Netanyahu pledges to protect Israel 'from predatory animals'

[arjunadawn]

Its really informative to read the posts on TV whenever news of Israel/Palestinians come up. Regardless of the merits of each point of view the discourse itself is so instructive as to why this issue is intractable. The larger global discourse on these issues is a macrocosm of the exact same noise here. In this regard alone such threads are very informative. They also reveal what emotions look like when they are couched as intellect.

[Jingthing]

Its really informative to read the posts on TV whenever news of Israel/Palestinians come up. Regardless of the merits of each point of view the discourse itself is so instructive as to why this issue is intractable. The larger global discourse on these issues is a macrocosm of the exact same noise here. In this regard alone such threads are very informative. They also reveal what emotions look like when they are couched as intellect.

Yeah, I suppose.

I don't pretend to be objective and I don't much believe anyone who claims to be totally objective on the Israel-Palestinian conflict.

I'm a Jew and very pro Zionist.

As in supporting the right of Israel to exist, to defend itself, and the right of the Jewish people to political self determination, manifested in the existence of the Jewish state of Israel.

I look at the world today and it's crystal clear that the Jewish people are under threat, in Israel and globally, at a level not seen since World War 2.

Growing up in the USA at a time when Jews experienced minor issues like discrimination with country club memberships, I never imagined I would live to see that, but I guess Israelis knew better as they've been living with strong forces dedicated to their end from day one of their nation.

So to ignore that now, seeing this again, is just total IDIOCY.

That's not the same thing as supporting all Israeli government policies (such as settlement policy) or not acknowledging that Palestinians have legitimate grievances. Of course, they do.

Given support for a TWO STATE solution, this more and better walls and fences direction makes GOOD SENSE.

I can see that forces that REALLY never want a two state solution (regardless of deceptive lip service hiding the real agenda -- the END of Israel) would not like this idea at all.

Anyway, I share your impression that this conflict seems highly intractable. Impossible to solve peacefully, no, but very very hard and no quick fixes.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Jingthing

[Morch]

As usual, posters focus on the least relevant bit of the OP (the last line, for those who need a pointer), mainly to air their standing agendas and bias.

Now, the thing is, the main story in the OP got nothing to do with the Palestinians. The fence in question runs along a bit of Israel's border with Jordan, starting from the Southernmost point. Nowhere near Palestinian territory. The construction of the fence is coordinated with Jordan, which supports the move (especially as it costs them nothing). The current built up fence is but 30 km long, still a ways to go until it reaches more controversial areas. At the pace the project advances, this would take a few years at least. Due to geographical conditions and the border being relatively quiet, the older fence which marked it went into disrepair. There is a similar fence running along the Israeli border with Egypt, again - nothing to do with the Palestinians, and no objections by the other side.

While Netanyahu's rhetoric is inflammatory and over the top as usual, ISIS is a reality in the Middle East. Their Sinai peninsula branch is quite active, and no reason to assume that they are not eyeing operation in Jordan. Having a de facto open border is not an advisable course of action under these conditions. The fence along the Egyptian border proved helpful decreasing the number of illegal African migrants, as well as serving its purpose countering terrorist attacks. As a downside (for some Israelis), it also spelled rocketing prices of brown/green smoking materials....

Noted by others on this topic, worth pointing out again that similar fences exit and are being constructed all over the globe. Members usually don't go off on one when these are mentioned. Can't recall much of an outrage on this forum when Egypt flatted down a few rows of houses, dug a sizable ditch and built up a fence along its border with the Gaza Strip. Just an example, some European countries are at it as well. Also, for those visually challenged, it is a fence - not a wall.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Morch

[Morch]

Back to the OP..

I am curious as to why Naftali Bennett, one of the most extreme right wing of Netanyahu's cabinet criticized Netanyahu's OP fence proposal

"Commenting on the proposal, Bennett said: “The prime minister spoke today about how fences are needed. We are wrapping ourselves in fences. In Australia and New Jersey there is no need for fences.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/10/netanyahu-plans-fence-around-israel-to-protect-it-from-wild-beasts

Bennett routinely challenges Netanyahu on security issues. This is mainly done as to position Bennett as a strong, uncompromising leader, and a possible future alternative to Netanyahu. With Netanyahu's coalition hanging by a thread, there is little he can do about this. Another take is that it allows Netanyahu to present himself as the (relatively) moderate and responsible option. A lot of it boils down to Israel's political culture allowing ministers to freely comment on issues unrelated to their portfolios (Bennett is currently the Minister of Education), and to Bennett himself acting as if he is in the opposition rather than a part of the government he criticizes.

Bennett is more of an offense is the best defense person. So anything that does not imply direct action is criticized by him. Obviously, not being positioned in any relevant ministerial role makes such ideas easier to air, without the need to deal with their consequences. Sort of like posting on TVF.

[Morch]

"Good fences make good neighbors"..provided that both sets of neighbors agree on the fence line.

There is a third possibility...an estrangement with both partners more or less living in the same house. A loose?? confederation of 2 countries with agreed upon borders, with 2 parliaments and citizenships of passport holders who are allowed to live, work and worship in each others' countries provided they abide by the law, but not vote. Something like the arrangement that Canada/USA and Australia/NZ have.

Other than the OP dealing with the Israeli-Jordanian border, was there much bad blood between Canada and the USA? A vast economic difference?

How's about comparing the situation to the way things stand between the USA and its Southern neighbor?

Edited February 13, 2016 by Morch

[Morch]

I believe Netanyahu is doing the right thing. Next, he should set up some boots to sell Zoo tickets to make some money maybe. And some high sitting places and here we go a big zoo called Israel!

and nonsense.

yes, i lived close to there and what i see Israelis live just fine apart from some occasional rockets and with the aid coming from USA. I have lots of Israeli friends in the Israeli Army doing their mandatory service and they hate all moments of it.

Most Israelis that i know all hate this war and hate Israeli government too. I met with many really nice Israelis running from the mandatory army as they believe it is not their war.

Moreover, most army personal at the front lines are either Arab Israelis or Russian migrated during last two decades(which most lied with fake documents and are not real Jew too)

And yes, Israel plays a dangerous game by annexing the land does not belong to them.

and what does it mean 'do you get what Muslims are' and whats is the view of that religion? (it is almost racist IMO and i believe you aint know any s....h...t about any religion including your religion!)

bc their religion never want Israel annihilated. If they want to annihilate Jewish people there, they had a chance to do it for a millennium when there were no USA to protect them.

During Ottoman Empire control, there were no problems there too, just hundred years ago, zero problems between Jew and Muslim there. It all started when bigger imperialist world powers like USA wanted to use poor Jewish people as a lift and as a grip on these lands so there are always some problems and complications around middle east so they can interfere anytime or have right to say more words. wake up.

That you met like-minded Israelis is not surprising. Extrapolating or jumping to conclusions as to them being representative of general public views in Israel, is a bit of stretch.

As to the assertion that most IDF personnel in the font lines are either Arab Israelis or first/second generation Russian immigrants - laughable at best. Same goes for the rosy attempt at pseudo-historical presentation.

[Morch]

Its really informative to read the posts on TV whenever news of Israel/Palestinians come up. Regardless of the merits of each point of view the discourse itself is so instructive as to why this issue is intractable. The larger global discourse on these issues is a macrocosm of the exact same noise here. In this regard alone such threads are very informative. They also reveal what emotions look like when they are couched as intellect.

Same could be said about basically any of the divisive issues regularly coming up on this forum - any ME conflict (or all of them as a whole), USA elections, USA foreign policy, ways first world countries deal with third world countries, gun control, refugee/migrant crisis, Chinese economy, Chinese foreign policy, Russian foreign policy....just to name the "usual suspects".

[Morch]

Does that mean that everything on the otherside of the fence is Palestinian territory?

Jordanian.

If this was a reference to the West Bank security barrier, then de facto and in the long run, the answer would be yes.

Other than improving the security situation within Israel, the wall also serves to cement the territorial boundaries between communities, between what is "here" and what is "over there". A good indicator of how it serves as a de facto border would be to check figures of Israelis residing within Israel actually crossing over. I believe that compared to how things stood previously, there is less of that. It would be hard to maintain the notion that the West Bank is part of Israel with the wall around, kinda beats the argument.

From the Palestinian side, obviously some communities were adversely effected, but on a national level - it serves both as a great symbol to rally people, and at the same times, pretty much defines actual future borders.

[Jingthing]

Yeah, that's how I see it.

A superficially right wing appearing action actually supporting more moderate / leftist goals with the potential to help BOTH the Zionist nationalist (of those who will be OK eventually giving up west bank settlements) AND Palestinian Arab nationalist long term goals (of those who will be satisfied without taking over Tel Aviv).

If Morch is suggesting that the west bank will be integrated into Jordan, well, that's their business. Many analysts have commented that IF the Hamas like dream of taking over all of Israel ever happened, there wouldn't be a Palestinian state anyway, that the region would be integrated ... much of the Palestinian state impetus is more about no Jewish state than any specific "Palestinian" Arab identity which is actually a relatively modern concept in the first place.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Jingthing

[KC 71]

Give that man a bacon sarnie - thats what i say

[GeorgesAbitbol]

Yeah, that's how I see it.

A superficially right wing appearing action actually supporting more moderate / leftist goals with the potential to help BOTH the Zionist nationalist (of those who will OK eventually giving up west bank settlements) AND Palestinian Arab nationalist long term goals (of those who will be satisfied without taking over Tel Aviv).

If Morch is suggesting that the west bank will be integrated into Jordan, well, that's their business. Many analysts have commented that IF the Hamas like dream of taking over all of Israel ever happened, there wouldn't be a Palestinian state anyway, that the region would be integrated ... much of the Palestinian state impetus is more about no Jewish state than any specific "Palestinian" Arab identity which is actually a relatively modern concept in the first place.

Second paragraph you states would be a nightmare for Israel as the arab population would outrank the jewish in less than 2 generations and undermine the idea of Jewish State. How can the Palestinian may think of an identity as each day the Israeli Government approve illegal settlements and ask them to leave the land they have, and therefore a part of their identity

[Jingthing]

Give that man a bacon sarnie - thats what i say

I just checked it and he does keep Kosher.

What is it about some non-Jews and non-Muslims with their forced pig fetish? Put a kishka in it.

[Morch]

Nomads and Bedouins are crossing this area for centuries during the seasons change.

That's why all countries in the region and beyond with migrating people are never installing a separation wall with barb wire on their borders.

I would rather understand, but never accept, this drastic method due to the latest invasion of Yemeni rebels in Jazan (Saudi Arabian territory) and possible continuation and threat till the coastline of Jordan/Israel/Egypt around Eilat region.

Jordan awards Raytheon $18.6 million to expand border security

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2015/10/08/Jordan-awards-Raytheon-186-million-to-expand-border-security/8511444317010/

Tunisia finishes Libya border fence intended to keep out militants

http://www.jordantimes.com/news/region/tunisia-finishes-libya-border-fence-intended-keep-out-militants

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi%E2%80%93Iraq_barrier

[Morch]

Yeah, that's how I see it.

A superficially right wing appearing action actually supporting more moderate / leftist goals with the potential to help BOTH the Zionist nationalist (of those who will be OK eventually giving up west bank settlements) AND Palestinian Arab nationalist long term goals (of those who will be satisfied without taking over Tel Aviv).

If Morch is suggesting that the west bank will be integrated into Jordan, well, that's their business. Many analysts have commented that IF the Hamas like dream of taking over all of Israel ever happened, there wouldn't be a Palestinian state anyway, that the region would be integrated ... much of the Palestinian state impetus is more about no Jewish state than any specific "Palestinian" Arab identity which is actually a relatively modern concept in the first place.

I wasn't suggesting anything of the sort.

The area on the other side of the fence in question is Jordanian. The area on the other side of the Security Barrier (aka the wall) is Palestinian (more correctly, even some of the land on Israel's side of the wall is Palestinian).

The fence in question is nowhere near the Palestinian territory. As to how things could be sorted out between Israel, Jordan and the Palestinians with regard to the relevant parts of mutual borders and as to how relations between the Palestinians and Jordan may evolve - that's not part of the OP, nor part something I commented on.

[Morch]

Wow , all of Israel fenced in to keep the predators out , or the jews in ?

Anyway , it reminds me of the horrible concentration camps , when I see these photos of the huge Fence .

So happy I do not have to live there ...

Might be a good time to start looking into relocation options

Border wall to be built between Malaysia and Thailand next year

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/content/127824

[SABloke]

Netanyahu pledges to protect Israel 'from predatory animals'

His wife???

[Jingthing]

Netanyahu pledges to protect Israel 'from predatory animals'

His wife???

Is that your sexual fantasy?

Apparently there is a translation controversy here.

Did he say in Hebrew predatory animals or just simply predators?

Of course humans can be predators but it's more insulting to call humans animals, even though we are.

Many media outlets have incorrectly translated it to be "wild beasts" and reports are that was totally wrong, and of course, much more inflammatory.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Jingthing

[KC 71]

Give that man a bacon sarnie - thats what i say

I just checked it and he does keep Kosher.

What is it about some non-Jews and non-Muslims with their forced pig fetish? Put a kishka in it.

I bet you think prawns are dirty

[Jingthing]

Give that man a bacon sarnie - thats what i say

I just checked it and he does keep Kosher.

What is it about some non-Jews and non-Muslims with their forced pig fetish? Put a kishka in it.

I bet you think prawns are dirty

I've never kept Kosher, but I'm more into squid.

[Scott]

Let's stay on topic, please.

[NickJ]

I thought he was going to isolate his wife...........

[dexterm]

Back to the OP..

I am curious as to why Naftali Bennett, one of the most extreme right wing of Netanyahu's cabinet criticized Netanyahu's OP fence proposal

"Commenting on the proposal, Bennett said: “The prime minister spoke today about how fences are needed. We are wrapping ourselves in fences. In Australia and New Jersey there is no need for fences.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/10/netanyahu-plans-fence-around-israel-to-protect-it-from-wild-beasts

Bennett routinely challenges Netanyahu on security issues. This is mainly done as to position Bennett as a strong, uncompromising leader, and a possible future alternative to Netanyahu. With Netanyahu's coalition hanging by a thread, there is little he can do about this. Another take is that it allows Netanyahu to present himself as the (relatively) moderate and responsible option. A lot of it boils down to Israel's political culture allowing ministers to freely comment on issues unrelated to their portfolios (Bennett is currently the Minister of Education), and to Bennett himself acting as if he is in the opposition rather than a part of the government he criticizes.

Bennett is more of an offense is the best defense person. So anything that does not imply direct action is criticized by him. Obviously, not being positioned in any relevant ministerial role makes such ideas easier to air, without the need to deal with their consequences. Sort of like posting on TVF.

Thanks for your comment, but I honestly do not understand what Bennett means..."We are wrapping ourselves in fences. In Australia and New Jersey there is no need for fences." ?? Is he hinting at a one state solution or simply saying fences are a waste of money??

[dexterm]

"Good fences make good neighbors"..provided that both sets of neighbors agree on the fence line.

There is a third possibility...an estrangement with both partners more or less living in the same house. A loose?? confederation of 2 countries with agreed upon borders, with 2 parliaments and citizenships of passport holders who are allowed to live, work and worship in each others' countries provided they abide by the law, but not vote. Something like the arrangement that Canada/USA and Australia/NZ have.

Other than the OP dealing with the Israeli-Jordanian border, was there much bad blood between Canada and the USA? A vast economic difference?

How's about comparing the situation to the way things stand between the USA and its Southern neighbor?

There need not be bad blood for ever.That's what a peace agreement is meant to cure eventually.

Just throwing the idea in there as a compromise between a one state solution (disastrous for a Jewish and democratic state...it cant be both demographically), and a two state solution that may require a lot more population transfers, fence building and friction.

As physical geographic neighbors they are all going to end up in living together for eterniity anyway. One day people will be visiting a small preserved section of the fence as a tourist attraction..a bit like the Berlin Wall.

Edited February 13, 2016 by dexterm

[Galactus]

I believe Netanyahu is doing the right thing. Next, he should set up some boots to sell Zoo tickets to make some money maybe. And some high sitting places and here we go a big zoo called Israel!

and nonsense.

yes, i lived close to there and what i see Israelis live just fine apart from some occasional rockets and with the aid coming from USA. I have lots of Israeli friends in the Israeli Army doing their mandatory service and they hate all moments of it.

Most Israelis that i know all hate this war and hate Israeli government too. I met with many really nice Israelis running from the mandatory army as they believe it is not their war.

Moreover, most army personal at the front lines are either Arab Israelis or Russian migrated during last two decades(which most lied with fake documents and are not real Jew too)

And yes, Israel plays a dangerous game by annexing the land does not belong to them.

and what does it mean 'do you get what Muslims are' and whats is the view of that religion? (it is almost racist IMO and i believe you aint know any s....h...t about any religion including your religion!)

bc their religion never want Israel annihilated. If they want to annihilate Jewish people there, they had a chance to do it for a millennium when there were no USA to protect them.

During Ottoman Empire control, there were no problems there too, just hundred years ago, zero problems between Jew and Muslim there. It all started when bigger imperialist world powers like USA wanted to use poor Jewish people as a lift and as a grip on these lands so there are always some problems and complications around middle east so they can interfere anytime or have right to say more words. wake up.

That you met like-minded Israelis is not surprising. Extrapolating or jumping to conclusions as to them being representative of general public views in Israel, is a bit of stretch.

As to the assertion that most IDF personnel in the font lines are either Arab Israelis or first/second generation Russian immigrants - laughable at best. Same goes for the rosy attempt at pseudo-historical presentation.

oh yeah? just an example:

meet with muslim ////ing bedouin 'Mohammed Ka'abiya'! Israeli front line soldier!:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3362369/Are-Israel-s-bravest-soldiers-Meet-Sunni-Muslim-Arabs-fight-line-unbreakable-blood-pact.html

information i provided are from Israelis living there, i am not sure are you living there now or if you hold another citizenship, bc if you are for example a US citizenized Jew for example, you are US citizen. so your info might not be correct.

regarding the sentiments of Israeli people i meet all the time. Is it coincidence that 90 percent of them hate Israeli politics, politicians and Netenhayu?

of course, there were some Israeli guys hanging from a truck in Koh Phangan cursing and shouting around '...c..k muslim, f...c...k Palestine!"

so sure there are realists already woken up and there are fascist among Israelis. hope you are at woken up side but i dont think so.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Galactus