Long Stays In Thailand With Multiple Passports

[onebir]

i'm a 37 year old male with british and irish passports. i've been thinking about spending long periods in thailand.

post the new regulations it occurred to me i could try these schemes:

a) come in (with a stamp on entry) using passport A, do three border runs, then do the same thing with passport B. rinse and repeat

b ) apply for a triple entry tourist visa using passport A, do 3 visa runs (every 60 days) then repeat with passport B (would i have to return to UK/Eire for the second application?)

c) some combination of a) and b )

1) would these schemes work? which embassies/consulates/border post should i go to maximise my chances? and would i need to avoid going through the same offices using different passports?

2) would these schemes be legal? if i use different passports to obtain visas, am i effectively a different legal person, and therefore entitled to two 90 day (ie 3 x 30day ) stays in the country during each 6 month period?

thanks!

Edited October 9, 2006 by onebir

[satu]

If any foreigner will do the same in your home country he will go to jail

respect the law in thailand

[onebir]

If any foreigner will do the same in your home country he will go to jail

respect the law in thailand

that's why i asked question 2!!! i have every intention of respecting thai laws, but if they imply that i'm a different legal person depending on which citizenship i use to enter the country, why shouldn't i make use of that?

[naka]

Seems to me you are asking the wrong questions.

You would be better off asking.

1. What is Thailand's deportation process ?

2. How long will I spend in jail before being deported ?

3. What's it like in a Thai jail ?

Naka.

[satu]

You are still the same person, not important you have one or ten different passports

and by the way the immigratin will use fingerprints on the airports to indenticate people like you in the future

[onebir]

Seems to me you are asking the wrong questions.

You would be better off asking.

1. What is Thailand's deportation process ?

2. How long will I spend in jail before being deported ?

3. What's it like in a Thai jail ?

Naka.

doesn't sound too positive... i think i'd better get professional legal advice before trying this then!

but under some legal systems one person CAN be treated as different legal persons under certain circumstances, and i thought it was worth checking... interested to hear what sunbelt asia have to say about this!

Edited October 9, 2006 by onebir

[johnnyk]

If they start using biometric ID at the airport you will be in the <deleted>.

Passport is paper, paper is not a person.

Biometric info is you and only you, paper notwithstanding.

Up to you and no whinging about the monkey house if you get put away.

[onebir]

Passport is paper, paper is not a person.

Biometric info is you and only you, paper notwithstanding.

obviously with biometrics they'd know the same physical person had come in twice. my question was subtler - is onebir(uk citizen) the same legal person as onebir(eire citizen) under thai immigration law. the knee-jerk answer may not the the correct legal answer. and i guess even if the immigration law does allow the loophole, the officials may not like it...

dawoofer - thanks for the helpful suggestion. if it's legal, i guess it would also be perfectly legal to switch passports the following year... which should cut down chances of getting turned down for the multi-entry tourist visa (if that ever happens)

[ovenman]

One of the resident gurus please correct me if I am wrong but I've always been under the impression that what the immigrations computer tracks is the entrant's name and birth date, not the passport number. With this being the case, it really doesn't matter how many passports a particular traveler uses as the authorities are tracking John Smith, born 01 January 1966, and this information does not change from passport to passport.

[onebir]

With this being the case, it really doesn't matter how many passports a particular traveler uses as the authorities are tracking John Smith, born 01 January 1966, and this information does not change from passport to passport.

if they just go by name and birth date, people with common names could get in a lot of trouble without actually doing anything wrong...

it'd create massive problems for chinese tourists in particular - transliterated into the roman alphabet, there aren't that many chinese surnames, and lots of popular first names, and obviously loads of people...

Edited October 9, 2006 by onebir

[johnnyk]

Passport is paper, paper is not a person.

Biometric info is you and only you, paper notwithstanding.

obviously with biometrics they'd know the same physical person had come in twice. my question was subtler - is onebir(uk citizen) the same legal person as onebir(eire citizen) under thai immigration law. the knee-jerk answer may not the the correct legal answer. and i guess even if the immigration law does allow the loophole, the officials may not like it...

dawoofer - thanks for the helpful suggestion. if it's legal, i guess it would also be perfectly legal to switch passports the following year... which should cut down chances of getting turned down for the multi-entry tourist visa (if that ever happens)

With biometrics and powerful IT they would know and the point is they would probably invite you to be their guest for awhile.

I suspect they are not interested in the legal angles and legalistic hair-splitting but are more interested in real people trying to pull fast ones and putting their physical bodies, as opposed to their 'legal' bodies, in the hoosegow.

Of course, you could always hire Thai legal eagles to help you discuss the 'legal' ramifications while you rot in the BKK Hilton. I have two passports also and there is no way I would try it. The risk is way too great and they have no obligation to be nice.

I tried a similar legal dodge many years ago when the USA was deporting me.

I told them it was my right to be sent back to my country of birth and whose citizenship/passport I held. Expecting a free trip to England, I waited for 6 weeks in a US jail while they got on to the UK about it.

Guess what? Though I was a UK citizen w/passport HM Government saw I had emigrated to Canada as an infant and turned my file over to Canada. For my cheekiness I got to spend an extra 6 weeks behind bars while they took their sweet time doing the paperwork.

'Legally' speaking I suppose I was correct.

I was also in jail.

Anyway, up to you.

[onebir]

With biometrics and powerful IT they would know and the point is they would probably invite you to be their guest for awhile.

I suspect they are not interested in the legal angles and legalistic hair-splitting but are more interested in real people trying to pull fast ones and putting their physical bodies, as opposed to their 'legal' bodies, in the hoosegow.

Of course, you could always hire Thai legal eagles to help you discuss the 'legal' ramifications while you rot in the BKK Hilton. I have two passports also and there is no way I would try it. The risk is way too great and they have no obligation to be nice.

I tried a similar legal dodge many years ago when the USA was deporting me...

OK - thanks for the information, johnnyk. you have much more experience of thai immigration officials than my zero, so i have to give what you say a lot of weight.

i'd just like to mention one other example though: israeli citizens aren't allowed into malaysia, but people with dual nationality entering on their non-israeli passports have no problems. perhaps this is because they're entering in their capacity as non-israelis citizens. perhaps it's because there's no diplomatic relationship between malaysia and israel, and thus no way for the malaysian immigration officials to find out who's an israeli citizen...

[johnnyk]

Actually, I have no experience w/Thai immigration officials.

I simply relate my own experience from a long time ago as it is a bit similar in that I was trying to pull a fiddle.

With regard to the Israel-Malaysia thing, its not the same as you want to do. You can enter on any valid passport you like, its the going out and coming back to dodge the regs that they may frown on.

What would oyu say to them if they did a biometric check and it came up that you were person xxx with other passport yyy?

They might just say, "Please come with us now."

Anyway, up to you.

[Old Croc]

I can't say for sure about Thailand, but computer systems at countries entry points normally store movement data under passengers name and dob, and they cross match with passport no's and visa no's if appropriate.

If you legally change your name you would have to present this documentation when applying for a passport in the new name. The passport office will have both names recorded. Some countries exchange passport information.

[johnnyk]

True, and with more and more powerful IT systems it is getting easier all the time to store and share info.

Many many govt's swap this kind of info particularly since 9/11.

And many countries ask on their p-port applications if you hold another passport, what # and where/when issued.

Those digicams at the immigration desk aren't just for family albums either.

1984 arrived a lot more than 20 years ago.

[midas]

onebir it would be interesting to get some comments from Sunbelt on this issue.

I am not sure if what has been said in some of these replies is 100% correct ?

For example - like you I would have thought that each travel document

would give you separate rights and obligations ?

[crocodilexp]

There is a range of things you could do with dual passports -- some could get you in trouble, while some could not.

Here are the basic options I can think of:

BAD (Clear violation of regulations, easy to get caught):

- Getting 3x30 days VOA on passport A, then 3x30 days VOA on passport B (and repeat).

- Getting blacklisted on passport A, entering on passport B.

GOOD

- Applying for a tourist visa on passport B, when you've for some reason used passport A to the max. For instance, maxed out on VOA, have too many consecutive tourist visas (perhaps with the nice stamp saying you might not get one next time)... There is nothing illegal or fishy about prefering to use a different passport. The forms don't ask you to disclose all citizenships, you're not lying to them. If they figure it out, the worst that can happen is that they can refuse your visa on passport B (supposedly, they would have done this anyway on A). Of course, you'd want to be somewhat smart and apply at a different consulate than one that usually handled your passport A, and have sensible travel plans (e.g. enter Singapore on passport B if you're asking for Thai visa on passport B ).

UGLY

- Send the passport B out to your home country to get a tourist visa (while staying legally in Thailand on passport A). If you did this just right (marginal consulate, a bit of care using the passports), I think the chances of being caught would be minimal, but there's a miniscule chance of things going wrong (e.g. them doing a thorough cross-check and then caring enough to somehow flag you passport A so you have trouble exiting the country).

You *can* use 2 passports to your advantage -- you ought to do it with care, and it should be a backup option, not your plan A for staying in Thailand. However, in these times of uncertainty, I'd rather have that option than not.

I'd be happy if somebody with more knowledge could correct me, but I think the basic rule is to use only one of the passports for 30-day VOA (while you can use both to apply for regular visas)

Edited October 10, 2006 by crocodilexp

[johnnyk]

I notice when they swipe my pp through a reader at the airport upon entry (not just in Thailand) they swipe the page with the picture, dob, place of birth, country of birth, place and date of issue.

It looks like the bottom of the page with the two lines of info at the bottom passes through the swipe device.

Those two lines contain my name, country and a lot of digits including pp number, dob and some others that don't correspond to any other numbers on the page....hmmmm.

[Old Croc]

Virtually all passports are now machine readable. Basically that means the swipe (or scan) of the words and numbers at the bottom of the details page enables the computer to grab all the information it needs to record the movement. It will cross match with former movements via name and dob, passport or visa number.

[onebir]

Virtually all passports are now machine readable. Basically that means the swipe (or scan) of the words and numbers at the bottom of the details page enables the computer to grab all the information it needs to record the movement. It will cross match with former movements via name and dob, passport or visa number.

Which raises the question of whether the database matches just name and dob, or name, dob and passport number...

Of course it's possible it does both - matching name and dob to throw up all possible matching individuals (and maybe their pictures?) but identifying the one with the matching passport number as the most likely match....