“Good guys in, bad guys out”, says Thailand Immigration chief

[digibum]

So what are you saying leave it to the computer stool need experts who now belive they know everything.

No, not at all. What I'm saying is that:

1) The laws have changed.

2) Change is inevitable.

Anybody who doesn't understand the second point is doomed to a lot of misery.

It's not just expats. As I mentioned, it's happened countless times in countless places for countless reasons.

And with every change is a cry out from those who refuse to adapt declaring how valuable they are. I'm the best buggy whip maker there is, there's no way I'm ever going to be out of a job.

So, really, there's no need to leave it to me or any other computer stool expert. If you believe the world remains static, good luck to you. The change will happen whether you want it to happen or you don't.

But believing that it's not going to happen because of all of the "cash cows" is simply not something that has held up very well to history. How long have people been saying that this or that or the other thing is going to kill tourism in Thailand? Yeah, how has that worked out so far?

I am not asking you to leave it up to me or anybody else because I have not offered you any solution. I'm simply pointing out that Jools' logic is flawed.

[ericthai]

you're so funny, yup play the I'm here longer than you card, like that has anything to do with anything. If you have been in Thailand so

long and so much older then why are you worried about a 30 something needing a visa, seems you just want to argue and show everyone how long you have been in Thailand.

You made the remark that from my posts, it appeared that I hadn't been in Thailand very long. I answered.

Go back and read your own post. We'll wait.

Plenty of people have been in Thailand longer than I. And I'm sure they disagree with me on many topics. And plenty of people who have been around for a short while know more about things in Thailand. I respect them, equally.

What I don't respect is anyone attempting to jam THEIR opinion down everyone else's throat, pulling fake statistics out of their butts, telling us that Thais want this or that, or like this or that, when it is all a projected confabulation of their own obsessed, and alleged, mind.

Get it?

If you personally know something, share it openly. Express an opinion, but expect to be differed with. And for you, know when to quit...

Dude it was the way you replied to me. You needed to be smart A$$ about it.

I didn't state an statistics or push my opinion on anyone I made a comment to another poster and then you started in on me as if you know everything.

You have no idea how long I have been in Thailand or who I am or what I do. So just let it go.

[Radar501]

“Good guys in, bad guys out” Catchy slogan.........but sadly not original.

Philippines Bureau of Immigration campaign to dob in illegal immigrants. Circa about 2014.

[mgjackson69]

“Good guys in, bad guys out”

Catchy slogan.........but sadly not original.

Philippines Bureau of Immigration campaign to dob in illegal immigrants. Circa about 2014.

Thailand....the Hub of Copying

[Shazdeb]

So an over stay of less than 90 days does not get you banned?

Not banned in case you "surrender to the authorities" but to be "crystal clear" they would have had to explain what happens if you're a couple days over and stopped on the way to the airport.

wondering as well this makes it much clearer and i agree with what there doing. however its very easy to overstay a day or 3, I have done a couple of times in 5 yrs once too sick to travel and once couldnt get on a bus as all full, longest overstay was 3 days which i now understand is no problem BUT what if i have to show my passport for any 1 of a thousand reasons and get caught in those couple of days ??? Im sure it wouldn't be a problem but sadly nothing in life is ever 100% certain

[Timwin]

Maybe the "arrested and prosecuted" means that if you commit a crime and get caught, like DUI or stealing from a shop, and they check your passport and your visa is already expired, you get the 5 year ban.

[Cook my sock]

Are people complaining about the action or the way it's put?

The issue I have is with the new governments rampant xenophobia. This surely has a trickle down effect. It worries me a lot since I've just moved here.

[mgjackson69]

Regardless of one's position on overstays, I think we can agree that the cartoon is ridiculous and xenophobic.

[FritsSikkink]

Maybe the "arrested and prosecuted" means that if you commit a crime and get caught, like DUI or stealing from a shop, and they check your passport and your visa is already expired, you get the 5 year ban.

when you commit a crime like overstaying your given date to leave the country

[OMGImInPattaya]

Are people complaining about the action or the way it's put?

The issue I have is with the new governments rampant xenophobia. This surely has a trickle down effect. It worries me a lot since I've just moved here.

Not to be argumentative...but how is making an effort to enforce laws and regulations that have been on the books for years "xenophobia"?

Can not it be seen as a reasonable and responsible effort to upgrade enforcement of Thailand's immigration and border controls in this world of increased terrorism and economic/political refugee flows? I mean, the world is not the same place it was 10 or even 5 years ago...and all countries are staking steps to increase their border and internal security.

I've lived here for more than a decade and have not detected any change in the average Thai's or the government's attitude to foreigners either visiting, working, or retiring in The Kingdom. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you...assuming you're qualified to be here under the status you entered.

[elviajero]

Why do you and your mentor consider that someone who defends the decision to ban overstayers is a Thai sycophant or anti farang? Assumptions like that just demonstrate ignorance or immaturity. The bottom line is that overstayers piss off many of the 99+% of us visitors that manage to stay within the rules and we have a right to voice an opinion.

No.

Ignorance and immaturity is someone pulling a number like "99+%" out of their fundament, and then appointing themselves spokesperson for that imaginary lot.

Immaturity is also acting as if someone said you don't have a right to YOUR opinion. The only thing is, people who disagree with you will be heard from.

Sorry if that hits one of your 'trigger points', or is a 'microaggression' for you.

Welcome to the world of ideas, and opinions.

Come to think of it, we've heard your opinion on this matter ad nauseam. We get it: you want overstayers punished more severely.

Is there some specific game you are trying to win here? One thing seems clear: you are usually the first to jump on any Immigration rules topic, and the biggest cheerleader for the junta. Why?

You clearly have a good technical grasp of the rules and intricacies of Thai Immigration. If you weren't so obsessed with authoritarianism, you could probably be as helpful to others as the mods here are.

Why be a d!ck?

• Less than 1% of visitors overstay so the 99+% was based on fact. Over 99% of visitors manage not to overstay.
• I didn't say I was speaking for the 99%. I offered an opinion based on the fact that many people complain on this forum about overstayers.

You're ignorant for not knowing the first point and immature for claiming I was doing the second.

Show me one post that I have cheer led the Junta! You are making it up to suit your own "game" and anti anyone with a different opinion than yours. Especially if it supports something done by the authorities.

I don't support authoritarianism and want the most relaxed practicable immigration policies possible. You and others don't seem to grasp the fact that overstayers are one group that cause immigration to apply stricter immigration policies across the board. I've a very good friend on a long overstay that I'm helping out so he can legalise himself before March 20th. Had jspill and his mates not taken the piss out of the system in increasing numbers over recent years my friend would have been able to continue going about his life. I don't want overstay bans, but I agree that they are the only way to reduce the problem and give the authorities one less thorn in their side that might lead to even stricter controls. If we all play the game we will all have an easier time of it!

I take the time to learn the laws and rules of the country so I know where I stand, and I just try to help people with facts so they know too. No obsession. This is a forum about immigration and often the rules/laws are relevant to the topic.

You clearly object to the "world of ideas, opinions" with your many personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with everything I say, but try and enter in to a conversation/debate rather than resorting to personal attacks which are only going to solicit the same in response.

"Why be a dick?" Ok. I'll recant, you're obviously not immature at all!

[OMGImInPattaya]

Regardless of one's position on overstays, I think we can agree that the cartoon is ridiculous and xenophobic.

Silly yes...funny yes...xenophobic no...and I highly doubt whichever Thai official that signed-off on it had any idea what it said or meant.

[elviajero]

Maybe the "arrested and prosecuted" means that if you commit a crime and get caught, like DUI or stealing from a shop, and they check your passport and your visa is already expired, you get the 5 year ban.

You don't need to commit two crimes to get "arrested and prosecuted" for overstaying. Even today anyone found with an overstay gets arrested (corrupt cop excluded), the court then prosecute the overstay, and the person is sent for deportation. With effect from March 20th they will also get a 5 or 10 year ban.

Edited January 18, 2016 by elviajero

[FritsSikkink]

Regardless of one's position on overstays, I think we can agree that the cartoon is ridiculous and xenophobic.

maybe you mean the royal me because i don't

[jspill]

Had jspill and his mates not taken the piss out of the system in increasing numbers over recent years

This seems to be about not liking digital nomads or the young, as your sentiment on overstay matches that on other related topics.

I think you'll find overstayers are overwhelmingly Africans who struggle to get visas, Laotians / Cambodians who do jobs Thais don't want to do, and western pensioners in Issan who are tired of the travelling for border runs and don't have 800k for a retirement visa.

[digibum]

Had jspill and his mates not taken the piss out of the system in increasing numbers over recent years

This seems to be about not liking digital nomads or the young, as your sentiment on overstay matches that on other related topics.

I think you'll find overstayers are overwhelmingly Africans who struggle to get visas, Laotians / Cambodians who do jobs Thais don't want to do, and western pensioners in Issan who are tired of the travelling for border runs and don't have 800k for a retirement visa.

Some things immigration does need to do:

Create a visa type for digital nomads. Certain types of digital nomads can be good for the economy. Someone who wants to base themselves out of Thailand but who travels frequently is probably better for the local economy than many expats working in Thailand. Obviously they should have some safeguards in place to keep out guys making $27 a month on eBay calling themselves digital nomads (like proof of company registration in another country, proof of income, etc) but overall I think this would be good for Thailand.

Clarify the country's policy on working online. Many expats who come live in Thailand either do consulting work, trade stocks/commodities, and other types of online-only jobs where their income is not, technically, being derived inside of Thailand. As such, it's questionable whether they need work permits and even if they wanted to apply for a work permit, how would they even go about doing so?

Again, many of these people do benefit the economy and they would be more likely to create jobs in Thailand if there was a clear mechanism for them to live in Thailand legally. Someone who isn't even sure if what they're doing is technically legal isn't going to start hiring personal assistants and other staff if doing so will make them a target for immigration.

As long as the government can keep it's hands off and not try to make them file for business licenses and whatever stupid stuff they can think of to milk the cow, this could be very beneficial for Thailand.

[elviajero]

Had jspill and his mates not taken the piss out of the system in increasing numbers over recent years

This seems to be about not liking digital nomads or the young, as your sentiment on overstay matches that on other related topics.

I think you'll find overstayers are overwhelmingly Africans who struggle to get visas, Laotians / Cambodians who do jobs Thais don't want to do, and western pensioners in Issan who are tired of the travelling for border runs and don't have 800k for a retirement visa.

• For the umpteenth time I have nothing against DN's, only those living and working here illegally and especially those that try to claim legitimacy. What does age have to do with it.
• By mates I was referring to your fellow overstayers be they African or other. Specifically overstayers that have chosen to overstay and brought about the necessity for change/bans.
• I have no doubt that when you include such a broad range that they represent the majority of overstayers. I get that you are ageist, but western pensioners in Isaan! Yeah I'm sure they far exceed the overstayers (under retirement age) of Pattaya, Phuket, Bangkok and Chiang Mai.

I work in IT and am 50. Am I too old to be classed as a digital nomad?

[jspill]

• For the umpteenth time I have nothing against DN's, only those living and working here illegally and especially those that try to claim legitimacy. What does age have to do with it.
• By mates I was referring to your fellow overstayers be they African or other. Specifically overstayers that have chosen to overstay and brought about the necessity for change/bans.
• I have no doubt that when you include such a broad range that they represent the majority of overstayers. I get that you are ageist, but western pensioners in Isaan! Yeah I'm sure they far exceed the overstayers (under retirement age) of Pattaya, Phuket, Bangkok and Chiang Mai.

I work in IT and am 50. Am I too old to be classed as a digital nomad?

Yeah I do think they do exceed the number of DNs who overstay. The definition of a DN being someone who simply works online and doesn't commit other crimes like being an illegal tour guide, ATM skimming, drug dealing etc., and their existence here is exactly the same as if they happened to be, say, married to a Thai and living here that way. Maybe they're in a transgender relationship and can't marry.

Not to be ageist, hats off to the older guys who just disappeared into the provinces and never did border runs. More power to them.

Edited January 18, 2016 by jspill

[TheKnave]

Why do you and your mentor consider that someone who defends the decision to ban overstayers is a Thai sycophant or anti farang? Assumptions like that just demonstrate ignorance or immaturity. The bottom line is that overstayers piss off many of the 99+% of us visitors that manage to stay within the rules and we have a right to voice an opinion.

No.

Ignorance and immaturity is someone pulling a number like "99+%" out of their fundament, and then appointing themselves spokesperson for that imaginary lot.

Immaturity is also acting as if someone said you don't have a right to YOUR opinion. The only thing is, people who disagree with you will be heard from.

Sorry if that hits one of your 'trigger points', or is a 'microaggression' for you.

Welcome to the world of ideas, and opinions.

Come to think of it, we've heard your opinion on this matter ad nauseam. We get it: you want overstayers punished more severely.

Is there some specific game you are trying to win here? One thing seems clear: you are usually the first to jump on any Immigration rules topic, and the biggest cheerleader for the junta. Why?

You clearly have a good technical grasp of the rules and intricacies of Thai Immigration. If you weren't so obsessed with authoritarianism, you could probably be as helpful to others as the mods here are.

Why be a d!ck?

• Less than 1% of visitors overstay so the 99+% was based on fact. Over 99% of visitors manage not to overstay.
• I didn't say I was speaking for the 99%. I offered an opinion based on the fact that many people complain on this forum about overstayers.

You're ignorant for not knowing the first point and immature for claiming I was doing the second.

Show me one post that I have cheer led the Junta! You are making it up to suit your own "game" and anti anyone with a different opinion than yours. Especially if it supports something done by the authorities.

I don't support authoritarianism and want the most relaxed practicable immigration policies possible. You and others don't seem to grasp the fact that overstayers are one group that cause immigration to apply stricter immigration policies across the board. I've a very good friend on a long overstay that I'm helping out so he can legalise himself before March 20th. Had jspill and his mates not taken the piss out of the system in increasing numbers over recent years my friend would have been able to continue going about his life. I don't want overstay bans, but I agree that they are the only way to reduce the problem and give the authorities one less thorn in their side that might lead to even stricter controls. If we all play the game we will all have an easier time of it!

I take the time to learn the laws and rules of the country so I know where I stand, and I just try to help people with facts so they know too. No obsession. This is a forum about immigration and often the rules/laws are relevant to the topic.

You clearly object to the "world of ideas, opinions" with your many personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with everything I say, but try and enter in to a conversation/debate rather than resorting to personal attacks which are only going to solicit the same in response.

"Why be a dick?" Ok. I'll recant, you're obviously not immature at all!

So, let me get this straight: your overstaying friend could have continued overstaying with impunity, if not for jspill and his overstaying friends?

So typical of the hang 'em high brigades circular logic.

Yeah, you want 'relaxed, practicable' Immigration policies. For your friends.

Meanwhile, I'll admit it was not like me to take it to a personal level by referring to you as a d!ck. It took me letting the terms. 'bitter old man', slide several times before I stooped to your level. And now you invoke ageism?

I'd go on, but, really, what's the point? We've all heard and noted your opinion, and you have attracted several followers. When is enough for you? You feel you need to vanquish all opponents?

As I said, I have no dog in this fight any longer. At least for the short term, you and your ilk will have the Thailand you want, and so richly deserve. I will have to watch from the sidelines, sadly.

And I know it's infuriating to hear, but 10 years as a keyboard warrior in Thailand just isn't enough to even think you have perspective. You are a newbie, and with your attitude, will remain so.

This entire trend started in '97, with "the UN is not my father...". Before that, Thailand, overstayers and miscreants, and all, was an Asian Tiger, with foreign investment, growing tourism, and positive foreign relations, with the West, and with her neighbors.

Now, it's flailing around, broken, sinking, looking for scapegoats, and whipping up anti-foreigner cartoons.

Enjoy.

Oh, and please take this opportunity to deliver the last word, as I am done with this topic.

All yours and welcome to it.

[Cook my sock]

Are people complaining about the action or the way it's put?

The issue I have is with the new governments rampant xenophobia. This surely has a trickle down effect. It worries me a lot since I've just moved here.

Not to be argumentative...but how is making an effort to enforce laws and regulations that have been on the books for years "xenophobia"?

Can not it be seen as a reasonable and responsible effort to upgrade enforcement of Thailand's immigration and border controls in this world of increased terrorism and economic/political refugee flows? I mean, the world is not the same place it was 10 or even 5 years ago...and all countries are staking steps to increase their border and internal security.

I've lived here for more than a decade and have not detected any change in the average Thai's or the government's attitude to foreigners either visiting, working, or retiring in The Kingdom. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you...assuming you're qualified to be here under the status you entered.

Not just in the context of this cartoon.

Of course this happens in all countries to an extent, but there's quite a menacing undertone towards anything foreign which I didn't feel under any previous leader

Maybe this attitude spooked foreign investors too..

Edited January 18, 2016 by Cook my sock

[asean]

Meanwhile.....Cambodia begs: "Please ramp up the abuse of Thailand's farangs, so we can have the overflow." Perhaps the most dense, obtuse immigration in the developing world. Someone PLEASE explain to them that you DO NOT grow an economy by abusing your cash cows.

There are people who actually want to live in Cambodia?

[Cook my sock]

Gary Glitter?

[asean]

Now for the really important question. There is no such thing as an automatic blacklist lifting. Every blacklist after the penalty time has to be appealed to be removed. The appeal process is long and expensive. It can take up to two years for an appeal to even make it in front of the deciding committee. An application for appeal can only be lodged at a Thai border or point of entry and the applicant has to wait seven days before they even know if the application will be accepted. If accepted they can enter the country only for the amount of time allowed on their visa. They cannot extend or renew the visa while the blacklist is under appeal. So have to leave again. Immigration will have to overhaul the appeal process when this law is enacted.

[elviajero]

So, let me get this straight: your overstaying friend could have continued overstaying with impunity, if not for jspill and his overstaying friends?

So typical of the hang 'em high brigades circular logic.

Yeah, you want 'relaxed, practicable' Immigration policies. For your friends.

Meanwhile, I'll admit it was not like me to take it to a personal level by referring to you as a d!ck. It took me letting the terms. 'bitter old man', slide several times before I stooped to your level. And now you invoke ageism?

I'd go on, but, really, what's the point? We've all heard and noted your opinion, and you have attracted several followers. When is enough for you? You feel you need to vanquish all opponents?

As I said, I have no dog in this fight any longer. At least for the short term, you and your ilk will have the Thailand you want, and so richly deserve. I will have to watch from the sidelines, sadly.

And I know it's infuriating to hear, but 10 years as a keyboard warrior in Thailand just isn't enough to even think you have perspective. You are a newbie, and with your attitude, will remain so.

This entire trend started in '97, with "the UN is not my father...". Before that, Thailand, overstayers and miscreants, and all, was an Asian Tiger, with foreign investment, growing tourism, and positive foreign relations, with the West, and with her neighbors.

Now, it's flailing around, broken, sinking, looking for scapegoats, and whipping up anti-foreigner cartoons.

Enjoy.

Oh, and please take this opportunity to deliver the last word, as I am done with this topic.

All yours and welcome to it.

My friend is 72 years old and paralysed following several stokes. You can probably work out how someone in that situation gets to overstay. However, now that the bans are coming he doesn't want the chance of being caught and banned from the home he's known for 30+ years. He's old, frail and wants to see his time out here. So big cheer for all those voluntary overstayers

What's difficult for you to comprehend about agreeing that the bans are needed to solve the overstay problem but preferring they didn't exist? I don't make the rules, the bans are coming anyway!

Maybe I should add senility to my opinion of you. Your posts, not just in this thread, are littered with insult and assumptions about people whom you know nothing of. You are clearly obsessed that the duration someone has lived here determines their credibility. You described me as a "newcomer", then said that those that have recently shown up come from a "repressive shithole", are "puny carpetbaggers", and that I am a "smug", "government sycophant". I could go on too about all the incorrect assumptions and accusations, but I think you get the point. Either you're senile or were lying when you wrote "it was not like me to take it to a personal level".

If I'm wrong about you being bitter or old I apologise. Although I'm pretty sure you're old and based on your posts you come across as really bitter.

Please let me know how many more years it will be before I reach your level of enlightenment and perspective. Do I need to put in another 20 years?

I think the overstay video is outrageous and as usual they've dropped the ball.

Word.

[Maestro]

...

I work in IT and am 50. Am I too old to be classed as a digital nomad?

You're old enough to get the one-year retirement extension, which will make life much easier for you.

[FritsSikkink]

Had jspill and his mates not taken the piss out of the system in increasing numbers over recent years

This seems to be about not liking digital nomads or the young, as your sentiment on overstay matches that on other related topics.

I think you'll find overstayers are overwhelmingly Africans who struggle to get visas, Laotians / Cambodians who do jobs Thais don't want to do, and western pensioners in Issan who are tired of the travelling for border runs and don't have 800k for a retirement visa.

Some things immigration does need to do:

Create a visa type for digital nomads. Certain types of digital nomads can be good for the economy. Someone who wants to base themselves out of Thailand but who travels frequently is probably better for the local economy than many expats working in Thailand. Obviously they should have some safeguards in place to keep out guys making $27 a month on eBay calling themselves digital nomads (like proof of company registration in another country, proof of income, etc) but overall I think this would be good for Thailand.

Clarify the country's policy on working online. Many expats who come live in Thailand either do consulting work, trade stocks/commodities, and other types of online-only jobs where their income is not, technically, being derived inside of Thailand. As such, it's questionable whether they need work permits and even if they wanted to apply for a work permit, how would they even go about doing so?

Again, many of these people do benefit the economy and they would be more likely to create jobs in Thailand if there was a clear mechanism for them to live in Thailand legally. Someone who isn't even sure if what they're doing is technically legal isn't going to start hiring personal assistants and other staff if doing so will make them a target for immigration.

As long as the government can keep it's hands off and not try to make them file for business licenses and whatever stupid stuff they can think of to milk the cow, this could be very beneficial for Thailand.

dream on, what a load of crock

[jspill]

dream on, what a load of crock

Wouldn't you be happy then, as DNs would be paying taxes with no grey area in the legal debate?

Like Germany's freelancer visa.

[pizzachang]

All sounds good to me. If you want to stay here do it properly, as in any other country, or face the consequences. Why do foreigners think it is ok to abuse the system of the country they are visitors in?

Yeah, guess a person would have to go to the USA (illegally) to get around the penalties! Being from the US....I don't think it is wise to 'point fingers' at Thailand's problems of enforcing immigration law - USA 12 MILLION illegals and counting!

[mgjackson69]

All sounds good to me. If you want to stay here do it properly, as in any other country, or face the consequences. Why do foreigners think it is ok to abuse the system of the country they are visitors in?

Yeah, guess a person would have to go to the USA (illegally) to get around the penalties! Being from the US....I don't think it is wise to 'point fingers' at Thailand's problems of enforcing immigration law - USA 12 MILLION illegals and counting!

It seems that Thailand is at least trying to address part of the problem...whereas our home country (USA) just keeps arguing about it while not taking any action.

[elviajero]

Had jspill and his mates not taken the piss out of the system in increasing numbers over recent years

This seems to be about not liking digital nomads or the young, as your sentiment on overstay matches that on other related topics.

I think you'll find overstayers are overwhelmingly Africans who struggle to get visas, Laotians / Cambodians who do jobs Thais don't want to do, and western pensioners in Issan who are tired of the travelling for border runs and don't have 800k for a retirement visa.

Some things immigration does need to do:

Create a visa type for digital nomads. Certain types of digital nomads can be good for the economy. Someone who wants to base themselves out of Thailand but who travels frequently is probably better for the local economy than many expats working in Thailand. Obviously they should have some safeguards in place to keep out guys making $27 a month on eBay calling themselves digital nomads (like proof of company registration in another country, proof of income, etc) but overall I think this would be good for Thailand.

Clarify the country's policy on working online. Many expats who come live in Thailand either do consulting work, trade stocks/commodities, and other types of online-only jobs where their income is not, technically, being derived inside of Thailand. As such, it's questionable whether they need work permits and even if they wanted to apply for a work permit, how would they even go about doing so?

Again, many of these people do benefit the economy and they would be more likely to create jobs in Thailand if there was a clear mechanism for them to live in Thailand legally. Someone who isn't even sure if what they're doing is technically legal isn't going to start hiring personal assistants and other staff if doing so will make them a target for immigration.

As long as the government can keep it's hands off and not try to make them file for business licenses and whatever stupid stuff they can think of to milk the cow, this could be very beneficial for Thailand.

I don't understand why DN's think they should be singled out for special treatment. If Thailand is going to open the doors to foreigners to run businesses here it should be for all and not just the special few who believe their ability to work anywhere means they can work anywhere.

Edited January 19, 2016 by elviajero