Suggestions for a small, semi-powerful scooter with disc brakes?

[jimi]

If you want to use the requirement for a rear disc your purchasing lode stone then Ok but if you like the Grand Filano and the only thing stopping you is its lack of disc then maybe think again as the drum will be good enough to stop the bike.

Actually, this discussion here in this thread has been a bit of a wake up call for me. Before I was convinced that it was only strictly an economic reason to use drum brakes, and that it was the cheapskate option. Now I am starting to think that maybe a rear drum brake is enough for my bike. Although I will still argue that disc brakes are better than drum brakes.

The Yamaha Grand Filano seems nice, but still wish it had more power. One reason for buying a new scooter is that I want to have some more power, and going from 110cc to 125cc seems like I might not even notice the difference.

So, even if I might move the "rear disc brake" requirement down from "must have" to "nice to have", I still think I will keep the "150cc" requirement on the "must have" list. Vespa has a few 150 cc models that look nice, and are in my price range, however I am not sure if the weels are too small. And I just noticed Yamaha S-Max which looks nice, but not sure if it is available here, also it is quite heavy.

G/F will prefer NMax?

Not sure, but I would never let someone elses taste weigh stronger than my own taste, even if it is my girlfriend.

I only mentioned her in the original post because it would be good if the scooter I buy isn't too big or heavy for her to handle, if she happens to need to borrow it some time.

[jimi]

If your back wheel doesn't lock up easily, that means you are no using the front brake at all.

Well, if I want to test the performance of the back brake, I obviously only apply the back brake.

[VocalNeal]

So, even if I might move the "rear disc brake" requirement down from "must have" to "nice to have", I still think I will keep the "150cc" requirement on the "must have" list. Vespa has a few 150 cc models that look nice, and are in my price range, however I am not sure if the weels are too small. And I just noticed Yamaha S-Max which looks nice, but not sure if it is available here, also it is quite heavy.

I think then The Nmax is coming out tops. But there is a 25,000 baht premium over the Filano.

I think Vespa dropped the 150 here in favour of the 3-valve 125. but I've been wrong before.

SH150 is another 10,000 on top of the Nmax. It's advantage is the 16 inch wheels, which in theory would give a better choice of aftermarket tires.

I must admit between SH and NMax would be a difficult choice for me. Maybe SH if only to be different as one doesn't see many!

[Gary A]

I much prefer the flat floor scooters. In the probably unlikely event that you get hit, at least you won't lose a leg. It's not a pretty sight when you see a rider who was hit by a vehicle and had his leg between his bike and the vehicle.

[jimi]

A rear disc brake on a small bike is a waste. I think they put them on for looks. More than 70 percent of your braking comes from the front brake. A drum rear brake has plenty of braking power because the rear wheel has very little traction. The bike's weight shifts forward when braking. If you are using gears to slow down you will notice that you will get a little tire chirp every time you down shift. There is benefit from ABS at the rear and that's likely why high performance bikes use a rear disc. ABS needs hydraulic brakes to work. The rear brake is useful at low speeds and when on stones, gravel or sand. Using the front brake on a sand covered road can put you down quickly. ABS is great if you are willing to spend the extra money, then you will have disc brakes front and back.

So... What you are saying is that ABS disc brakes front and back, can have an advantage even on a 150 cc bike, at some conditions? That's basically what I said/thought all along.

If the benefit is enough to motivate an higher price, is a totally different matter though. And the limited range of those kind of scooter models is also a different matter, separated from the technical discussion. It may well be so that given the current models out there, and their prices, I simply must forget a rear disc brake. That still doesn't make it so that it is undisputable that an rear disc brake (with ABS, if you will) woudn't have some real technical advantage even on a 150 cc bike. Just saying...

Edited January 5, 2016 by jimi

[jimi]

Well, a small update is in order. I have now gone through all the potential candidates, spec and look wise. Only from the computer though, due to time shortage and maybe a little bit of laziness too.

Also, I have tweaked my requirements a bit. Moving rear disc brake down to nice-to-have, making large tires a must-have, as well as the open foot (step through) platform.

Still, the "perfect" bike is nowhere to be seen. I seem to find deal-breakers or near deal-breakers with every single candidate. But I try and summarize my findings so far:

Top candidates:

• Honda SH150 - Engine power and wheel/tire size is perfect for me. Frame design is almost perfect, looks is OK but will need some tasteful customisation. The [near] deal-breaker is that the high price considering it's looks and build style feels nothing special. Also, it seems that it might be difficult to find it in a shop here (and what about repares in the future?).

• Yamaha Nouvo SX - Engine power and wheel/tire size is perfect for me. Looks and frame design are both almost perfect for me. The [near] deal-breaker is the weaker engine, 125 cc (10.4 horsepower). Also, it seems to be discontinued.

So, all things considered. I am down to two potential candidates, but neither makes me feel like "oh, I really, really want it!". But maybe there are tweaks out there that could improve these candidates enought for me to want one of them?

Like, you think some good Chiang Mai bike workshop could spice up the SH150 so it looks really stylish, without it costing a fortune? Think GTS 150 3Vie Special Edition:



Or, can I hand in the Nouvo SX to a workshop, and they tune or replace the engine, giving me the extra power I am looking for? (Without costing a fortune.)


P.S. My consolidation prices goes to:

Vespa GTS 150 3Vie - Superb looks, just in my taste. Deal braker: The small wheels.

Yamaha Grand Filano Supremo - Almost top notch when it comes to looks and frame design. Deal braker: The small wheels, and the weak engine, 125 cc.

Yamaha N-Max - Engine power is perfect. Looks are OK, nothing more. Deal braker: Too big (for parking and super tight traffic jams), and no open foot platform.

Honda PCX - Same points as for Yamaha N-Max above.

[guzzi850m2]

Why is the small wheels a deal breaker?

Yamaha and BMW make some big +500cc scooters that can go 160km/h+ and they also have small wheels.

If looks are so important to you, get the Vespa man and stop worrying so much.

The only problem when filtering in traffic on my pcx are the mirrors, they are big and stick out quite a bit but very nice to have when up and rolling.

[macknife]

The Nouvo SX125 is not a step through either.

[papa al]

The Nouvo SX125 is not a step through either.

papa 'steps thru' his YNSX all the time.

too decrepit to swing leg over seat

5 5

[tozmos]

I have a Filano Grande & ride a few days a week 33kms into central Bangkok. Great through traffic, brakes are more than good enough, good acceleration and around 80kmh. Lots of storage under the seat so no need for backpack with laptop on my back. For the money excellent buy.

[jimi]

Why is the small wheels a deal breaker?

Yamaha and BMW make some big +500cc scooters that can go 160km/h+ and they also have small wheels.

I was under the impression that bigger wheels are safer and more comfortable when riding on dodgy road conditions, like going over pot holes. Or when riding at higher speeds.

Source, for example: http://ridingsafely.com/readiness1.html

Sure, the main usage for my scooter is inner city (but that still involves pot holes), but occationally I go for a 1-2 hour trip that involves going on the highway. Sure, I don't go at speeds anyway near the big bikes, but even a moderately 80 km/h can feel a bit unstable at times on my current Yamaha Fino, so it just doesn't seem right to choose a new scooter that has even smaller wheels than the 14 inch wheels on the Fino.

Or is there other factors here, that I have missed? Can the rather small weels (12 inches) on the Vespa GTS still travel comfortably over potholes like a bike with 16 inch wheels, and travel stably and comfortably at 90-100 km/h? Because the tires are wider, or because of some difference in the chassi? Compared to the Fino or similar bike, I mean.

Besides, what 500+ cc scooters have 12 inch wheels (or smaller)? I can't seem to find any model with wheels smaller than 15 inches, which in my book is still quite large (for a scooter).

If looks are so important to you, get the Vespa man and stop worrying so much.

Surely you wouldn't buy a new car without thinking about how it looks? If I'm spending ~100.000 baht on a new scooter, I sure don't want it to look bland.

The only problem when filtering in traffic on my pcx are the mirrors, they are big and stick out quite a bit but very nice to have when up and rolling.

Well, I often travel in traffic where even the small Yamaha Fino just barely can squeeze through, with inches to spare to the curb on one side, and still sometimes having to stop completely in order to twist the handle bar and lean the bike to get past the side view mirrors of a car. I haven't measured or anything, but would guess maybe 2 feet between the curb and the car. It's not an uncommon situation on the roads I travel here in Chiang Mai, like Huaw Gaew, Nimmanheiminda and sometimes even Chanal road and "super highway" (road 11) when they are having construction work.

[jimi]

The Nouvo SX125 is not a step through either.

huh! Thanks for pointing that out. I must have been a bit inattentive when looking at the photos of it before. Also, a little bird whispered in my ear that this bike's engine can't be tuned or replaced to get more power. So, that basically moves it down to the "consolidation prize" group.

[jimi]

I have a Filano Grande & ride a few days a week 33kms into central Bangkok. Great through traffic, brakes are more than good enough, good acceleration and around 80kmh. Lots of storage under the seat so no need for backpack with laptop on my back. For the money excellent buy.

Yeah, but I basically get all that with my current Fino. I want something that is a step up in power and wheel/tire size.

[Issanman]

The Grand Filano looks very nicely finished when viewed up-close and the newer ones can burn E85.

52,500฿

[Gary A]

ABS is a great system. It can stop you from having a nasty fall. ABS is much more important for the front wheel. Keep in mind that the front wheel has so much braking power that it is possible to do a front wheelie and the back wheel will be totally off the pavement and possibly over your head. Locking up the back wheel is controllable, locking up the front wheel is normally NOT controllable at least with a novice rider. Buy a bike with a disc front brake and the largest wheels. Small wheels do not handle potholes well. I don't understand why people buy bikes with small wheels. Those small fat tires may look nice but they are not safe.

[guzzi850m2]

Go and try see if you can rent the scooters you are interested in, take them outside city limits and see how stable they fell and how comfortable you are.

Check under the seat for handy storage, can it run E85 and so on.

I often go app 90-100 km/h 2up on my pcx and I think its stable enough.

For me, I don't really care too much how it looks; stable/good brakes/comfortable/power are the most important to me.

So again if I was you: N-Max & PCX would be my choice. I ride a lot in Pattaya down town in very very heavy weekend traffic on my pcx and as I said, it's the mirrors that sets the limit. I see a lot of scooters in Bangkok that uses short mirrors but I don't want that. Despite some scooters looks bigger that others there are in reality very small difference in size, especially the width, the higher end ones are longer, I hate riding my wife's Scoppy, I fell so cramped on it and It fells cheap too compared to the very smooth/comfortable pcx.

Well it's off-course your choice so up to you.

[macknife]

If 125cc isn't enough then you have limited choice.

Honda PCX150 Not a step through but lots of space under the seat.

Vespa 150 Pricey and has small wheels.

The Nmax is 125cc but apparently the power is similar to the PCX, smaller wheels than the PCX I think. Not sure about storage.

If I were you, I'd get a PCX or NMAX and just get a Shad/Givi box for the back (at least 33L) and you'll have everything you need. Shopping, longer trips etc

Both slightly larger than the average scooter (I really don't think you'll notice that much)but a step through 150cc doesn't exist (that's still sold here)

[jimi]

Go and try see if you can rent the scooters you are interested in, take them outside city limits and see how stable they fell and how comfortable you are.

Well, I went to a few different stores today, and some rental places. I managed to get my first look IRL of the Honda SH150. And I wasn't impressed by what I saw. Looked really bland/booring. Sure, it was well worn (rental), but still. Maybe, just maybe, if I would be able to find it new, in a different color (this one was white). But since I only have seen it in this one place, I don't have my hopes up that I will be able to find a new one (and I am not prepared to buy one without seeing it IRL first).

Also, by chance, I stumbled upon a Vespa store on nimman a while later. Some of them Vespas sure look nice. If I ever would abandon my big wheels requirement, I would definately take a closer look at the Vespas. But still, would want to rent one first, but can't seem to find a place that has Vespas for rent. Anybody know? Of course I could have asked in the Vespa store, but I was hungry when I went past there today, so didn't even go in, I just looked through the window for a while, then went to grab something to eat.

For me, I don't really care too much how it looks; stable/good brakes/comfortable/power are the most important to me.

Well, looks isn't on the top of my priority list either. But it all comes down to finding a good combination of technical specs, looks and price. If I find a bike that is more or less perfect in both specs and looks, then I am willing to pay a quite high price for it. Otherwise, if I find a bike that has perfect or almost perfect specs, but booring/bland looks, then I would basically only buy it if it is really cheap (like 50k baht, and not for a used one). Sadly, so far, I haven't found a single bike that is either.

But... like I said before... if all else fails, and I still feel a strong need for a new bike, I guess I just would have to forsake the big wheels requirement and go for something like the stylish Vespa GTS 150 3Vie Special Edition (even though ~150.000 baht is quite expensive for a small scooter!), and just try and avoid the potholes and try to not ride too fast too much. At least I know my gf would be happy about that choice (she loves the Vespas). But I'm sure that every time I hit a pot hole, or every time I hit the highway, I would think to myself "oh, if I only had found a bike with bigger better wheels"... Hmmm...

So again if I was you: N-Max & PCX would be my choice. I ride a lot in Pattaya down town in very very heavy weekend traffic on my pcx and as I said, it's the mirrors that sets the limit. I see a lot of scooters in Bangkok that uses short mirrors but I don't want that. Despite some scooters looks bigger that others there are in reality very small difference in size, especially the width, the higher end ones are longer, I hate riding my wife's Scoppy, I fell so cramped on it and It fells cheap too compared to the very smooth/comfortable pcx.

I don't know how small the Scoppy is, but my Yamaha Fino is basically the perfect size for me. I sit in a perfect (for me) upright position. Feels like I'm sitting in a comfortable office chair, almost. Whenever I have walked close to the N-Max or PCX, I instinctively feel "this is not the bike for me", by the look and the size. And the lack of open foot platform... I really like being able to move my feet around, and even having them basically touching each other sometimes. I really dislike the thought of being forced to have my feet at a specific position, or forced to having my legs at a specific angle. So N-Max and PCX are definately out of the picture. I'm sure they are really good bikes, but no bike fits everyone, and these doesn't fit me.

[jimi]

If 125cc isn't enough then you have limited choice.

Well, I am the first to admit that I am not technically savy when it comes to motorbikes/scooters, or engines in general. 110, 125, 150 etc are just numbers to me. I know that the Fino I have now has 110 cc, and I want something stronger than that. Maybe it is just silly thinking, but 125 doesn't seem much of a difference compared to 110. But maybe there are other factors? It is not important for me that the bike has a sticker with the "150 cc" on it. As long as it is noticably stronger than the Fino, and have noticably better acceleration and top speed, then I would be happy with whatever numbers are in the specs.

But there is one thing that baffles me a bit. I have heard from a few people now, that some/most scooters can't have the engine replaced or even tuned, in order to get more power. If it is one thing I remember from my moped days when I was younger, it is the illegal engine tuning that many performed on their mopeds, to make them more powerful and faster. If some moderatly knowledgable teenagers could modify their mopeds this way, surely a professional workshop can do the same with the average modern scooter? If not, can you explain why? (Different engine technology? Too dangerous? To expensive?)

but a step through 150cc doesn't exist (that's still sold here)

Actually... I found one more brand today, that at least looks promising on paper. The brand is Syn, and some threads here on TV seem to indicate that it actually is a quite good brand. And they seem to have at least three step though 150 cc models... Sym Symphony SR150, Sym Fiddle II 150, and Sym Fighter 150. I have no idea if they are available here, but a thai friend of mine will try and locate some shop either here in Chiang Mai, or in his town.

Edited January 6, 2016 by jimi

[Namplik]

If 125cc isn't enough then you have limited choice.

Honda PCX150 Not a step through but lots of space under the seat.

Vespa 150 Pricey and has small wheels.

The Nmax is 125cc but apparently the power is similar to the PCX, smaller wheels than the PCX I think. Not sure about storage.

If I were you, I'd get a PCX or NMAX and just get a Shad/Givi box for the back (at least 33L) and you'll have everything you need. Shopping, longer trips etc

Both slightly larger than the average scooter (I really don't think you'll notice that much)but a step through 150cc doesn't exist (that's still sold here)

The NMAX is 155 cc and are the strongest "small sccoter"

[VocalNeal]

I have heard from a few people now, that some/most scooters can't have the engine replaced or even tuned, in order to get more power.

There are thousands of modified scooters here. In Bangkok there is a whole market dedicated to such. Fino is one of the most commonly modified. You could get your Fino converted to 300 if you wanted. 150cc should be easy. 180 is a popular size.

http://www.motorcycle.in.th/article.php/Turning-a-Yamaha-Fino-into-a-Racer

Most modern 125/150 bikes are designed as 125. So even a PCX 150 is only about as powerful as the new NMax. Top speed wise delta between PCX150 and PCX125 is marginal. 150 only really exists because in the US bikes need to be bigger than 150 to go on the Expressway.

You could buy a Honda Clicki125 and put an aftermarket variator on it and it would be quicker than a stock PCX150.

But I do admit the choices are somewhat difficult to decipher.

How about a "real" bike like a Yamaha 150 Exciter. Sure you have to change gear so it will ruin those pointy, shiny dress shoes but...

[papa al]

YNSX125

I'm assuming you mean the Honda NSX 125? It failes way to many of my requirements, so it is not a candidate I'm affraid. I mean, it's not even a scooter!

It's as if I were asking for a nice Itallian restaurant, and you gave me a recommendation for a spanish Tapas restaurant.

Ass u me.

!Lo ciento!

Yamaha Nouvo SX 125

[jimi]

I have heard from a few people now, that some/most scooters can't have the engine replaced or even tuned, in order to get more power.

There are thousands of modified scooters here. In Bangkok there is a whole market dedicated to such. Fino is one of the most commonly modified. You could get your Fino converted to 300 if you wanted. 150cc should be easy. 180 is a popular size.

http://www.motorcycle.in.th/article.php/Turning-a-Yamaha-Fino-into-a-Racer

Most modern 125/150 bikes are designed as 125. So even a PCX 150 is only about as powerful as the new NMax. Top speed wise delta between PCX150 and PCX125 is marginal. 150 only really exists because in the US bikes need to be bigger than 150 to go on the Expressway.

You could buy a Honda Clicki125 and put an aftermarket variator on it and it would be quicker than a stock PCX150.

Thank you! You are the first one in this thread that states that this kind if thing is possible. All others have either avoided the subject, or flat out stated that tuning is not possible. I was almost starting to think that the manufactures had started casting the engine and the frame body in one single piece of metal, and designing the engine so that it simply can't be tuned.

Although, even though the tuning choice exists theoretically, it still would come down to finding a really good workshop, that could handle that for me, and doing it really professionally, so that it still would be safe to drive. So, unless someone could give a solid suggestion of such a workshop, I would keep it as just a theoretical option that I probably won't use.

Mind you, if I would do it, I most likely would choose a new Click 125 and only have them tune it slightly, like going from 125 to ~140-150 cc, just enough to give it a little bit extra umpf in terms of acceleration and top speed without going crazy.

But I do admit the choices are somewhat difficult to decipher.

Yes, or at least it is a bit difficult to figure out the current supply in physical stores in this country. I guess I am still stuck in the western mindset, where many physical stores have most or all of their stock visible online, making it a breeze to figure out where I need to go to look at Cool Gadget X or Fancy Thingamajig Y, and be able to buy it right away if I want to.

I mean, sure... If all the scooter stores where in one big cluster, one after another, then I could really try and visit every one of them, systematically. But they are scattered everywhere, with no comprehensive index that I am aware of. I think I have visited about 15 shops this week, all over town.

How about a "real" bike like a Yamaha 150 Exciter. Sure you have to change gear so it will ruin those pointy, shiny dress shoes but...

No, bikes like that is not an option for me. I want the open foot platform that I have grown accustomed to. And I'm not interested in a manual gear either. They just seem a hazzle if your not used to them, and I don't really see the benefit for me and the way I ride.

Oh... and I only wear "pointy, shiny dress shoes" when I wear a suit, and that is basically only at weddings and funerals (and the last time I went to one was years ago).

[jimi]

YNSX125

I'm assuming you mean the Honda NSX 125? It failes way to many of my requirements, so it is not a candidate I'm affraid. I mean, it's not even a scooter!

It's as if I were asking for a nice Itallian restaurant, and you gave me a recommendation for a spanish Tapas restaurant.

Ass u me.

!Lo ciento!

Yamaha Nouvo SX 125

ok, ok! I'm sorry then! But in my defence, "YNSX125" isn't really easily comprehensible for someone who doesn't have the know-how already, something I clearly don't have since I started this thread

[jimi]

As I've said before, the Honda PCX and Yamaha N-Max both are off my list of candidates. Although I haven't mentioned the Yamaha S-Max, which looks promising with it's open foot platform. It's still likely too big/heavy for my taste, although I would have to try it before I know that. But I haven't seen it in any store, and I can only assume it is not sold here at all...

I really hate that my basic requirements seem to be so different to the average scooter buyer here. Or let me rephrase that... I really hate that other people have so strange requirements!

[papa al]

-It is possible to get a Click 'bored out' [oversized barrel/piston] to larger CC.

Expensive.

Voids warranty of course.

-Possible to change variatior weights to cause it to run a higher RP.M;

Very cheap.

Reduces fuel economy of course.

Will not increase top speed.

The S-max costs 130,000baht, outside Thailand.

'other people' don't have strange requirements.

You do.

Assume that.

Edited January 10, 2016 by papa al

[jimi]

-It is possible to get a Click 'bored out' [oversized barrel/piston] to larger CC.

Expensive.

How expensive? Thai labour is cheap, and even the hour cost for a really good professional mechanic here would still be considered cheap by western standards. But let's say I find a good workshop, where it takes two professional mechanics 2 hours to do this, at 2000 baht per hour and person. Would this be reasonable? That's still only 8000 baht, ie about 15% extra on the Click 125i price. Ie the total price would still be well within my budget, and honestly I think the cost of the labour would be even less then my guesstimate here.

So for me, it most likely wouldn't be the cost that would be the problem, but finding the right workshop for the job.

Voids warranty of course.

Naturally. Sad, but in itself it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me.

The S-max costs 130,000baht, outside Thailand.

That may be so. But if it was sold here I at least would try it out. And if I really loved it, I would buy it for that price.

'other people' don't have strange requirements.

You do.

Assume that.

I guess you thought I was 100% serious in that post, even with the smiley?

But yes... there was of course an ouns of seriousness in that post. Since all my main requirements are quite common taken separately... From observing scooter and motorbike drivers here, and in different discussion forums online, many people here like the open foot platform, many people like bikes that are small and light enough to squeeze through really tight traffic jams*, many people like a little bit extra power (even though they mostly drift towards the dirt bikes or big bikes), many farangs like safer bikes (like bigger better wheels, and better quality wider tubeless tires) while still not being boring to ride, and many people like buying something that looks quite nice. The only thing strange about my requirements is that I happen to want all of them at once. Silly me

* Yesterday this was clearer than ever, when the traffic to and from the airport was worse than ever (at least for me) because of the Children's Day events. Didn't see a single bigger bike squeze through between the narrow gaps, but loads and loads of regular scooter size bikes.

[canthai55]

As said above - rent different ones. Pick the one you like. Buy it. Why talk about modifying a brand new bike when the same performance is available in a fully warrantied bike ?

[sebastion]

If you spend a little more than your 100k budget you can get the Suzuki Burgman 200cc. Very nice bike. Suzuki has them on sale now 119k.

Ticks all your boxes.

http://www.thaisuzuki.co.th/bigbike/bigbike.php?id_product=125

Edited January 10, 2016 by sebastion

[Namplik]

Burgman 200 is not a regular "flat bed" scooter, small wheels too....