and reality well beyond anything that actually did occur in the Med on September 3, 2013, in the vicinity of Israel and Syuia. However, nothing occurred that resembles the accounts presented in the post or by the rightwingnutosphere and its whack job media. Immediately below is the source of a wild account of events in the Med on the date, as claimed by the rightwingnutosphere media.

I will write a follow up post immediately after this post, in which i will discuss a composite realistic account of what likely occurred on September 3, 2013. It is however revealing of the nutosphere to check out the link below and before reading in my follow up post my best account of what actually did occur on September 3, 2013.

http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2013/09/russia-shot-down-two-us-missiles-fired.html

The MSM did make reports of the September 3, 2013 events which I shall cite in my post to immediately be written after this post is posted.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Publicus

[JHolmesJr]

The killer of the Russian pilots have been identified as a Turkish citizen Alparslan Çelik from Elazig who is the son of a Turkish mayor and not a Syrian Turkmen, but a member of Turkey's gray wolves.

Soon to be the late alparslan celik

[arjunadawn]

Clark, a one time democratic candidate for president, could would hardly be thought problematic for Obama. Yet, in this interview he very delicately reveals the underlying motivations and actions of some of these players, especially Turkey. These points have been raised repeatedly on TV by a number of posters, always then thought to be conspiratorial or fringe. I include the Clark interview here. Not a watershed of new information, but clearly he suggests the underlying motivations Turkey has to aid and abet DAESH. IMO, Turkey is the primary enabler of DAESH. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DecIAlW9t9o

[manarak]

The killer of the Russian pilots have been identified as a Turkish citizen Alparslan Çelik from Elazig who is the son of a Turkish mayor and not a Syrian Turkmen, but a member of Turkey's gray wolves.

Why am I not surprised.

[Publicus]

The first article is from the Times of Israel. The second article is from Reuters. The third article is from the Telegraph. They all report on missile firings of September 3, 2013 by Israel during the US preparations to bombard targets in Syria in response to Assad's use of chemical weapons..

It needs to be pointed out that none of the three discusses the possibility the unanounced missile launches were a sole action by Israel. No MSM anywhere in the West mention the possibility Israel acted alone. This is true despite the tensions in the region as the US had announced its intention to bombard Syrian military and government targets.

The US did in fact have five Aegis system guided missile destroyers in the Med the Red Sea. In the two locations, the Med and the Red Sea, the US had a total of nine warships accompanying the aircraft carrier USS Nimitz.

So there was some serious question of whether Israel had acted independently of the US instead of jointly with it. And that the US quickly covered for Israel by saying it had been a joint test. PM Benyamin Netanyahu subsequently said the unannounced and thus provocative and irresponsible firing of the missiles by Israel had been a long scheduled test.

What we do know is that after this wild incident by PM Netanyahu in the volatile situation the whole US plan to bombard Syria was called off due to the fear in Washington the situation was getting out of control.

Israel shoots test missile over sea, raising alarms

The Russian Defense Ministry reports successful launch of Sparrow target missile in joint drill with US, after Russia radar detects objects, triggering alert in skittish region.

Russia raised a brief alarm in the Middle East Tuesday after apparently detecting a joint Israel and US missile launch test in the Mediterranean.

Israel’s Defense Ministry confirmed that it carried out a successful trial involving a new type of Sparrow target missile, which was meant to test Israel’s missile tracking capabilities.

Russia had reported that two ballistic objects had been fired from the central Mediterranean to the eastern coast of the sea at 10:16 a.m. Moscow time, which is an hour ahead of Israel.

The Russian RIA news agency later said that the two objects had fallen into the sea.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/russia-says-ballistic-objects-fired-near-syria/

Unannounced Israel-U.S. missile test fuels jitters over Syria

JERUSALEM/MOSCOW (Reuters) - Israel tested a U.S.-backed missile system in the Mediterranean on Tuesday but did not announce the launch in advance, prompting a disclosure by Russia that kept the world on edge as the United States weighed an attack on Syria.

The morning launch was first reported by Moscow media that quoted Russian defense officials as saying two ballistic "objects" had been fired eastward from the center of the sea - roughly in the direction of Syria.

The news ruffled financial markets until Israel's Defence Ministry said that it, along with a Pentagon team, had carried out a test-launch of a Sparrow missile. The Sparrow, which simulates the long-range missiles of Syria and Iran, is used for target practice by Israel's U.S.-backed ballistic shield Arrow.

http://news.yahoo.com/russia-says-ballistic-objects-fired-mediterranean-090528639.html;_ylt=AwrSbDnH01VWukQAwwVXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEybzdtZGFzBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwM5BHZ0aWQDQjExNTFfMQRzZWMDc3I-

Missiles launched in Mediterranean towards Syrian coast, claims Russian defence ministry

Russia has claimed that its missile early warning system has detected the launch of two missiles from the central part of the Mediterranean Sea fired towards the Sea's eastern coastline

The Russian embassy in Syria said there was no sign of a missile attack or of explosions in Damascus. The Ministry of Defence in London confirmed that the missiles were not British.

Russia had earlier criticised the United States on Tuesday for sending warships close to Syria, saying the deployments would exacerbate tension as Washington prepares for a possible military strike.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10282788/Missiles-launched-in-Mediterranean-towards-Syrian-coast-claims-Russian-defence-ministry.html

It is therefore the case that the claims by the poster that Russia destroyed US missiles fired from Spain at Damascus is straight out of the rightwingnutosphere.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Publicus

[smedly]

look - the bottom line is simple - Russia has an agenda that doesn't fit with Turkey - the US - The UK - The EU - The french, their agenda doesn't fit with anyone in the west, best thing to do now is for the west to tell them to butt out unles they are willing to get with the program........

Get with the program or (deleted) (deleted)

If they still don't get it then some ground to air might nudge them a little

There is no room for a rogue Putin in the ME........either conform or .............boom

[kiwikeith]

So what would you do if you were Putin right now ?

My prediction

IMO the most obvious step would be to provide fighter escorts for the bombers, so I think that Russia will now provide each SU 24/34 with a couple of Mig's to protect them, they may even cross into Turkey airspace to provoke a confrontation, it would be a bold step but I wouldn't put it beyong Putin to do such a thing, it would also be a very serious escalation

The esculator has already struck, tha.t the sicko Turks that help ISIS buy blackmarket trading in oil and running guns and reinforcements across the border to ISIS.

[Scott]

You be assured that that oil is not being bought only by the Turks. The oil goes across all the bordering countries and is sold cheaper than the oil being pumped, thus a profit is made.

[geriatrickid]

America has had planes shot down for the same action , Pilots not going around pieces of land like fingers, trying to go across, so it's not just Russia who tends to push its bets.

Is that so? Can you provide some specific examples with conditions similar to this?

[Scott]

There was a long post about US military incidents in which aircraft was lost. It was removed as it is off-topic. I think in this thread we need to stay a little more focused on this particular incident. I don't think we need to go back to Gary Powers incident and work our way forward. It would be off-topic.

If posters wish to draw comparisons, it is acceptable, but please make sure it is relevant to the topic at hand.