US downgrades Thai air safety rating

[baboon]

It's nothing else than blackmail.

For me, Thai Airways will remain one of the best airlines in the world.

Is this sarcasm . Please explain ?

Blackmail to force Thailand into TPP I fear.

Thai Airways has absolutely good service, and I never heard of a Thai pilot that used an airplane to kill the passengers (like this Germanwings pilot did)

To use one - ONE - example of a deranged individual as an implication of the superiority of Thai aviation is frankly silly. I would happily fly on any German carrier from a safety perspective any day of the week. I could not say the same for the likes of Orient Thai.

As for the "Blackmail" flapdoodle, has it not ouccoured to you that the likes of the FAA do not wish to see Thai passengers needlessly lose their lives either? Do you think they lack conscience or what?

[LivinLOS]

Say what you want but this latest aviation fiasco is a direct result of military rule, combine Thainess and absolute control and you have an invitation to disaster

Going forward it will only get worse and the expression " power corrupts , and absolute power corrupts absolutely " will become even more appropriate once the military starts their normal blame game

It is not a direct result of military rule.

Do you truly think all this has happened in the last 18 months?

It has been building up for years through many governments totally ignoring the real world and living in their own cosy one.

This government just happens to be in power when it all brewed up.

Whichever government would have been in power at this time would have to face up to the problem, no matter if it was a Thaksin, Democrat, Military or even a coalition one and I don't expect any of them would know what to do or how to do it.

The world has got smaller over the years and more notice is being taken of the rules and regulations internationally.

What you can do domestically with your own country doesn't mean that it will work internationally any more.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/20/thailand-politics-thai-airways-idUSL4N0PP21120140720

Same as Thai Airways.. Same for the Civila aviation authority.. Air force staff put in charge 18 months ago.. and a total failure to manage.

[smotherb]

Never ceases to amaze; no US bashing on this. Usually we hear, "What business is this of the US?" or "The US ought to look at its own."

Maybe this is something about which more of us know.

[JAG]

I have the feeling that if not for the FAA along with similar controlling bodies thailand would attempt to run its airlines along the same lines as their land transport systems, buses and vans.

Did you ever fly "One to Go"?

[bangon04]

EU inspectors announce their decision on 15th Dec and it will be very surprising if they don't go the same way as FAA - historically in this region once one regulator downgrades then others follow suit eventually as happenned with Indonesia and Philippines.

Useful piece of analysis from SCB a few months back on likely consequences:

https://www.scbeic.com/en/detail/product/1359

Biggest issue will be how the Junta react to this huge loss face in the international arena.

Junta is far to busy prosecuting LM "offenders" and consolidating it's own power base to concern themselves with minor issues like aviation security.

Maybe time to organise another protest outside the US Ambassador's place and tell him to go home??

[trainman34014]

The best news in all this is that now Thai ''VIP's'' can't fly free to the USA anymore....they will have to stump up with other airlines just like the rest of us do !

[Dumbastheycome]

I read a lot of rhetoric over this issue but to date have yet to read anything substantive as to what Thailands air safety issues are. Air Asia Thai is a subsidary of Air Asia Malaysia in effect and as an air transport business is efficient in every aspect of operations. Domestic Airlines may have some issues but an International carrier is not likely to be grossly negligent.

As with other "issues of concern" this smacks of backdoor sanction.

[MobileContent]

Hmmh - In other countries the Minister of Transportation including the CEO/MD;s of the airports would be fired on the spot but in Thailand I think they will receive a medal.

I think ICAO will be the next one moving forward which would mean ALL AIRLINES in Thailand will be effected by the announcement.

7 1/2 months ago the current government said the Japanese and Chinese will let them have charter flights to Japan and China but nothing happens.

Now, lets move fast forward and you can be sure Thai AirAsia will be very <SNIP> as they will not be able to add new flights from Thailand once ICAO follows the rulings.

I would highly suggest that Mjets Thailand takes over the operation of AOT. Their VIP Terminal was build of US standard and they are not linked to AOT.

Another option would be allow some global airports to take over the Airport operations of Thailand and show them how to run an airport through international standards.

[MobileContent]

Never ceases to amaze; no US bashing on this. Usually we hear, "What business is this of the US?" or "The US ought to look at its own."

Maybe this is something about which more of us know.

Possible.

Hasn't Prayuth just announced he wants to stay until late 2017 in power.

Some how that the US gets involved will also mean that ICAO Montreal will get a bite at it which would mean this will be world-wide and Thai which is linked to the Thai Air-Force and the army in general could see revenues drop during the next 12 months. First Class and Business Class travelers that work for companies might have to switch to other airlines as many of the large companies follow those advise. Emirates and Qatar Airways will be happy to pick up those high flying executives.

Their was an issue in Indonesia a few years back where CEO's and Senior Management were not permitted to fly with any Indonesian airline and they used only Singapore Airlines, KLM etc to Jakarta.

[MobileContent]

Say what you want but this latest aviation fiasco is a direct result of military rule, combine Thainess and absolute control and you have an invitation to disaster

Going forward it will only get worse and the expression " power corrupts , and absolute power corrupts absolutely " will become even more appropriate once the military starts their normal blame game

It is not a direct result of military rule.

Do you truly think all this has happened in the last 18 months?

It has been building up for years through many governments totally ignoring the real world and living in their own cosy one.

This government just happens to be in power when it all brewed up.

Whichever government would have been in power at this time would have to face up to the problem, no matter if it was a Thaksin, Democrat, Military or even a coalition one and I don't expect any of them would know what to do or how to do it.

The world has got smaller over the years and more notice is being taken of the rules and regulations internationally.

What you can do domestically with your own country doesn't mean that it will work internationally any more.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/20/thailand-politics-thai-airways-idUSL4N0PP21120140720

Same as Thai Airways.. Same for the Civila aviation authority.. Air force staff put in charge 18 months ago.. and a total failure to manage.

LivingLOS - The Airport of Thailand has always been linked to the Air Force and so is Thai Airways.

Check the Board of Directors to get an idea who are the guys that call the shots.

Even the whole Security at the Airport is linked to the army.

[optad]

I read a lot of rhetoric over this issue but to date have yet to read anything substantive as to what Thailands air safety issues are. Air Asia Thai is a subsidary of Air Asia Malaysia in effect and as an air transport business is efficient in every aspect of operations. Domestic Airlines may have some issues but an International carrier is not likely to be grossly negligent.

As with other "issues of concern" this smacks of backdoor sanction.

dumbastheycome maybe it is what it is.

Note this though. Most carriers these days are finding it easier to ease maintenance issues whilst upbraiding their fleet stock. New generation aircraft mitigates old fleet costs, gives new fuel load economies and passenger opportunity costs on-board with great competitive equivalences.

THAI's old fleet and inability to meet current safety requirements was bound to hit problems, particularly in this era.

One truism about the aviation industry though. When you hit one problem, there will be others in neat succession if not contained.

Dark days ahead for THAI. No govt capacity nor corporate integrity to defend what comes. Totally vulnerable.

[MobileContent]

bizarre ...

FAA: THAI has a problem

THAI: we have no problem & we operate with the highest international standards

THAI: and even if we didn't, it's still not a problem because we canceled our only flight to America.

Very strange I read and reread the FAA announcement, and i'm not found any reference to Thai Airways International (THAI TG/THA)

https://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=19814

All Thai Airlines are included except Mjets which run their own terminal at Don Muang and they actually saw it coming last year and asked the FAA to certify their VIP Private terminal.

[Dumbastheycome]

I read a lot of rhetoric over this issue but to date have yet to read anything substantive as to what Thailands air safety issues are. Air Asia Thai is a subsidary of Air Asia Malaysia in effect and as an air transport business is efficient in every aspect of operations. Domestic Airlines may have some issues but an International carrier is not likely to be grossly negligent.

As with other "issues of concern" this smacks of backdoor sanction.

dumbastheycome maybe it is what it is.

Note this though. Most carriers these days are finding it easier to ease maintenance issues whilst upbraiding their fleet stock. New generation aircraft mitigates old fleet costs, gives new fuel load economies and passenger opportunity costs on-board with great competitive equivalences.

THAI's old fleet and inability to meet current safety requirements was bound to hit problems, particularly in this era.

One truism about the aviation industry though. When you hit one problem, there will be others in neat succession if not contained.

Dark days ahead for THAI. No govt capacity nor corporate integrity to defend what comes. Totally vulnerable.

TRue. As "nice" as they are to deal with THAI is looking tired in image, performance and competitiveness.

[taony]

Everyone, ICAO already got the ball rolling at the beginning of the year. That's why Japan, China, and South Korea took their measures. That caused the FAA to re-audit the Thai civil aviation authority and now they are taking the same measures.

[tingtongfarang]

I have the feeling that if not for the FAA along with similar controlling bodies thailand would attempt to run its airlines along the same lines as their land transport systems, buses and vans.

Did you ever fly "One to Go"?

Up until now i must be close to 100 flights with them between bkk-hk, truth is i,m just not a nervous flyer and even with one to go i feel much safer than on thailands land based transport.

[billd766]

Say what you want but this latest aviation fiasco is a direct result of military rule, combine Thainess and absolute control and you have an invitation to disaster

Going forward it will only get worse and the expression " power corrupts , and absolute power corrupts absolutely " will become even more appropriate once the military starts their normal blame game

It is not a direct result of military rule.

Do you truly think all this has happened in the last 18 months?

It has been building up for years through many governments totally ignoring the real world and living in their own cosy one.

This government just happens to be in power when it all brewed up.

Whichever government would have been in power at this time would have to face up to the problem, no matter if it was a Thaksin, Democrat, Military or even a coalition one and I don't expect any of them would know what to do or how to do it.

The world has got smaller over the years and more notice is being taken of the rules and regulations internationally.

What you can do domestically with your own country doesn't mean that it will work internationally any more.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/20/thailand-politics-thai-airways-idUSL4N0PP21120140720

Same as Thai Airways.. Same for the Civila aviation authority.. Air force staff put in charge 18 months ago.. and a total failure to manage.

Are you saying that has only happened in the last 18 months and before that time everything was perfect with no problems internationally at all?

[TheCruncher]

Face, slap, auwa! But no ploplem new BFF China will give #1.

If any other restrictions announced for northern asia, China will do the same.

Didbn't China issue a warning a few months ago already?

[TheCruncher]

Say what you want but this latest aviation fiasco is a direct result of military rule, combine Thainess and absolute control and you have an invitation to disaster

Going forward it will only get worse and the expression " power corrupts , and absolute power corrupts absolutely " will become even more appropriate once the military starts their normal blame game

It is not a direct result of military rule.

Do you truly think all this has happened in the last 18 months?

It has been building up for years through many governments totally ignoring the real world and living in their own cosy one.

This government just happens to be in power when it all brewed up.

Whichever government would have been in power at this time would have to face up to the problem, no matter if it was a Thaksin, Democrat, Military or even a coalition one and I don't expect any of them would know what to do or how to do it.

The world has got smaller over the years and more notice is being taken of the rules and regulations internationally.

What you can do domestically with your own country doesn't mean that it will work internationally any more.

many governments totally ignoring the real world and living in their own cosy one.

I doubt the US. EU, China and Japan have been totally ignoring the real world prior to May 2014

Edited December 2, 2015 by TheCruncher

[Prbkk]

Air New Zealand is advertising direct flights to HCMC starting next year priced 1000-1200 NZD. This is similar to that of Qantas to BKK $1200 with 1 stopover and Malaysia 1000-1100 NZD with 1 to 2 stopovers (up to 6 hours each!). Thai offers direct BKK for 1800 NZD. HCMC is now looking like our new SEA hub for travel.

And if VN Airlines worked out that by offering status matches for members of Thai (0r QANTAS for that matter) they would pick up huge market share in a flash. Alitalia has been doing it but it's not so relevant as VN.

Thai is very vulnerable and the minor inconvenience of a stop enroute ( or conveniene if it's a stopover option) is not going to stop VN, CZ, MH continuing to eat into markets and market segments that TG has taken for granted

[JAWF]

" I don't know why this problem cannot be solved, it should not take long. "

farangs dont undertsand the Thai ways

[micmichd]

Could German perfection and Thai improvisation end up in synergy?

[PeVee1st]

What happened to the super committee formed a few months ago to fix this problem?

[than]

bizarre ...

FAA: THAI has a problem

THAI: we have no problem & we operate with the highest international standards

THAI: and even if we didn't, it's still not a problem because we canceled our only flight to America.

Very strange I read and reread the FAA announcement, and i'm not found any reference to Thai Airways International (THAI TG/THA)

https://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=19814

It applies to all Thailand air carriers.

WASHINGTON – The U.S. Department of Transportation’s Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) today announced that the Kingdom of Thailand does not comply with International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) safety standards and has been assigned a Category 2 ratingbased on a reassessment of the country’s civil aviation authority.

Thailand’s carriers can continue existing service to the United States. They will not be allowed to establish new service to the United States.

I'm agree with you it's that FAA declare but In he is comment tbthailand only target TG

[honcho]

maybe not enough spirit shrines at swampy...... chock dee chock dee..... add another couple for safety!

[WinnieTheKhwai]

This down-grading is for major deficiencies noted against Thai AirAsia X, does anyone know if similar criticism has been leveled at Thai International ?

Source?

The down-grading is for major deficiencies in Thailand's Civil Aviation Authority in terms of standards and procedures. This affects all airlines equally, both the good ones (AirAsia X, Bangkok Air, etc.) as well as the really crappy ones. (Orient, etc..)

The ruling is mostly to prevent fly-by-night basket-case airlines like Orient to open routes to the US. And of course that without adequate Thai government oversight, the safety assertion of any Thai airline is meaningless, regardless of the airline procedures which may be crap, or may be world class.

[Nuddy]

Good to know the beer bars and drunken parties that the inspectors were subjected to did not cause the report from being changed. Viva Obama!

The inspectors did not go anywhere near beer bars or drunken parties. If you knew anything about their work, you would not have made a complete fool of yourself with your childish nonsense. Much of the review was done in the USA, based upon documents the Thais provided. There were also video conferences and many many phone calls. The inspections in Thailand, left little time for fun. The inspectors knew that they were being watched and any questionable activity would have been leaked.

EU inspectors announce their decision on 15th Dec and it will be very surprising if they don't go the same way as FAA - historically in this region once one regulator downgrades then others follow suit eventually as happenned with Indonesia and Philippines.

Useful piece of analysis from SCB a few months back on likely consequences:

Biggest issue will be how the Junta react to this huge loss face in the international arena.

EU will follow suit. It was the EU that had raised the redflag first because of the concern that Thai aircraft were using EU airspace. The risk is more pronounced for EU nationals. The EU has been warning that it would do something.

The announcement from Thai Airways executives that more or less they don't care what FAA say since they stopped fly to USA October 25 and are not affected by the negative impact it have. I have always liked Thai and their service, but after this statement I will not fly with Thai anymore. I can't understand why Thai don't fix the problems instead of ignoring this time after time. Maybe the day when they are forbidden to fly to EU and some of the Asian countries they will wake up. Now with aircrafts that use less fuel then the Airbus 340 Thai could have had a market in the US. It's just unfair that the goverment in Thailand can't take air safety seriously, Ait Asia X like to expand their flights and they could be a good addition to Norwegians low cost flights now when Norwegian start Asian flights from London in addition to the Bangkok flights from Scandinavia

The impact is very significant. It means that TG will not be able to code share with US carriers. This will in turn mean no more code shares with carriers like Air Canada, Lufthansa, ANA, SAS and Brussels Airlines. All of the Star Alliance carriers in the developed world will be required to drop code shares with TG and there is a strong likelihood that TG could be compelled to withdraw from *A. Bangkok Airways could see it lose the code shares it has with Delta/KLM/Air France on the domestic routes.

This is going to cost Thailand's airlines. Domestic carriers are in for a wakeup call as they may eventually be restricted in key foreign markets of Hong Kong, Korea, Japan, Taiwan and Singapore.

Thailand was warned, but it ignored the warnings.

Amongst all the comments I like this one the most.

This downgrade is not over yet.

The EU will probably do the same thing and good on them

Airline safety is paramount and despite individual airlines saying it won't effect them, it will.

The code sharing is coming as the next target.

And thinking other Asian countries will support the peanut brain Thailand Air officials is folly.

This is already on record from when the Red card was given.

I reckon Thailand air services are toast mates!

[kannot]

EU inspectors announce their decision on 15th Dec and it will be very surprising if they don't go the same way as FAA - historically in this region once one regulator downgrades then others follow suit eventually as happenned with Indonesia and Philippines.

Useful piece of analysis from SCB a few months back on likely consequences:

https://www.scbeic.com/en/detail/product/1359

Biggest issue will be how the Junta react to this huge loss face in the international arena.

Biggest issue will be how the Junta react to this huge loss face in the international arena.

they will stick their pea-brain dinosaur heads in the sand, flail their arms wildly and scream through their a..es that it is all the falangs' fault...

Or start a new airline " Junta Airlines".............lets have some catchy motto's now

[kannot]

What happened to the super committee formed a few months ago to fix this problem?

plane went down somewhere over the Pacific en route to LA

[Heng]

SQ goes everywhere I need to go on the planet. It's easier to trust the management skills of folks who have $5+ billion in cash reserves vs. someone who has negative cash. Not to mention that there are about 500 worse options in the world than connecting through Changi.

[Dumbastheycome]

This down-grading is for major deficiencies noted against Thai AirAsia X, does anyone know if similar criticism has been leveled at Thai International ?

Source?

The down-grading is for major deficiencies in Thailand's Civil Aviation Authority in terms of standards and procedures. This affects all airlines equally, both the good ones (AirAsia X, Bangkok Air, etc.) as well as the really crappy ones. (Orient, etc..)

The ruling is mostly to prevent fly-by-night basket-case airlines like Orient to open routes to the US. And of course that without adequate Thai government oversight, the safety assertion of any Thai airline is meaningless, regardless of the airline procedures which may be crap, or may be world class.

So by being non discretionary it nobbles all air travel operators in Thailand....thus aimed at the Govt. Sanction !