Who's in the wrong? Motorbike crashes into pedestrian, 2nd moto flips

[gemguy]

Class act! The pedestrian who caused the crash walks away while a fellow human being lays motionless in the road. Nice.

are you blind?

the motorcycle was in the wrong lane and hit the pedestrian.

If you go strictly by the book, both the pedestrian and the motorcycle driver were wrong.

In a court of law the pedestrian would be held accountable for his actions while the motorcycle driver would be held accountable for his actions also.

But, who should be held more accountable?

The motorcycle driver, as he was the one operating a motor vehicle while the motor vehicle laws are formulated and or evolved around the safe and responsible and accountable use of any kind of motor vehicle operated with a valid license to operate.

The pedestrian performed a dangerous move also....but he was not operating a motor vehicle and considered less liable for his actions.

The motorcycle driver in effect can not feign innocence and divert the blame and claim the pedestrian was to blame for the accident as the motorcycle driver was performing an illegal act under the motor vehicle rules and laws.....and standards?

I doubt that the Thai motor vehicle operators rules and laws omit driving on the opposite of the road and over taking using the opposite lane while what the motorcycle driver did do, as seen in the video, is considered dangerous and reckless by consensus regardless of the rules and laws.

As I had said before it would be interesting to know what the insurance companies take on such an accident would be.

If either party was to sue one another who would be deemed wrong in the eyes of the insurance company and or the law or a judge.

Cheers

[metisdead]

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[losername]

I find it difficult to comprehend that so many in this thread allocate blame only to the motorcyclist. I hope that those of you with children do not teach them to cross the road in the same way as the pedestrian in this video. The blame must surely be shared.

[IsItFlab]

Well I am talking about Thainess as the translation of "kwam bpen Thai", not some idea that a bunch of expats think it is.

As I can't put the Thai version here(for some bizarre reason), I've translated the following myself to show you what Thainess is:

Refers to things that indicate the nature of the Thai people, art, culture, customs and traditions of the Thai.

Those who proudly love Thainess, appreciate, praise, and protect by their conduct, the continuation and propagation of Thai people’s attributes along with Art, Culture, Customs and Traditions

In reality the attributes are corruption, xenophobia, a lack of common sense, logic and reason and emotional immaturity with a strong tendency to explode into violence if the poor darlings lose face. The only art and culture that is worth anything at all is country music and dance, the rest is hi so supported antiquated frozen in time junk or western parody.

Wow, do you have ANY Thai friends Jacky?

99.9% chance that he DOESN'T.

[novo58]

I find it difficult to comprehend that so many in this thread allocate blame only to the motorcyclist. I hope that those of you with children do not teach them to cross the road in the same way as the pedestrian in this video. The blame must surely be shared.

Maybe you can enlighten us all as to just how one does cross the road here in Thailand then..............a country with minimal if any pedestrian crossing areas( which are always ignored by thai drivers anyway).................even less light controlled crossing areas and away from Bangkok very few over road walkways.

Oh , I know ..............if you are not in a vehicle you simply dont cross the road , if you are in a vehicle you just do a turn anywhere ( without indicating or any warning to other road users).

IMO, the pedestrian did EVERYTHING right, waited until traffic was at a standstill, looked BOTH ways repeatedly, got safely to the middle, looked BOTH ways again, waited for a bike in far lane to pass, (I believe) saw the bike coming towards him in near side lane and moved into the FAR SIDE lane to avoid the bike which then DROVE INTO THE WRONG SIDE OF THE ROAD and hit the pedestrian.

What more could the pedestrian have done ????? Apart from not cross the road at all.

[losername]

What more could the pedestrian have done ????? Apart from not cross the road at all.

Just wait for the motorcycle to pass. Obvious.

[FritsSikkink]

What more could the pedestrian have done ????? Apart from not cross the road at all.

Just wait for the motorcycle to pass. Obvious.

the motorcycle wasn't allowed to be there in the first place

[losername]

That's why they should share the blame. Both acted stupidly.

[Koolhand]

Thailand and Thai thought process.. Hmmm... ... why don't it surprise me here why they have to ask "who's at fault" ... everyone knows it's most definitely the ghost from Christmas past who's at fault! I would suspect that they will now attempt to pass a law that all who walk on or beside the road must be wearing a crash test dummy hat.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Koolhand

[FritsSikkink]

That's why they should share the blame. Both acted stupidly.

no, the motorcycle broke a couple of rules, wrong lane, no over taking there, to much speed. the pedestrian was pretty carefull

[losername]

That's why they should share the blame. Both acted stupidly.

no, the motorcycle broke a couple of rules, wrong lane, no over taking there, to much speed. the pedestrian was pretty carefull

No argument there except that the pedestrian walked out in front of a speeding motorcycle. As I have said repeatedly, shared blame.

[FritsSikkink]

That's why they should share the blame. Both acted stupidly.

no, the motorcycle broke a couple of rules, wrong lane, no over taking there, to much speed. the pedestrian was pretty carefull

No argument there except that the pedestrian walked out in front of a speeding motorcycle. As I have said repeatedly, shared blame.

which part of 'the motorcycle was in the wrong lane, he shouldn't be there' don't you understand?

[losername]

which part of 'the motorcycle was in the wrong lane, he shouldn't be there' don't you understand?

The bit that says it is therefore alright for a pedestrian to walk out in front of it, be knocked over and cause another impact as well. The blame should be shared.

[Bluespunk]

That's why they should share the blame. Both acted stupidly.

no, the motorcycle broke a couple of rules, wrong lane, no over taking there, to much speed. the pedestrian was pretty carefull

No argument there except that the pedestrian walked out in front of a speeding motorcycle. As I have said repeatedly, shared blame.

No, a pedestrian crossing the road was run down by a motorbike on the wrong side of the road. Only one to blame is the one driving on the wrong side of the road.

[losername]

No, a pedestrian crossing the road was run down by a motorbike on the wrong side of the road. Only one to blame is the one driving on the wrong side of the road.

A pedestrian who does not think that traffic ever drives on the wrong side of the road in Thailand and therefore believes that he is safe once he is halfway across is putting himself, and in this case, other road users in danger. Shared blame for sure.

[losername]

My last word on this. If it is so difficult for us to allocate blame in this, the RTP must have a really difficult job at RTC scenes.

[flyDelight]

There is no question of who is (double) wrong, only one idiot here, hopefully he will suffer the rest of his life.

[CarolJadzia]

Hindsight Bias

Experiments on the hindsight bias have shown that: (a) people overestimate what they would have known in foresight, ( they also overestimate what others knew in foresight, and © they actually misremember what they themselves knew in foresight. Taken together, the outcome and hindsight biases have strong implications for error analyses. • Decisions and actions having a negative outcome will be judged more harshly than if the same process had resulted in a neutral or positive outcome. We can expect this result even when judges are warned about the phenomenon and have been advised to guard against it. • Judges will tend to believe that people involved in some incident knew more about their situation than they actually did. Judges will tend to think that people should have seen how their actions would lead up to the outcome failure.

(Perspectives on Human Error: Hindsight Biases and Local Rationality)

We all can sit in judgement and long as we can find someone to fault we will all be happy that it is not our problem

We all use the roads everyday, by far the highest amount of interactions between humans either pedestrians or motorised pass without incident. Millions of interactions on a daily basis.

In such a system conflicts will occur.

Neither of the people who caused the OP infraction were doing anything different to what thousands of other people do everyday.

[Bluespunk]

No, a pedestrian crossing the road was run down by a motorbike on the wrong side of the road. Only one to blame is the one driving on the wrong side of the road.

A pedestrian who does not think that traffic ever drives on the wrong side of the road in Thailand and therefore believes that he is safe once he is halfway across is putting himself, and in this case, other road users in danger. Shared blame for sure.

Nope.

Motorcycle was on wrong side of the road.

They and they alone are to blame.

[FritsSikkink]

My last word on this. If it is so difficult for us to allocate blame in this, the RTP must have a really difficult job at RTC scenes.

it is only difficult for you because you haven't got a clue about traffic rules. please sell your bike

[trogers]

I find it difficult to comprehend that so many in this thread allocate blame only to the motorcyclist. I hope that those of you with children do not teach them to cross the road in the same way as the pedestrian in this video. The blame must surely be shared.

Maybe you can enlighten us all as to just how one does cross the road here in Thailand then..............a country with minimal if any pedestrian crossing areas( which are always ignored by thai drivers anyway).................even less light controlled crossing areas and away from Bangkok very few over road walkways.

Oh , I know ..............if you are not in a vehicle you simply dont cross the road , if you are in a vehicle you just do a turn anywhere ( without indicating or any warning to other road users).

IMO, the pedestrian did EVERYTHING right, waited until traffic was at a standstill, looked BOTH ways repeatedly, got safely to the middle, looked BOTH ways again, waited for a bike in far lane to pass, (I believe) saw the bike coming towards him in near side lane and moved into the FAR SIDE lane to avoid the bike which then DROVE INTO THE WRONG SIDE OF THE ROAD and hit the pedestrian.

What more could the pedestrian have done ????? Apart from not cross the road at all.

Dear Sir, was riding my bike on the extreme right, overtaking the jammed cars, when all of a sudden, this guy in purple shirt just got beamed down in front of me. You know, like in Star Trek...

[canuckamuck]

If it were a simple case of a pedestrian hit by a vehicle travelling in the wrong direction. There would be no question as to blame. But people also want to make the pedestrian guilty because he was jaywalking. But the fact of the matter is you can't just run over a guy because he is in your way. Especially if you are travelling in the wrong direction. The pedestrian was in plain sight and the motorcyclist made a negligent decision disregarding the safety of others.

The motorcyclist crossed over to the oncoming lane to jump the que and should be responsible for the collision that occurred as a result.

Of course reckless behaviour followed by finding a scapegoat is a national institution.

[Gumballl]

My $0.02.. Purple Shirt person was jay-walking, and was the cause of the accident. End of discussion.

[Bench499d]

My $0.02.. Purple Shirt person was jay-walking, and was the cause of the accident. End of discussion.

I'm pretty sure there's no such thing as jay-walking in Thailand except on Sukhumvit in BKK where they trap the unsuspecting tourists...but anyway how the hell can you do someone for jay-walking when the traffic never stops at the places designated to cross the roads? Edited January 24, 2016 by Bench499d

[GlutinousMaximus]

As a child, the UK Green Cross Code was drummed in to me with hard-hitting adverts fronted by actor David Prowse (AKA Darth Vader in a later incarnation). One of the things they stressed was don't start crossing between parked cars (as clearly it affects your visibility for oncoming traffic). It's fairly simple stuff but spot on - I say it to my child when we cross the road.

I'm often amazed at the lack of spatial awareness from local pedestrians....about time they had a similar TV campaign here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Cross_Code#The_code

The Green Cross Code itself is a short step-by-step procedure designed to enable pedestrians to cross streets safely. While the Code has undergone several changes over the years, the basic tenets ("Stop, Look, Listen, Think" or "Stop Look Listen Live".) have remained more or less the same. The 2005 version of the Green Cross Code reads as follows:

THINK! Find the safest place to cross, then stop.

STOP! Stand on the pavement near the kerb.

USE YOUR EYES AND EARS! Look all around for traffic, and listen.

WAIT UNTIL IT'S SAFE TO CROSS! If traffic is coming, let it pass.

LOOK AND LISTEN! When it's safe, walk straight across the road.

ARRIVE ALIVE! Keep looking and listening

Edited January 24, 2016 by GlutinousMaximus

[novo58]

@gumball ........................please educate us all with a definition of .................."jaywalking". And how to cross Thai roads without any crossing areas ( that are ignored by drivers anyway).

@ Glutinous Maximus Seems to me the pedestrian did all in your Code....................he stopped , he looked ( several times), I'm sure he probably listened but who could be sure).......

He waited until it was safe to cross the first lane ..................as ALL the traffic around him was stopped and not moving anywhere. He got to the middle of the road ...........stopped/looked /maybe listened again)............then seeing no danger he walked onto the far side of the road whilst paying attention to the traffic coming from his LEFT....................which is the only place that traffic should have legally been coming from on that side of the road.

If we were to make assumptions ( I know - not a good idea)...............but my guess is that the motorbike had zig-zagged thru cars, possibly from the left hand side of the road to get to the middle of the road and immediately accelerated without due care of other road users ( and that includes pedestrians). It is a case of lack of patience, lack of care and lack of responsibility by the motorbike driver.

[Bluespunk]

The green cross code man needs to give advice to the idiots driving on the wrong side of the road rather than pedestrians.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Bluespunk

[hawker9000]

Crosswalks (at road intersections) can be quite far apart - you won't find them where mere sois let out. And zebra striped crossings are as roundly ignored by motorbike drivers as is the centerline. This leaves pedestrians with no safe options. They have no choice but to cross where (& when) they think they can.

Motorbike drivers in Thailand drive like morons, swerving out from behind large vehicles, gunning the throttle, completely oblivious to the presence of pedestrians. It's amazing more pedestrians aren't injured this way (or maybe they are and we just don't read about it). Expats & tourists are quick to mimic the locals, and all too often display the same reckless disregard for anyone else's safety. 'Wish the RTP would do something useful and start citing the reckless driving.

[thailand49]

Finding fault is important by doing so we can cite the party or parties so it isn't done again and again. But this is Thailand right where the driving habits and rules/laws all taken from the West has been diluted to the point it is unrecognizable any longer. You have heard the saying from Thais " This is Thailand " yes today Thailand in the last ten years has moved up year after year to being the second worse by a WHO report for accident in the world, only Iran is ahead of them and that isn't saying much.

When you look at the vehicle think about this and my views come from years of living here and driving. Having trained with the Department of Transportation in the Commercial driving area along with dealing with California Hwy Patrol to identify accidents. And this being a accident in Thailand, from my experience there aren't too many crosswalks around and it they exist normally they are KM away, this is not a country that pedestrian have the Right of Way.

Here is what I concluded from the video, The pedestrian from the sidewalk look back to his right checking out the oncoming traffic before he even step in front of the car and when he was in front again this time taking a much longer look knowing full will this time he was entering into traffic to cross, for the third and last time he look back to his right and this time I believe he saw the motorbike coming from behind and also saw the motorbike coming towards him. Why? After the last look to the right you can see him jump or increase his movement, because he saw the motorbike coming towards him and knowing there was a bike coming from behind wanted to dash forward so the motorbike coming towards him did not need to stop or slow down.

As for the motorbike that hit him from behind, I seen this move a number of times twice it ended in the death of the motorbike driver. This move or intent stems from a simple condition of lack of patience. That every CM, counts even if it cost you your life. Although it is very common for drivers here to do it and I do it all the time myself on the right or left crossing over a marked line I'm not suppose to do. The difference I do it with caution and slow down knowing full well something might pop out unexpected?

In this particular case although from the video it look like the motorbike from behind never saw the pedestrian. There was no indication of any immediate braking or body reaction from the driver Why? and like I said I've seen this reaction before. It should be noted that the motorbike was already 25% into a lane the bike shouldn't have been. Just as the pedestrian took his last look back a second later he started to dash behind the oncoming bike the bike behind instead of doing going behind the pedestrian for some odd reason decided it would go in front of him at the same moment the pedestrian made his dash. You can clearly see contact was made when it happen. At the point of contact the motorbike is near if not 50% into the other lane. Even if the motorbike was to avoid contact with the pedestrian it would have made contact with the on coming motorbike. Either way the other bike would have gone down. Although people want to blame the pedestrian, I ask where is the crosswalk? Here is Pattaya Beach Road and around town they spent 125 million on cross walk with lights using them is taking your own life in your hands. If you did stop for a pedestrian someone would smash into you from behind? This was and is the fault of the motorbike coming from behind for not slowing down and being cautious to the road condition at hand.

My repeat. Listen or watch the News commentator hand gestures, he Thai, is basically saying that both the pedestrian and motorbike had seen each other before the accident and that the pedestrian at the last second dash forward to allow the on coming bike to pass so it didn't have to slow down and he didn't have to be in the way of the motorbike in back of him. The commentator gesture the normal route was for the motorbike to move left slightly behind the pedestrian. The pedestrian never envision that the motorbike would try to overtake him that far into the other lane.

Even in the West, this jaywalker pretty much did all the right things as jaywalker goes.. He looked several times and moved forward based on what he saw coming in the other direction, each of his movement after each look suggest that to be the case, what he didn't expect was a driver unwilling to give way even when he was 50% into the other lane going the other direction. Remember not 50% in the middle of both lanes! Even the Thai Commentator felt that way as to why the motorbike try to overtake the pedestrian so far into the other lane.

As for people talking about crosswalk... maybe people should be more observant when in Thailand. There are very few. I use these two Soi a lot in Pattaya, Soi Nernpludwan and Soi Siam Country, this road is very similar and both runs for miles with maybe one or two crosswalks usually at the schools. If one is looking for a crosswalk you might have to hire a motorbike taxi to take you to one, and once you get there would hire him again to take you back to where you started except you would be on the other side. If he was stupid he would do it, but if he was smart once you get on, he looks behind him to make sure the traffic is cleared and make a illegal U-turn and drop you off and still charge you the same.

A reminder, the question was who is in the wrong.. the topic is looking for a survey who might be wrong! I like some say it takes two to tango but in this case I give a greater % to the motorbike. Even in West standard this Thai guy did everything a good jaywalker would do but again he never expected this driver to be so relentless. To avoid this whole mess all the motorbike driver had to do was relax his right hand off the gas for a second that itself would have slow down the bike!

Edited January 24, 2016 by thailand49

[GlutinousMaximus]

To my mind, this video gives a vignette of all the things that are wrong about the road scene in Thailand:

• Lack of proper provision for pedestrians to cross safely
  
• Lack of spatial awareness by pedestrians
  
• Complete lack of consideration for pedestrians by drivers
  

In terms of apportioning blame (not that being 'in the right' matters when you're dead) , I think it's a case of six of one and half a dozen of the other. As a lifelong Thai pedestrian, the guy crossing the road should have known better - anyone who's spent more than a week here knows there are no 'rules' and traffic can come from any direction at any time. If I cross the road here, I only do it when there's a big gap and my head is constantly swivelling 360 degrees (like the girl in The Exorcist) until I'm on the other side.

I've also done (on a bike) what the motorbike is doing - i.e. overtaking (in the wrong lane) a queue of stopped cars to get ahead of them and be first at the light. I look out for pedestrians however and am ready to cut back in to my lane if there's an oncoming car and I don't normally travel over 20kph doing a manoeuvre like that.

I still maintain that the Green Cross Code holds good here - if you do cross between cars that are close together (either parked or in a queue like here), you need to be hyper-vigilant (because oncoming traffic can't easily see you) and it didn't look to me like the pedestrian was thoroughly checking both ways - he glanced over his shoulder about a second before being hit, but didn't look round far enough.

Having said that, as a pedestrian I've been surprised and annoyed at how downright dangerous people in cars/bikes can act - you can be crossing in front of slow moving traffic carrying a child, and they won't even take their foot off the gas, and if you didn't hurry out of their way, they'd hit you.

Edited January 24, 2016 by GlutinousMaximus