Putin orders sanctions against Turkey after downing of jet

[rooster59]

Putin orders sanctions against Turkey after downing of jet

SUZAN FRASER, Associated Press
JIM HEINTZ, Associated Press


ANKARA, Turkey (AP) — Russian President Vladimir Putin on Saturday called for sanctions against Turkey, following the downing this week by Turkey of a Russian warplane.

The decree published on the Kremlin's website Saturday came hours after Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan had voiced regret over the incident, saying his country was "truly saddened" by the event and wished it hadn't occurred.

It includes a ban on some goods and forbids extensions of labor contracts for Turks working in Russia as of Jan. 1. It doesn't specify what goods are to be banned or give other details, but it also calls for ending chartered flights from Russia to Turkey and for Russian tourism companies to stop selling vacation packages that would include a stay in Turkey.

Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev earlier in the week had ordered his cabinet to develop a list of goods to be sanctioned.

Putin's decree also calls for ending visa-free travel between Russia and Turkey and orders the tightening of control over Turkish air carriers in Russia "for security reasons." The decree was issued "to protect Russian citizens from crimes," a Kremlin statement said.

Erdogan's expression of regret Saturday was the first since Tuesday's incident in which Turkish F-16 jets shot down the Russian jet on grounds that it had violated Turkey's airspace despite repeated warnings to change course. It was the first time in half a century that a NATO member shot down a Russian plane and drew a harsh response from Moscow.

"We are truly saddened by this incident," Erdogan said. "We wish it hadn't happened as such, but unfortunately such a thing has happened. I hope that something like this doesn't occur again."

Addressing supporters in the western city of Balikesir, Erdogan said neither country should allow the incident to escalate and take a destructive form that would lead to "saddening consequences."

He renewed a call for a meeting with Putin on the sidelines of a climate conference in Paris next week, saying it would be an opportunity to overcome tensions.

Erdogan's friendly overture however, came after he again vigorously defended Turkey's action and criticized Russia for its operations in Syria.

"If we allow our sovereign rights to be violated ... then the territory would no longer be our territory," Erdogan said.

Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu also said he hoped a meeting between Erdogan and Putin would take place in Paris.

"In such situations it is important to keep the channels of communication open," he said.

Putin has denounced the Turkish action as a "treacherous stab in the back," and has insisted that the plane was downed over Syrian territory in violation of international law. He has also refused to take telephone calls from Erdogan. Putin's foreign affairs adviser, Yuri Ushakov, said Friday that the Kremlin had received Erdogan's request for a meeting, but wouldn't say whether such a meeting is possible.

Asked why Putin hasn't picked up the phone to respond to Erdogan's two phone calls, he said that "we have seen that the Turkish side hasn't been ready to offer an elementary apology over the plane incident."

After the incident, Russia deployed long-range S-400 air defense missile systems to a Russian air base in Syria just 50 kilometers (30 miles) south of the border with Turkey to help protect Russian warplanes, and the Russian military warned it would shoot down any aerial target that would pose a potential threat to its planes.

On Saturday Turkey issued a travel warning urging its nationals to delay non-urgent and unnecessary travel to Russia, saying Turkish travelers were facing "problems" in the country. It said Turks should delay travel plans until "the situation becomes clear."

-- (c) Associated Press 2015-11-29

[craigt3365]

After the incident, Russia deployed long-range S-400 air defense missile systems to a Russian air base in Syria just 50 kilometers (30 miles) south of the border with Turkey to help protect Russian warplanes, and the Russian military warned it would shoot down any aerial target that would pose a potential threat to its planes.

Does this include protecting Russian warplanes that violate Turkey's airspace??? I sure hope they don't shoot down a Turkish or coalition plane with this system. We might end up with WWIII. Thanks Russia.

[h90]

After the incident, Russia deployed long-range S-400 air defense missile systems to a Russian air base in Syria just 50 kilometers (30 miles) south of the border with Turkey to help protect Russian warplanes, and the Russian military warned it would shoot down any aerial target that would pose a potential threat to its planes.

Does this include protecting Russian warplanes that violate Turkey's airspace??? I sure hope they don't shoot down a Turkish or coalition plane with this system. We might end up with WWIII. Thanks Russia.

Thanks Russia? It was not Russia who started all that mess, and I prefer Russia cleaning it up, than no one is doing it.

[craigt3365]

After the incident, Russia deployed long-range S-400 air defense missile systems to a Russian air base in Syria just 50 kilometers (30 miles) south of the border with Turkey to help protect Russian warplanes, and the Russian military warned it would shoot down any aerial target that would pose a potential threat to its planes.

Does this include protecting Russian warplanes that violate Turkey's airspace??? I sure hope they don't shoot down a Turkish or coalition plane with this system. We might end up with WWIII. Thanks Russia.

Thanks Russia? It was not Russia who started all that mess, and I prefer Russia cleaning it up, than no one is doing it.

The mess was started by a brutal dictator that murdered his own people. And was supported by Russia. So in a way, yes, Russia helped start this.

[from the home of CC]

Main reason Russia wanted to keep Assad is because they want to keep their Middle Eastern base at Tartus, it's just strategy.

[Andaman Al]

After the incident, Russia deployed long-range S-400 air defense missile systems to a Russian air base in Syria just 50 kilometers (30 miles) south of the border with Turkey to help protect Russian warplanes, and the Russian military warned it would shoot down any aerial target that would pose a potential threat to its planes.

Does this include protecting Russian warplanes that violate Turkey's airspace??? I sure hope they don't shoot down a Turkish or coalition plane with this system. We might end up with WWIII. Thanks Russia.

Thanks Russia? It was not Russia who started all that mess, and I prefer Russia cleaning it up, than no one is doing it.

The mess was started by a brutal dictator that murdered his own people. And was supported by Russia. So in a way, yes, Russia helped start this.

Would you be so kind as to state which incidents you refer to of the 'brutal Dictator', murdering his own people.? Thank you.

[theguyfromanotherforum]

After the incident, Russia deployed long-range S-400 air defense missile systems to a Russian air base in Syria just 50 kilometers (30 miles) south of the border with Turkey to help protect Russian warplanes, and the Russian military warned it would shoot down any aerial target that would pose a potential threat to its planes.

Does this include protecting Russian warplanes that violate Turkey's airspace??? I sure hope they don't shoot down a Turkish or coalition plane with this system. We might end up with WWIII. Thanks Russia.

Thanks Russia? It was not Russia who started all that mess, and I prefer Russia cleaning it up, than no one is doing it.

The mess was started by a brutal dictator that murdered his own people. And was supported by Russia. So in a way, yes, Russia helped start this.

I like how Americans have this fake concern about dictators yet they keep supporting terrorist groups and scummy countries like Saudi Arabia.

[Publicus]

Main reason Russia wanted to keep Assad is because they want to keep their Middle Eastern base at Tartus, it's just strategy.

There's no one single reason on itself alone.

Yet shi everything does go to the top, which brings us to Assad.

Everybody divides for or against him. Which puts Putin on the absolute wrong side from where this post is made.

Putin's 'sanctions' against Turkey are putting Russia further in to the hole it's already in. GDP this year is minus 5 percent. With these 'sanctions' Putin is driving it toward 6 percent even though only several weeks remain in 2015. Next year maybe Putin will make it minus 7%.

Before EU-Nato sanctions against Russia over Ukraine Putin had been budgeting for the government based on oil at $100 a barrel. Now Putin is budgeting predicated on oil at $50 a barrel. That is lopping 50% off the government's budget from energy sources, which are 80% of revenue. And radically so, year on year.

Next year Putin will probably need to slash 50% month on month. The ruble is a rubble with no light at the end of that tunnel either.

Putin is a strategic idiot and a worse leader. Putin fanboyz need to remember Putin never played chess against anyone he couldn't put in jail. Or have shot to death outside the Kremlin. Which is why Erdogan has learned to get Putin to shake with both his hands.

[Harsh Jones]

After the incident, Russia deployed long-range S-400 air defense missile systems to a Russian air base in Syria just 50 kilometers (30 miles) south of the border with Turkey to help protect Russian warplanes, and the Russian military warned it would shoot down any aerial target that would pose a potential threat to its planes.

Does this include protecting Russian warplanes that violate Turkey's airspace??? I sure hope they don't shoot down a Turkish or coalition plane with this system. We might end up with WWIII. Thanks Russia.

It will aid in encouraging Turkey to follow international protocols.

[Harsh Jones]

Main reason Russia wanted to keep Assad is because they want to keep their Middle Eastern base at Tartus, it's just strategy.

There's no one single reason on itself alone.

Yet shi everything does go to the top, which brings us to Assad.

Everybody divides for or against him. Which puts Putin on the absolute wrong side from where this post is made.

Putin's 'sanctions' against Turkey are putting Russia further in to the hole it's already in. GDP this year is minus 5 percent. With these 'sanctions' Putin is driving it toward 6 percent even though only several weeks remain in 2015. Next year maybe Putin will make it minus 7%.

Before EU-Nato sanctions against Russia over Ukraine Putin had been budgeting for the government based on oil at $100 a barrel. Now Putin is budgeting predicated on oil at $50 a barrel. That is lopping 50% off the government's budget from energy sources, which are 80% of revenue. And radically so, year on year.

Next year Putin will probably need to slash 50% month on month. The ruble is a rubble with no light at the end of that tunnel either.

Putin is a strategic idiot and a worse leader. Putin fanboyz need to remember Putin never played chess against anyone he couldn't put in jail. Or have shot to death outside the Kremlin. Which is why Erdogan has learned to get Putin to shake with both his hands.

3 Signs the Russian Economy Is Recovering - Investopedia

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[expatbrit]

The removal of "brutal dictators" in the Middle East has been demonstrably successful in facilitating the brutal spread of terrorism !

Removing Assad will result in handing yet more territory to truly evil people.

[craigt3365]

Would you be so kind as to state which incidents you refer to of the 'brutal Dictator', murdering his own people.? Thank you.

Easy to find using Google. But here's just a few. Also, research his father. Another bad one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashar_al-Assad#War_crimes_and_crimes_against_humanity

http://news.yahoo.com/france-opens-war-crimes-inquiry-against-assad-regime-222026549.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_violations_during_the_Syrian_Civil_War

As for those who thought Islamist radicals were created by the US over the past few years, read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafez_al-Assad#Events

The final showdown, the Hama massacre, took place in February 1982^%5B96%5D when the government crushed the uprising.^%5B97%5D Helicopter gunships, bulldozers and artillery bombardment razed the city, killing thousands of people

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamist_uprising_in_Syria

The Islamist uprising in Syria were a series of revolts and armed insurgency by Sunni Islamists, mainly members of the Muslim Brotherhood from 1976 until 1982. The uprising was aimed against the authority of the secular Ba'ath Party-controlled government of Syria, in what has been called a "long campaign of terror".[4] During the violent events Islamists attacked both civilians and off-duty military personnel, and civilians were also killed in retaliatory strike by security forces. The uprising had reached its climax in the 1982 Hama Islamic uprising.[5]

[craigt3365]

After the incident, Russia deployed long-range S-400 air defense missile systems to a Russian air base in Syria just 50 kilometers (30 miles) south of the border with Turkey to help protect Russian warplanes, and the Russian military warned it would shoot down any aerial target that would pose a potential threat to its planes.

Does this include protecting Russian warplanes that violate Turkey's airspace??? I sure hope they don't shoot down a Turkish or coalition plane with this system. We might end up with WWIII. Thanks Russia.

It will aid in encouraging Turkey to follow international protocols.

Perhaps Russia will follow them also? Seems to be that's what caused this. A violation of another country's sovereign airspace. BS politics aside.

[johna]

After the incident, Russia deployed long-range S-400 air defense missile systems to a Russian air base in Syria just 50 kilometers (30 miles) south of the border with Turkey to help protect Russian warplanes, and the Russian military warned it would shoot down any aerial target that would pose a potential threat to its planes.

Does this include protecting Russian warplanes that violate Turkey's airspace??? I sure hope they don't shoot down a Turkish or coalition plane with this system. We might end up with WWIII. Thanks Russia.

Thanks Russia? It was not Russia who started all that mess, and I prefer Russia cleaning it up, than no one is doing it.

The mess was started by a brutal dictator that murdered his own people. And was supported by Russia. So in a way, yes, Russia helped start this.

No it all started when we decided to invade Iraq over non existent WMD.

[b4n9]

The Russians invaded Turkish airspace and got what they deserved. Bang Bang!!

[craigt3365]

Johna:Hmmm....you didn't read about the uprisings in Syria some 40 years ago? Wasn't that before Iraq and WMD? But yes, that was a horrible error and we're paying for it now.

[FangFerang]

After the incident, Russia deployed long-range S-400 air defense missile systems to a Russian air base in Syria just 50 kilometers (30 miles) south of the border with Turkey to help protect Russian warplanes, and the Russian military warned it would shoot down any aerial target that would pose a potential threat to its planes.

Does this include protecting Russian warplanes that violate Turkey's airspace??? I sure hope they don't shoot down a Turkish or coalition plane with this system. We might end up with WWIII. Thanks Russia.

Thanks Russia? It was not Russia who started all that mess, and I prefer Russia cleaning it up, than no one is doing it.

The mess was started by a brutal dictator that murdered his own people. And was supported by Russia. So in a way, yes, Russia helped start this.

The US supports brutal dictators all over the world--from the deposed Shah of Iran to the current House of Saud. The US merely wanted toi unseat Assad because he is aligned with Russia, and the US wants to dominate the region for purely financial reasons. That is what they are: purely financial reasons. If altruism played any role in it, we would have troops in half of Africa. We don't. We only get altruistic when there is a lot of money on the table. The rest of the time....we look the other way.

[Ulic]

After the incident, Russia deployed long-range S-400 air defense missile systems to a Russian air base in Syria just 50 kilometers (30 miles) south of the border with Turkey to help protect Russian warplanes, and the Russian military warned it would shoot down any aerial target that would pose a potential threat to its planes.

Does this include protecting Russian warplanes that violate Turkey's airspace??? I sure hope they don't shoot down a Turkish or coalition plane with this system. We might end up with WWIII. Thanks Russia.

The Turks say the plane crossed into Turkish air space, the Russians say they did not, The

Americans who do know to the meter the location of all planes are strangely silent. When they

give a definitive answer with the proof, then we will know. As for Turkey shooting down a plane

that violates air space for 17 seconds (there numbers, if you believe them) they should announce

they were wrong to complain when Syria shot down a Turkish plane for violating Syrian air

space and Syria made the right decision in downing the Turkish plane. That is if they really

believe they did the right thing. You can't have it both ways. If it was wrong a couple of years

ago (which I believe it was) it is wrong now.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Ulic

[GeorgesAbitbol]

Does this include protecting Russian warplanes that violate Turkey's airspace??? I sure hope they don't shoot down a Turkish or coalition plane with this system. We might end up with WWIII. Thanks Russia.

Thanks Russia? It was not Russia who started all that mess, and I prefer Russia cleaning it up, than no one is doing it.

The mess was started by a brutal dictator that murdered his own people. And was supported by Russia. So in a way, yes, Russia helped start this.

The US supports brutal dictators all over the world--from the deposed Shah of Iran to the current House of Saud. The US merely wanted toi unseat Assad because he is aligned with Russia, and the US wants to dominate the region for purely financial reasons. That is what they are: purely financial reasons. If altruism played any role in it, we would have troops in half of Africa. We don't. We only get altruistic when there is a lot of money on the table. The rest of the time....we look the other way.

You are right,

And not a lot of occidental newspapers write about the pipeline the USA and Europe would like to have in Syria...a pipeline Assad doesn't want as it would lessen the Europe needs of Russian Oil and Gas...

That's the new name for US/Europe backed pipeline : freedom

[Harsh Jones]

After the incident, Russia deployed long-range S-400 air defense missile systems to a Russian air base in Syria just 50 kilometers (30 miles) south of the border with Turkey to help protect Russian warplanes, and the Russian military warned it would shoot down any aerial target that would pose a potential threat to its planes.

Does this include protecting Russian warplanes that violate Turkey's airspace??? I sure hope they don't shoot down a Turkish or coalition plane with this system. We might end up with WWIII. Thanks Russia.

It will aid in encouraging Turkey to follow international protocols.

Perhaps Russia will follow them also? Seems to be that's what caused this. A violation of another country's sovereign airspace. BS politics aside.

Nope. Russia caused nothing. It was a little mistake. The exact same thing happened in Israel and Israel did not bomb the Russian jet out of the sky

[Harsh Jones]

The Russians invaded Turkish airspace and got what they deserved. Bang Bang!!

Israel defense minister

Ya’alon: Russian jet recently breached our airspace, wasn’t shot down

Defense minister says open coordination channel with Putin’s military prevents mistakes

http://www.timesofisrael.com/yaalon-...not-shot-down/

[Publicus]

It will aid in encouraging Turkey to follow international protocols.

Perhaps Russia will follow them also? Seems to be that's what caused this. A violation of another country's sovereign airspace. BS politics aside.

Nope. Russia caused nothing. It was a little mistake. The exact same thing happened in Israel and Israel did not bomb the Russian jet out of the sky

It did last year. IDF blew a Sukhoi 24 right out of the sky. It had been flown in to Israel air space by the Syrian Air Force and pilot. The Su-24. The Russian fighter jet that keeps getting blown out of the sky by US made fighter jets used by other allied ME governments.

Israel is being more forgiving of Putin because Putin assured Netanyahu face to face he means no harm to Israel, relative to Iran especially. Neither is Putin bombing Jews at the Israeli border. Putin is indeed bombing Turkmen at the Turkey border.

Putin is trying to boss Erdogan to leave Syria to Russia. Erdogan won't have any of it from Putin. As far as Erdogan is concerned Putin needs to go home. Putin has grossly misjudged Erdogan and Turkey's vital interests in its own back yard. The only way for Putin to prevail is to twist Erdogan's arm until it breaks. Vlad doesn't think about the consequences of anything.

[craigt3365]

Nope. Russia caused nothing. It was a little mistake. The exact same thing happened in Israel and Israel did not bomb the Russian jet out of the sky

Supposedly, Russia was coordinating with Israel on their flight plans. Seems Russia made a little mistake and forgot to coordinate with Turkey. Just a little mistake. With catastrophic consequences. Oh, and Russia isn't bombing Israel's allies like they are doing with Turkey. Another little mistake by not only bombing ISIS?

[Srikcir]

Russia is no stranger to "stabs in the back."

Witness post-WWII Russian invasions of Georgia, Ukraine and Chechen Republic of Ichkeria. Turkey's downing of a Russian warplane in its airspace aftre numerous warnings is hardly a fair comparison.

“Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.” - Leo Tolstoy

[Publicus]

Nope. Russia caused nothing. It was a little mistake. The exact same thing happened in Israel and Israel did not bomb the Russian jet out of the sky

Supposedly, Russia was coordinating with Israel on their flight plans. Seems Russia made a little mistake and forgot to coordinate with Turkey. Just a little mistake. With catastrophic consequences. Oh, and Russia isn't bombing Israel's allies like they are doing with Turkey. Another little mistake by not only bombing ISIS?

Hey Harsh, take a deep breath.

There is a story to the shootdown that needs to be presented, same as anything else. To find out what happened and why.

Erdogan has not apologised because apologising is the same as allowing Putin to run free to impose his demented will. Either one produces the same result, which is a severely diminished Turkey. The bottom line for the always up tight Erdogan is that there are more allies, security, stability, prosperity, global clout in Nato and with Nato countries then there is with Russia.

Erdogan just got 3 billion euros from the EU and there's more where that came from. Putin is meanwhile doing everything he can think to do to reduce Turkey GDP. CCP China is not a player in this. The Brics have no mortar.

After Assad’s forces downed a Turkish RF-4 reconnaissance plane over the Mediterranean in June 2012, Ankara implemented new rules of engagement against Damascus. For the past three-and-a-half years, Turkey has brought down more than half a dozen Syrian fighter jets, helicopters and UAVs for allegedly violating its airspace.

The latest incident is a culmination of that tug-of-war and Turkey’s desire to help its clients in Syria. Following the arrival of the Russian air contingent on Syria’s Mediterranean coast in September 2015, one Russian aircraft briefly violated Turkish airspace, a Syrian MiG-29 locked on Turkish F-16s flying inside Turkey and the Turks shot down what is believed to be a Russian-made UAV within their territory on October 16.

During these episodes, Russian Air Force assets meant to show the Turks that their support for anti-Assad rebels was not welcome. For Turkey, putting pressure on Russian air operations in Syria was a way to reassure the rebel groups under its aegis to keep fighting the Assad regime.

http://nationalinter...ould-fear-14447

[Andaman Al]

Would you be so kind as to state which incidents you refer to of the 'brutal Dictator', murdering his own people.? Thank you.

Easy to find using Google. But here's just a few. Also, research his father. Another bad one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashar_al-Assad#War_crimes_and_crimes_against_humanity

http://news.yahoo.com/france-opens-war-crimes-inquiry-against-assad-regime-222026549.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_violations_during_the_Syrian_Civil_War

As for those who thought Islamist radicals were created by the US over the past few years, read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafez_al-Assad#Events

The final showdown, the Hama massacre, took place in February 1982^%5B96%5D when the government crushed the uprising.^%5B97%5D Helicopter gunships, bulldozers and artillery bombardment razed the city, killing thousands of people

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamist_uprising_in_Syria

The Islamist uprising in Syria were a series of revolts and armed insurgency by Sunni Islamists, mainly members of the Muslim Brotherhood from 1976 until 1982. The uprising was aimed against the authority of the secular Ba'ath Party-controlled government of Syria, in what has been called a "long campaign of terror".[4] During the violent events Islamists attacked both civilians and off-duty military personnel, and civilians were also killed in retaliatory strike by security forces. The uprising had reached its climax in the 1982 Hama Islamic uprising.[5]

So in a conflict surrounded by uncertainty and propaganda you resort to quoting wiki?

How about you look on google for the 'not so easy' to find sources. You will find transcripts from CNN news bullitens immediately on the death of Assad's Father with Ambassadors and statesmen (from the USA) alike saying what a great influence he was in the Middle East. Clinton and Madeleine Albright saying what a great charismatic leader he was who was simply a difficult and determined negotiator. The uprising which he had to quash, swiftly and brutally was an uprising of the Muslim Brotherhood, so thank goodness he did. In the ensuing battle, many civilians died. You call these brutal murders, yet when the USA and UK go into Iraq it is an unfortunate case of 'collateral damage'. He killed 10k and we killed a million plus and counting, he was a brutal dictator and we are freedom fighters Try reading media accounts at the time from these incidents you quote and see what truth there is in the current tales we are fed, instead of reading Wiki with its manufactured articles, designed to make us all hate.

As for the current Assad using chemical weapons on his own people - not a chance. Why would he even think of it when he has enough conventional weapons to do the job of killing them and when he knows that the international community considers the use of chemical weapons such a heinous crime. The only thing it would have done is to aid in expediting his downfall and getting rid of what global support he still had during the invasion by USA and NATO of yet more sovereign territory. Assad was a friend of the West until 6 years ago, but everyone forgets that and simply listens to the propaganda and BS we have been fed for 5 years, trying to justify how we have contributed directly to the deaths of millions of Syrians, the displacement of many millions more and the ruination of one of the moderate stabalising influences in the Middle East. Syria is now an inconvenience, it holds great military strategic value and has resources and land which we want. And yes it has been said before, the US and EU want the pipeline.

But hey, lets not let the truth get in the way of a useful story.

Many will say that it is likely Assad supported Palestine and Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist group to the West. So we now demonise him, yet we in the West are very happy to fund and arm an even more deadly group of mercenaries and terrorists ISIS and the Rebel Army in Syria. Just as we recruited Al Qaida and armed them to do our dirty work in Libya. The USA, UK and most of Europe have no moral compass when it comes to the issues in the Middle East. We have killed more civilians in Iraq and Syria than Hussein and Assad could have done in five life times.

Do these issues not make you simply yearn for more objective and questioning media sources than whatever Fox or the Murdochs throw at us? In the USA there are 6 media corporations that control the news and current affairs fed to 280 Million Americans, then we have the same situation per capita in the UK and Europe. The media control whatever they want, and the camera even lies now. Go and find the real truth, it's out there somewhere, and avoid manufactured media, it's like fast, processed food, it's bad for you but we just find it easier to consume than going to the market, buying some stuff and spending an hour cooking our own making sure we know what we get. We are what we eat, we believe what we read.

I believe NOTHING that comes from the mouths of any Government on the planet. I simply use what they say to point me in the right direction to find out what is really happening.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Andaman Al

[Chicog]

You will find transcripts from CNN news bullitens immediately on the death of Assad's Father with Ambassadors and statesmen (from the USA) alike saying what a great influence he was in the Middle East. Clinton and Madeleine Albright saying what a great charismatic leader he was who was simply a difficult and determined negotiator.

Of course they did, because he toed the party line when it came to letting Israel keep the Golan Heights, and his son didn't make any effort to get them back either.

"Determined negotiator", if that's what you call someone who executes and buries a town of 30,000 people, yeah that's pretty determined, but I wouldn't call it negotiation.

[Andaman Al]

You will find transcripts from CNN news bullitens immediately on the death of Assad's Father with Ambassadors and statesmen (from the USA) alike saying what a great influence he was in the Middle East. Clinton and Madeleine Albright saying what a great charismatic leader he was who was simply a difficult and determined negotiator.

Of course they did, because he toed the party line when it came to letting Israel keep the Golan Heights, and his son didn't make any effort to get them back either.

"Determined negotiator", if that's what you call someone who executes and buries a town of 30,000 people, yeah that's pretty determined, but I wouldn't call it negotiation.

What do you call us then that have executed and buried more than 40 times that amount?

I never called him a 'determined negotiator', that was Clinton, and Sec Albright. A quick check of the facts will help. Clue - stay away from Wiki

[Harsh Jones]

It will aid in encouraging Turkey to follow international protocols.

Perhaps Russia will follow them also? Seems to be that's what caused this. A violation of another country's sovereign airspace. BS politics aside.

Nope. Russia caused nothing. It was a little mistake. The exact same thing happened in Israel and Israel did not bomb the Russian jet out of the sky

It did last year. IDF blew a Sukhoi 24 right out of the sky. It had been flown in to Israel air space by the Syrian Air Force and pilot. The Su-24. The Russian fighter jet that keeps getting blown out of the sky by US made fighter jets used by other allied ME governments.

Israel is being more forgiving of Putin because Putin assured Netanyahu face to face he means no harm to Israel, relative to Iran especially. Neither is Putin bombing Jews at the Israeli border. Putin is indeed bombing Turkmen at the Turkey border.

Putin is trying to boss Erdogan to leave Syria to Russia. Erdogan won't have any of it from Putin. As far as Erdogan is concerned Putin needs to go home. Putin has grossly misjudged Erdogan and Turkey's vital interests in its own back yard. The only way for Putin to prevail is to twist Erdogan's arm until it breaks. Vlad doesn't think about the consequences of anything.

Yes it is true perhaps that Russia misjudged Turkeys interest in working directly with ISIS to support ISIS. I am sure the French and UK have misjudged this too.

Eventually some American made shoulder fired anti aircraft guns will be taking down French and UK jets. That will be a lot to be proud of.

[Harsh Jones]

Nope. Russia caused nothing. It was a little mistake. The exact same thing happened in Israel and Israel did not bomb the Russian jet out of the sky

Supposedly, Russia was coordinating with Israel on their flight plans. Seems Russia made a little mistake and forgot to coordinate with Turkey. Just a little mistake. With catastrophic consequences. Oh, and Russia isn't bombing Israel's allies like they are doing with Turkey. Another little mistake by not only bombing ISIS?

ISIS is Turkeys ally. Russia gave their flight path coordinates to the US and France (NATO) Turkey is part of NATO. So the Turks had the flight paths.