Nok Air plane nearly hits hospital building

[emanon]

The safest navigation for many small airports in Thailand can only be reached by visual sight.(take off / landing)

Special in mountainous areas in the North, where the weather conditions can change any minute, strong winds, fog, smog or combination of this 3 facts.

My deepest respect for the Thai pilots, they are artists

[The Fat Controller]

There are 2 approaches available at Mae Sot, one is using the VOR/DME and the other the NDB.

They are non-precision approaches and neither provides vertical guidance.

Nobody actually seems to know at what height the go-around was initiated, but the Minimum Descent Height (depending on terrain) is usually around 400-600 feet, can't find the actual chart !

As usual with this kind of incident, the lack of FACTS leads to much speculation and ill-informed comments.

BTW, I am an ATCO

[aussiandrew]

Thanks guys for reminding me about some of tails of landing in Thailand.So for the record, if you don't hear from me after tomorrow evening (Fridays) landing at Swampy well you know you know....!!! See you all on the dark side.

[mutha289]

According to World Aero Data Mae Sot has no ILS. However if anything I would expect any pilots operating into that field to pay close attention to visibility requirements before they commit to a landing. http://worldaerodata.com/wad.cgi?id=TH24734&sch=VTPM

[kolohe]

There are 2 approaches available at Mae Sot, one is using the VOR/DME and the other the NDB.

They are non-precision approaches and neither provides vertical guidance.

Nobody actually seems to know at what height the go-around was initiated, but the Minimum Descent Height (depending on terrain) is usually around 400-600 feet, can't find the actual chart !

As usual with this kind of incident, the lack of FACTS leads to much speculation and ill-informed comments.

BTW, I am an ATCO

Spot on.

There are too many factors and not enough data to even begin speculation, but then again that's what the public loves to do. They could have been anywhere on any of those approaches or not on an instrument approach at all (even though they probably should have been). If it was just smoke being reported it is also possible they thought they could get in visually and that plan fell apart somewhere along the way and they tried to make it work. If smoke is the only condition in the area you can sometimes have weather reports of high/no ceilings and reported visibility at the airport that would lead some to try a visual approach. This could lead to the aircraft getting into an area of poor visibility away from the airport.

Without the ATIS or other reported weather and the aircraft position and configuration information we'll never know what actually happened and everything is just a guess.

There is a lot of partial information in this thread about aircraft systems and landing systems which leads to a lot of guessing. EGPWS is what has the terrain database added. GPWS monitors radar altimeter height, landing gear, flap position and airspeed. GPWS has 7 modes: excessive descent rate, excessive terrain closure rate, altitude loss after take off or with a high power setting, unsafe terrain clearance, excessive deviation below glideslope, excessively steep bank angle, windshear protection. The Dash-8 they are flying is a modern aircraft and should be equipped with EGPWS, but it really depends on what is required equipment. Anything above that it depends on what the company feels like spending.

That being said, GPWS is not for navigation. It doesn't keep you from getting out of position when flying, it helps to keep you from hitting something before its too late. It is there so that the mistakes you've already made (and haven't fixed) don't lead to an accident. Whether or not the E/GPWS was alerting in this case has no bearing on how the aircraft got out of position in the first place.

ableguy: The correct VASI position is red over white. You'll never get white over red unless you're flying upside-down. Also VASI and PAPI (this airport has PAPI) are meant to transition from an instrument approach to a visual landing. They are to be used to maintain a proper approach path angle once the aircraft is already in position and established on a proper approach path. In which case there would have been no conflict with the hospital.

VOR and VOR/DME approaches are by no means difficult but they are harder than an ILS. NDB approaches can be challenging and are rarely used, usually as a last resort when no other approach is available. They are slowly going by the wayside and being replaced by GPS approaches.

Again, its hard to say if they were on an instrument approach (and if so, which one) or if they were lead down the primrose path trying to find the runway visually. The only thing we do know is that the aircraft was out of position, we just don't know why.

[NeverSure]

Of course the runways and planes have instrument landing equipment. They couldn't operate year around if they didn't. That doesn't mean the pilots were paying any attention or had a clue what they were doing. Obviously he was way off the glideslope and out of sync with the ILS (instrument landing system) but...

If the plane was working properly he would have had alarms going off such as the Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS).

"In the late 1960s, a series of controlled flight into terrain (CFIT) accidents took the lives of hundreds of people. A CFIT accident is one where a properly functioning airplane under the control of a fully qualified and certified crew is flown into terrain, water or obstacles with no apparent awareness on the part of the crew.

Beginning in the early 1970s, a number of studies examined the occurrence of CFIT accidents. Findings from these studies indicated that many such accidents could have been avoided if a warning device called a ground proximity warning system (GPWS) had been used."

Cheers.

if the plane was working properly he would have had alarms going off such as the Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS).

He was coming in to land, was he not.

He had to have descended to below minimums with NO runway in sight. It's also apparent that he was flying with visibility below minimums for VFR. Before the GPWS alarm would go off, he would is supposed to have the runway in sight.

"Runway in sight" is the common term and it can be some of the sweetest words you've ever heard if anything is a bit askew.

I've never been on an instrument approach with another pilot where the first guy to spot the runway didn't say those exact words. Seriously true.

Cheers.

Edited February 11, 2016 by NeverSure

[NeverSure]

Of course the runways and planes have instrument landing equipment. They couldn't operate year around if they didn't. That doesn't mean the pilots were paying any attention or had a clue what they were doing. Obviously he was way off the glideslope and out of sync with the ILS (instrument landing system) but...

If the plane was working properly he would have had alarms going off such as the Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS).

"In the late 1960s, a series of controlled flight into terrain (CFIT) accidents took the lives of hundreds of people. A CFIT accident is one where a properly functioning airplane under the control of a fully qualified and certified crew is flown into terrain, water or obstacles with no apparent awareness on the part of the crew.

Beginning in the early 1970s, a number of studies examined the occurrence of CFIT accidents. Findings from these studies indicated that many such accidents could have been avoided if a warning device called a ground proximity warning system (GPWS) had been used."

Cheers.

You forget the vasi light system which is located at the far end of the runway which gives you your glide slope for a vfr landing, red on white dead on site white on red go ahead.

Any pilot will understand that, and if you cannot see the lights on a vfr (visual flight rules ) landing abort go ifr instrument flight rules.

With all due respect the posters here haven't forgotten the VASI lights but rather are aware that the pilot couldn't see them. VASI lights work only in good forward visibility.

Now I see the pic above and the runway actually has PAPI, not VASI, even though either will work for the purpose intended. PAPI is more precise.

Cheers.

Edited February 11, 2016 by NeverSure

[jacko45k]

Of course the runways and planes have instrument landing equipment. They couldn't operate year around if they didn't. That doesn't mean the pilots were paying any attention or had a clue what they were doing. Obviously he was way off the glideslope and out of sync with the ILS (instrument landing system) but...

If the plane was working properly he would have had alarms going off such as the Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS).

"In the late 1960s, a series of controlled flight into terrain (CFIT) accidents took the lives of hundreds of people. A CFIT accident is one where a properly functioning airplane under the control of a fully qualified and certified crew is flown into terrain, water or obstacles with no apparent awareness on the part of the crew.

Beginning in the early 1970s, a number of studies examined the occurrence of CFIT accidents. Findings from these studies indicated that many such accidents could have been avoided if a warning device called a ground proximity warning system (GPWS) had been used."

Cheers.

Who said they have ILS ?

Do they have it.

Was it functioning.

Did the pilot and ATC heed it.

There is a 'NO' up there somewhere.

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

Well done the pilot, but I suppose if you are going to be in a crashing plane, best to hit a hospital.

An Emergency landing into the Emergency Room has benefits: 1) Bypass the queue 2) Skip the annoying insurance question. 3) Free incense lighting for merit making.

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

Everyone should sue for new undies..

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

Thanks guys for reminding me about some of tails of landing in Thailand.So for the record, if you don't hear from me after tomorrow evening (Fridays) landing at Swampy well you know you know....!!! See you all on the dark side.

Or not see you...

[Chao Lao Beach]

And peopole here think MaeSot have a ILS, get a grip/

[Robbie Dye]

Maybe the pilot was a General?!

[geriatrickid]

There are no reports filed for this "event"

Either this event did not occur as reported, or Thailand has not released the information.

Honestly, I have a feeling this a BS story. Go arounds are nothing unusual and it is not unusual for pax with limited training or experience to misinterpret events.

[CoreanoOzzie]

These Asian bucket airlines are a bloody nightmare.

Nok's been good every time I've flown them.

[oldsailor35]

Pilot is "asending plane" passengers "go panic" did they all jump out ?

[oldsailor35]

Well done the pilot, but I suppose if you are going to be in a crashing plane, best to hit a hospital.

possibly the best location would be a cemetery

News flash ! Light aircraft has crashed into Irish cemetery. Rescue crews working through the night have so far recovered one hundred and two bodies.

[oldsailor35]

Imagine how the passengers on board felt at that moment. Definitely not something to joke about..

According to media "They Panicked"

[scorecard]

There are no reports filed for this "event"

Either this event did not occur as reported, or Thailand has not released the information.

Honestly, I have a feeling this a BS story. Go arounds are nothing unusual and it is not unusual for pax with limited training or experience to misinterpret events.

Point taken.

I haven't noticed any media release etc., from the airline. Sorry if I missed it.

Although a general rule of PR work is to not make too much comment, or sometimes no comment at all, perhaps with this 'incident' it would be in their best interests to make a quick (but honest) comment aimed at damage control of their reputation.

[The Fat Controller]

Never Sure, what you say about descent below minima is pure SPECULATION.

At no time does the pilot have to be following VFR rules, he just has to transition to a visual landing at the end of the instrument approach.

On his first approach he was not in a position to do the above, if in fact he was doing the VOR/DME or NDB approaches.

The calls in the cockpit, would be "minimums" followed by either "visual, landing" or "going around"

He may have gone visual earlier, then lost sight of the runway as he descended into the haze/smoke.

GPWS could have been an issue.

We can all speculate ad infinitum, but unless a report is raised and an investigation published we shall never know the facts

At the end of the day, he threw away a bad approach, repositioned and landed off the subsequent one.

The perception of what happened from the self-loading freight and those on the ground is always skewed to the "near disaster" scenario, but there wasn't one !

[Chicog]

There are no reports filed for this "event"

Either this event did not occur as reported, or Thailand has not released the information.

Honestly, I have a feeling this a BS story. Go arounds are nothing unusual and it is not unusual for pax with limited training or experience to misinterpret events.

The last time I had one was in CNX (on a clear day). The pilot told us it was because an aircraft was slow clearing the runway.

I don't think anyone was too bothered.

[JulianLS]

Of course the runways and planes have instrument landing equipment. They couldn't operate year around if they didn't. That doesn't mean the pilots were paying any attention or had a clue what they were doing. Obviously he was way off the glideslope and out of sync with the ILS (instrument landing system) but...

If the plane was working properly he would have had alarms going off such as the Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS).

"In the late 1960s, a series of controlled flight into terrain (CFIT) accidents took the lives of hundreds of people. A CFIT accident is one where a properly functioning airplane under the control of a fully qualified and certified crew is flown into terrain, water or obstacles with no apparent awareness on the part of the crew.

Beginning in the early 1970s, a number of studies examined the occurrence of CFIT accidents. Findings from these studies indicated that many such accidents could have been avoided if a warning device called a ground proximity warning system (GPWS) had been used."

Cheers.

ILS does not necessarily mean the capablity for fully automatic landing (CAT IIIc ILS). This is a small airport, that only operates in daytime hours, so it is unlikely to have CAT III ILS. If not category IIIc, then at the decision height, the pilot still has to have a visual on the runway (or the landing approach lighting system, though smaller airports might not have that) or MUST go around. More likely this was a CAT I or II landing. In which case the ILS is only going to take him to a point where he should be able to see the threshold.

It seems like he was on the wrong vector, rather than below the glide slope, in which case the GPWS may not alarm. GPWS cannot predict an upcoming hospital buidling! He may have been at the right height for the approach, just in the wrong place! (ie horizontal drift, not necessarily vertical drift from the glide slope).

Most concerning here is that the pilots seem to be below the decision height without having eyeballed the runway. As such, they should have gone around way before getting low enough to hit the hospital buidling!

Edited February 12, 2016 by JulianLS

[JulianLS]

And peopole here think MaeSot have a ILS, get a grip/

Mae Sot Airport has a NDB, and VOR-DME for ILS.

[The Fat Controller]

Guys and girls, THERE IS NO ILS AT MAE SOT, so no CAT 1, 2 or 3 approaches !

The NDB approach only provides lateral guidance.

The VOR/DME approach provides lateral and distance guidance.

NEITHER provide vertical guidance.

JulianLS, an ILS is completely different from a VOR/DME, both in equipment and type of approach.

http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Precision_Approach

http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Non-Precision_Approach

Edited February 12, 2016 by The Fat Controller

[natway09]

Once upon a time all small airfields only VFR. Nothing unsafe about that as long as the pilot (s) know their job & do not hesitate to abort

after 2 attempts & go elsewhere without being subject to peer pressure for doing so.

[F4UCorsair]

Of course the runways and planes have instrument landing equipment. They couldn't operate year around if they didn't. That doesn't mean the pilots were paying any attention or had a clue what they were doing. Obviously he was way off the glideslope and out of sync with the ILS (instrument landing system) but...

If the plane was working properly he would have had alarms going off such as the Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS).

"In the late 1960s, a series of controlled flight into terrain (CFIT) accidents took the lives of hundreds of people. A CFIT accident is one where a properly functioning airplane under the control of a fully qualified and certified crew is flown into terrain, water or obstacles with no apparent awareness on the part of the crew.

Beginning in the early 1970s, a number of studies examined the occurrence of CFIT accidents. Findings from these studies indicated that many such accidents could have been avoided if a warning device called a ground proximity warning system (GPWS) had been used."

Cheers.

if the plane was working properly he would have had alarms going off such as the Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS).

He was coming in to land, was he not.

I'm guessing, but I'd say that Mae Sot doesn't have an Instrument Landing System. It would be difficult to justify it for so little traffic.

For those not in the know, ILS is not a generic name for any instrument approach. It's a precision approach that gives precision guidance in horizontal and vertical planes. Non Precision Approaches require interpretation of vertical requirements.

Non Precisioin Approaches don't always line the aircraft up with the runway, so a missed approach can look as though the aircraft is heading the wrong way, as opposed to an ILS missed approach is almost always on the runway heading (direction).

The press always like an aviation beat up, so knocking the top off the hospital would seem, to the ignorant, like an attention grabbing headline.

No GPWS warnings in 'landing configuration' (landing gear down, flaps extended) if he intended landing, and one might presume from the article that he was.

It seems that, like the press, there are a lot of armchair experts when it comes to aviation, not unlike tapping a keg!! Google won't give you the answers, certainly not reliable answers.

Edited February 12, 2016 by F4UCorsair

[F4UCorsair]

I was too slow in editing my post above, and should have included....

Google won't give you the answers, certainly not reliable answers, unless you have some knowledge, and know what you're looking for.

A good example of that is sandgroper's post........if the plane was working properly he would have had alarms going off such as the Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS).

He was coming in to land, was he not.

If GPWS is not inhibited in the landing configuration, the crew would be driven mad by warnings all the way to touchdown. They're designed to be irritating to get the message through, when required.

Edited February 12, 2016 by F4UCorsair

[The Fat Controller]

F4UCorsair, TAWS (EGPWS) which was probably fitted to this newish aircraft DOES provide warnings in landing configuration.

Info is in the "No Warning" paragraph.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_proximity_warning_system

PS. It's a long time since I was an approach controller or private pilot, I only do AREA CONTROL now, but the searching through numerous web pages to find the answers has enhanced and refreshed my knowledge, I have also got some questions for the FlyBe Dash8 pilots this afternoon !

Edited February 12, 2016 by The Fat Controller

[BuriramDevelopers]

hahah TIT, the smog of burning almost created a crash. Would these farmers ever realize? This whole burning thing is a pest. Ridiculous idea, some Thais make fires next to an airport and not really anybody cares.....

[dirtycash]

i flew with nok air to udon thani recetly, near sH*T my pants when it landed with a thump on runway........seriously even the thais were screaming.

Edited February 13, 2016 by dirtycash