Yingluck appears at first hearing of rice pledging scheme trial

[scorecard]

There is not really much point in trying to refute your points, as you or I simply do not know what is true and what is not. I dont doubt there was corruption in the scheme, but i expect there is corruption in every single civil service procument in the whole country since the begginning of time.

The thing that grinds mine and I expect many peoples gears is the fact that the justice is the country is so selective. If all corruption was punished i would be happy with Yingluck having her day in court.

But we do know the facts..

fact is that the 800 billion was never included in the budget as it was supposed to be self financing (even though all the experts said it was impossible). In no country in the world can you take an amount equal to the health budget of the country (around 200 billion in Thailand) and keep it off books. So that is gross negligence

We also know that she was late with paying even before the street protests and we also know she made no provisions for paying when she stepped down.

The corruption if proven in court will add to the charges going against her but negligence is easy to prove with her not adding such a huge amount of money to the budget. Any accountant will tell you that you will have to include things in budget when the costs clear. Now it was quite clear that it failed and how much money was used but still nothing was included in the budget.. she would have been convicted in civilized countries too for such a feat.. i can see the headlines in my country.. pm keeps an amount equal to the health budget for a year off books in fact hiding it.You can be sure that the guy would face persecution for such a mismanagement.

That is just not done and damages the fiscal discipline, its just imaginable. Just imagine Obama having a budget like that off books hiding the costs of it..

Actually the united states post office is "a self financing program" however this does not all happen. In 2012 the post office had to get $15.9 billion from the government to cover losses. Should Obama like Yingluck be tried on the same charges? I'm sure he did not go to any of the USPS meetings.

Silliest post this year.

[scorecard]

lovely to see that so many decent people are not intimidated and come out to wish her well...

for one who is intelligent, often well balanced, and I dare say a decent person, I find it odd that you defend the pretty of a very dubious clan who was no more than her criminal brother's latest stooge.

An actress, and a pretty good one on occasion, those crocodile tears; but prone to gaffaws like being caught bursting out laughing after crying without realizing the camera was still on. An accomplished liar who probably does believe their own PR that she's never ever done anything wrong ever. Had she achieved the slight of hand and got her brother back whitewashed of all convictions, outstanding court cases and charges associated with bail jumping, I dread to think what would have happened.

You also said that she will fled like her brother and that didn't happen. Guess that puts what you wrote in the category of BS.

Not over yet EL.

[seedy]

one Post insinuating Bribery has been removed

[Nbarch]

It is never a good idea for a government to subsidise products in a free market, someone losses out somewhere along the supply chain.

Well at least Yinluck is in court for susidising rice, could be worse,could be rubber.

.

[rubl]

It is never a good idea for a government to subsidise products in a free market, someone losses out somewhere along the supply chain.

Well at least Yinluck is in court for susidising rice, could be worse,could be rubber.

.

Actually Ms. Yingluck is in court to explain how come she let her 'self-financing' RPPS lose 500++ billion Baht.

[smutcakes]

It is never a good idea for a government to subsidise products in a free market, someone losses out somewhere along the supply chain.

Well at least Yinluck is in court for susidising rice, could be worse,could be rubber.

.

Actually Ms. Yingluck is in court to explain how come she let her 'self-financing' RPPS lose 500++ billion Baht.

What is with your absolute infatuation with the 'self financing' bit? Self financing or not, what affect does that have on anything? Would it all of been okay if it was called a subsidy?

[rubl]

It is never a good idea for a government to subsidise products in a free market, someone losses out somewhere along the supply chain.

Well at least Yinluck is in court for susidising rice, could be worse,could be rubber.

.

Actually Ms. Yingluck is in court to explain how come she let her 'self-financing' RPPS lose 500++ billion Baht.

What is with your absolute infatuation with the 'self financing' bit? Self financing or not, what affect does that have on anything? Would it all of been okay if it was called a subsidy?

I've stated a few times that if Ms. Yingluck had positioned her RPPS as subsidy with a reservation of upto 100 billion Baht in the National Budget, she could have lost the reservation without there being serious problems. As I'm told anyone knows subsidies cost money. The 100 billion Baht is my guestimate.

As is was Ms. Yingluck positioned her RPPS as 'self-financing' and the day before the scheme activated her Minister of Finance even stated that only a resolving funds of 430 bililon Baht was required. First to pay out from and later to replenish from rice sales. With the scam paying double the market price of rice on paddy no one believed the 'self-financing' part except the government which kept on defending it. Only very reluctantly they slowly admitted to 'no real problems', 'small losses', 'not more than 60, 80, 120 billion Baht a year' till mid-2013 'less than 340 billion losses'. Of course the statement a month or so later of 270 bililon needed and reserved for 2013/2014 and rumours of non-payment escalated in a 'can we borrow 130 billion Baht'.

The charge of 'negligence' seems correct although with all warnings and obfuscation trying to ignore them might have justified 'intend-to-deceive' or 'intend-to-defraud'.

Edited January 15, 2016 by rubl

[Skywalker69]

lovely to see that so many decent people are not intimidated and come out to wish her well...

for one who is intelligent, often well balanced, and I dare say a decent person, I find it odd that you defend the pretty of a very dubious clan who was no more than her criminal brother's latest stooge.

An actress, and a pretty good one on occasion, those crocodile tears; but prone to gaffaws like being caught bursting out laughing after crying without realizing the camera was still on. An accomplished liar who probably does believe their own PR that she's never ever done anything wrong ever. Had she achieved the slight of hand and got her brother back whitewashed of all convictions, outstanding court cases and charges associated with bail jumping, I dread to think what would have happened.

You also said that she will fled like her brother and that didn't happen. Guess that puts what you wrote in the category of BS.

Her brother fled after his conviction, so we still have to wait and see.

[smutcakes]

It is never a good idea for a government to subsidise products in a free market, someone losses out somewhere along the supply chain.

Well at least Yinluck is in court for susidising rice, could be worse,could be rubber.

.

Actually Ms. Yingluck is in court to explain how come she let her 'self-financing' RPPS lose 500++ billion Baht.

What is with your absolute infatuation with the 'self financing' bit? Self financing or not, what affect does that have on anything? Would it all of been okay if it was called a subsidy?

I've stated a few times that if Ms. Yingluck had positioned her RPPS as subsidy with a reservation of upto 100 billion Baht in the National Budget, she could have lost the reservation without there being serious problems. As I'm told anyone knows subsidies cost money. The 100 billion Baht is my guestimate.

As is was Ms. Yingluck positioned her RPPS as 'self-financing' and the day before the scheme activated her Minister of Finance even stated that only a resolving funds of 430 bililon Baht was required. First to pay out from and later to replenish from rice sales. With the scam paying double the market price of rice on paddy no one believed the 'self-financing' part except the government which kept on defending it. Only very reluctantly they slowly admitted to 'no real problems', 'small losses', 'not more than 60, 80, 120 billion Baht a year' till mid-2013 'less than 340 billion losses'. Of course the statement a month or so later of 270 bililon needed and reserved for 2013/2014 and rumours of non-payment escalated in a 'can we borrow 130 billion Baht'.

The charge of 'negligence' seems correct although with all warnings and obfuscation trying to ignore them might have justified 'intend-to-deceive' or 'intend-to-defraud'.

Yes, but what does that all mean at the end of the day? I have not even seen it mentioned in any of the Thai news, it does not even seem to be a consideration in this case. The only place you even see it mentioned is here.

Now why am i not surprised that suddenly 'subsidies' are okay.......

[BSJ]

A reasonable man could come to the conclusion that she is more than likely guilty of negligence or dereliction of duty from what has been revealed in the news media. But we have to go through the court process to confirm that....sooner or later!

Edited January 15, 2016 by BSJ

[metisdead]

A post of a nonsensical baiting nature has been removed:

9) You will not post inflammatory messages on the forum, or attempt to disrupt discussions to upset its participants, or trolling. Trolling can be defined as the act of purposefully antagonizing other people on the internet by posting controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

[waitforusalso]

It is never a good idea for a government to subsidise products in a free market, someone losses out somewhere along the supply chain.

Well at least Yinluck is in court for susidising rice, could be worse,could be rubber.

.

Actually Ms. Yingluck is in court to explain how come she let her 'self-financing' RPPS lose 500++ billion Baht.

What is with your absolute infatuation with the 'self financing' bit? Self financing or not, what affect does that have on anything? Would it all of been okay if it was called a subsidy?

I've stated a few times that if Ms. Yingluck had positioned her RPPS as subsidy with a reservation of upto 100 billion Baht in the National Budget, she could have lost the reservation without there being serious problems. As I'm told anyone knows subsidies cost money. The 100 billion Baht is my guestimate.

As is was Ms. Yingluck positioned her RPPS as 'self-financing' and the day before the scheme activated her Minister of Finance even stated that only a resolving funds of 430 bililon Baht was required. First to pay out from and later to replenish from rice sales. With the scam paying double the market price of rice on paddy no one believed the 'self-financing' part except the government which kept on defending it. Only very reluctantly they slowly admitted to 'no real problems', 'small losses', 'not more than 60, 80, 120 billion Baht a year' till mid-2013 'less than 340 billion losses'. Of course the statement a month or so later of 270 bililon needed and reserved for 2013/2014 and rumours of non-payment escalated in a 'can we borrow 130 billion Baht'.

The charge of 'negligence' seems correct although with all warnings and obfuscation trying to ignore them might have justified 'intend-to-deceive' or 'intend-to-defraud'.

Yes, it was intended to be self-financing, but it didn't work out as expected. This was largely due to the rapid decline in rice prices after implementation

In the early 80's NZs National government implemented their 'Think Big' policies, touted to be self-financing due to the high price of oil. Unfortunately the oil price dropped substantially leaving the NZ taxpayer with a $7 billion debt. The party was voted out at the next election.

[FritsSikkink]

It is never a good idea for a government to subsidise products in a free market, someone losses out somewhere along the supply chain.

Well at least Yinluck is in court for susidising rice, could be worse,could be rubber.
.

Actually Ms. Yingluck is in court to explain how come she let her 'self-financing' RPPS lose 500++ billion Baht.

What is with your absolute infatuation with the 'self financing' bit? Self financing or not, what affect does that have on anything? Would it all of been okay if it was called a subsidy?

I've stated a few times that if Ms. Yingluck had positioned her RPPS as subsidy with a reservation of upto 100 billion Baht in the National Budget, she could have lost the reservation without there being serious problems. As I'm told anyone knows subsidies cost money. The 100 billion Baht is my guestimate.

As is was Ms. Yingluck positioned her RPPS as 'self-financing' and the day before the scheme activated her Minister of Finance even stated that only a resolving funds of 430 bililon Baht was required. First to pay out from and later to replenish from rice sales. With the scam paying double the market price of rice on paddy no one believed the 'self-financing' part except the government which kept on defending it. Only very reluctantly they slowly admitted to 'no real problems', 'small losses', 'not more than 60, 80, 120 billion Baht a year' till mid-2013 'less than 340 billion losses'. Of course the statement a month or so later of 270 bililon needed and reserved for 2013/2014 and rumours of non-payment escalated in a 'can we borrow 130 billion Baht'.

The charge of 'negligence' seems correct although with all warnings and obfuscation trying to ignore them might have justified 'intend-to-deceive' or 'intend-to-defraud'.

Yes, it was intended to be self-financing, but it didn't work out as expected. This was largely due to the rapid decline in rice prices after implementation
Capture.JPG
In the early 80's NZs National government implemented their 'Think Big' policies, touted to be self-financing due to the high price of oil. Unfortunately the oil price dropped substantially leaving the NZ taxpayer with a $7 billion debt. The party was voted out at the next election.

not if your mates are robbing the country to a scale which has never happend before overhere

[bangrak]

There is not really much point in trying to refute your points, as you or I simply do not know what is true and what is not. I dont doubt there was corruption in the scheme, but i expect there is corruption in every single civil service procument in the whole country since the begginning of time.

The thing that grinds mine and I expect many peoples gears is the fact that the justice is the country is so selective. If all corruption was punished i would be happy with Yingluck having her day in court.

But we do know the facts..

fact is that the 800 billion was never included in the budget as it was supposed to be self financing (even though all the experts said it was impossible). In no country in the world can you take an amount equal to the health budget of the country (around 200 billion in Thailand) and keep it off books. So that is gross negligence

We also know that she was late with paying even before the street protests and we also know she made no provisions for paying when she stepped down.

The corruption if proven in court will add to the charges going against her but negligence is easy to prove with her not adding such a huge amount of money to the budget. Any accountant will tell you that you will have to include things in budget when the costs clear. Now it was quite clear that it failed and how much money was used but still nothing was included in the budget.. she would have been convicted in civilized countries too for such a feat.. i can see the headlines in my country.. pm keeps an amount equal to the health budget for a year off books in fact hiding it.You can be sure that the guy would face persecution for such a mismanagement.

That is just not done and damages the fiscal discipline, its just imaginable. Just imagine Obama having a budget like that off books hiding the costs of it..

Actually the united states post office is "a self financing program" however this does not all happen. In 2012 the post office had to get $15.9 billion from the government to cover losses. Should Obama like Yingluck be tried on the same charges? I'm sure he did not go to any of the USPS meetings.

LOL, it's early 'saturday night fever' this week, but a quite high fever it is: bringing in the US Post to compare with the rice scam's trick-with-the-billions, oh my!

[marinediscoking]

There is not really much point in trying to refute your points, as you or I simply do not know what is true and what is not. I dont doubt there was corruption in the scheme, but i expect there is corruption in every single civil service procument in the whole country since the begginning of time.

The thing that grinds mine and I expect many peoples gears is the fact that the justice is the country is so selective. If all corruption was punished i would be happy with Yingluck having her day in court.

But we do know the facts..

fact is that the 800 billion was never included in the budget as it was supposed to be self financing (even though all the experts said it was impossible). In no country in the world can you take an amount equal to the health budget of the country (around 200 billion in Thailand) and keep it off books. So that is gross negligence

We also know that she was late with paying even before the street protests and we also know she made no provisions for paying when she stepped down.

The corruption if proven in court will add to the charges going against her but negligence is easy to prove with her not adding such a huge amount of money to the budget. Any accountant will tell you that you will have to include things in budget when the costs clear. Now it was quite clear that it failed and how much money was used but still nothing was included in the budget.. she would have been convicted in civilized countries too for such a feat.. i can see the headlines in my country.. pm keeps an amount equal to the health budget for a year off books in fact hiding it.You can be sure that the guy would face persecution for such a mismanagement.

That is just not done and damages the fiscal discipline, its just imaginable. Just imagine Obama having a budget like that off books hiding the costs of it..

Actually the united states post office is "a self financing program" however this does not all happen. In 2012 the post office had to get $15.9 billion from the government to cover losses. Should Obama like Yingluck be tried on the same charges? I'm sure he did not go to any of the USPS meetings.

LOL, it's early 'saturday night fever' this week, but a quite high fever it is: bringing in the US Post to compare with the rice scam's trick-with-the-billions, oh my!

Yes it is "self financing" but it isn't working out that way so someone should be held to account!!!! This seems to be the logic on here! If not it should be privatized or called a subsidy. You can't make that your argument then to expect to have it both ways! Now the New Zealand government should be held to account too for their "think big" policies.

[halloween]

Yes, but what does that all mean at the end of the day? I have not even seen it mentioned in any of the Thai news, it does not even seem to be a consideration in this case. The only place you even see it mentioned is here.

Now why am i not surprised that suddenly 'subsidies' are okay.......

Even more surprising is that for some people, suddenly they are not.

[halloween]

Yes, it was intended to be self-financing, but it didn't work out as expected. This was largely due to the rapid decline in rice prices after implementation

Capture.JPG

In the early 80's NZs National government implemented their 'Think Big' policies, touted to be self-financing due to the high price of oil. Unfortunately the oil price dropped substantially leaving the NZ taxpayer with a $7 billion debt. The party was voted out at the next election.

Try to understand that the charge of negligence is related to their lack of action in the 2.5 years AFTER the price of rice dropped.

BTW planning yo borrow trillions to prop up a failed policy doesn't count as a positive action.

[MaxLee]

okay see you next years,......

[mango66]

Corruption may be happened like any other welfare schemes in the world. Even British and American wasting lot of money for Agricultural,Education and Health care subsidies.

But this is one of the best schemes for Thailand to distribute the wealth the rural agricultural community never enjoyed same status as Bangkokians. It may be mismanaged, but helped Thailand to produce plenty of rice for the world. That made the less hungry world.

If this scheme is property implemented every Thai will economically benefit. I have seen many rural could able to buy pickup trucks of their own, and build their houses after this scheme is implemented.

Sad that it has been given political color and one of the good schemes is removed.

how much were ever subsidie to bangkokians ??

never any satang !

Most of that which bought their new pickup, never ever delivered rice ti this sheme,

just falsificated documents !!

This is a real great welfare done by the Shinas !!

buying votes, nothing else !!

tahe off your pink glasses !!

[mango66]

I am surprised that she actually showed up in person. I am guessing her attendence was manditory and no excuses would be taken.

her attendance were just in Dubay for instruction

[waitforusalso]

Yes, it was intended to be self-financing, but it didn't work out as expected. This was largely due to the rapid decline in rice prices after implementation

Capture.JPG

In the early 80's NZs National government implemented their 'Think Big' policies, touted to be self-financing due to the high price of oil. Unfortunately the oil price dropped substantially leaving the NZ taxpayer with a $7 billion debt. The party was voted out at the next election.

Try to understand that the charge of negligence is related to their lack of action in the 2.5 years AFTER the price of rice dropped.

BTW planning yo borrow trillions to prop up a failed policy doesn't count as a positive action.

They were in the process of adjusting the pledging price when the Suthep (& Prayuth) circus rolled into town.

[seedy]

one Off topic post removed. Forum Rule - 8) You will not post disruptive or inflammatory messages, vulgarities, obscenities or profanities.

[TheCruncher]

Hundreds of supporters, mostly women, holding up portraits of Ms. Yingluck and her brother.

To make people here understand this was spontaneous, some independent reporters should have 'polled' some ladies why they were there.

I wonder where they all went when the picture in the OP was taken.

[ginjag]

We all make wrong decisions , some larger than others , and some have consequences we just don't see at the time,

Your talking about Thaksin smirking in Dubai, his sister having to go through all this FOR HIM.

Just to add, Talk about Family and friends love, Thaksin USES anyone he can to do his devious deeds.

Number 1.............his sister

Number 2.............Friends/class mates

Number 3.............Paid red shirt fanatics

Number 4.............Police and Issan village heads

Just to sum up.............he is not here to face trial, also who has he helped that got into problems on his doing ??

[candide]

The scheme has been a failure on some aspects, in particular the financial one, I guess no one rejects this assertion. The failure process has been explained in one of the article link posted before: rice price on the world market goes down, large stocks of rice to be stored (possibly in conditions that were not optimal due to the large quantities accumulated), difficulty to finance subsidies for farmers, aging rice stocks,etc... leading to huge financial loss.

Now from a legal point of view

About failure:

- is it standard practice in Thailand or elsewhere to condemn PMs for failed policies (voted by parliament in this case)?

- the amount of the loss (around THB 500b+ according to latest estimates): is there an amount level of loss at which it becomes illegal? Is it 500, 400, 100b?

- plus what is the macro-economic impact (higher GDP growth, higher amount of taxes) of the scheme. So what is the "net loss" after considering these effects?

- she did not stop the program after 2.5 years: when does it becomes illegal? After 1 year, 1.5 year, 2 years?

About corruption:

- was there a disproportionate amount of corruption? I often read about "massive corruption" and it seems the only thing that has come up are the so-called "fake GtoG deals" (a scam in which the rice bought at low GtoG price has been resold in Thailand instead of in China) which represent a very low % of the scheme budget and for which corruption has not been established and judged yet. The other claim was "massive missing rice quantities". The junta has checked and re-checked it and the missing rice % is in line with what anyone familiar with wharehousing may expect.

- was YL aware of this corruption? If and when she was, did she do anything to check it and try to stop the corruption identified. Ex. did she create a committee, an investigation team, etc.... to enquire about it?

Edited January 16, 2016 by candide

[FritsSikkink]

Yes, it was intended to be self-financing, but it didn't work out as expected. This was largely due to the rapid decline in rice prices after implementation

Capture.JPG

In the early 80's NZs National government implemented their 'Think Big' policies, touted to be self-financing due to the high price of oil. Unfortunately the oil price dropped substantially leaving the NZ taxpayer with a $7 billion debt. The party was voted out at the next election.

Try to understand that the charge of negligence is related to their lack of action in the 2.5 years AFTER the price of rice dropped.

BTW planning yo borrow trillions to prop up a failed policy doesn't count as a positive action.

They were in the process of adjusting the pledging price when the Suthep (& Prayuth) circus rolled into town.

like they were in the proces of payong farmers which they didn't do for almost a year before the banks didn't give any money anymore?

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

This scheme was designed to hoodwink the poor farmers into thinking they were getting a subsidy when they were being robbed blind.

Someone posted that the Shinawatras don't need more money, but one thing is true, if you have money, it never matters how much, you will always want more. It is also true that you will not leave hold of it easily.

US$15b is a lot to go round, and the truck loads of rice disappearing form the warehouses in the middle of the night only goes to show how greedy these people really are.

And how about asking Thaksin for the tax he didn't pay on the sale of the telecom company while they are at it?

[Linky]

It is never a good idea for a government to subsidise products in a free market, someone losses out somewhere along the supply chain.

Well at least Yinluck is in court for susidising rice, could be worse,could be rubber.
.

Actually Ms. Yingluck is in court to explain how come she let her 'self-financing' RPPS lose 500++ billion Baht.

What is with your absolute infatuation with the 'self financing' bit? Self financing or not, what affect does that have on anything? Would it all of been okay if it was called a subsidy?

I've stated a few times that if Ms. Yingluck had positioned her RPPS as subsidy with a reservation of upto 100 billion Baht in the National Budget, she could have lost the reservation without there being serious problems. As I'm told anyone knows subsidies cost money. The 100 billion Baht is my guestimate.

As is was Ms. Yingluck positioned her RPPS as 'self-financing' and the day before the scheme activated her Minister of Finance even stated that only a resolving funds of 430 bililon Baht was required. First to pay out from and later to replenish from rice sales. With the scam paying double the market price of rice on paddy no one believed the 'self-financing' part except the government which kept on defending it. Only very reluctantly they slowly admitted to 'no real problems', 'small losses', 'not more than 60, 80, 120 billion Baht a year' till mid-2013 'less than 340 billion losses'. Of course the statement a month or so later of 270 bililon needed and reserved for 2013/2014 and rumours of non-payment escalated in a 'can we borrow 130 billion Baht'.

The charge of 'negligence' seems correct although with all warnings and obfuscation trying to ignore them might have justified 'intend-to-deceive' or 'intend-to-defraud'.

Yes, it was intended to be self-financing, but it didn't work out as expected. This was largely due to the rapid decline in rice prices after implementation
Capture.JPG
In the early 80's NZs National government implemented their 'Think Big' policies, touted to be self-financing due to the high price of oil. Unfortunately the oil price dropped substantially leaving the NZ taxpayer with a $7 billion debt. The party was voted out at the next election.

Wasnt it a nice touch that the people got to decide to vote them in or out after consideration of the performance whilst in office.

Thats how it is supposed to work. Govt governs, opposition points out the failures and the voters determine who they want.

Its a quite simple concept. Apparently.

[halloween]

Yes, it was intended to be self-financing, but it didn't work out as expected. This was largely due to the rapid decline in rice prices after implementation

Capture.JPG

In the early 80's NZs National government implemented their 'Think Big' policies, touted to be self-financing due to the high price of oil. Unfortunately the oil price dropped substantially leaving the NZ taxpayer with a $7 billion debt. The party was voted out at the next election.

Try to understand that the charge of negligence is related to their lack of action in the 2.5 years AFTER the price of rice dropped.

BTW planning yo borrow trillions to prop up a failed policy doesn't count as a positive action.

They were in the process of adjusting the pledging price when the Suthep (& Prayuth) circus rolled into town.

They attempted to reduce the price paid, and caved in to political pressure not to do so. They were in the process of borrowing B2.3 trillion to prop ud their failed policy, and giving their criminal leader and themselves an amnesty.

[halloween]

Wasnt it a nice touch that the people got to decide to vote them in or out after consideration of the performance whilst in office.

Thats how it is supposed to work. Govt governs, opposition points out the failures and the voters determine who they want.

Its a quite simple concept. Apparently.

Not only the concept. Apparently.