Realistic chances of obtaining Thai citizenship?

[samran]

I know it is now just a dream, but for us retirees who live here and nowhere else, we spend all our retirement income here with Thai wife and one or more children, why in the world can they not allow us to apply for the Thai citizenship? We are contributing much more than a worker here paying taxes; more often than not!

My Thai wife applied for US citizenship after three years as a spouse. There was NO employment requirement. So she is dual and my daughter is dual, but alas the poor farang lives here year by year with retirement extension as a guest who could be booted for several reasons. I do ask the Thais to call me Khun Farang so it doesn't offend me quite so much.

Waiting and hoping for my opportunity to apply!

Can't think of too many countries which offer retiree visa's at all, let alone a path to citizenship for them.

While I take your point about probably earning more than the humble Thai Chao naa, the fact of the matter is Thailand gets its FOREX earnings from exports, tourism (also technically and export) and FDI - and have the BOI privileges that go with that. Your pension doesn't even count as a rounding error.

More accurately, Thailand is willing to take people who are contributing via a job. Otherwise, you are basically giving away citizenship for money...and no one wants that.

Having said all that, I do wish Thailand made more allowance for granting an easier path to citizenship for those married to Thai citizens. The best a foreign male has in this case is to get a work permit, earn 40K per month and up and apply under the category and do that for 3 years before you apply (though you'll have to remain employed as well through the process).

[Arkady]

I know it is now just a dream, but for us retirees who live here and nowhere else, we spend all our retirement income here with Thai wife and one or more children, why in the world can they not allow us to apply for the Thai citizenship? We are contributing much more than a worker here paying taxes; more often than not!

My Thai wife applied for US citizenship after three years as a spouse. There was NO employment requirement. So she is dual and my daughter is dual, but alas the poor farang lives here year by year with retirement extension as a guest who could be booted for several reasons. I do ask the Thais to call me Khun Farang so it doesn't offend me quite so much.

Waiting and hoping for my opportunity to apply!

In 2008 the Nationality Act was amended to allow foreign males with Thai wives exemption from PR and the requirement to have knowledge of the Thai language (interpreted as not having to sing the national and royal anthems) but not the other requirements, if they wish to apply for naturalisation under Section 10. The original bill, spoonsored by a female Democrat Party MP actually allowed foreign males with Thai wives to apply under Section 9 in the way as foreign women with Thai husbands apply. Under Section 9 their is no requirement for foreign wives to have PR, a profession in Thailand or knowledge of the Thai language. The idea of putting foreign males with Thai wives on the same basis as foreign females with Thai husbands was opposed by (among others) the legal committee of the Interior Ministry who argued this would constitute a threat to national security. The minutes of their meeting were published publicly online and are probably still up there.

So your answere is probalby that it will take a lot more time to be treated the same way as foreign women with Thai husbands because you are considered a threat to national security. Meanwhile, Thai women continue to suffer to secual discrimation under the Nationality Act because they have inferior rights for their foreign spouses than Thai men get for theirs.

[sas_cars]

I know it is now just a dream, but for us retirees who live here and nowhere else, we spend all our retirement income here with Thai wife and one or more children, why in the world can they not allow us to apply for the Thai citizenship? We are contributing much more than a worker here paying taxes; more often than not!

My Thai wife applied for US citizenship after three years as a spouse. There was NO employment requirement. So she is dual and my daughter is dual, but alas the poor farang lives here year by year with retirement extension as a guest who could be booted for several reasons. I do ask the Thais to call me Khun Farang so it doesn't offend me quite so much.

Waiting and hoping for my opportunity to apply!

In 2008 the Nationality Act was amended to allow foreign males with Thai wives exemption from PR and the requirement to have knowledge of the Thai language (interpreted as not having to sing the national and royal anthems) but not the other requirements, if they wish to apply for naturalisation under Section 10. The original bill, spoonsored by a female Democrat Party MP actually allowed foreign males with Thai wives to apply under Section 9 in the way as foreign women with Thai husbands apply. Under Section 9 their is no requirement for foreign wives to have PR, a profession in Thailand or knowledge of the Thai language. The idea of putting foreign males with Thai wives on the same basis as foreign females with Thai husbands was opposed by (among others) the legal committee of the Interior Ministry who argued this would constitute a threat to national security. The minutes of their meeting were published publicly online and are probably still up there.

So your answere is probalby that it will take a lot more time to be treated the same way as foreign women with Thai husbands because you are considered a threat to national security. Meanwhile, Thai women continue to suffer to secual discrimation under the Nationality Act because they have inferior rights for their foreign spouses than Thai men get for theirs.

Before the 2008 nationality act, it was much tougher for a foreign spouse, PR was also required. So I guess lots of people would be thanking for the amendments made in the 2008 act which makes it much easier for a foreign legitimate spouse to get thai citizenship. IMHO, even as a foreign male, I won't support someone to get citizenship on just the basis of marriage, when he's not working or contributing anything at all to the country.

[asiasurfer]

A male applicant married to a Thai needs a salary of at least B40,000 a month. The B30,000 a month you mention is, I believe, for minorities living in Thailand (i.e. hilltribes etc). You will need a letter from your company confirming your salary and 3 years' of tax receipts. So you will need to get a pay rise to be eligible. I am not sure, if you need to have the B40,000 a month for the whole 3 years or just for the last year before you apply. I suspect it is the latter but, if you can get a pay rise and are interested in applying, you should go and Special Branch at Police National HQ in Bkk to ask their advice. Contrary to popular belief it is actually possible for applicants earning the minimum of B40,000 to be approved, since everything is being done by the book these days under the military government.

Yes, that is what I said as well in my post #44. Let's assume I have a base salary of 35,000 Baht per month. But over the whole year I get bonuses of additional 60,000 Baht. So on average over the whole year it would be still 40,000 Baht - just calculated over the whole year. Would it be a problem then, if the letter from the employer only states 35,000 Baht / month, although I have the tax receipts?

It is quite illogical but the salary stated in the letter from your employer and the total income you paid tax on the previous year have to match. They are not interested in hearing anything about pay rises, bonuses or job changes. This can be a bit of a headache but you just have to somehow get the two to match, which often requires an understanding employer.

Ah, that makes sense then also with what ubonjoe said:

1. I need to have the tax receipts that I paid taxes on a total of 480,000 Baht salary per annum (i.e. 40,000 Baht per month x 12 Months).

2. I need a letter from my employer, confirming that my total income averages 40,000 Baht per month.

And that's all legally correct then? Right?

It would be better if the employment letter said you were employed on a salary of exactly B40,000 a month or whatever income you declared the year before divided by 12, so long as it was at least 40k a month. Since they have no imagination, you need to make it as simple as possible for them and don't expect they will be interested in listening to any logical explanations.

Thanks Arkady. I think that explains it all. Now I just have to make that thing work...

[dbrenn]

If married to a Thai the salary requirement is 40k baht. See here for more info: Guidelines and documents required for application for Thai citizenship by naturalization

There is also this existing long topic about getting citizenship: dbrenn's story of Thai citizenship application

what if you have business and earn good amount money , will you eligible for citizenship ?

Possible - I have many friends in Thailand that became Thai citizen. It also helps if you give a million Baht to a charity such as the red cross and make sure you take a picture of it. Further more a character witness such as one or several hi so Thai's can be of great benefit.

I have never met one Farang that was on a salary of 36 - 40k a month that got citizenship but most of the guys I know make between 400-750k a month and citizenship applications doesn't take very long.

Of course it's good to be well off and well connected, but it's certainly not necessary.

I know a couple of people who have successfully applied with only modest financial means, a co-worker or neighbour as a witness, no hi-so contacts, and a small (5 to 10k or thereabouts) charitable donation.

[ubonjoe]

I know it is now just a dream, but for us retirees who live here and nowhere else, we spend all our retirement income here with Thai wife and one or more children, why in the world can they not allow us to apply for the Thai citizenship? We are contributing much more than a worker here paying taxes; more often than not!

My Thai wife applied for US citizenship after three years as a spouse. There was NO employment requirement. So she is dual and my daughter is dual, but alas the poor farang lives here year by year with retirement extension as a guest who could be booted for several reasons. I do ask the Thais to call me Khun Farang so it doesn't offend me quite so much.

Waiting and hoping for my opportunity to apply!

In 2008 the Nationality Act was amended to allow foreign males with Thai wives exemption from PR and the requirement to have knowledge of the Thai language (interpreted as not having to sing the national and royal anthems) but not the other requirements, if they wish to apply for naturalisation under Section 10. The original bill, spoonsored by a female Democrat Party MP actually allowed foreign males with Thai wives to apply under Section 9 in the way as foreign women with Thai husbands apply. Under Section 9 their is no requirement for foreign wives to have PR, a profession in Thailand or knowledge of the Thai language. The idea of putting foreign males with Thai wives on the same basis as foreign females with Thai husbands was opposed by (among others) the legal committee of the Interior Ministry who argued this would constitute a threat to national security. The minutes of their meeting were published publicly online and are probably still up there.

So your answere is probalby that it will take a lot more time to be treated the same way as foreign women with Thai husbands because you are considered a threat to national security. Meanwhile, Thai women continue to suffer to secual discrimation under the Nationality Act because they have inferior rights for their foreign spouses than Thai men get for theirs.

So to satisfy the bureaucrats they wrote the rules such that only those working can get citizenship. And it only requires 3 years of marriage to apply.

Why could they not also of allowed those that have been married many years and doing extensions of stay based upon marriage for X number of years to apply also.? Perhaps at least 10 years of marriage and 5 years on extensions (14 and 7 for me already)..

[asiasurfer]

When you apply for citizenship you present your annual Thai tax returns for the past 3 years for proof of you income. The gross amount of income for the year would be used to give you a average monthly income.

Thanks. I was just a bit confused because of this part of the sentence in point 3.2:

or they should they should have paid personal income tax of more than 50,000 baht per year for the 3 tax years prior to their application for naturalization.

Their are two parts to that or statement. You provide either of the two.

"should have an income of not less than 40,000 baht a month supported by a letter of confirmation of monthly salary/income and must show evidence that they have paid tax for not less than 3 years; or they should they should have paid personal income tax of more than 50,000 baht per year for the 3 tax years prior to their application for naturalization".

Maybe this is also a daft question. But what is actually the difference between these two (above)? Because in the end of the day you still have to be working and paying taxes?? Thanks...

[Arkady]

I know it is now just a dream, but for us retirees who live here and nowhere else, we spend all our retirement income here with Thai wife and one or more children, why in the world can they not allow us to apply for the Thai citizenship? We are contributing much more than a worker here paying taxes; more often than not!

My Thai wife applied for US citizenship after three years as a spouse. There was NO employment requirement. So she is dual and my daughter is dual, but alas the poor farang lives here year by year with retirement extension as a guest who could be booted for several reasons. I do ask the Thais to call me Khun Farang so it doesn't offend me quite so much.

Waiting and hoping for my opportunity to apply!

In 2008 the Nationality Act was amended to allow foreign males with Thai wives exemption from PR and the requirement to have knowledge of the Thai language (interpreted as not having to sing the national and royal anthems) but not the other requirements, if they wish to apply for naturalisation under Section 10. The original bill, spoonsored by a female Democrat Party MP actually allowed foreign males with Thai wives to apply under Section 9 in the way as foreign women with Thai husbands apply. Under Section 9 their is no requirement for foreign wives to have PR, a profession in Thailand or knowledge of the Thai language. The idea of putting foreign males with Thai wives on the same basis as foreign females with Thai husbands was opposed by (among others) the legal committee of the Interior Ministry who argued this would constitute a threat to national security. The minutes of their meeting were published publicly online and are probably still up there.

So your answere is probalby that it will take a lot more time to be treated the same way as foreign women with Thai husbands because you are considered a threat to national security. Meanwhile, Thai women continue to suffer to secual discrimation under the Nationality Act because they have inferior rights for their foreign spouses than Thai men get for theirs.

So to satisfy the bureaucrats they wrote the rules such that only those working can get citizenship. And it only requires 3 years of marriage to apply.

Why could they not also of allowed those that have been married many years and doing extensions of stay based upon marriage for X number of years to apply also.? Perhaps at least 10 years of marriage and 5 years on extensions (14 and 7 for me already)..

The original bill would have made Section 9 unisex, i.e. foreigner with a Thai spouse, in place of foreign women with a Thai husband. What they actually did was to add two waivers for Section 10 applicants in Section 11, i.e. the requirements for foreign men with a Thai to have 5 years' residence in the Kingdom and to have knowledge of the Thai language. That was a neat fix from their perspective requiring only the addition of two clauses to Section 11. Making the exemption you suggest would have altered one of the fundamental tenets of the Nationality Act (and the Immigration Act), which is that applicants for nationality (and permanent residence) must have a profession in the Kingdom. The only way to do this without disrupting that principle would have been to adopt the original bill unchanged which they point blank rejected.

[Peter58]

An interesting thread and my apologies if I missed the answer to my question.

Where, exactly, can one find out the requirements to apply for Thai citizenship?

I have PR (based on the enormous amount of tax paid in my previous job), I have been married for to a Thai citizen for far more than the period mentioned anywhere above, my wife and I own our own business but my tax payments since starting this business have been less than some claim as being required...... (which is not an issue if you applied for PR based on marriage!).

Facts would be helpful!

[ubonjoe]

An interesting thread and my apologies if I missed the answer to my question.

Where, exactly, can one find out the requirements to apply for Thai citizenship?

I have PR (based on the enormous amount of tax paid in my previous job), I have been married for to a Thai citizen for far more than the period mentioned anywhere above, my wife and I own our own business but my tax payments since starting this business have been less than some claim as being required...... (which is not an issue if you applied for PR based on marriage!).

Facts would be helpful!

If married to a Thai the income requirement is 40k baht. See Guidelines and documents required for application for Thai citizenship by naturalization

[Arkady]

An interesting thread and my apologies if I missed the answer to my question.

Where, exactly, can one find out the requirements to apply for Thai citizenship?

I have PR (based on the enormous amount of tax paid in my previous job), I have been married for to a Thai citizen for far more than the period mentioned anywhere above, my wife and I own our own business but my tax payments since starting this business have been less than some claim as being required...... (which is not an issue if you applied for PR based on marriage!).

Facts would be helpful!

You may find all pertinent facts about applying for Thai citizenship up-to-date on Special Branch's website here http://www.sbpolice.go.th/page-service1.php. I translated the guidelines that were issued in 2009 for my own purposes, as attached by Ubonjoe, and believe they have not changed. But for the sake of completeness you should read all the Thai files provided on the SB website, as I did before my own application.

[Asheron]

Am I right in thinking that one has to show prof that one has relinquished you former citizenship before obtaining Thai citizenship? And if so why would anyone wish to do this as it would create many problems when you want to travel abroad?

Maybe you would loose your pension and free medical care if your country has any, I know a Denmark man who has thai citizenship many years and he needs visa to go to Denmark.

If i were you i would tell my danish friend that he have until 21th august 2020[1] to get back his danish citizenship[2] and also, to my knowledge, keep his thai citizenship. They made this possible in Denmark just a few months ago.

[1] http://www.oresunddirekt.se/samhaelle/pass-medborgarskap/dubbelt-medborgarskap-i-danmark-och-sverige

[2] http://www.statsforvaltningen.dk/site.aspx?p=7313

[Arkady]

Am I right in thinking that one has to show prof that one has relinquished you former citizenship before obtaining Thai citizenship? And if so why would anyone wish to do this as it would create many problems when you want to travel abroad?

Maybe you would loose your pension and free medical care if your country has any, I know a Denmark man who has thai citizenship many years and he needs visa to go to Denmark.

If i were you i would tell my danish friend that he have until 21th august 2020[1] to get back his danish citizenship[2] and also, to my knowledge, keep his thai citizenship. They made this possible in Denmark just a few months ago.

The Danish guy must have given up his Danish citizenship as a Danish requirement. In Thailand, they now let the other countries do the job for them by sending letters to the embassies but this has been the practice since 2010 when some new regulations came in. The Thai Nationality Act has no provision to require evidence of other nationality renunciation, so they can't ask for it, much as they might wish to.

[tangdio]

On 12/7/2015 at 2:57 PM, ubonjoe said:

If married to a Thai the salary requirement is 40k baht. See here for more info: Guidelines and documents required for application for Thai citizenship by naturalization

There is also this existing long topic about getting citizenship: dbrenn's story of Thai citizenship application

Are these guidelines still valid, because the link does not take me anywhere. 

Cheers

[ubonjoe]

37 minutes ago, tangdio said:

Are these guidelines still valid, because the link does not take me anywhere. 

Cheers

Try using this one. Guidelines and documents required for application for Thai citizenship by naturalization

The other one was broken.

[tangdio]

Does this apply to men married to a Thai: 

(1)  "4. They should have received permission from the Immigration Bureau to remain permanently in the Kingdom of Thailand and be able to show supporting documentation in the form of a Certificate of Residence, an Alien Registration Book, or a House Registration Certificate (Thor Ror 14) that proves incontrovertibly that they have been permanently resident in Thailand for not less than 5 years. "

(2)  "5. They should have been permanently resident in the Kingdom of Thailand for not less than 5 years counted from the date they received their Certificate of Residence, Alien Registration Book or House Registration Certificate (Thor 
Ror 14) that proves incontrovertibly that they have been permanently resident in Thailand for not less than 5 years."

(3) "1.  Alien registration book (copy of every page with information recorded) – 5 copies." 
 
(4) "2.  Certificate of residence (copy of every page with information recorded) – 5 copies."

(5) What if I am an employee under a sole propriety (wife's name), am I excempted from the corporate requirements (and supply the corresponding documents for the sole propriety)?

(6) Do the 5 year requirements become 3 year requirements if married to a Thai? And to 1 year if married to a Thai with a child?

Thanks.

You guys are a great help.

[tangdio]

Also, where can I find the rubric for re: the 50+ points needed?

And what other rules are not required for those with a Thai wife (singing national anthem, etc.)?

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, tangdio said:

Does this apply to men married to a Thai: 

No it does not.

Those are mostly only for those who are not married to a Thai and to have permanent residency to apply for Thai nationality.

If married to a Thai you have to meet these requirements to apply.

 

"3.2 Applicants with direct personal ties with Thailand, such as those married to a Thai citizen, those with children who are Thai citizens, or those who graduated from an institute of tertiary education in Thailand should have an income of not less than 40,000 baht a month supported by a letter of confirmation of monthly salary/income and must show evidence that they have paid tax for not less than 3 years; or they should they should have paid personal income tax of more than 50,000 baht per year for the 3 tax years prior to their application for naturalization"

You do need a yellow house book but it does not have to show your have been at that residence for 3 years.

If working for a sole proprietorship the corporate documents would not be needed.

If you meet the basic requirements it would be best to contact the Special Branch police office that handles the application to find out what exactly is needed. Also best to ask question about doing the application in this long ongoing topic. dbrenn's story of Thai citizenship application Many of the most recent posts there are done by those that have for having a Thai wife. 

[ubonjoe]

6 minutes ago, tangdio said:

Also, where can I find the rubric for re: the 50+ points needed?
And what other rules are not required for those with a Thai wife (singing national anthem, etc.)?

See the ongoing topic I mentioned for info about the points.

The Thai language requirement and singing do not apply if you are married to a Thai. But being able to speak and write does add points.

[tangdio]

Thanks. This information is great. 

Is the time of residence in Thailand broken if I make a 45 day trip out of the country, while obtaining a reentry permit?

Time of residence would be a lot easier having a child to bring the 3 years down to 1. 

[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, tangdio said:

Is the time of residence in Thailand broken if I make a 45 day trip out of the country, while obtaining a reentry permit?

Only leaving the country and getting a new visa for entry would break the required stay on extension of stay.

[Esso49]

On 10/24/2018 at 8:16 AM, ubonjoe said:

See the ongoing topic I mentioned for info about the points.

The Thai language requirement and singing do not apply if you are married to a Thai. But being able to speak and write does add points.

Ubonjoe, as a knowledgeable person can you confirm or otherwise that you must currently be in work and paying Thai tax naturally, to be considered for citizenship even if married to a Thai ?  I have had some conflicting advice over the years and never really bothered to take it further but recent events have made me wonder as to the viability and advantages of doing so.   Having been married to a Thai for 16 years, with Thai children and working in Thailand from 2007 to 2014 , paying tax etc, but being now retired (although on extensions based on marriage) does that exclude me from the potential of achieving Thai  citizenship ?

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, Esso49 said:

Having been married to a Thai for 16 years, with Thai children and working in Thailand from 2007 to 2014 , paying tax etc, but being now retired (although on extensions based on marriage) does that exclude me from the potential of achieving Thai  citizenship ?

You would have to start working again to apply for Thai nationality. There is no way around that requirement.

[Esso49]

1 minute ago, ubonjoe said:

You would have to start working again to apply for Thai nationality. There is no way around that requirement.

Many thanks for that. So if I started a company with my wife etc and of course on a minimum salary then all would be fine for me to apply for citizenship. Would I have to be employed for a further 3 years though before application ?

[ubonjoe]

6 minutes ago, Esso49 said:

Many thanks for that. So if I started a company with my wife etc and of course on a minimum salary then all would be fine for me to apply for citizenship. Would I have to be employed for a further 3 years though before application ?

You would have to be working for 3 years to apply and while waiting for approval of your application.

[Esso49]

44 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

You would have to be working for 3 years to apply and while waiting for approval of your application.

many thanks again

[Weddings Parties Anything]

On 10/24/2018 at 9:06 AM, tangdio said:

Also, where can I find the rubric for re: the 50+ points needed?

And what other rules are not required for those with a Thai wife (singing national anthem, etc.)?

This has a good outline 

 

http://www.thaicitizenship.com/thai-citizenship-for-foreigners-married-to-thai-spouse/

[Neeranam]

On 12/7/2015 at 3:12 PM, asiasurfer said:

Thanks ubonjoe. That's a good link. Looks like I only have an issue with salary. Do you know by any chance if it is precisely 40K per month salary, or can it be an average over the whole year? I.e. some months I earn more, some months less...

Perhaps the most important thing is 3 years of 40k+ tax receipts.

 

Once you have that, it's pretty straightforward. 

[Neeranam]

On 10/24/2018 at 8:16 AM, ubonjoe said:

See the ongoing topic I mentioned for info about the points.

The Thai language requirement and singing do not apply if you are married to a Thai. But being able to speak and write does add points.

I was never asked to write Thai but got full points in the Thai language section. They did all of I could write.

[Neeranam]

On 12/14/2015 at 6:12 AM, KCPhuket said:

why in the world can they not allow us to apply for the Thai citizenship? We are contributing much more than a worker here paying taxes; more often than not!

I don't know why you think retired are contributing more than someone working here.

 

Care to elaborate?