education / family

[ArranP]

Place your children in International schools or if you cannot afford them, return back home ( UK ) to put your children into a local state school, tends to be the advice I've had regards education in Thailand.

I've recently returned to the UK I don't much relish it.

If I stay here until the children finish their schooling, approx 11 to 14 years, its unlikely they will follow me back to Thailand, my children would be in the UK, with me and their mother in Thailand.

If I returned to Thailand now, I would ( have to ) put my children into thai school, when they finish their schooling, they would most likely stay in Thailand with me and their mother.

[richard_smith237]

Which option do you think would give your children the best opportunities for their future ?

Your opening comments ring true: International Schools or if you can't afford it return home.

But there are other options which on the face of it seem viable. Bilingual Schools - some have a very good reputation: example.... http://www.amnuaysilpa.ac.th

Another option to consider is travel distance / time - We've just enrolled our child at the nearest International School (Australian International School) for Nursery & Kindergarten simply because it means no driving to and from schools - resulting in avoiding up to 1.5 hours per day in traffic.

His Junior and secondary education he will be moved to somewhere such as Pattana.

[jadee]

Just to give a different perspective to the OP, during my years here I've met several wealthy expats (engineers) who certainly could afford international school fees yet they had their kids study in bilingual schools. It's not my advice, but their logic was that their kids needed to be just as proficient in Thai as Thai kids. I pointed out that their kids would struggle to master English to the same level as a native English speaker but that didn't seem to phase them. They were all well-off and highly educated themselves so to each their own.

[ArranP]

UK - many students leave university to goto to work or go onto benefits, those that work struggle to rent or buy a home and meet the monthly bills.

Thai - many students leave university to goto work or live with the family, those that work struggle to rent or buy a home and meet the monthly bills.

International school mostly means working and living in the UK, which in my case would mean children living in UK with me and their mother in Thailand.

Some do return to Thailand but need good Thai language and culture.

[Scott]

Just to give a different perspective to the OP, during my years here I've met several wealthy expats (engineers) who certainly could afford international school fees yet they had their kids study in bilingual schools. It's not my advice, but their logic was that their kids needed to be just as proficient in Thai as Thai kids. I pointed out that their kids would struggle to master English to the same level as a native English speaker but that didn't seem to phase them. They were all well-off and highly educated themselves so to each their own.

Some years ago, there was an international study on bilingual education (sorry, I can't cite the study). I attended a seminar with a professor from the University of Hong Kong and she discussed the various types of schools.

The main advantage of bilingual schools is that students will not lose any proficiency in their native language, so if you are a native English speaker, your children will continue to perform in English as students in an English only educational environment. They will gain a great deal of proficiency in the 2nd language.

Of course, there are issues with the quality of the educational facility you chose and there is a significant variation in the schools, whether bilingual or (quasi) international.

[ArranP]

At the moment my income may struggle to cover the cost of an international school, a few month's it might be enough, then I might have a few months where its not enough. I need to have a sizeable surplus each month to feel confident enough for an international school, my children need to goto school, not just when I can afford it.

[huawei]

You have done the right thing by returning to the uk. They will have more opportunities, it's about how they see themselves, carry themselves, in Thailand it's too dogmatic,passive not individualistic enough.my daughter started off in the Thai system, then moved to an international school..uni in Bangkok..no desire to go abroad at that time, they are individuals just give them the choice..if you are a parent who is heavily involved in their kids education, then you could supplement their schooling here with " home schooling"....good luck..but hang in as long as you can. Make sure the mother speaks to them constantly in Thai.

[ArranP]

What about full Thai school, children would learn english from me, i'm not sure it would benefit them, the bilingual school in nakhon sawan, there is just one in the city, it maybe what they loose school time learning english because they already know it, at least to the standard that is being taught.

[huawei]

Education overall is terrible here..especially up country..can't you move to Bangkok or somewhere where the schooling and options are better. They may speak English but their writing, grammar etc..will suffer. Anyway the priority must be English especially with ASEAN integration on the horizon. If you live in Thailand, Thai will be everywhere they will absorb it naturally, English would be limited to just you. I went thru this same situation I just had to work like mad to pay the school fees..it's not forever. You however make a very valid point. If you put them in an international school make sure you can afford it all the way..otherwise it would be cruel to have to take them out..that was my biggest concern..

[ArranP]

I cannot guarantee my income will cover the cost of international school over the next 5 years.

I don't want to live in the UK.

I want the mother, lives in nakhon sawan, to be involved with the children.

[MaeJoMTB]

What about full Thai school, children would learn english from me, i'm not sure it would benefit them, the bilingual school in nakhon sawan, there is just one in the city, it maybe what they lose school time learning english because they already know it, at least to the standard that is being taught.

Both my kids are in Thai government schools.

17 year old girl looking to take the entrance exams at CMU (2nd in her class). Mae Rim Wittayacom.

4 year old boy, MaeJo Amphur Kindergarten.

Doing fine, speak English and Thai, no problems.

Village schools are nasty, but anything near the bigger towns is good enough.

Lots of posters on these forums live lives insulated from the general population and appear to be fearful of integration. You can read posts from these same guys complaining how Muslims in their home country fail to learn the language, children don't mix, etc.

It's embarrassing!

[gerryBScot]

If your kids are young it might not matter so much where your children are being schooled at the moment. I'm actually frightened by what passes for education in most Thai primary schools and I don't think it really gets much better at secondary. It really is primitive and I can't see how it provides children with any real basis for continuing education. It's not just the content of teaching, which is at best old-fashioned in any event, but it's also the values that prevail and which of necessity your children will pick up. Schooling your kids in the UK might not be very attractive to you personally but you are doing your kids a wonderful favour. Also there are only really a handful of top class international schools in Thailand, the rest are rubbish and there are undoubtedly better bilingual schools, better in terms of value and also the educational experience.

[ArranP]

If I stayed in the UK, it is unlikely as I see it I would ever return to live in Thailand. My children would be brought up and accustomed to the UK, its unlikely they would follow me back to Thailand at the age of 18 or 21. They would be in UK, mother and father would be in Thailand.

UK living, is it really all that better, it has its equivalent share of problems also, unemployment, stress, cold. People, including those with university degrees, struggle to pay the bills every month in the UK just as they do in Thailand.

In Thailand they would be near mother and father, we talk about education and don't much talk about regular contact with both mother and father. If I were to stay in UK, my children's contact with their mother would be very little. My parents tell me to not worry too much about education, the children will find their own way in life, don't overlook family contact as this is important.

[Scott]

What about full Thai school, children would learn english from me, i'm not sure it would benefit them, the bilingual school in nakhon sawan, there is just one in the city, it maybe what they loose school time learning english because they already know it, at least to the standard that is being taught.

Not a good idea. Children need to learn in the target language, not just learn to speak it. There is a whole lexicon, vocabulary and ways of expressing different ideas in different subject matter and that requires actually reading, writing and learning that subject in the target language.

Many Thai parents who send their children to an international school will be shocked when their child can't go to a Thai University because their Thai isn't quite good enough. They can go to an international program, but they will struggle in their own language.

There are exceptions of course, but it's best not to take the risk.

[fletchsmile]

What about full Thai school, children would learn english from me, i'm not sure it would benefit them, the bilingual school in nakhon sawan, there is just one in the city, it maybe what they loose school time learning english because they already know it, at least to the standard that is being taught.

Not a good idea. Children need to learn in the target language, not just learn to speak it. There is a whole lexicon, vocabulary and ways of expressing different ideas in different subject matter and that requires actually reading, writing and learning that subject in the target language.

Many Thai parents who send their children to an international school will be shocked when their child can't go to a Thai University because their Thai isn't quite good enough. They can go to an international program, but they will struggle in their own language.

There are exceptions of course, but it's best not to take the risk.

Tertiary education is also important to consider. As an expat do you really want your children to attend a Thai degree programme in a Thai university?

One advantage of doing secondary education in UK is that it will likely increase the chances of getting into a UK university at a lower cost,

[ArranP]

Salaries are higher in UK thsn Thailand but so are the costs, for quality of life i prefer my children to grow up and live in Thailand.

[fletchsmile]

Salaries are higher in UK thsn Thailand but so are the costs, for quality of life i prefer my children to grow up and live in Thailand.

Another factor is tax. I'd pay a lot more tax in the UK, particularly on investment income.

The big offset financially though is schooling in UK would be largely free. I'd send them to a normal, non-fee paying school. While international schools here may be comparable and sometimes exceed the quality of a free education in the UK, the Thai state schools (non-fee paying) can't hold a candle to a decent school back in the UK in terms of all round education.

Here in Thailand if I couldn't afford either an international school or a bi-lingual school (half-way), and my only option was a state school, I'd probably choose to move back to the UK.

Quality of life is a tough one. I'm really not sure on that. Our kids love the UK, for the parks, house with garden, people, snow, etc

Ethics and morals is another big factor. On that I'd prefer the UK. Most people I know learnt good morals in UK, and have learnt shall we say to bend the rules a little in Thailand, i.e learnt rules and selectively disapply them sometimes , although your conscience is still there. In Thailand, many Thais grow up ignoring rules, accepting corruption as normal.

Consider also opportunities and education, and equality. Most expats I know in Thailand have done well for themselves because of a decent education and upbringing in the UK. Work hard, study hard and you've got a good chance, regardless of where you come from, skin colour, and gender (albeit not perfect). Born in say the north of Uk is less affluent but you can do well for yourself and choose the path in life you want to follow. Born in NE Thailand with dark skin colour and your options are much more limited. You have your place in Thai society and Thai society clearly lets you know that, and makes it difficult to change that. In the UK you've far more options.

A spin off for that is gender. Thailand is still quite a male dominated society. As we have daughters, I have to wonder about that. On the other hand, with sons I'd be less concerned. UK I wouldn't even consider it as a factor. Let's be honest, it's also quite accepted to have mia nois, mia chao. mia gep, etc,

Cheers

Fletch

[fletchsmile]

One thing you've touched on Arran is you, your wife, your kids being in different countries. People do that for a variety of reasons. people also put kids in boarding schools, while pursuing careers etc.For some it works

For me, the number one thing would be our family being together. Choice of schools ranks after that. Given a choice between splitting our family (unless temporarily only), or a state school in Thailand, which I would try and avoid, I'd go for the state school and all being together.

Similarly I've turned down jobs, and probably limited my career to an extent by settling on Thailand, Being together is the most important thing for me. I can help plug any gaps in education, but either me or my wife being a gap in the kids life is something I'd really want to avoid if possible.

[ArranP]

Thank you Fletch, family being together is a benefit of living in Thailand.

I've done a lot of worrying about thai edication and I've adopted the following conclusion. UK school is a prelude to living and working in the UK, thai education is the prelude (for those that can't afford int school) to living and working in Thailand.

[DavisH]

What about full Thai school, children would learn english from me, i'm not sure it would benefit them, the bilingual school in nakhon sawan, there is just one in the city, it maybe what they loose school time learning english because they already know it, at least to the standard that is being taught.

Not a good idea. Children need to learn in the target language, not just learn to speak it. There is a whole lexicon, vocabulary and ways of expressing different ideas in different subject matter and that requires actually reading, writing and learning that subject in the target language.

Many Thai parents who send their children to an international school will be shocked when their child can't go to a Thai University because their Thai isn't quite good enough. They can go to an international program, but they will struggle in their own language.

There are exceptions of course, but it's best not to take the risk.

That's quite true, but I do know some students who manage to study in Thai programs after being in an EP. However, they generally supplement their school work with outside tutoring in Thai.

At the end of M3, I generally advise parents to move their kids to a Thai program for M4-M6 if they intend to study in Thai in university. If they want to study in an International program, they are better off studying in the EP for the remainder of school. Kids most likely to go overseas are better off in a (good) international school, where they can get a recognised international qualification (A-level, IB, etc). However, I've had a number of my students from our EP go overseas to study as well. Most generally stay in Thailand for their undergrad degree.

[DavisH]

Thank you Fletch, family being together is a benefit of living in Thailand.

I've done a lot of worrying about thai edication and I've adopted the following conclusion. UK school is a prelude to living and working in the UK, thai education is the prelude (for those that can't afford int school) to living and working in Thailand.

Remember that plenty of Thais have gone on to successful careers in Thailand, and quite a number go overseas to do postgraduate studies. At upper secondary, competition is fierce for the best Thai schools. A few of my students qualify each year and leave. They prefer to finish their education in Thai, as they want to get into medicine/law, etc, in a Thai university. That's their parent's choice anyway. I don't think the kids get much say in it.

[DavisH]

What about full Thai school, children would learn english from me, i'm not sure it would benefit them, the bilingual school in nakhon sawan, there is just one in the city, it maybe what they loose school time learning english because they already know it, at least to the standard that is being taught.

Not a good idea. Children need to learn in the target language, not just learn to speak it. There is a whole lexicon, vocabulary and ways of expressing different ideas in different subject matter and that requires actually reading, writing and learning that subject in the target language.

Many Thai parents who send their children to an international school will be shocked when their child can't go to a Thai University because their Thai isn't quite good enough. They can go to an international program, but they will struggle in their own language.

There are exceptions of course, but it's best not to take the risk.

Tertiary education is also important to consider. As an expat do you really want your children to attend a Thai degree programme in a Thai university?

One advantage of doing secondary education in UK is that it will likely increase the chances of getting into a UK university at a lower cost,

There is no problem studying in Thailand if he intention is to live and work in Thailand. My wife studied in Thailand (Bachelor and Masters), and then did her PhD in Australia. There is a lot of kudos given for Thais who have studied overseas. However, if a child did all of their education in England, for example, and wanted to return to work in Thailand, it would be more difficult. Do they have the professional language skills to compete? They also will not have the network that a lot of Thais use to get the best jobs. So there is no simple answer as it depends on a number of factors that we can't predict when your kid is still young.

[fletchsmile]

What about full Thai school, children would learn english from me, i'm not sure it would benefit them, the bilingual school in nakhon sawan, there is just one in the city, it maybe what they loose school time learning english because they already know it, at least to the standard that is being taught.

Not a good idea. Children need to learn in the target language, not just learn to speak it. There is a whole lexicon, vocabulary and ways of expressing different ideas in different subject matter and that requires actually reading, writing and learning that subject in the target language.

Many Thai parents who send their children to an international school will be shocked when their child can't go to a Thai University because their Thai isn't quite good enough. They can go to an international program, but they will struggle in their own language.

There are exceptions of course, but it's best not to take the risk.

Tertiary education is also important to consider. As an expat do you really want your children to attend a Thai degree programme in a Thai university?

One advantage of doing secondary education in UK is that it will likely increase the chances of getting into a UK university at a lower cost,

There is no problem studying in Thailand if he intention is to live and work in Thailand. My wife studied in Thailand (Bachelor and Masters), and then did her PhD in Australia. There is a lot of kudos given for Thais who have studied overseas. However, if a child did all of their education in England, for example, and wanted to return to work in Thailand, it would be more difficult. Do they have the professional language skills to compete? They also will not have the network that a lot of Thais use to get the best jobs. So there is no simple answer as it depends on a number of factors that we can't predict when your kid is still young.

For your average Thai working in Thai companies maybe less of a problem.

When you're talking expat or luk kreung kids I'd say there's a big difference.

Personally working in a professional industry I think very little of the quality of most Thai degrees, except perhaps the top half dozen. There's definitely an advantage to having studied overseas as you say. Most of the leaders, CEOs, CFOs etc from the top multinationals and professional capacities tend to either come from top universities or have overseas exposure of some form.

Also, think about the expats who been successful here. A large proportion, myself included, have "only" a foreign/ UK education. That equipped us much better to live and work other places in the world than a Thai degree would. I arrived here knowing zero Thai, nor did I have a Thai network. My education and professional skills put me ahead of local Thai peers in my field.

On the other hand, I don't hear of many Rajabat or Ramkamhaeng university students ahead in other countries and they will struggle to compete internationally for quality jobs in say UK in professional capacities. The ones that do well overseas and have only a Thai education, tend to have a foreign spouse to rely on initially.

So a UK education would equip someone for their life in the UK. It would also be more likely to equip them for life internationally, of which Thailand and other countries would be an option. There may be some ways they're at a disadvantage to Thai-Thais in Thai companies, but in some ways they will also have advantages. On the other hand Thai education more likely equips someone for Thai life, but doesn't do much for international opportunities or living outside Thailand.

Look around ASEAN for example, how many Thai leaders are their outside Thailand even in MNCs? On the other hand, quite a few foreigners in leadership roles in Thailand, Singapore, etc..

[ArranP]

Another example, myself, i left school at 16 with 3 GCSEs, started work at 16, at age of 40 was earning 600 pounds per day as a computer systems support engineer. Most if not all my computer experience I learnt on the job, from school i don't remember any physics chemistry biology trigonometry algebra etc, i do remember to read and write and basic math.

[honu]

It sounds like this decision is going to need to be based on all the factors mentioned, not just the one education choice, but I'll add my own experiences with Thai schooling, related to my son who is now 7.

My son initially did pre-school in a British International school here, and continued there through kindergarten and part of what seemed to relate to first grade in that system. The expense was really too much for us, on the order of a half a million baht per year, which is about half what the most expensive ones cost. We looked into different options and switched him over to one of the local Thai schools with the best academic reputation. Of course the transition was a shock for him, going from using English to Thai, from play based education (more play than education, really) to a whole day of desk based study, without the same after-school activities he'd came to expect.

There were other options, but then we live in Bangkok, probably the best place for education options in Thailand. We looked into Sathit schools as well, the elementary systems related to major universities that those use as a training center for teaching, and there were other bilingual local school options. After a year that involved a bit of struggle we moved him again to a unique type of school supported by the Thai royalty, not really an open option without a network channel for enrolement, which is finally working out well.

Related to language issues, he never was going to learn much Thai at the English school, and never would learn adequate English at the Thai schools. I read with him nearly on a daily basis, and he's been studying English for a few years now, and he speaks fluent English, equivalent to native speakers in their own countries, so he'll be ok with continued extra work on it. It helps that he's really bright, always at the top of his class wherever he goes, and a child with more limited potential might not get as far in the language they have less exposure to. He's still catching up in Thai, after nearly two years in Thai schools, even though he now speaks it nearly fluently, and can read and write it to a limited extent.

Related to education style and overall quality, the decent International schools probably are on par with schools back in the US (where I'm from), with better and worse aspects of those public schools based on location and local income levels, even though the idea is for them to be consistent. The two Thai school options I've been exposed to are hard to fully evaluate since he's young still, and of course the judgment about the International schools was just a guess on my part for the same reason.

Related to Thai universities, my wife attended Chulalongkorn, for a Bachelors and a Masters, and we met when she was going to the University of Hawaii for a second Masters. Her academic skills and knowledge base were just awful, but then that's where a lower level US based education could lead as well. After a year of living in the US doing remedial English language training she could barely speak English, and even today her writing is on the rough side, clear to understand, but definitely not what you'd expect from someone with a Masters from a US state university. She can work here but would be ill prepared for any employment in an English speaking country, even though we've communicated in English for around a decade now.

It's a difficult task to weigh out how these decisions will play out later in life, and it is strange trying to plan the entire future of a young child. I personally would place family contact over education issues and try to make up gaps in the latter based on extra training, and keep an eye open for shifts in options, but that all gets to be a judgment call.

[fletchsmile]

Great post honu. Thanks for sharing it