Maj-Gen Sansern says government has no money to subsidize rubber price

[candide]

The quote I put explicitly refers to protests aiming at getting rid of YL, not the protests for higher price that occured in 2013.

Anyway my initial questionning was:

"I wonder how long this government will be able to hold this position in front of one of their main supporter base" (precised later: rubber plant farmers from the South)

Does anyone have a comment to write about it?

They are the army... they can hold this forever if they wanted, as long as they are as strict as they are now they can prevent masses of people forming and blocking roads and stuff. I doubt people really want to go up against the army as long as they have loyal troops and guns protesters don't stand a chance. Also now they go after the leaders and that makes a big difference before the leaders thought they were immune and now its them that get arrested.. so they are al ot more careful now that they can''t have others take the fall for them.

I was not so much thinking about possible violent protests. I was more concerned with the "political support" aspect.

[robblok]

The quote I put explicitly refers to protests aiming at getting rid of YL, not the protests for higher price that occured in 2013.

Anyway my initial questionning was:

"I wonder how long this government will be able to hold this position in front of one of their main supporter base" (precised later: rubber plant farmers from the South)

Does anyone have a comment to write about it?

They are the army... they can hold this forever if they wanted, as long as they are as strict as they are now they can prevent masses of people forming and blocking roads and stuff. I doubt people really want to go up against the army as long as they have loyal troops and guns protesters don't stand a chance. Also now they go after the leaders and that makes a big difference before the leaders thought they were immune and now its them that get arrested.. so they are al ot more careful now that they can''t have others take the fall for them.

I was not so much thinking about possible violent protests. I was more concerned with the "political support" aspect.

There is a coup.. they don't need political support they don't have voters they have guns.

[geriatrickid]

Hmmmmm... I wonder how long this government will be able to hold this position in front of one of their main supporter base...

For as long as it wishes. It does not require political support, just complacency and obedience.

Unlike the previous Yingluck government, the military supports the current administration.

Also, the former self appointed ruler of the southern corrupt region is sidelined. I think he values his well being and assets.

Rather droll though. When the former Yingluck government said no, we were treated to a lengthy diatribe against it.

Major General Sansern is of course correct. I hope the current government does not give in.

Edited January 11, 2016 by geriatrickid

[djayz]

It's about high time that a Thai government will say enough is enough, these handouts never end

as more and more people from all walks of life in Thailand become to depend and demand that the

government will act and be a nanny to their silly and irresponsible life style and wrong decision

when it comes to farming and surviving in this country, no other country in the world offer such support

of free money, why Thailand?

"no other country in the world offer such support"... You obviously haven't heard of the Common Agricultural Policy (more commonly known as "CAP") in the EU. Google it. They handed out Euro 59 billion in 2010 to farmers across the continent in subsidies.

[djayz]

Farmers, always moaning about handouts but when it goes well ( a few years ago) they spend all their earning and then when the world market goes bad they expect the taxpayer to pay up.

Same like the rice farmers, when will they learn the world market dictates the prices and if they want to cut out the middle men they have to form cooperatives like they do in other countries.

Its always the same with farmers.. give us money or else. You don't see many other groups of people in a given profession being that militant and willing to disrupt the lives of others for their own gain. Farmers the world over are some of the most militant people there are (just look at French farmers, even Dutch ones).

Help them to switch but that is a good thing but don't poor money into something that wont change. This is one good thing about this government they don't have to fear the farmers and spend all the tax money on them.

One note.. as i do have problems with the increased military spending.. they should have frozen the military budget too.

(I grew up among farmers in the Netherlands so I know how they think)

In principle I agree with you, but I strongly didagree with your first paragraph. Think back to the financial crisis a few years back (to mention just one). The banker w**kers enjoyed decades of profits and generous bonuses, but when things got tight, they expected taxpayers to bail them out.

It's not just farmers who make mistakes and expect (need?) financial assistance.

[robblok]

Farmers, always moaning about handouts but when it goes well ( a few years ago) they spend all their earning and then when the world market goes bad they expect the taxpayer to pay up.

Same like the rice farmers, when will they learn the world market dictates the prices and if they want to cut out the middle men they have to form cooperatives like they do in other countries.

Its always the same with farmers.. give us money or else. You don't see many other groups of people in a given profession being that militant and willing to disrupt the lives of others for their own gain. Farmers the world over are some of the most militant people there are (just look at French farmers, even Dutch ones).

Help them to switch but that is a good thing but don't poor money into something that wont change. This is one good thing about this government they don't have to fear the farmers and spend all the tax money on them.

One note.. as i do have problems with the increased military spending.. they should have frozen the military budget too.

(I grew up among farmers in the Netherlands so I know how they think)

In principle I agree with you, but I strongly didagree with your first paragraph. Think back to the financial crisis a few years back (to mention just one). The banker w**kers enjoyed decades of profits and generous bonuses, but when things got tight, they expected taxpayers to bail them out.

It's not just farmers who make mistakes and expect (need?) financial assistance.

Just as bad what the bankers did.. no excuse there. But in the end why should the taxpayer pay for other people's mistake be they bankers or farmers.

[dbrenn]

For once, I believe him. They spent all the money on new (and highly necessary) military hardware.

I guess you didn't download and read the 30MB PDF with the Thai National Budget in brief 2016?

Who would care enough to bother.

Well, one would expect at least those who's posts suggest a level of understanding and knowledge of the financial situation the government is in, would have digested the document and maybe even gone through the dozen or so other document (which are provided in Thai only).

Wow - a Junta supporter. I thought that there were none left, that they had all realised the error of their ways and slunk off.

To your point, I agree that submarines are essential spending for Thailand, and are much more important than the welfare of rubber farmers. The rubber farmers, and assorted peasantry from the south, came in useful for blocking roads during the protests for months on end, in the sweltering heat. Now that the military is in absolute control, who cares?

[attento]

I'm sorry,it's not only emerging markets who subsidize their farmers.Farmers in Europe are heavily subsidized by their governments...

Half of the EC budget goes to agriculture, helping depressed areas, etc., etc. That's 75 billion EURO.

Mind you that's half of the 1.4% of the 28 member states' GNI. The European Community has a wee bit more money to spend on this apart from having a proper administration and auditing system.

mmmmmmmm, I am sure you meant that as a joke. I could see the funny side, anyway.

The EU accounts have not been passed by the auditors for nearly 20 years !

The EU shambles ( which you describe kindly as "proper Administration" ) is totally incapable of producng a legal set of accounts, yet have the temerity to interfere in the running of legal businesses throughout the EU. No other business or organisation in the EU is permitted to exist in that illegal manner.

And yet, so many of our fellow contributors laugh at corruption in Thailand.

p.s, do you know any more good jokes ?

[halloween]

Wow - a Junta supporter. I thought that there were none left, that they had all realised the error of their ways and slunk off.

To your point, I agree that submarines are essential spending for Thailand, and are much more important than the welfare of rubber farmers. The rubber farmers, and assorted peasantry from the south, came in useful for blocking roads during the protests for months on end, in the sweltering heat. Now that the military is in absolute control, who cares?

Are you somehow under the impression that PTP's rice scam worked out well for rice farmers, or for the national finances?

Why would you repeat the same mistake for a different commodity? Expecting a different result?

Edited January 11, 2016 by halloween

[LannaGuy]

damn just read Suthep is supporting the rubber farmers so I'm going to have to re-think this now as I can't be on the same side as that loathsome creature

[baboon]

The quote I put explicitly refers to protests aiming at getting rid of YL, not the protests for higher price that occured in 2013.

Anyway my initial questionning was:

"I wonder how long this government will be able to hold this position in front of one of their main supporter base" (precised later: rubber plant farmers from the South)

Does anyone have a comment to write about it?

They are the army... they can hold this forever if they wanted, as long as they are as strict as they are now they can prevent masses of people forming and blocking roads and stuff. I doubt people really want to go up against the army as long as they have loyal troops and guns protesters don't stand a chance. Also now they go after the leaders and that makes a big difference before the leaders thought they were immune and now its them that get arrested.. so they are al ot more careful now that they can''t have others take the fall for them.

As far as I can see it, they or anyone else can only hold power indefinitely if they are prepared to kill as many people as necessary in order do so. I wonder if they are, in 2016..?

[rubl]

"they had been told that ousting her it would lead to higher rubber price"

I assume you can support this statement with some reputable links ?

BTW

2013-09-23

"Thailand’s decision to expand subsidies for rice and rubber farmers to quell protests is undermining efforts to control rising debt, even as governments in neighboring Malaysia and Indonesia cut back support programs."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-09-22/thai-farmers-hooked-on-subsidies-test-yingluck-southeast-asia

I guess also the ungrateful rice farmers wanted to ouster Ms. Yingluck?

Apparently you consider Bloomberg as reputable enough, so here it is!

"Manoon joined the protests in Bangkok against Yingluck’s government that eventually led to the military takeover after protest leaders said getting rid of her would lead to higher rubber prices. Now, he says he and his friends feel betrayed.“It’s like a broken promise,” he said. “They don’t care about us at all.”"

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-21/happiness-eludes-thailand-s-divided-regions-as-farmers-struggle

There is a difference between the rubber farmers protesting for higher prices and those who joined the PDRC led protests to oust the Yingluck administration

"With the market price (around 70 baht a kg back then in 2013) and the subsidies, the farmers got between 80 to 90 Baht a kg. While the protests continued and even got more violent, enough farmers accepted it and with the remaining farmers losing goodwill after the violence, they essentially ended the protest."

http://asiancorrespondent.com/2014/10/with-declining-rubber-prices-what-will-rubber-farmers-do-in-thailand/

The quote I put explicitly refers to protests aiming at getting rid of YL, not the protests for higher price that occured in 2013.

Anyway my initial questionning was:

"I wonder how long this government will be able to hold this position in front of one of their main supporter base" (precised later: rubber plant farmers from the South)

Does anyone have a comment to write about it?

Ah, you mean you just select the part convenient for your point of view? That's no problem., then I will ignore the rice farmers who wanted to protests but were 'convinced' by red-shirts to go home.

As for 'main supporter base, well that's your assumption based on the part you liked. A wider use of info doesn't have the South rubber farmers as this governments power base. So, it would seem likely that the current government will stick to minimal subsidies for both rubber and rice farmers and try to concentrate even that on quality and diversification.

[rubl]

It's about high time that a Thai government will say enough is enough, these handouts never end

as more and more people from all walks of life in Thailand become to depend and demand that the

government will act and be a nanny to their silly and irresponsible life style and wrong decision

when it comes to farming and surviving in this country, no other country in the world offer such support

of free money, why Thailand?

"no other country in the world offer such support"... You obviously haven't heard of the Common Agricultural Policy (more commonly known as "CAP") in the EU. Google it. They handed out Euro 59 billion in 2010 to farmers across the continent in subsidies.

In 2015 the E.C. spent about 75 billion Euro in subsidies on agriculture and related items, half of the E.C. budget which is 1.4% of total 28 member states GNI. They even administer and audit and have a web site with the info.

So, the current government tells the rubber farmers 'NO'. Still thet government has helped a bit and tried to aim in part at quality and diversification. THat's a break in the policy of the Thai govenment. The previous government was all for quantity with their 'self-financing' RPPS and buying rubber at 90 Baht a kilo.

[rubl]

Well, one would expect at least those who's posts suggest a level of understanding and knowledge of the financial situation the government is in, would have digested the document and maybe even gone through the dozen or so other document (which are provided in Thai only).

Wow - a Junta supporter. I thought that there were none left, that they had all realised the error of their ways and slunk off.

To your point, I agree that submarines are essential spending for Thailand, and are much more important than the welfare of rubber farmers. The rubber farmers, and assorted peasantry from the south, came in useful for blocking roads during the protests for months on end, in the sweltering heat. Now that the military is in absolute control, who cares?

I didn't mention submarines, I didn't even mention other budgets.

So, no extraordinary subsidy for rubber farmers and all previous 'poor rice farmer' lovers start to feel sorry for the poor rubber tree farmers. Well that's nice, I mean after all Pheu Thai stated to have paid out 870 billion Baht directly to the 1.4 million rice farming households who participated in the 'self-financing' RPPS. The Yingluck government even bought rubber at the price of upto 90 Baht per kilo.

The current government still has 13 to 14 million tonnes rice left and God knows how many kilogram of rubber sheets, both deteriorating and even with a loss hardly sellable.

Time to say no to handouts and time for for longterm approaches like quality improvement, diversification, things like that. Double track higher speed railroad to the NorthEast to open up the country side for factories, business, work. The South will get it as well, but seems second priority. Oh if only we still had the 500++ billion Baht the previous government lost on their 'self-financing' scam. The things we could do with that type of money and I don't mean submarines, I mean infrastructure, keeping Healthcare affordable and such items all Thai can profit from.

[rubl]

The quote I put explicitly refers to protests aiming at getting rid of YL, not the protests for higher price that occured in 2013.

Anyway my initial questionning was:

"I wonder how long this government will be able to hold this position in front of one of their main supporter base" (precised later: rubber plant farmers from the South)

Does anyone have a comment to write about it?

They are the army... they can hold this forever if they wanted, as long as they are as strict as they are now they can prevent masses of people forming and blocking roads and stuff. I doubt people really want to go up against the army as long as they have loyal troops and guns protesters don't stand a chance. Also now they go after the leaders and that makes a big difference before the leaders thought they were immune and now its them that get arrested.. so they are al ot more careful now that they can''t have others take the fall for them.

As far as I can see it, they or anyone else can only hold power indefinitely if they are prepared to kill as many people as necessary in order do so. I wonder if they are, in 2016..?

'they'? Is that a vague reference to the cowardly terrorists who like to hide amongst death, dumb and blind red-shirts?

Anyway, no rubber subsidy.

[baboon]

Asking and answering one's own rhetorical questions is contributing nothing to the discussion. Then again, you are here to dirupt, divert, bait and antagonise, so nothing new there.

Clip clop! Back under the bridge for you...

Edited January 12, 2016 by baboon

[englishoak]

says government has no money to subsidize rubber price

So print some like everyone else....

[rubl]

Asking and answering one's own rhetorical questions is contributing nothing to the discussion. Then again, you are here to dirupt, divert, bait and antagonise, so nothing new there.

Clip clop! Back under the bridge for you...

Before I start looking for my place under the bridge, I'd like to antagonize a wee bit more. Another topic reports a policy change, eight ministries to find money to buy rubber. No further details yet.

[thelonius]

wow, the empathy-vacuum this man creates must have sucked all the air out of the room...

Wow, honesty is no longer appreciated it would seem. Would you rather be (democratically) lied to ?

Would you rather have the current government copy the 'self-financing' aspects of the RPPS to lose the country another 500++ billion Baht?

"Wow, honesty is no longer appreciated it would seem"

So you believe that the spokesman for the military junta government tells nothing but the truth? Really? Mind you he was just a Colonel in the heady days of 2010 when he was telling the truth and nothing but the truth for CRES, the military arm of the abhisit government. Now he is a Major General, presumably promoted for services to veracity...........

Now before we get into 2011 again, what do you have against

""He urged rubber farmers to understand that rubber price slump was due to several factors. Among them are global oil price cuts, oversupply of rubber and competition from synthetic rubber.""

Oh, I have nothing against him saying that nor did my post say that (you projecting again), but I do not believe it when Sansern states that the government "has no money to subsidize rubber price"...........

Lo and behold;

Thai cabinet will buy rubber at up to RM7.24 per kg from farmers

Edited January 13, 2016 by thelonius

[candide]

Well, the protest organiser (Suthep) shows up.....and the government's position changes. Surprised?

[sawadee1947]

PM wasted already money called subsidies

[rubl]

Wow, honesty is no longer appreciated it would seem. Would you rather be (democratically) lied to ?

Would you rather have the current government copy the 'self-financing' aspects of the RPPS to lose the country another 500++ billion Baht?

"Wow, honesty is no longer appreciated it would seem"

So you believe that the spokesman for the military junta government tells nothing but the truth? Really? Mind you he was just a Colonel in the heady days of 2010 when he was telling the truth and nothing but the truth for CRES, the military arm of the abhisit government. Now he is a Major General, presumably promoted for services to veracity...........

Now before we get into 2011 again, what do you have against

""He urged rubber farmers to understand that rubber price slump was due to several factors. Among them are global oil price cuts, oversupply of rubber and competition from synthetic rubber.""

Oh, I have nothing against him saying that nor did my post say that (you projecting again), but I do not believe it when Sansern states that the government "has no money to subsidize rubber price"...........

Lo and behold;

Thai cabinet will buy rubber at up to RM7.24 per kg from farmers

Ah, so you just didn't believe the chap? Mind you, the money found comes from other ministries which return some of their budget so the government does have money and still stay within the National Budget. Some countries are seen doing similar moves with their income based on oil decreasing.

BTW the cabinet approved buying 100,000 tonnes this year at prices not yet determined, but only fractionally higher than market prices. Your Malaysian article gives those as 33.80 Baht a kilo. So for the time being I still guestimate 35 Baht per kilo, requiring 3.5 billion Baht to buy those 100,000 tonnes. Furthermore I assume the government will indirectly help factories (and workers) as the unsmoked rubber sheets have to be processed to allow longer time storage. Processing costs additional budget but also increases the price of the sheets and the time the government might wait before they really need to sell them. With oil at US$ 30 a barrel they probably know they shouldn't wait to long but realise a possible loss as all here expect on subsidies.

[LannaGuy]

Asking and answering one's own rhetorical questions is contributing nothing to the discussion. Then again, you are here to dirupt, divert, bait and antagonise, so nothing new there.

Clip clop! Back under the bridge for you...

Before I start looking for my place under the bridge, I'd like to antagonize a wee bit more. Another topic reports a policy change, eight ministries to find money to buy rubber. No further details yet.

a few days ago you were against subsidy now you are bouncing back with "what I really meant was..."

[ldiablo]

Wow, honesty is no longer appreciated it would seem. Would you rather be (democratically) lied to ?
Would you rather have the current government copy the 'self-financing' aspects of the RPPS to lose the country another 500++ billion Baht?

"Wow, honesty is no longer appreciated it would seem"


So you believe that the spokesman for the military junta government tells nothing but the truth? Really? Mind you he was just a Colonel in the heady days of 2010 when he was telling the truth and nothing but the truth for CRES, the military arm of the abhisit government. Now he is a Major General, presumably promoted for services to veracity...........

Now before we get into 2011 again, what do you have against

""He urged rubber farmers to understand that rubber price slump was due to several factors. Among them are global oil price cuts, oversupply of rubber and competition from synthetic rubber.""

Oh, I have nothing against him saying that nor did my post say that (you projecting again), but I do not believe it when Sansern states that the government "has no money to subsidize rubber price"...........

Lo and behold;

Thai cabinet will buy rubber at up to RM7.24 per kg from farmers

Ah, so you just didn't believe the chap? Mind you, the money found comes from other ministries which return some of their budget so the government does have money and still stay within the National Budget. Some countries are seen doing similar moves with their income based on oil decreasing.

BTW the cabinet approved buying 100,000 tonnes this year at prices not yet determined, but only fractionally higher than market prices. Your Malaysian article gives those as 33.80 Baht a kilo. So for the time being I still guestimate 35 Baht per kilo, requiring 3.5 billion Baht to buy those 100,000 tonnes. Furthermore I assume the government will indirectly help factories (and workers) as the unsmoked rubber sheets have to be processed to allow longer time storage. Processing costs additional budget but also increases the price of the sheets and the time the government might wait before they really need to sell them. With oil at US$ 30 a barrel they probably know they shouldn't wait to long but realise a possible loss as all here expect on subsidies.

You have far too much faith in this government sir.

[rubl]

 

Asking and answering one's own rhetorical questions is contributing nothing to the discussion. Then again, you are here to dirupt, divert, bait and antagonise, so nothing new there.

Clip clop! Back under the bridge for you...

Before I start looking for my place under the bridge, I'd like to antagonize a wee bit more. Another topic reports a policy change, eight ministries to find money to buy rubber. No further details yet.

a few days ago you were against subsidy now you are bouncing back with "what I really meant was..."

 

Bouncing back? I'm still against even if I and even you can understand the need for subsidies at times.

As long is the subsidy is just that a subsidy, limited, and related to the current market price AS IT MOVES, I guess I'll accept. Just like I have said before that if the previous government would have moade a hundred billion subsidy provision in the National Budget there would be protests, but all would understand as that's what subsidies are for. Hopefully short-time provision while long-term measures can be defined and started.

[GinBoy2]

Problem with all this is: wrap it in bows or whatever, but they all, buy, bribe, reward their base with a subsidy, pledging, call it what you will, but it's all the same regardless of how you wrap it up all nicely.

Agro subsidies are always wrong, ineffectual and in a developing economy such as Thailand, treasury breaking and unsustainable.

1st world agro subsidies already distort world commodity prices to the detriment of the market, but their scale is huge and can move global markets. Thai meddling in commodity pricing does nothing to move global markets, hence all they do is bankrupt the Thai treasury.

Good Luck to the Juntanistia's in justifying this, its no less lunatic than rice pledging

[rubl]

Problem with all this is: wrap it in bows or whatever, but they all, buy, bribe, reward their base with a subsidy, pledging, call it what you will, but it's all the same regardless of how you wrap it up all nicely.

Agro subsidies are always wrong, ineffectual and in a developing economy such as Thailand, treasury breaking and unsustainable.

1st world agro subsidies already distort world commodity prices to the detriment of the market, but their scale is huge and can move global markets. Thai meddling in commodity pricing does nothing to move global markets, hence all they do is bankrupt the Thai treasury.

Good Luck to the Juntanistia's in justifying this, its no less lunatic than rice pledging

Well, the interesting part is that some here tried to justify the previous governments RPPS as justified 'subsidy' to help poor rice farmers. After paying out 870 billion Baht to 1.4m rice farmer families the rice farmers are still poor.

The current real subsidy is futile I think, although with the drop in the rubber sheet price from above 90Bt to 34 now even governments in Europe would help their farmers. At least the amount to be spent is limited, covered in the National Budget and as far as I know barely above marker price (and I hope with every buy the current market price is taken). I only hope someone will remember to let the uncured rubber sheets be processed to make them more durable as selling onward now is out of the question.

[anotheruser]

I will keep using condoms either way.

[LannaGuy]

 

Asking and answering one's own rhetorical questions is contributing nothing to the discussion. Then again, you are here to dirupt, divert, bait and antagonise, so nothing new there.

Clip clop! Back under the bridge for you...

Before I start looking for my place under the bridge, I'd like to antagonize a wee bit more. Another topic reports a policy change, eight ministries to find money to buy rubber. No further details yet.

a few days ago you were against subsidy now you are bouncing back with "what I really meant was..."

 

Bouncing back? I'm still against even if I and even you can understand the need for subsidies at times.

As long is the subsidy is just that a subsidy, limited, and related to the current market price AS IT MOVES, I guess I'll accept. Just like I have said before that if the previous government would have moade a hundred billion subsidy provision in the National Budget there would be protests, but all would understand as that's what subsidies are for. Hopefully short-time provision while long-term measures can be defined and started.

what "provision in the National Budget"? you mean a few days ago there was no provision and, magically, there is? what a load of BS

[rubl]

 

Before I start looking for my place under the bridge, I'd like to antagonize a wee bit more. Another topic reports a policy change, eight ministries to find money to buy rubber. No further details yet.

a few days ago you were against subsidy now you are bouncing back with "what I really meant was..."

 

Bouncing back? I'm still against even if I and even you can understand the need for subsidies at times.

As long is the subsidy is just that a subsidy, limited, and related to the current market price AS IT MOVES, I guess I'll accept. Just like I have said before that if the previous government would have moade a hundred billion subsidy provision in the National Budget there would be protests, but all would understand as that's what subsidies are for. Hopefully short-time provision while long-term measures can be defined and started.

what "provision in the National Budget"? you mean a few days ago there was no provision and, magically, there is? what a load of BS

PM Prayuth asked a few ministries to return some of their allocated budget in order to both have funds for this subsidy and stay within the limits of the National Budget.